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Old 01-07-2023, 02:33 PM
gmborkovic gmborkovic is offline
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Default A neat steel frame pre-39

Just a moment...
Saw the above pre-39 and took a chance.
Not only is it an early pre-39 but came with goodies and
its a steel frame. I will add more info as my inquiries come in.
Comments and questions are welcome. I will answer the best I can. Mike
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Old 01-07-2023, 02:54 PM
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Mike!

Outstanding win… a real part of S&W 1st Generation history.
Congratulations.
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Old 01-07-2023, 03:48 PM
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Wow, just wow! That one checks all the boxes. If there had been more steel frame First Gen guns (to make them affordable) I would have probably snarfed one up and not had to build my stainless framed Franken-Smith. I saw the jaw dropping prices early on and knew that was not to be. That one definitely deserves a home with a serious collector like yourself. Well done!
Froggie!
PS did this gun or the later guns come with a complete “tool kit”? If yes, which SAT would that one have had?
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Old 01-07-2023, 05:06 PM
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Mr. Froggie, none of my early 39s came with a kit. I have a few later guns with un-opened complete kits. I can not attest they left the factory that way. The ones I have, contain the alum. fluted handle. The packing people never seem to miss putting some kind of kit in with the revolvers.
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Old 01-07-2023, 05:22 PM
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At one point I owned 1132 in LNIB condition. It had the green booklet and a cleaning kit that included the rod, brush and mop but no SAT. AFAIK, there is no way to know for certain what shipped with these guns but there is one data point for you. It shipped to the same destination as Mike's "new" gun.
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Old 01-07-2023, 07:35 PM
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Mike, this is definitely one of the earliest steel frames and a great gun. I'm waiting for you to disclose all the anomalies it has making it unique for a pre-39. Maybe you can get get some answers here about them. Congratulations.
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Old 01-08-2023, 09:59 PM
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Evaluators LTD, am I wrong for thinking this a FBI entity?
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Old 01-08-2023, 10:26 PM
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Yes, you are wrong. It was a commercial dealer owned by Gen. Van Orden. If you do a search on this forum you can learn quite a bit about the Van Orden's. We've been visited by his daughter and his grandson.
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Old 01-09-2023, 11:27 AM
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My understanding from reading and conversations from older collectors was that Evaluators was a solely owned business by the General and his wife.
But had a very close working relationship with the power at the factory.
And worked with a lot of law enforcement agencies.
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Old 01-09-2023, 03:45 PM
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Have received copies of invoices to Evaluators dated July 7, 1955 and
July 12, 1955. The July 7th inv. was ordered over a 4th of July weekend.
The typed notation is for " 9MM DA SEMI-AUTOMATIC" qty 15.
The July 12th invoice was ordered by phone on the 12th and sent out the same day. The typed notation is for " 9MM AUTOMATIC DA AIRWEIGHT".
qty. 15. Notice the absence of "AIRWEIGHT" on the July 7th invoice?
I have been told these were the first, two invoices for commercial release of the new 9MM auto. With the proximity of the invoices, it indicates the first 15 guns must have been sold quickly.
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Old 01-09-2023, 08:00 PM
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Hay Bork,
I've got No. 1086 and I'm pretty sure it, too, is an "Evalulators."

It might be on one of the two invoices you have. I'd love to know, of course. However, I've got a ("a," that's funny) Roy Jinks letter on it but I'd have to go to my fire file, dial up the combo - oops, first must find the little piece of paper upon which the combo is written (You know, I've been hankerin' for a tatoo...) Then leaf through a sheaf of Dr. Jinks' letters (I like to pretend I'm better organized, but no ....).

So, for now, I'll let you do the legwork. If you need some images, Just holler.

And I've never me a Pre I didn't like. I'm happy for ya, Man!

