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  #51  
Old 02-28-2011, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by azasadny View Post
Wow! Your 4506 looks like a .45 version of my 3913, quite a bit different grip-wise than my 645...
It's basically a long barreled 3913...on steroids.
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  #52  
Old 02-28-2011, 10:49 PM
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Shawn,

That rule is particularly with 1911s. Doesn't apply so much to 3rd gen Smiths. My Shorty 45s (3 3/4 inch barrels) will feed everything from ball to an empty case. My experience is not at all unique.


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  #53  
Old 02-28-2011, 11:20 PM
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It seems in this thread some are skeptical about the reliability of the short barreled .45s, such as the 4516, etc.. I've carried a 4516-1 on-duty and have never had a malfunction of any sort. We issue 230 gr. Speer Gold Dot and use many brands of 230 gr. ball for practice...never had a problem. We even shot up a bunch of donated Winchester underpowered 185 gr. LSW match ammunition and I've never had a problem, whereas the 1911s haven't been so problem free.

My only advice to those using the 4516s is when your factory recoil springs wear out replace them with the 19# Wolff springs as they work extremely well.

I wouldn't be afraid to carry a short .45 3rd gen. I've got two search warrants planned tomorrow and I'll be carrying one without any worries whatsoever.

Last edited by Leiden; 02-28-2011 at 11:23 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #54  
Old 03-01-2011, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CALREB View Post

The most common problem with the 4516 is failure to feed. face it you can only make a spring that a few inches long so powerfull, double spring whatever, the slide functions so fast that the mag spring cant keep up.

then add that the gun is lighter, shorter grip etc, the alloy frame guns are worse, 1911, 4516, whatever make. If you are standing, 2 hand hold, concentrating on your grip you can make them function pretty well.

then change to bailing out of a car, combat situation, slightly loose grip, tired mag spring, etc and you have a problem, .45s were meant to be a med to large size pistol not micro or mini.
I am not trying to set up an arguement here, but the above makes sense in real world police shootings.

I teach cadets that up close, they may not have time to line up sights, they may have to shoot from unconventional positions, and to avoid just standing there.

I have carried a Colt Officer's ACP 3.5 on plain clothes duty for roughly 3+ years. On the range this gun has performed flawlessly with standard two hand or one hand alternate side (firm grip). the factory Kings 2 piece recoil spring are a GRIZZLEY BEAR to manipulate with my dehorned slide and requires a strong grip.

Uniform carry is a 5" 1911 style pistol.

While the OACP is an easy carry for plain clothes...based on the experiences by these SIS officers who have experienced gun fire while performing their LE duties....

I want every advantage on my side and want to minimize any shortcomings of a short slide semi auto while in unconventional positions.

we can train for proficiency and muscle memory, but when the need arises, I want the mechanics of the gun to work 100% of the time in all positions.

Yeah, we are talking what ifs, however I have been eyeballing a 4.25" Smith E Series.....now to convince the wife.

In training, I have experienced several misfires with a G21 and ball ammo. I cannot recall the exact mishap...but was told it was likely from limp wrist. I was probably shooting fast strings and softened up a tad and since Glock are lighter weight, they are more prone to limp wristing malfunctions.

I have shot countless rounds with a 4" and 5" semis with no malfunctions in various positions and I am leaning on parking the Officers as a back up in my bag to a Commander length gun for plain clothes carry.

again, my two cents....but I take the word of those who have been there.

Last edited by SW CQB 45; 03-01-2011 at 01:14 AM.
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  #55  
Old 03-02-2011, 01:48 AM
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With the West Virginia State Police staying with the 4566's maybe S&W will start up production to all on the 4566 line again. I would love a run of 4506's too, but at least the 4566 is a start!
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  #56  
Old 03-03-2011, 02:15 PM
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I won't try and second guess those gents who have seen the elephant with the 4516. I have had several years of experience with S&W 3rd gen 45's with barrel lengths under 4", so I will share some of my thoughts on the S&W "shorty" 45's.

Fortunately, the two times I've "been there" - I've not had to "done that". Both times were with a sixgun anyway.

Like Leiden, I've qualified with and carried the 4516-3 on/off duty. As many of you who have read about my experiences with the 4516 will know - probably ad nauseum - my 4516-3 is the only 3rd generation pistol I've had to malfunction.

The first malfunction - a few years back, was a mechanical parts failure. The MIM mag catch snapped during an IDPA match. The 4516 WAS STILL FUNCTIONAL and could be fired using the old "teacup" hold. I finished the stage with it, and switched to my 4513TSW back-up.

I replaced that MIM mag catch with a forged steel 4566 mag catch. Despite the rantings of the MIM defenders I see MIM as the cost cutting/profit generating/cheap pot metal junk that it is. Ever notice even the most vociferous MIM defenders always say; "MIM is <insert your favorite percentage>% as strong as forged parts!" Notice that they never claim MIM is "100% as strong as forged parts". I noticed that too.

At the last qualification I requalified with the 4516-3 for on/off duty again. During the day/off duty portion, while firing Winchester Ranger 230 grain RA45T, I started to experience a failure to feed on the sixth round in the mag. TAP RACK back in the game. Troubled me though as I had never had a malfunction before.

