Ammo Opinion

[Carl1990]

I had just turned 21 and I had decided to go and try out handgun's with one of my buddies who has allot of experiance with firearms to assist me. I only have experiance with HD shotguns and rifles. I decided to rent a S&W M&P .40. I set target's up 25yds away and got the gun ready. I already knew how to hold and operate semi auto handguns and I know everything about gun safety and practice it all the time but it was my first time fireing one. Out of the 30 rounds I shot all of them was in the 10 mark and "x" mark except 5 shots. This gun feels really good in my hand. Im going back to try out a 9mm and .45 to see which I like better and then im thinking about getting my own handgun and taking a conceal and carry cource. I dont want to make a choice on any firearm until ive tried a few of them to see which feels better and which im more accurate with.

Anyway's. What is your guy's opinion with the .40's? A couple of my friend's say they dont care much for them because they are "snappy" but I would like to see more opinions.

[Ogandydancer]

I have a Sig P229R in .40 S&W and I also own a S&W 5903 in 9mm and a Sig P6 9mm and a Beretta 92f in 9mm and they are all very managable as far as recoil. My 229 is also capable of .357 sig round with only a barrel change and it's not much different. I imagime your recoil factor will be somewhat dependant on what load you choose. I like and can manage them all. You do have the right idea of renting and trying though. Good luck on whatever you choose. Also good luck if you try for your CC; it's an awesome responsibility. Also sounds like you may be new to the board and, if this is the case welcome aboard.

[handgunner356]

To me there just isn't enough difference between the best 9/40/45 loads to consider one over the other for concealed carry. I would pick one that felt the best and was easiest to carry. I have all the calibers and reload so ammo cost isn't a big concern to me, but 40 is going to run $3-4 more than 9 and 45 is going to run another $5-6 over the 40. So if you want to shoot a lot and don't reload that would be another consideration. With the 40 it is similar to putting 45 power into a 9mm framed gun, so they are usually going to be more "snappy" so to speak. Most 40s' can use a conversion barrel to fire 9mm, makes for cheaper range time, I just wouldn't bet my life on that setup.

[Carl1990]

Originally Posted by handgunner356

To me there just isn't enough difference between the best 9/40/45 loads to consider one over the other for concealed carry. I would pick one that felt the best and was easiest to carry. I have all the calibers and reload so ammo cost isn't a big concern to me, but 40 is going to run $3-4 more than 9 and 45 is going to run another $5-6 over the 40. So if you want to shoot a lot and don't reload that would be another consideration. With the 40 it is similar to putting 45 power into a 9mm framed gun, so they are usually going to be more "snappy" so to speak. Most 40s' can use a conversion barrel to fire 9mm, makes for cheaper range time, I just wouldn't bet my life on that setup.

Yeah, ive noticed the different price in handgun ammo allot. I was useing hollow point 165 grain I think. I did not know you can converse a 40 into a 9. I heard that you can converse a 40 into a .357 but I did not research that yet so im unsure about that. One of the thing's im looking for in a CC and HD weapon is stopping power and accuracy. Ive heard of 9mm not being the best because it has less power behind it. For instance I heard someone say if your assailant has thick leather then a 9mm can barely go through it. Then ive heard others say that a 9mm will get the job done with no problem. So im unsure of what to think of the 9mm round but I still want to try one out and get some practice. I do however have a 12GA that I use for HD but it would be nice to have something else to quickly grab. Allot of people are against useing handguns for HD but I strongly think that the best weapon is the weapon someone feel's more comfortable with. Seen people get flamed on forums because allot think's the shotgun is the best choice for HD lol.

[586nickel]

You're wise to try different guns and calibers and ask questions here on the forum -- kudos to you.

I'll second the 9mm thought --- much cheaper ammo and not as snappy as a .40 S&W. That being said, I have a 4006 and it is heavy and soaks up a lot of recoil --- doesn't bother me at all, actually don't even notice the recoil.

I have a 5903TSW and a 5906 in 9mm and they are both a joy to shoot. The former is better balance and the latter is quite heavy --- recoil is a non-factor.

I also have a Beretta 92FS that I really enjoy --- again, recoil is a non factor.

My dad has a Kimber in .45 ACP and I didn't even notice the recoil.

In the end, the options are limitless but you can buy a whole lot a 9mm for a lot cheaper than .40 or .45. Besides, once you buy one guy, there are surely more to follow!!! It's addictive!

[W.E.G.]

The .40 is fine.

The 9mm is fine.

The 9mm is cheaper to shoot.

The .40 makes a hole that is 45 thousandths of an inch wider.