Later - DC
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Old 01-09-2023, 08:19 PM
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I know of at least 2 others from that 7/7/55 shipment and they have alloy frames.
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Old 01-09-2023, 08:26 PM
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DC, no 1086 on my invoices. Im hollering. need some pics of front sight.
Top views and where the sight ramp meets the slide. thanks. Bork.
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Old 01-10-2023, 03:23 PM
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A bit of the mystery solved with remembered info. Of the 15 pre-39s on
the July 7,1955 invoice, 1051 is the steel frame and 1150 and 1151 are both alloy frames. The two guns were in Richard McMillan's 39 display
in 2018. So, that is 3 of the 15 accounted for, 12 more to find. Mr. MacMillan was handing out some pics and write ups on the 35 mod-39s
in his display. Fortunately a close collector friend of mine picked me up a copy. More later. Mike
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Old 01-14-2023, 02:43 PM
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I have examined 1051 a little more closely since I got it. I removed the upper assembly, the grips and mag. The gun meets all of McMillans criteria for a pre-39, with 3 notable exceptions:
1. the frame is steel, not alloy.
2. there is no S&W trademark stamped on the right side of the frame.
3. there is no "P" stamped on the left trigger guard.
There are no other stamps or markings on the frame other than 1051.
Is this significant? No idea. Or just that someone was in a hurry to get a gun finished to ship out to Evaluators.
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Old 01-14-2023, 07:13 PM
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[QUOTE=DCW;141647795]Hay Bork,
I've got No. 1086 and I'm pretty sure it, too, is an "Evalulators."

It might be on one of the two invoices you have. I'd love to know, of course. However, I've got a ("a," that's funny) Roy Jinks letter on it but I'd have to go to my fire file, dial up the combo - oops, first must find the little piece of paper upon which the combo is written (You know, I've been hankerin' for a tatoo...) Then leaf through a sheaf of Dr. Jinks' letters (I like to pretend I'm better organized, but no ....).

D.C., According to the SWCA database, s/n 1086 was shipped on 5/1/56 but the destination is not included.
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Old 01-15-2023, 10:38 AM
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Rich, ref. 1086, you know what I do. Im waiting for ole DC to find his Letter.
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Old 01-15-2023, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmborkovic View Post
I have examined 1051 a little more closely since I got it. I removed the upper assembly, the grips and mag. The gun meets all of McMillans criteria for a pre-39, with 3 notable exceptions:
1. the frame is steel, not alloy.
2. there is no S&W trademark stamped on the right side of the frame.
3. there is no "P" stamped on the left trigger guard.
There are no other stamps or markings on the frame other than 1051.
Is this significant? No idea. Or just that someone was in a hurry to get a gun finished to ship out to Evaluators.
Are you sure it's a true S&W frame?
There was a company that was making all steel replacement frames for the 39. With no markings on your frame I'm wondering if that's what you have.
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Old 01-15-2023, 02:04 PM
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The frame specs. out just like my other 39s. There was a machine shop in Calif. in the mid-70s that made 200 stainless steel frames and sold as kits.
They were all bright finish and had custom serial numbers. Back in 1955 the factory had a room of 950 unfinished, un-serial numbered steel frames.
If you get any more info on 39 non-factory frames, let us know. Mike
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Old 01-15-2023, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
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Are you sure it's a true S&W frame?
There was a company that was making all steel replacement frames for the 39. With no markings on your frame I'm wondering if that's what you have.
You might be referring to the Bole Industries Model 39 steel frames made around 1977. About 200 of them were manufactured and they have unique stampings, on the right side are the letters B. I. I. in circles within a triangle and Northridge Ca. below the triangle. On the left side is stamped Model 39-ss with a non S&W serial number. Usually a 4 digit number beginning with a 0XXX. The frames were topped off with a model 39-2 slide. A search on this forum will turn up posts with additional information.
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File Type: jpg Bole 1.JPG (74.5 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg Bole.JPG (83.5 KB, 54 views)

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Old 01-15-2023, 02:57 PM
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Thanks Rich, had a brain fart on remembering the name.
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Old 01-15-2023, 06:39 PM
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Mike, did S&W finish and sell all (or most) of those 950 orphan frames? To be honest, I can’t remember what the “official” production number looked like, but knowing that Smith doesn’t like to throw anything away…