The 4516-3 wasn't very dirty, was properly lubed, and had less than 1000 rounds on the dual recoil spring. I figured it was a mag problem. A quick run through the SRT "playground" confirmed it. One mag had a spring weak enough that the slide was out running the mag - at the sixth round up.

I've not had any failures with my 4513TSW's or PC Shorty 45. I've shot IDPA games with the 4513TSW's. While not training, IDPA does provide good gun handling practice. While its not "for real" - adrenaline coming out of your ears - shoot for serious, it does present unusual shooting positions and in my case quite a few less than perfect draws/grips.

I've also shot the 4516-3 in the IDPA games and not experienced a malfunction - other than that already discussed.

I think the early 4516's - the no dash variants were more susceptable to malfunctions than the later variants. Improvements in the magazines (followers & springs) the beefier slide (cured the slide inertia problem) and the switc to dual recoil spring set-up made for a reliable shorty 45.

Switching from the factory OEM grips to Hogue makes a vast difference, to me, in the handling of the 4516 as well. Even newbs have failed to experience a stoppage while shooting my Hogue gripped 4516-3. This is a pistol that is less susceptable to limp wristing than other short 45's, IMO of course.

I am most appreciative of the LAPD guys sharing their experiences with us here on this board. Nothing like real life experiences to show you what can/will may happen "out there".

I will continue to carry the 4516 and other short 45's when conditions call for it and WILL be mindful of my recoil springs and mag springs too! Regards 18DAI.
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  #57  
Old 04-01-2011, 05:03 AM
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I wonder how many LAPD Officers have switched back to the 4506? It seems that they are getting hard to find!
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  #58  
Old 04-01-2011, 10:53 AM
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when i was still a workiong police i carried a sig 220 as an off duty gun and was very happy with it. now fast forward to retirement, a beautiful thing by the way, i have a shorty 45 ,aka 4513 , on layaway at the shop i work part time. listening to the comments i wthink i will be happy shooting it and even carrying it
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Old 04-01-2011, 02:33 PM
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When I joined the Sheriff's Department in 1993, we had to provide our own guns. I chose the 4566 as it was already approved for carry. I stayed with that gun until "forced" to go to the Glock 21 in 2000 (as a command officer, I could have continued to carry the 4566, but the Sheriff, who was really a nice guy as well as a professional law enforcement officer, thought that the command officers should lead by example). Most of the other deputies that carried a .45 carried either a 4506 or Ruger P90 (I was the only deputy that carried a 4566). Since the first autoloader I carried as a LEO was a S&W M39, I always carried with the safety ON. I felt comfortable, and not the least bit encumbered, with the "proprietary" safety.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:54 PM
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Man I had no idea this thread was still going.You guys should keep pumping 1/74 he is way too modest about his expertise.John was also a swat team member for years before SIS and holds a couple black belts with high degrees if Im not wrong. One day he should do a book it would be as good as Cirillo's. John Lisa says hi!
To answer 18's question,we never allowed any aftermarket parts that the manufacturer didnt approve.So all springs were factory springs ,sometimes we did action jobs on the guns (reliability package)S&W called it but that was ok'd by S&W as we were all trained armorers and everything was kept within factory specs.
The main reason for this was liability issues that could arise if their was a problem with a gun or a shooting. Now we do nothing to the guns because of those same issues. Hogue grips have always been approved ,Yes Guy Hogue was an LAPD armorer ,the last in a long line of LAPD gripmakers Stark ?/ Farrant,Hurst,Hogue if Im not mistaken all great fellows, from what Ive been told,John Hurst(olympic shooter)and Mr Hogue were always great to LAPD guys.
About the S&W 45s and springs I know this from servicing thousands,the full size guns recoil spring is massively overbuilt and very seldom if ever needs to be replaced unless something is wrong with it (bent,nicked etc). So if you have a feed problem with these models ,look to the mags.The 4566/63, once that spring takes a 1/2 inch set or more it needs to be replaced.How soon depends on how hot the ammo you are shooting is (wear on the spring) normally 4-500 rds a year qualifying and training days,gun never gets too hot every 4-5 years. If you shoot alot,remember heat effects the metal in the spring 500 rds a day for a week ,I would check the spring.
The smaller guns have been covered, for a duty gun ,I would change it once a year or more if I shot it alot.
Another thing with the .45, look at your rounds, I discovered looking at duty ammo turned in after qual(we issue new ammo every six months) lots of the rounds would be shorter than normal.We all load and unload our guns alot,for administrative purposes.Normal officers think nothing of it but that round in the chamber and the first round in the mag get changed back and forth.The round in the chamber is ok but if that first round in the mag has the bullet setback and is shortened it may cause a feeding problem.The ogive of the bullet needs to strike the feedramp at a certain spot and angle and timing sequence for the gun to function at a premium.So replace those rounds or put them in the bottom of the last mag or whatever every so often.WHEW, I havnt typed this much since my last travel request.
Some of this stuff is my own thoughts and that of guys I work with so take it for what value you can and good luck bob
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  #61  
Old 04-01-2011, 06:23 PM
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This thread does my heart good. I'm glad to see the 45 Smith's highly lauded as they should be. I've said it on this forum no less than twice before and so say I again that the 4506 I have has been the best 45 by any manufacturer I've ever had-bar none. No other pistol I've owned in this caliber(or any other) has been as reliable as the 4506. Now going on it's 21st birthday since I bought it, I relish it more than i did when I first bought it in Spring 1990. If I could find another like it that was in the condition mine is, I'd scarf it up in a heart beat.

