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  #51  
Old 03-02-2011, 02:17 PM
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It's always nice to hear when metal beats plastic.

I wish it happened more often, though.
It's a sad fact that plastic will beat out metal, but metal will OUTLAST plastic
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  #52  
Old 03-02-2011, 02:57 PM
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Of course we will need off duty pistols too.....

So a scandium framed 4516, melonite finish please, oh - and go ahead and make it a 4" even barrel. Don't forget the flat bumper pad for the mags!

Maybe Col Pack could assist us with this request. J.W.? Regards 18DAI.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:36 PM
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I personally would be up for a melonite 4566 with the integral rail, especially if it had the bobed hammer like the WVSP model.
This is the version I want too.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:53 PM
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Of course we will need off duty pistols too.....

So a scandium framed 4516, melonite finish please, oh - and go ahead and make it a 4" even barrel. Don't forget the flat bumper pad for the mags!

Maybe Col Pack could assist us with this request. J.W.? Regards 18DAI.
Oh, that'd be nice...

I wouldn't put it past him!
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:41 AM
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What the heck...I emailed Lew Horton's. I figured it can't hurt.
They said that they don't know at this time. Maybe if more people email them...hint hint
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:16 AM
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Okay, I admit I belong to this site and don't really care for, or keep up with Smith S/Auto guns. As far as I'm concerned I went straight from the best revolver; 4" stainless 686 to the best S/A a Glock 22 in terms of duty guns.

I've held Col. Pack in high regard since I started in 1994 and he was stationed in a neighboring county. From the outside looking in I think he's the best thing that's happened to WVSP in a long time; the first superintendant that isn't a fossil a governor didn't drag out of mothballs from the North end of the state.

While the 45's are good guns I believe that agency wold buy a *** gun if it was a Smith. I came to that belief because I've listened to troops tell me that since they went to semi auto's in 1995. From what I remember they weren't ****, but they were pretty close. I think everyone there was happy to be rid of those. The 45's they're getting rid of aren't very old and they're going to turn them in for practically the same gun. It makes one wonder.

FWIW I believe they've got some Glocks around since they sent a member I know to Glock armorer school; I guess BCI guys got tired of the Sigma's they had and didn't want to run around buying dope armed with a gun covered up with WVSP patches and so forth.

Glad they're getting new guns, while I'm sure most guys will buy their old ones the ones that do wind up on the market should be in good shape with a low round count, probably good guns to pick up if the price is right.
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  #57  
Old 03-04-2011, 02:15 PM
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Okay, I admit I belong to this site and don't really care for, or keep up with Smith S/Auto guns. As far as I'm concerned I went straight from the best revolver; 4" stainless 686 to the best S/A a Glock 22 in terms of duty guns.

I've held Col. Pack in high regard since I started in 1994 and he was stationed in a neighboring county. From the outside looking in I think he's the best thing that's happened to WVSP in a long time; the first superintendant that isn't a fossil a governor didn't drag out of mothballs from the North end of the state.

While the 45's are good guns I believe that agency wold buy a *** gun if it was a Smith. I came to that belief because I've listened to troops tell me that since they went to semi auto's in 1995. From what I remember they weren't ****, but they were pretty close. I think everyone there was happy to be rid of those. The 45's they're getting rid of aren't very old and they're going to turn them in for practically the same gun. It makes one wonder.

FWIW I believe they've got some Glocks around since they sent a member I know to Glock armorer school; I guess BCI guys got tired of the Sigma's they had and didn't want to run around buying dope armed with a gun covered up with WVSP patches and so forth.

Glad they're getting new guns, while I'm sure most guys will buy their old ones the ones that do wind up on the market should be in good shape with a low round count, probably good guns to pick up if the price is right.

You're quite correct, WVSP is quite attached to S&W and from what I've heard, some of it is personal bias. There was some scuttlebutt last year that Glock offered to switch them even for G21SF's (IMO, the best duty sized .45 available) but they wouldn't do it. I can't verify this though.

You're also right about the "old" 4566's still being in good shape. I can tell you that as of last year they were still some guns being issued that were new old stock from '06 as I recall.
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  #58  
Old 03-05-2011, 02:26 PM
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It is rather refreshing to hear that the WVSP is sticking to their Smith .45's! It's nice to know that all steel or even alloy/steel pistols haven't completely been put out to pasture.
And while I can appreciate the Glock for all it's virtues, there is just something comforting about a big, shiny, steel pistol hanging off your belt or tucked in somewhere concealed that speaks volumes.
Plus I'm getting tired of seeing poly guns in every cops holster! Illinois, St.Clair county is practically Glock owned!
Kudos WVSP! Dale
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  #59  
Old 03-06-2011, 02:14 PM
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Default That Great Big Ol' Black .45 Hole....