You will notice the greater size of the hole that the .40 makes in your wallet much more than any subject you may shoot with the .40.

[jdesro1911]

Welcome to the forum, Carl!

As far as the 9mm goes, I'll have to side with the camp that says the 9mm will get the job done with no problem. The person that told you a 9mm will barely get through thick leather is pretty thick himself.

9, .40, .45 - with modern hollowpoint ammo I really don't think that there is too much difference between them - they can all be very effective rounds.

So my advice, whatever that is worth, is to do what you plan to do - try them all and see for yourself which one suits your needs the best. I don't think you can make a bad choice with any of these calibers.

[Carl1990]

Originally Posted by 586nickel

In the end, the options are limitless but you can buy a whole lot a 9mm for a lot cheaper than .40 or .45. Besides, once you buy one guy, there are surely more to follow!!! It's addictive!

One reason why I could not wait until I turned 21

[Carl1990]

Originally Posted by jdesro1911

Welcome to the forum, Carl!

As far as the 9mm goes, I'll have to side with the camp that says the 9mm will get the job done with no problem. The person that told you a 9mm will barely get through thick leather is pretty thick himself.

9, .40, .45 - with modern hollowpoint ammo I really don't think that there is too much difference between them - they can all be very effective rounds.

So my advice, whatever that is worth, is to do what you plan to do - try them all and see for yourself which one suits your needs the best. I don't think you can make a bad choice with any of these calibers.

Thank you and your advice does matter allot

[sniper47]

I happen to be a huge fan of the .40 S&W ctg. I own a 4006, 4003, SW99, SIG 226, Browning High Power and a Beretta 96G. In the past, I have owned a 4046, 4053 and a Glock 23. I sold the DAO's because I feel more comfortable shooting the SA/DA autos, Browning High Power not withstanding and I sold the Glock because it beat up my hand when I would practice with it. The .40 is a great cartridge, law enforcement agencies love it and I happen to the .40 shoot very well. Recoil is subjective. I do not find it objectionable. Shoot a couple of other .40's to find out which gun feels best in hand. Good luck in your search.

[xopher88x]

It's kinda been said a few posts up but pick the one that likes YOU rather than the one you like. Meaning, pick the one you shoot the best and feel the most confident in regardless of the caliber. Good, quality, modern ammo makes all the calibers in question good ones. Also, good job on renting and trying and taking a systematic approach to your decision.

[Shadow1006]

Carl1990, you should seek out a 10mm to see what you think! S&W hasn't made one in the M&P line (yet) but the ballistic performance is nothing short of fantastic...Good luck!

[kimberst245]

Try them all and decide which you like the best. I have had all, and currently have 9mm, 357 Mag, and .45. The .40 is ok, but I never developed a taste for it. .45 leaves a big hole...9mm is the most economical and least hard on your hand. The .357 Sig has good ballistics, but limited potential and a high price tag in my neck of the woods making it a "dead" round, like the 10mm. I try to stick to the Wal-Mart rule when buying a gun: If i can go to Wal-Mart (or other local chain) and get a box of shells 90% of the time, then I might be interested. If not, it doesn't make the cut. May sound boring and mundane, but it sure works well for me. Good luck on your decision.

[Carl1990]

Thank's for all the advice and opinions so far Its helping out.

[Maximumbob54]

You could also buy the .40SW model and then buy the .357SIG barrel so you can have two guns in one.

[quneur]

I once knew a hunter who routinely took blacktail deer on tribal land using only a .22lr. Its all about shot placement. Its not so much as what caliber you shoot but how you shoot it. So, pick a caliber which you are going to be comfortable with - not one which you'll have to worry about.

As for the shotgun question, the advantage of a shotgun is the pattering of shot. A self-defense shot like 00 buckshot 12ga from a 18" barrel is hard for you to miss for distances of 25' or so. Add a second shot slug, you can defend against a grizzly. Plus, a shotgun is more intimidating, IMO.

[Skeptic 9c]

There is always the small caliber solution, a .22 version of a full size weapon.
M&P22  - .22LR - Smith & Wesson

If concealed carry is an object, S&W does not make much in the compact, flat niche. The old 908s and similar pistols are out of the catalog. I feel the 9mm, in a small flat semi-auto is the solution to the CCW problem, especially in Florida where a heavy winter coat is an unlined windbreaker.

S&W - Walther CCW Semi-Auto with $50 Rebate:
PPS Promotion - Walther America

I think the .40 is a bit too powerful in a small pistol, but it seems to be the choice of more and more police departments.

Geoff
Who fills the slot with a Kahr 9094.