This looks just like my first 4506, bought when I worked for the Great Lakes, IL police department back in the '80s. We carried Ruger .38s with 200-grain military ball ammo on duty, but off duty it was our choice, and I chose the 4506. Carried well and shot better than I did. When I left law enforcement in '91 I sold it to another officer, who carried it on his part-time job for years. Now my only 3rd gen is a 4586 that I just picked up from another forum member. They are some of the best .45s out there.
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Old 04-14-2011, 04:14 AM
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Great info would love to hear more on the 4506's in use with LAPD and from 1/74SIS!!
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  #63  
Old 04-14-2011, 10:22 AM
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I have obtained a 4586 that I believe was a police trade in. I haven't had a chance to take it to the range and was wondering if anyone has experience with this gun. Any issues out there on this one? I started off with a 5946 and had to go to Glock years later. This is the first thread I've read cover to cover in a long time. Thanks.
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Old 04-14-2011, 03:01 PM
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I have had my 4506 since NIB over twenty-years ago. In all that time, it has devoured everything (even my shoddy hand-loads) with no memorable history of problems. It's cycled literally tens of thousands of rounds, and I have NEVER replaced a single thing. Not even the recoil spring has tired. Just amazing.

The ONLY complaint I have with my pistol is that there is a glaring manufacturing defect with the front of the slide. In the recessed front, ahead of the dust cover (not sure the proper term, to be honest) one side has noticeably deeper machining marks then the other side. I'll have to post a picture when I get the chance. It has no affect on performance, but someone at S&W quality should be ashamed of themselves for their lack of attention back in the day...
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Old 04-15-2011, 01:29 PM
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My 4506 i bought new in 1990, sent it to Robar for NP3 carried it for 10 years or so then went the plastic route and recently just switched back to my 4506. After a complete re-spring job, a new trigger since original had some hairline cracks, and 5 new mags, XS Big Dot sights. planning on carrying until i retire.

Stainless has held up very well especially with the Robar NP3 finish.

Just added a CS-45 that just arrived from Birdsongs with the Green-T Finish.





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  #66  
Old 04-15-2011, 04:17 PM
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[QUOTE=SemperFuzz;135917202]My 4506 i bought new in 1990, sent it to Robar for NP3 carried it for 10 years or so then went the plastic route and recently just switched back to my 4506. After a complete re-spring job, a new trigger since original had some hairline cracks, and 5 new mags, XS Big Dot sights. planning on carrying until i retire.

Stainless has held up very well especially with the Robar NP3 finish.

Just added a CS-45 that just arrived from Birdsongs with the Green-T Finish.



Would you recommend the NP3 finish? I was curious how that works/looks applied over the bead blasted original finishes.

Do they smooth out the finish or does it end up looking pretty much like the original with a different tone?

I am contemplating the Factory refinish as well, but was curious about how the 3rd gen Smith takes the finish.

Thanks for the pics and any input.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sneather View Post
I have had my 4506 since NIB over twenty-years ago. In all that time, it has devoured everything (even my shoddy hand-loads) with no memorable history of problems. It's cycled literally tens of thousands of rounds, and I have NEVER replaced a single thing. Not even the recoil spring has tired. Just amazing.

The ONLY complaint I have with my pistol is that there is a glaring manufacturing defect with the front of the slide. In the recessed front, ahead of the dust cover (not sure the proper term, to be honest) one side has noticeably deeper machining marks then the other side. I'll have to post a picture when I get the chance. It has no affect on performance, but someone at S&W quality should be ashamed of themselves for their lack of attention back in the day...
Please post those pics. My 4506 has some machining issues, mainly in the frame, where the dustcover meets with where the recoil spring guide goes into, right next to where the slide contacts the frame. That area where they have that little recess, the left side looks to spec, the right side looks like someone slipped!

So different than my much newer 5906. Difference between CNC and non-CNC?? I'll see if I can get some pics of the area in my pistol.

Note though that I'm not complaining...just wondering if you're guns issue is the same as mine.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:56 PM
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My first year production Model 645 I had customized by Final Option Enterprises. Black stainless finish, reshaped frame, trigger guard, hammer, single side safety, with 3 dot Novak sights added, and a 3rd generation Model 4516 slide fitted to it as a concealed carry option.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:07 PM
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Please post those pics. My 4506 has some machining issues, mainly in the frame, where the dustcover meets with where the recoil spring guide goes into, right next to where the slide contacts the frame. That area where they have that little recess, the left side looks to spec, the right side looks like someone slipped!