One thing the Glock .45s can't offer -- which Smith stainless guns can:

That Great Big Ol' Black .45 Hole in what's clearly a hefty, formidable pistol that could mess your head up -- even empty...as opposed to just a black general polymer blob...

Don't forget the fact that many "heavy metal" Smith 3rd Gen .45s are still a weapon when empty...and will still leave an "impression" between the bad guys' eyes when wielded...

Staring down the barrel of a Smith 3rd Gen Stainless .45, one can FULLY appreciate how big a .45 REALLY is...

Not as evident with a general black "shape" -- but a real "standout" against the light, sharp contrast of a big stainless backdrop...even in lower light conditions...

Don't ever discount how intimidating that can be...

With a Smith .45 stainless, you can SEE what you're up against -- with a clearcut visual reminder...
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  #60  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:41 PM
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Default Well, I had to go and do it and I blame y'all for it..

...won me a 4566. And it is everybodys' fault too.
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  #61  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:59 PM
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...won me a 4566. And it is everybodys' fault too.
Without pics, it doesn't exist.
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  #62  
Old 03-06-2011, 11:07 PM
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I saw the bid request on the states purchasing web site a couple weeks ago, will have to check and see what the result was.

Edited....
The spec was for the 4566 or equal, (but any proposed alternate had to use 4566 mags, accessories and have same action!)

S&W bid direct at $780 ea.
A local police supply house bid Glock 21SF's at $469 ea

To date, no contract has been awarded.
I'm a big S&W fan, but the mag issue is just a salesmans way to lock up the contract, all those 10 yr old mags should be rebuilt or tossed anyway.

The WVSP also took bids for 870 Police shotguns and received a bid for Benelli Nova's that was WAY cheaper.

It seems it would be hard to pass the Glock's up, but if the state would have opened the bid spec up S&W could have submitted the M&P's and then you would have had a horse race.
The more restrictive spec with an obligatory "or equal" thrown in there is just a way to make it look like there was an actual competition.
If they were really concerned about tax payer $$, they would go with the Glocks or let S&W bid something other than an older 3rd Gen that is pretty much a custom run at this point.

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  #63  
Old 03-06-2011, 11:21 PM
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Without pics, it doesn't exist.
No prob. Once I get it, pics will be posted.
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  #64  
Old 03-07-2011, 04:35 AM
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If they were really concerned about tax payer $$, they would go with the Glocks or let S&W bid something other than an older 3rd Gen that is pretty much a custom run at this point.
I would think if you added the cost of new holsters, mag pouches and transition training, the costs would be closer. Just my guess
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  #65  
Old 03-07-2011, 01:25 PM
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Default It amazes me!!!!!!!

It amazes me to hear people, in one breath, talking about "older" 3rd pistols -- then making 1911s sound as if they were introduced in 2011.

Nobody in 1911 -- other than maybe Browning himself -- had the insight and foresight to predict the 1911 pistol would still be as popular as it is today. Witness the fact that Browning thought the Hi-Power was his best design..and that it "fixed" what was wrong with the 1911.

4566s -- as well as Smith 10s and others in the 4500 series -- might develop the same fanatical following -- and still be around 100 -- or 200 -- years from now.

As much as I like Glocks -- and I DO like them -- I GENERALLY like Smiths more (although some exceptions do exist).

I still -- and steadfastly -- believe polymer guns -- no matter how tough -- will eventually do what all other polymer seems to do -- which is get brittle and disintegrate.

As for personal "bias" affecting WV's decision, Glock has won contracts with plenty of bias -- historically -- in their own right.

Like it or not, "bias" figures into all human decisions -- even if it boils down to "bias" in deciding off the numbers alone.

For me, I think WV might have actually saved the new 3rd Gen production line -- at least for a while -- and I praise them for it!

(Besides, one day those WV pistols will be on the civilian market....)

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  #66  
Old 03-09-2011, 02:30 AM
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Lets hope the older S&W 4566's will be sold to the public when they get the newer 4566's. Are the pistols issued to the WVA State Police the TSW model or the standard 4566?
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:42 PM
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Lets hope the older S&W 4566's will be sold to the public when they get the newer 4566's. Are the pistols issued to the WVA State Police the TSW model or the standard 4566?