[Carl1990]

Originally Posted by quneur

I once knew a hunter who routinely took blacktail deer on tribal land using only a .22lr. Its all about shot placement. Its not so much as what caliber you shoot but how you shoot it. So, pick a caliber which you are going to be comfortable with - not one which you'll have to worry about.

As for the shotgun question, the advantage of a shotgun is the pattering of shot. A self-defense shot like 00 buckshot 12ga from a 18" barrel is hard for you to miss for distances of 25' or so. Add a second shot slug, you can defend against a grizzly. Plus, a shotgun is more intimidating, IMO.

That's the reason I like the 12ga because you dont need to really aim to be accurate unless you try to use a slug or non-lethal bean bag rounds. Only difference is it takes a little longer to grab and get into position for me at least. (Mine has regular synthetic stock (M500)) Also the sound of the pump is also a major factor when it comes to HD because when an intruder hears that it basically puts fear into them lol. When it comes to HD I care allot about speed and the shotgun seems to slow it down a bit for me even with the training ive had with them. Seen other be allot more faster with them than me sadly lol.

[AKAOV1MAN]

No offense to anyone, but when I hear certain phrases repeated I go into dogmatic mode because some phrases or concepts are simply so wrong headed, usually put out by folks with not much real life experience of which they are speaking.
1. You CAN miss with a shotgun, very easily. A shotgun is not just a point, shoot and goodbye bad guy gun. At typical HD ranges a load of just about any shot size will only expand to about 18"-max. There are numerous holes in everything but the bad guy to attest to this.
2. The sound of a pump action being racked has a discernible effect on me(particularly when it emenates from a rookie behind me on the stairs), and maybe most of you. But on most bad guys, nada. The reason is simple; I and most of the folks reading this have our heads on straight and are thinking rationally. If the bad guys were doing that they would not be there in the first place! Add in the extreme probability of intoxication from some controlled substance or alcohol, the natural physical chemical dump, and that sound usually means absolutely nothing to such a person.
Relying on gun shop commando myths is a sure way to get oneself killed or injured, or maybe arrested.
In just short of a half century of carrying weapons professionally I have never witnessed the sound of a pump gun being operated have any effect on anyone but other pros around. Further, I have witnessed numerous instances of persons, including pros, missing at very close ranges with a shotgun. As long as we are on the subject, I have witnessed individuals getting shot with all manner of firearms, including shotguns loaded with every possible style of load, continuing doing bad things, till they fell over(sometimes) later.
The only certain stop shots are central nervous system hits, or a pelvic cradle destructive hit, both of which render the BG incapable of further effective ambulation-the latter not necessarily preventing him from shooting or stabbing however.
3. Beanbag and similiar rounds are NOT NON lethal, they are LESS lethal, they can easily kill. Only professionally trained personnel should even consider the use of such ammunition. Reason is simple, if you use force that can be lethal, you had better be able to justify it, attempting a less lethal option can get you into lots of trouble, when it gets lethal, and it can very easily.
4. Mixing ammunition in a shotgun (or any other magazine) is a sure fire plan for disaster. It is specifically prohibited by most LE agencies for very good reasons. And I do not mean mixing less lethal and lethal ammunition(that is just plain nutz), but mixing slugs/buckshot or any other combination of ammo types. I know all of the so called reasons for that, and they are mostly just BS. Just try explaing to the plaintiffs' attorney, or a prosecutor why you had buckshot up first and then slugs, but somehow the buck got shucked and the slug was fired first, or you forgot the sequence because the gun had been under the bed for a year, or whatever. Sure you can say it makes no difference criminally in a "good" shoot. But your real problem after a SD shooting is going to be the certainty of a civil suit, and that may well be in front of a jury that knows nothing about guns, or thinks all guns are bad. The same is true for all the "specialty" rounds, chain shot, firebreathing shot, etc. etc.. Can you spell "gross negliegence"?

[Carl1990]