So different than my much newer 5906. Difference between CNC and non-CNC?? I'll see if I can get some pics of the area in my pistol.

Note though that I'm not complaining...just wondering if you're guns issue is the same as mine.
I'll snap some pictures just as soon as possible. I've been meaning to show the hand-refinish on the flats, anyway. That will tell the whole story about the wonky machining on mine.
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:13 AM
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Since purchasing my barely used 4566, I have run no less than 1000 rounds through the firearm at the range (ouch, that's getting pricey!) with no problems whatsoever-even with sloppy cleaning methods. (no full takedown when cleaning)

Two of my other guns are in the shop after similar high volume shooting-the stainless 4566 'energizer bunnied' both of them.
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:17 PM
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First and foremost let me thank all the forum members that have contributed to this thread, especially 1/74SIS. This may be a bit of a rabbit trail for this particular thread, but here goes. I have been a dedicated .40 cal shooter for over ten years and have been able to restrain myself regarding the .45s. Yeah I know, what was I thinking. After reading and re-reading this thread twice and having a certain fondness for stainless Smith autos, I cannot resist the urge any longer. Given the 4506 appears to be near full size with a 5" barrel and the 4566 is closer to my 4006 in barrel length, I'm thinking I'd like to acquire one of each. Now the question. Of the various iterations of both of these models, are there any particualar dash models to be avoided, or will any no dash, -1, -3, etc. serve me well. Use will be target, farm carry, and home protection. Thanks for your keen insights and willingness to share your experiences.
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:34 PM
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I wish I had some super experience to highlight the S&W 3rd Generation 45XX series, but I really don't. I work for an agency you probably read about on occasion in even the smallest local newspapers across the county, but that doesn't really add anything to the S&W experience as we authorized many different pistols.

I've carried a 4506-1, 4516-1 and 4563TSW for a while...a while in the rain, in the mud, in the blowing sand, inside a trash dumpster, on high risk stops, in an entry stack, and shoved down the back of my jeans while scared to death. In all cases I've had complete confidence in any of them and have learned what they do really well and what not so well (in my experience at least).

4506-1

This my uniform and anything other than concealed plain clothes carry pistol. I've learned it'll feed anything I can shove in the magazine and will hand cycle empty cases with equal enthusiasm as live rounds/dummy rounds. The 4506-1 will easily keep pace with the custom Kimber 1911s we use for the tactical team, but in my opinion is much more reliable. It is very easy to maintain and reliable to a fault. It's heft is comforting when it's out and stands out at night when pointed at a person intent on doing you harm. I prefer the traditional double action to single action only and like the simplicity of drawing and firing, without having to push a button or flip a switch. As a side note, the 4506s have been around so long and have made such an impression that they tend to command respect and have a following in their own right quite separate from the person carrying it. To illustrate this I've seen on multiple occasions where the deputy/officer carrying the 4506 gets the immediate attention of the average citizen or older officer as they recognized it as being different than the common plastic pistols found on LE use.

4516-1
I've carried his pistol for years in plain clothes use and everything I just said about the 4506-1 pertains to it as well. It's basically a Colt Officer's Model that works all the time and doesn't require a switch being flipped to turn it on. I have found in the -1 model the 19# Wolff springs work best when the factory springs wear out. I've added a spurred hammer to it to make it a "mini-4506" and I love the fact that it's the same manual of arms and I don't have to re-think what I'm doing.

4563TSW
I recently switched to this pistol for concealed carry, non-uniform use and it has all the same attributes as the 4506-1 and 4516-1, but with a significant weight reduction. I've found the extra recoil isn't hard to overcome, but the pistol doesn't look as "traditionally pure" as the 4506-1 and 4516-1 if that makes sense. While I love it and use it daily, I could live without the big billboard "45 Tactical" on the side.

I don't have any cool stories to share specifically related to the 45XX series, but I can say I've shot them muddy, sweaty, bloody, inside a building, outside, with a gas mask on and off, rested and exhausted, and without exception each and every one hasn't failed to put the round where the front sight goes, and do it repeatidly until the magazine was empty or replaced with a fresh one.

The 45XX series does get attention from others in uniform...some wonder why the "boat anchor" is still around and go back to playing with their Kimbers and plastic guns, and some look at it and silently knod figuring you carry it for a reason (cause you will stand out) and respectfully want to find out what you know that they don't.

All in all, having complete freedom to carry something else, I won't.

If I could have one wish though, I'd like to have a 4506-1 with a CHP-style integral rail...that would be nice to have.

If you get a chance to buy one, don't hesitate. If you can get a 4516-2 insead of a -1 I'd do that as recoil springs are much easier to find.

If you're wondering what the 45XX series doesn't do well that would be answered by it's weight. The 4506-1 and 4516-1 aren't light pistol. They aren't too big to carry concealed, but of you're the kind of guy that wears shorts and a small belt there are better choices (the 4563TSW). I'm 6'02 and 220 pounds and feel like I can easily carry any of them easily and find a proper belt and holster take away any excuses.

I have never regretted buying a S&W 45XX and when younger LE look at it and roll their eyes, I don't hold it against them when they eventually ask to borrow it and then ask "Does Safariland make a duty holster?"