TSW's with Streamlight M3's.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:43 PM
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I am surprised at the seeming support of the Glock 21 over the 4566. I own a 21 and a 1066 and prefer a 45/1066 by a huge margin. Big +1 on hoping to see the trade in 4566TSW's in the market.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:28 AM
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The agency I qualify with issues Glock 21's. Well they did until this year. Now they are supposedly going to a compact 45 for all officers.

I know the last two times I qualified, my 4566 ran flawlessly while there were many malfunctions with the Glock 21's. Speer Gold Dot is their duty round.

The majority of the malfunctions I observed - three pistols out of 14 - were FTE's. One fellow had a couple of double feed jams but IMO he was holding the Glock 21 too low and perhaps limp wristing it as well.

I'm not a fan of the Glock pistols but I do think that every officer who has to stake his life on his duty pistol should have a say in what that pistol is.

I purchased and or shot the Beretta 8045, HK USP 45, Sig 220, Glock 21 and a few 4566's before I chose the 4566 for my duty pistol - once I found out that revolvers would no longer be qualified as duty guns.

The consistant reliability, accuracy and durability made the 4566 a clear choice. Others will prefer other platforms and thats great. Afterall, one size does not fit all. Regards 18DAI.
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Old 03-11-2011, 12:57 PM
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The agency I qualify with issues Glock 21's. Well they did until this year. Now they are supposedly going to a compact 45 for all officers.

I know the last two times I qualified, my 4566 ran flawlessly while there were many malfunctions with the Glock 21's. Speer Gold Dot is their duty round.

The majority of the malfunctions I observed - three pistols out of 14 - were FTE's. One fellow had a couple of double feed jams but IMO he was holding the Glock 21 too low and perhaps limp wristing it as well.

I'm not a fan of the Glock pistols but I do think that every officer who has to stake his life on his duty pistol should have a say in what that pistol is.

I purchased and or shot the Beretta 8045, HK USP 45, Sig 220, Glock 21 and a few 4566's before I chose the 4566 for my duty pistol - once I found out that revolvers would no longer be qualified as duty guns.

The consistant reliability, accuracy and durability made the 4566 a clear choice. Others will prefer other platforms and thats great. Afterall, one size does not fit all. Regards 18DAI.
I love the 8045, but like you, I love the 3rd Gen's better!
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:08 PM
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I am surprised at the seeming support of the Glock 21 over the 4566. I own a 21 and a 1066 and prefer a 45/1066 by a huge margin. Big +1 on hoping to see the trade in 4566TSW's in the market.
I guess its all personal preference but I never loved my 4566. The sole reason is the loooong, heeeaavy DA tigger. (I'm not a fan of the DA/SA system in general though) With tactical gloves I had a hard time getting a good finger position on the trigger. If not for that I'd have loved the gun. I qualified expert with it and could handle the trigger fine if I took my time and concentrated. At 25 yards, I never shot it well and oberved that in my class of around 40 people few could make first shot hit beyond 7-10 yards and none consistently. For me and it appears many people the DA pull is too long and heavy. If it was like my 686 or 25-13 I wouldn't have a complaint.

As for Glocks, there good guns but certainly lack the refinement of the 3rd gen Smiths. For overall comfort and shootability provded I had a choice, but couldn't carry a 1911 I'd pick the 21SF.
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Old 03-12-2011, 01:11 AM
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It's just that feature-wise 3rd Gens were way ahead of their time, in fact only recently are 1911's being touted as "modernized" for having these same features. I post this for those folks who may be reading that are not familiar with the pistols.

Some features:
Serrated front strap, undercut trigger guard, trigger guard checkering, slightly extended slide lock/mag release, ramped barrel, and elongated trigger guard (in fact, I think it is better than my G21 for gloved hands). And a feature that I hear a lot about lately is a short reset trigger. All 3rd Gen features and mine were built around 1990.



I have been extremely lucky with the DA on my 3rd Gens.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:03 AM
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18DAI, you're information is quite correct. WVSP won't be going away from the 4566 at least until Col. T. S. Pack retires. From a conversation I had with him last year he regards the 4566 as the finest pistol he's ever used. ( I didn't and won't disagree with his statement) They flirted around with Glock 21's (which is what the WV DNR is using) and M&P 45's a few years ago but decided to stick with the 4566's.
I just read that the Governor is replacing Col. Pack, do you think this will cancel the 4566's? I hope not, really hoping for S&W to offer some to all of us!
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:51 AM
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I just read that the Governor is replacing Col. Pack, do you think this will cancel the 4566's? I hope not, really hoping for S&W to offer some to all of us!
I really don't know. I heard about this just the other day myself. I don't know anything about the new Superintendent, but I get the impression his is another oldtimer pulled out of mothballs and one to cater to the whims of politicians...
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:38 PM
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I wouldn't fee too bad with either of these-both 45, both very reliable.