Originally Posted by AKAOV1MAN

No offense to anyone, but when I hear certain phrases repeated I go into dogmatic mode because some phrases or concepts are simply so wrong headed, usually put out by folks with not much real life experience of which they are speaking.
1. You CAN miss with a shotgun, very easily. A shotgun is not just a point, shoot and goodbye bad guy gun. At typical HD ranges a load of just about any shot size will only expand to about 18"-max. There are numerous holes in everything but the bad guy to attest to this.
2. The sound of a pump action being racked has a discernible effect on me(particularly when it emenates from a rookie behind me on the stairs), and maybe most of you. But on most bad guys, nada. The reason is simple; I and most of the folks reading this have our heads on straight and are thinking rationally. If the bad guys were doing that they would not be there in the first place! Add in the extreme probability of intoxication from some controlled substance or alcohol, the natural physical chemical dump, and that sound usually means absolutely nothing to such a person.
Relying on gun shop commando myths is a sure way to get oneself killed or injured, or maybe arrested.
In just short of a half century of carrying weapons professionally I have never witnessed the sound of a pump gun being operated have any effect on anyone but other pros around. Further, I have witnessed numerous instances of persons, including pros, missing at very close ranges with a shotgun. As long as we are on the subject, I have witnessed individuals getting shot with all manner of firearms, including shotguns loaded with every possible style of load, continuing doing bad things, till they fell over(sometimes) later.
The only certain stop shots are central nervous system hits, or a pelvic cradle destructive hit, both of which render the BG incapable of further effective ambulation-the latter not necessarily preventing him from shooting or stabbing however.
3. Beanbag and similiar rounds are NOT NON lethal, they are LESS lethal, they can easily kill. Only professionally trained personnel should even consider the use of such ammunition. Reason is simple, if you use force that can be lethal, you had better be able to justify it, attempting a less lethal option can get you into lots of trouble, when it gets lethal, and it can very easily.
4. Mixing ammunition in a shotgun (or any other magazine) is a sure fire plan for disaster. It is specifically prohibited by most LE agencies for very good reasons. And I do not mean mixing less lethal and lethal ammunition(that is just plain nutz), but mixing slugs/buckshot or any other combination of ammo types. I know all of the so called reasons for that, and they are mostly just BS. Just try explaing to the plaintiffs' attorney, or a prosecutor why you had buckshot up first and then slugs, but somehow the buck got shucked and the slug was fired first, or you forgot the sequence because the gun had been under the bed for a year, or whatever. Sure you can say it makes no difference criminally in a "good" shoot. But your real problem after a SD shooting is going to be the certainty of a civil suit, and that may well be in front of a jury that knows nothing about guns, or thinks all guns are bad. The same is true for all the "specialty" rounds, chain shot, firebreathing shot, etc. etc.. Can you spell "gross negliegence"?

That's a reason I never use so called Non-lethal rounds. I use that term because its what most people call them for some reason. Mine sticks completely to buck and I dont like to mix just because of those reasons. Their can be consequences for any SD action taken and in those situations its best to think fast and clearly of what actions your taking. Ive had 3 break in attempts this year and im glad I never had to use any lethal force thank's to my dog's lol. With the Ohio Castle Doctrine it says we are alowed to shoot to kill if an unwanted intruder enters your home with the intruder being armed or not. Some might disagree with me but I wont use lethal force unless I see need fit. Which means I wont shoot unless I see the intruder as a life threat which means if I dont see a gun and if the intruder does not try anything. That might sound risky to some people but that is how I am on that subject. However I was taught to have an lawyer ready incase you had to use force just because of civil suits

[lanxandreads]

Originally Posted by Carl1990

That's the reason I like the 12ga because you dont need to really aim to be accurate unless you try to use a slug or non-lethal bean bag rounds. Only difference is it takes a little longer to grab and get into position for me at least. (Mine has regular synthetic stock (M500)) Also the sound of the pump is also a major factor when it comes to HD because when an intruder hears that it basically puts fear into them lol. When it comes to HD I care allot about speed and the shotgun seems to slow it down a bit for me even with the training ive had with them. Seen other be allot more faster with them than me sadly lol.

I always hear people talk about the "intimidation factor" of a shotgun being racked, that it sends terror into the heart of any would be intruder.
My question is, what if instead of hearing the unseen invader fleeing in terror, you hear a shotgun being rack instead?

That would kinda suck.

[Carl1990]

Originally Posted by lanxandreads

I always hear people talk about the "intimidation factor" of a shotgun being racked, that it sends terror into the heart of any would be intruder.
My question is, what if instead of hearing the unseen invader fleeing in terror, you hear a shotgun being rack instead?

That would kinda suck.

That's funny lol. What I really meant to say their is that it might scare an intruder off. MIGHT but not all the time. You cant just use sound as a defence.

I also left out a part on the last post I did. My house is actully really small and for me to use buckshot without useing any sight is not so bad on my part because my house is not as big and im only aiming 8-10 feet. Its still best to use sights though if you know you cant hit a target from a distance without sights with a shotgun. You may not always have time to get the shotgun up in time to aim at your target. A big reason why I dont use slugs or less lethal rounds.

[TAROMAN]

Portland, Oregon PD recently had an experience mixing a 00 buck round with a less lethal loading. BG took one in the butt. He did live, and his lawyers probably just won the BG lottery where the city pays out big.