Get one if you can, be glad if you already have one, and if you're required to carry plastic on-duty, well, there are those of us out there who understand.

One last thing....holsters.

If I could recommend anything to guys who are starting out with the 45XX series for LE use, it would be to realize SIG P228/P229 holsters fit the 4516-1, P226 holsters fit the 4566s and even the 4506s, but the 4506s stick out a quarter inch. Safariland makes duty holsters for all of them and the 4563TSW with a X200 on it fits the Safariland P226 with X200 duty holster. I like the Aker leather holsters as they do a great job for the money. An any given day I carry a 45XX with two spare 8 rd magazines, a S&W 649 and a 5 rd .38 reload in a Safariland Comp1 speedloader (carried in a Safariland Split-Six pouch between my primary gun and badge).

In short, when you think of the 45XX series and are trying to find a holster, look at the SIG holsters as they'll usually fit. If you want a kydex holster for a 45XX I don't think the SIG versions will fit. If you're interested in a 45XX, you're probably not a kydex sort of guy anyways.

By the way, A. E. Nelson leather in Oregon makes outstanding duty gear for the 45XX series. I carry 5 spare magazines plus the one in the pistol and their quad mag pouch carries the magazines easily. S&W 45XX series and black basketweave go hand in hand...but, yes, Safariland makes holsters and so does Bianchi in their Accumold variety.

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Old 04-16-2011, 08:43 PM
squidsix squidsix is offline
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Leiden, hats off to you.
I do not carry one on duty (I'm active duty Navy and carry an M-9 every day) BUT I would not hesitate for a split second if I were able to switch to the 4566 I bought a few years back. The previous owner was Tennessee State Patrol (trade in I bought from Summit) and it is a very smooth and reliable weapon, and although somewhat heavy, it's not nearly unmanageable. I carried a government 1911 for years and never cared about the weight, and this 4566 weighs less.
It's wonderfully accurate, and with a spring change will handle 45 Super loads. It's a fantastic pistol, and I would choose literally nothing else as my duty piece. (and unlike many of my peers, I'm actually a supporter of the M-9 and like it very much)
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:53 PM
Leiden Leiden is offline
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If I could only have one S&W for everything from uniform to UC work it'd be a 4566. In my prayers every night I thank God for the freedom my agency has and ask for a pay raise. If it came to giving up my freedom and getting a raise I'd pass...and that's why I'm here I guess.

Thank you for your service and be confident in your M9. I had an occasion to use one once and don't have any complaints.
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Old 04-16-2011, 09:28 PM
squidsix squidsix is offline
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I've had to use one more than once, and I agree, it's a fine pistol. And it's such total nonsense that it won't run in the sand. What it's won't do is function in the all-too-prevalent environment in the military called NEGLECT.
The 4563 you have has the ugly *** billboard, but a green scrubby and that vanishes. Seriously, it's laser etching, not a rollmark, and it comes right off. My 5903TSW had the same thing and it is a thing of the past.
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:07 PM
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I will have to go buy a green scrubby and take it off.

While many would disagree with me, I respectfully submit a properly lubricated M9 is superior to the S&W 45XX series in reliability. What the S&W 45XX series will do, however, is run well when not properly lubricated.

I find the new law enforcement officers with my agency universally choose the Glock or 1911....an overwhelming amount choose the Glock. For $389 with three magazines they are hard to beat, and they seem to survive the neglect our non-gun, non-hunting, non-prior service, do-the-minimum-acceptable, "this is only a job," type officer is seemingly capable of producing.

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Old 04-17-2011, 12:26 AM
squidsix squidsix is offline
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" non-gun, non-hunting, non-prior service, do-the-minimum-acceptable, "this is only a job," type "
^ this.
I get these guys all the time. "I don't like guns" they say.
"Good thing you're not in the ARMED FORCES" I always tell them.

Back to the S&W: Strangely, the Beretta got me started on 3rd gen Smiths. I love 1911s and revolvers, and because of shooting them I just CAN NOT STOP riding the slide stop with my thumb on basically everything out there that isn't a Beretta or a S&W auto. They are just far enough forward to allow me to place my thumb where the safety would be on the 1911 and NOT ride the slide stop. You know how many times I had failure to slidelock on empty mags with a Sig 228? Maybe a thousand.
I love the controls of the Beretta, especially the "G" model with the decocker-only function. My 4566 has this same feature, and I tried to send my 6906 in for conversion to this feature, but Smith tells me they no longer do it.
I still love 1911s, but to get one that runs like my 92G and 4566 and 6906 AND shoots straight, you have to spend a little over a grand. It cost me more than that to get the Colt I have now and more than that for the Smith Custom Pro I 1911 that I recently grabbed. In fact, I'm trading the Custom Pro I for a Smith 4567 with night sights next week. I could not find a 4563 locally, but the search is on.
sorry for the rambling reply. As I get older I get more loquacious.
Best,
Steve
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:40 AM
Leiden Leiden is offline
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I got started on S&W 3rd gens when I went to a UC/street jump school taught by LEOs/FBI (I think the LEOs were LAPD or ex-LAPD, maybe, but not 100% sure) and they had 4506/4516s. I was amazed they always worked all the time and the idea of putting the safety on and being able to wear it without a holster was fantastic. I didn't realize back then that only good guys wore holsters.