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Old 03-19-2011, 03:27 AM
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The 3rd gen Smiths are great guns, I had the pleasure of carrying a brand spanking new, 2007 production, 4006TSW, when I worked for the CHP. A very good, very accurate gun. It got me hooked on the 3rd Gen autos. But.....I currently carry an M&P 40. The accuracy is just as good, and I doesn't dig a gouge in my hip after 12 hrs on my hip....My 3rd gen auto are basically range guns.
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Old 03-20-2011, 04:57 PM
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Default ..and here are the pics everyone has been waiting for..

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Without pics, it doesn't exist.


I did my usual cleaning and detailing, but I feel I can do better on covering the holster wear.
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  #78  
Old 03-23-2011, 12:55 AM
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Any recent updates on the purchase or issue of the new pistols?
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:31 PM
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No updates from me on the WVSP's aquisition of 4566TSWs.

I did hear back from the two S&W dealers I asked to see about ordering one for me.

The first said that they were told that these were "not available".

The other shop said they were told that "these were not in production any longer". I told him to call them back a few times till he got a better answer.

I'll probably just find out who the south east LEO rep is and ask him. When I went looking for my Melonite 4566 some years ago, I experienced a similar......lack of cooperation.

For a company that wants to sell their product, they leave alot to be desired.

Sorry to read that Col Pack has been retired. Probably be a bean counter who selects the next handgun they use. Regards 18DAI.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:09 AM
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For a company that wants to sell their product, they leave alot to be desired.
Hmmm, I wonder if that could be S&W's way of trying to get potential customers to forget about metal-framed pistols.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:54 AM
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Hmmm, I wonder if that could be S&W's way of trying to get potential customers to forget about metal-framed pistols.

I don't think so... I heard the deal fell through and they were going with M&P's... someone decided it better to get into the 21st century..
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Old 03-29-2011, 01:04 AM
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No updates from me on the WVSP's aquisition of 4566TSWs.

I did hear back from the two S&W dealers I asked to see about ordering one for me.

The first said that they were told that these were "not available".

The other shop said they were told that "these were not in production any longer". I told him to call them back a few times till he got a better answer.

I'll probably just find out who the south east LEO rep is and ask him. When I went looking for my Melonite 4566 some years ago, I experienced a similar......lack of cooperation.

For a company that wants to sell their product, they leave alot to be desired.

Sorry to read that Col Pack has been retired. Probably be a bean counter who selects the next handgun they use. Regards 18DAI.

I heard some bad news today, I was at Ronk's Uniform Shop in Huntington, Wva today, that's where my Agency gets our uniforms, A Sgt. with the Wva State Police told me that the S&W deal may have fallen through, I asked what they were considering the M&P? He told me no, most likely the Glock 21SF 4th Generation when it comes out later this year. He told me that with the retirement of Col. Pack and with another State Agency already purchasing Glock 21's it was probably a done deal. I want to clarify that he said nothing is set in stone as of yet, just talk within the State Police. I'm very sad as I thought maybe S&W would have some over runs of 4566's!
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:54 AM
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Well I just read on Glock Talk forum in the "Cop Talk" section that WV State Police are dumping the 4566TSW's! Apparently they are going with the 4th generation Glock 21's. Why can't S&W get it ? That the 3rd generation 45's are still in demand, not everybody wants a plastic pistol, I guess the M&P 45 wasn't good enough, I to prefer the Glock to the M&P but like the 4506 myself as a duty weapon. I guess Glock gets another contract.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:57 AM
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Hey "18DAI" your contact heard anything different? I so wanted a new 4566 with a rail in black!
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:46 AM
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Hi Tim Nagel,

No I've not spoken with him in the last few weeks. I'll leave him a message and see what he knows.

IIRC Glock 21 was what they were going to go to if S&W wouldn't produce the 4566TSW's.

The M&P 45 with it's lousy trigger and poor QA/QC was eliminated from consideration early in the process. Despite the internet hype, the M&P pistol is best loved by the bean counters - not the troops.

Glock reportedly came in way under the M&P bid with their tupperware gun. Six figures under was what I'm told.