In any case, the 45XXs worked a lot better than my Colt 1911 and was in my mind at least safer to carry.

I also liked the idea of being able to press the mag release and it instantly de-activated the entire pistol...I like that but many don't.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KPSqured View Post
Please post those pics. My 4506 has some machining issues, mainly in the frame, where the dustcover meets with where the recoil spring guide goes into, right next to where the slide contacts the frame. That area where they have that little recess, the left side looks to spec, the right side looks like someone slipped!

So different than my much newer 5906. Difference between CNC and non-CNC?? I'll see if I can get some pics of the area in my pistol.

Note though that I'm not complaining...just wondering if you're guns issue is the same as mine.
As promised. Here are the photos showing the irregular machining on my 4506. This weirdness is literally the only bad thing about the gun. Nothing else is asymmetrical, or otherwise poorly machined. The slide to frame relationship is looser than most Hollywood marriages, but it's always been that way and probably one of the reasons the gun just never jams. You could probably wedge a few rocks in there, and it would keep on shooting. Granted, that sort of sloppy tolerance would piss off most of the members over on the 1911 boards...

My 6906 doesn't have any poorly machined parts. HOWEVER, the starboard side safety rubbed on the thick frame, right out of the box. I just filed that little piece down a little, and that solved it. Odd though. I should someday see if other owners had that same problem.
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:28 PM
Leiden Leiden is offline
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One of my 4506s has the same machining marks as yours. It's never affected function, and I just noticed after seeing your photos. If that is the only fault I can find with the gun I'm OK with it.

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As promised. Here are the photos showing the irregular machining on my 4506. This weirdness is literally the only bad thing about the gun. Nothing else is asymmetrical, or otherwise poorly machined. The slide to frame relationship is looser than most Hollywood marriages, but it's always been that way and probably one of the reasons the gun just never jams. You could probably wedge a few rocks in there, and it would keep on shooting. Granted, that sort of sloppy tolerance would piss off most of the members over on the 1911 boards...

My 6906 doesn't have any poorly machined parts. HOWEVER, the starboard side safety rubbed on the thick frame, right out of the box. I just filed that little piece down a little, and that solved it. Odd though. I should someday see if other owners had that same problem.
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:40 PM
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Indeed. It stopped troubling me about twenty-years ago!
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:47 PM
meh92 meh92 is offline
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What a fantastic thread! I carried a 4586 (department-issued) for the first 7 years of my LEO career up here in NE Ohio. Our duty load was the 230gr Ranger SXT. Sadly, our department switched to fantastic plastic in .40S&W. I bought my 4586 for a fair trade-in price and never regretted it.

While the 4586 was definitely a boat-anchor, it was a supremely-reliable and accurate gun. The only issue I ever had was during the academy when we were shooting at an outdoor facility. The temperature was around 10 degrees that morning and we stood around a burn barrel to keep warm. When it was my turn to shoot the slide would not reciprocate properly, which caused several failures to eject. The oil I was using had nearly frozen in the gun. The rangemaster re-lubed it with Tetra-Oil and the problem was immediately solved. I'd hardly blame the gun for that.

If memory serves me correctly (that was 15 years ago) I had used the oil that came in the old Hoppe's cleaning kits. Since then, the only oils I use on carry guns are Tetra or FP10 and the problem never repeated itself.

Great thread... good memories.
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:58 PM
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About 10 years ago I was at the S&W plant for a tour of the factory. We stopped into the Performance Center shop and one of the men there gave a little talk about the semi-autos, including lubrication. He never once mentioned the use of grease and only spoke about the use of oil for lube.

Bill
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:49 AM
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After reading this post, I went to Shooter's yesterday and ordered the 19LB recoil spring and 5 new 10LB magazine springs. So I will switch out all the springs on the used 4516 I just picked up. I will also clean it up a bit.

I do have a question though, does anyone know where I can get a gold bead front sight for a 3rd gen 45?
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:32 PM
dave williams dave williams is offline
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Great Thread guys!

I work with meh92 and he clued me in on it.

John Helms, meh92 and I have trained with Larry Mudgett a few times in Pittsburgh PA, great training. Hopefully he'll be out this summer for some more training. Thanks much for the info on the SW .45 in LAPD service, very interesting.

I wrote the following blurbs about our old 4586 and 3rg gen SWs in general on different internet gun forums, look at these dates!:

August 30, 2004, 01:48 PM
"I used to have the 4586 as an issue duty gun. I liked it,
and wish I was still allowed to carry it on duty. It had a
lot of nice features: fully dehorned, beveled mag well, big
fixed Novak night sights, undercut trigger guard, serrated front
strap, nice wide grip tang, choice of backstrap configuration,
reliable 8 shot mags, stainless construction, slim and easy to
carry off duty in a custom pancake, and most importantly it shot big bullets. A much better gun,
IMO, than the plastic minor caliber *** they replaced it with."

October 5, 2000, 11:26 AM
"Hello,
I carry a DAO SW4586 daily, on and off duty. It has really grown on me. It has never malfunctioned.
It has some excellent features(factory dehorned, bevelled mag well, front strap serrations, changeable
grip angles, nice wide grip tang, big fixed tritium sights). If you don't like the mag safety, there are
ways to get around it in a tactical reload situation. I would prefer it in an alloy frame, with light mounting
grooves, and this model is available. In my experience, the .45 acp SWs(4506,4566,4586)are very reliable. Note
that LAPD now gives it's officers the .45 acp option in the form of the 4506(I believe the 4566 and 4516 may be
optional). The LAPD show on Discovery Channel shows that these SWs are being carried by a LOT of cops, by their
choice. Chicago gives cops the option of the 4586. On Tactical Forums Home, there is a guy with mucho leo experience from California, and he states that CHP has had excellent results with the 4006, some examples easily going 50k rounds, and also having excellent results with(gasp!) 180gr subsonic
JHPs(W-W, Rem)."

Since then, some 4006s with CHP have gone over 100K rounds! Pretty durable system, and CHP decided to stay with the 4006 in TSW form instead of changing over to another weapon system. Makes alot of sense to me, why not go with a proven gun that all your Troopers are trained on and have leather gear for?

I went to the academy with several Officers who were issued the 4506 and 4566, great guns, worked great for those Officers in training. My issued 4586 was used, and the mag springs were literally half the length of the guys with the new mags. The department supplied me and my partner with new mags and I never had a bobble after that. I used the 4586 to shoot IDPA successfully and also qualed as "Master" on our duty PPC type qual course. It was a very shootable gun. We had a Beamhit system at work that really got me dialed in on the gun. It was a laser installed in the barrel, and you dry fired at various reactive targets throughout a room. You typically would do some PT, use the Beamhit, etc. Really effective training tool.

I had the chance to chat with a WV State Trooper recently. They actually switched from the 4006 to the 4566, one of the only agencies I am aware of to switch from 40 to 45. One of the reasons was to go away from the double stack to reduce the size of the grip for the smaller Troopers IIRC. As you guys know they are getting new 4566s with melonite treatment to replace their standard 4566s. The M&P was not a popular choice with the Troopers in testing evidently.

Interesting to learn that LAPD is giving Officers the option of the Smith .45s again. I certainly wish we had as liberal of a weapons policy as LAPD, and allowed for Officers to have some choice in their duty guns. Oh well glad to have a paycheck.

I am carrying a Gen4 G22 and a Gen3 G27 as BUG, with 165gr full power Gold Dot, pretty good combo I think.

This thread has really got me jonesing for a SW .45 of some sort.

Dave Williams
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:11 PM
meh92 meh92 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dot_mdb View Post
About 10 years ago I was at the S&W plant for a tour of the factory. We stopped into the Performance Center shop and one of the men there gave a little talk about the semi-autos, including lubrication. He never once mentioned the use of grease and only spoke about the use of oil for lube.

Bill
Not sure if that was aimed at me, but I was using oil... not grease. The oil semi-froze. I still remember that clearly, as well as the reaming I got from the instructor/rangemaster for using whatever oil it was.

Again, good memories!
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by meh92 View Post
Not sure if that was aimed at me, but I was using oil... not grease. The oil semi-froze. I still remember that clearly, as well as the reaming I got from the instructor/rangemaster for using whatever oil it was.

Again, good memories!
You are right. It says oil and my brain probably expected it to say grease.

Bill
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model39 View Post
My first year production Model 645 I had customized by Final Option Enterprises. Black stainless finish, reshaped frame, trigger guard, hammer, single side safety, with 3 dot Novak sights added, and a 3rd generation Model 4516 slide fitted to it as a concealed carry option.
Excuse me but how durable has this finish been for you and how close do you think it is to the robar Blackening finishing they do?
Robar Black Oxide, e-Nickel & Chrome Sulfide Finishes

the reason why I'm asking is because I'm planning on getting a 645 and having the finish redone in one way or another and I kinda like the look yours has going for it there.

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Old 05-01-2011, 10:42 PM
HOUSTON RICK HOUSTON RICK is offline
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4506 is a nice handgun. 1911 has nothing on it. It is so sturdy that you could use it as a club if you run out of ammo. Very little recoil for 45 ACP, even for a newbie.

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Old 05-06-2011, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by HOUSTON RICK View Post

4506 is a nice handgun. 1911 has nothing on it. It is so sturdy that you could use it as a club if you run out of ammo. Very little recoil for 45 ACP, even for a newbie.
Couldn't agree more! I love 1911's to, but the S&W 4506 is probably one of the most reliable 45 pistols out there! Its a shame S&W doesn't offer it or the 4566 anymore except special LE Orders.
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:24 PM
Leiden Leiden is offline
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I'm pleasantly surprised to begin seeing more S&W 3rd Gens in the hands of young LEOs at my agency. I saw a newer baby deputy with a 4006 the other day and asked him why he was carrying that (he didn't see my concealed 4506) and his reply was, "It was either carry German aluminum, Austrian plastic or American steel...I chose American steel."