I'm not a Glock fan. I have no use for striker fired plastic guns in general. That said, I would be VERY reluctant to stake my life on a Glock 21. Too much history of that model occasionally failing to go bang. Design flaw that evidently NOBODY talks about. Regards 18DAI.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
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Well I just read on Glock Talk forum in the "Cop Talk" section that WV State Police are dumping the 4566TSW's! Apparently they are going with the 4th generation Glock 21's. Why can't S&W get it ? That the 3rd generation 45's are still in demand, not everybody wants a plastic pistol, I guess the M&P 45 wasn't good enough, I to prefer the Glock to the M&P but like the 4506 myself as a duty weapon. I guess Glock gets another contract.
I was just reading that myself over on GT. I'm not surprised. From a department standing point plastic just makes more sense. Reliable, tough and cheaper.

Personally, I wouldn't be sad to trade in a 4566 for a G21SF. Higher capacity, lighter, better trigger. (IMO)
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Old 04-10-2011, 08:36 PM
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I'd carry a G21SF or 4th gen G21 any time as a duty weapon.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:41 AM
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Has anyone heard for sure that the deal has fell through? I keeping hoping that it has not, especially with the LAPD interest in the 4506/4566 series of pistols. S&W needs to keep these in their line up!
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:13 PM
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...I would be VERY reluctant to stake my life on a Glock 21. Too much history of that model occasionally failing to go bang. Design flaw that evidently NOBODY talks about. Regards 18DAI.
What's the design flaw?

Let's talk about this!

I don't prefer Glocks -- but would own a 21SF 4th gen -- or a 20SF 4th gen -- as well as the 29 and 30.

So what RELIABLE documentation exists on this? Links would be appreciated!

Will a titanium striker fix it?

I've seen a second gen Glock 20 that wouldn't fire because of light strikes -- but it had oil, goop and gunk around the striker and channel.

I'd like to know the story -- and we can start a new thread if needed.

In most cases, I'd prefer a 4566 or 4506 -- but I can see some cases where I'd go with a Glock -- although not lovingly.

I'm still not sold on the M&P myself -- although I WANT to believe!
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Old 04-15-2011, 12:26 PM
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What's the design flaw?

Let's talk about this!

I don't prefer Glocks -- but would own a 21SF 4th gen -- or a 20SF 4th gen -- as well as the 29 and 30.

So what RELIABLE documentation exists on this? Links would be appreciated!

Will a titanium striker fix it?

I've seen a second gen Glock 20 that wouldn't fire because of light strikes -- but it had oil, goop and gunk around the striker and channel.

I'd like to know the story -- and we can start a new thread if needed.

In most cases, I'd prefer a 4566 or 4506 -- but I can see some cases where I'd go with a Glock -- although not lovingly.

I'm still not sold on the M&P myself -- although I WANT to believe!

I'd like to hear about it as well.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:01 AM
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The melonite on my M&P 9 is wearing pretty fast behind the ejection port in the Safariland ALS holster.
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Old 04-17-2011, 11:14 PM
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The melonite on my M&P 9 is wearing pretty fast behind the ejection port in the Safariland ALS holster.
That's just the finish on top of the Melonite metal treatment (hardening) and is just cosmetic. To my surprise, you can touch it up with a Birchwood-Casey blue pen, but it will just wear again...
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:17 AM
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Any West Virginia State Troopers out there? Can you provide any further info whether you are getting new pistols or not? I know we would all be interested in any further info about this rumor one way or another!
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:46 AM
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Does anyone have a good pic of the Melonite 4566?
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:59 AM
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I'm still curious did WV State Police stay with the S&W 4566 or going to Glock 21? Anybody hear anything?
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:37 AM
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Evidently the 4566TSW deal is off and they will get G21 4th gens (which are not even out yet) starting this summer.

My guy said he was not thrilled. But - it was better than getting M&P's.

Those 4566TSW's were well maintained, so maybe we will get some nice examples when they are traded in to Glock. Silver lining.

Too bad it worked out this way. Another poor decision from S&W to push that plastic gun to the exclusion of superior handguns. Regards 18DAI.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
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Evidently the 4566TSW deal is off and they will get G21 4th gens (which are not even out yet) starting this summer.

My guy said he was not thrilled. But - it was better than getting M&P's..
..Regards 18DAI.
A bit of thread drift here, but can you elaborate on why he was much happier with the concept of the G21's over the M&Ps?
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:34 PM
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The trigger and accuracy of the G21. Regards 18DAI.
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:23 AM
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The Trooper I spoke with said the M&P was not popular in testing.

The G21SF is better than a sharp stick.

Dave Williams
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Old 05-07-2011, 03:52 PM
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Those 4566TSW's were well maintained, so maybe we will get some nice examples when they are traded in to Glock. Silver lining.
That, at least, it potentially good news for us.
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