I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:07 PM
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Not LEO here, but wanted to share something I found on finishes. This is my 4013 (converted to 1013) that I had cerakoted. Amazing finish, extremely tough, and man does it look good Graphic black on top, gun metal gray on bottom, and left trigger, hammer, slide release, decocker and mag release natural S&W.



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Last edited by Bartman3562; 07-24-2011 at 11:10 PM.
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  #93  
Old 07-25-2011, 07:11 AM
TSQUARED TSQUARED is offline
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My S&W 645 has never expereinced any feeding problems even with 185 gr. LSWC's. I also use a S&W 945PC for bullseye psitol and steel plate matches and have recently purchased a full size M&P45.

I have been very favorably impressed with the M&P45. Feeds everything from 185 gr. LSWC;s through various weights of JHP's anf the 230 gr. FMJ without a hiccup. Mine shoots nice tight 10 shot groups at 50 ft. which measure 1 1/4 to 2 inches with chronic regularity. I only wish it had a less gritty factory trigger, more like the S&W 645.
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:04 PM
bama 686 bama 686 is offline
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Originally Posted by ColColt View Post
This thread does my heart good. I'm glad to see the 45 Smith's highly lauded as they should be. I've said it on this forum no less than twice before and so say I again that the 4506 I have has been the best 45 by any manufacturer I've ever had-bar none. No other pistol I've owned in this caliber(or any other) has been as reliable as the 4506. Now going on it's 21st birthday since I bought it, I relish it more than i did when I first bought it in Spring 1990. If I could find another like it that was in the condition mine is, I'd scarf it up in a heart beat.

My buddy is a dealer and has a nice 4506 that could be bought for around $300-$350 most likely.He is in Central,Al.I can put you in touch if you're interested.It's a L.E. marked gun,but can't remember fro what agency.
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  #95  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:11 PM
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I have a 645 and 4506 great guns and enjoy collecting all the steel Smiths but I do have a question if I my ask it hear about my 4506-1 with mag in and hammer coked in single action the trigger creeps about 1/4 " and then I hear a slight click and then it will fire is this click normal due to the mag disconnect or do I have a problem.

Thanks for any advice may not be the correct place to ask this but I have found the thread so interesting I am sure some hear will have an answer.

Thanks
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:29 PM
Leonardo1947 Leonardo1947 is offline
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Default S&W .45

My favorite topic Guns, S&W and .45's. When my department allowed.45's as duty carry I immediately went to class and one of the 1st to carry the 645. I loved it, performed flawlessly. I got burged one night and lost my 2nd true love, the 45 was gone. I went out and got a S&W 457 and was extremely impressed with everything about the handle, weight, trigger pull, sights etc. A little more than a year later I got a call from LAPD, "come and get your gun". WHOA BABY. Some dirt bag stopped for speeding, found a lot of dope, found a lot of small bills and found my STOLEN 45. Can you say enhancement? Poss of drugs, Poss for sale, and poss stolen handgun= 7 years on a second offense. I still love the 457, but im IN love with the 645.

AND a question, I always learned after a mag exchange, hit the slide release. I've watched TOP SHOT and a few other programs and notice the top shooters will put in a new mag and rack the slide back from the locked position. Am I getting old and this is something new? Any opinions offered would be appreciated.
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:41 PM
Leonardo1947 Leonardo1947 is offline
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My favorite topic Guns, S&W and .45's. When my department allowed.45's as duty carry I immediately went to class and one of the 1st to carry the 645. I loved it, performed flawlessly. I got burged one night and lost my 2nd true love, the 45 was gone. I went out and got a S&W 457 and was extremely impressed with everything about the handle, weight, trigger pull, sights etc. A little more than a year later I got a call from LAPD, "come and get your gun". WHOA BABY. Some dirt bag stopped for speeding, found a lot of dope, found a lot of small bills and found my STOLEN 45. Can you say enhancement? Poss of drugs, Poss for sale, and poss stolen handgun= 7 years on a second offense. I still love the 457, but im IN love with the 645.

AND a question, I always learned after a mag exchange, hit the slide release. I've watched TOP SHOT and a few other programs and notice the top shooters will put in a new mag and rack the slide back from the locked position. Am I getting old and this is something new? Any opinions offered would be appreciated.
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  #98  
Old 10-09-2011, 10:23 PM
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AND a question, I always learned after a mag exchange, hit the slide release. I've watched TOP SHOT and a few other programs and notice the top shooters will put in a new mag and rack the slide back from the locked position. Am I getting old and this is something new? Any opinions offered would be appreciated.
many teach this technique as it involves a gross motor movement as opposed to finding the slide stop which may be difficult in a stressful situation.

I say train, train and train. its probably good to know both.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:38 AM
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WOW,,I own both a 645 and a 4566 and thought I knew pretty much what there was to know about the steel .45's. This thread is fantastic and every steel .
45 owner should read,,many thanks to all the contributors.
Don
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:14 AM
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This thread is great, wish S&W would take notice and offer the 4506/4566/645 for sale again!
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