Froggie
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Old 01-15-2023, 06:56 PM
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Froggie, I have read of the 950, 27 were scrapped. Or 23 scrapped.
Of the remaining, they were completed and sold to the public in the 30K, 60K and 80K serial number range. Just what I have read.
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Old 01-15-2023, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar015 View Post
You might be referring to the Bole Industries Model 39 steel frames made around 1977. About 200 of them were manufactured and they have unique stampings, on the right side are the letters B. I. I. in circles within a triangle and Northridge Ca. below the triangle. On the left side is stamped Model 39-ss with a non S&W serial number. Usually a 4 digit number beginning with a 0XXX. The frames were topped off with a model 39-2 slide. A search on this forum will turn up posts with additional information.
That's the company I was thinking of but could not remember the name. I thought it was out of California.
Now that you've refreshed my memory the BII stamping is correct.
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Old 01-16-2023, 12:05 AM
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AMT also made a few stainless steel frames; not sure how many.
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Old 01-16-2023, 02:59 PM
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OK, so as of right now, we have confirmed two mfg. of after market 39
steel frames, albeit stainless steel. Bole and AMT. I have been looking thru old publications from the 60s and 70s with no luck.
If there is one steel frame pre-39, bet your pay check there is another one.
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Old 01-16-2023, 05:33 PM
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Mike, didn't we opine a connection between the Bole and AMT frames, perhaps a single actual foundry or factory? IIRC, there were only about 200 of them marked Bole, but no number has surfaced for the AMT version (that I've discovered at least). If I had developed my current interest in the 39 series a few decades earlier, I would probably own one, since they definitely qualify as "way cool" but as usual, I arrived "a day late and a dollar short"!
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Old 01-16-2023, 06:08 PM
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Frog, no doubt. With the problems Bole was encountering, they may have turned operations over to AMT. I can say as an FFL dealer at the time, I had one inquiry and one sale of a Bole frame. Not like the Essex frames for the Colt 45ACP.
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Old 01-23-2023, 12:21 PM
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Here's serial number 1185 (alloy frame), that Roy Jinks confirmed shipped in July, 1955. He opined that it's "an important gun" but I've never gotten around to obtaining a letter for it.
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Old 01-23-2023, 12:46 PM
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I have in my notes that 1185 was a salesman's sample but I'm not sure where I got that information.
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Old 01-23-2023, 02:06 PM
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Very interesting acquisition Mike, I noticed that it has the slide serration positioning like my steel frame s/n 60096, sans the "Pat's Pending" script.
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Old 01-23-2023, 03:03 PM
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Trey, are you talking to me or Goony about serrations?
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Old 01-23-2023, 09:52 PM
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I was commenting on yours Mike. I realize yours is a pre-39 but found it interesting.
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Old 01-24-2023, 10:39 AM
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Trey, apparently the serrations and pat pend were moved forward some
time in the 60K Sn. range. The first 1300 guns did not have pat. pend.
I base the above comments on observations, conversations and reading of McMillan's extensive research articles.
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Old 01-24-2023, 12:16 PM
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Sweet! The first 9mm I ever shot was my cousin's (a Postal Inspector) steel frame pre-39 in about 1962/3? He used it as his off duty carry piece.

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Old 01-24-2023, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
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Trey, apparently the serrations and pat pend were moved forward some
time in the 60K Sn. range. The first 1300 guns did not have pat. pend.
I base the above comments on observations, conversations and reading of McMillan's extensive research articles.
Hanging around this forum and guys like you and Rich has really been enlightening. I never knew there were so many subtle differences in the 1st and 2nd gen Smiths. I appreciate all the light that you guys have bestowed on me and appreciate your patience!
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Old 01-24-2023, 02:38 PM
gmborkovic gmborkovic is offline
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hold on rangemaster, your cousin had a steel frame pre-39 back in 1962?
I started out saying, if there is one there are more. Do you know where the steel frame pre-39 is? I know, a long shot.
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Old 01-24-2023, 02:58 PM
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Hey Trey, we are all here to learn. Rich and I have benefited from years of observations and help from other collectors. The only thing is that it gets expensive at times. Keeps me away from the track and the poker tables. And all ways a big thank you to fellow members that have sent copies of previously printed and out of date research and data articles.
Thanks to those guys.
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Old 01-24-2023, 04:32 PM
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Trey, you got me thinking on slide serrations and pat. pend. location.
So I pulled out my two steel guns. My NIB 39520 looks exactually like yours. My NIB steel 63235 has the serrations and pat. pend. moved forward. For some reason both guns came with 4 era correct mags and tool kits with SATs. All I got for now. Mike
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Old 01-24-2023, 08:49 PM
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Steel frame 631XX has the slide serrations moved forward, too.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 631XX.jpg (105.3 KB, 38 views)
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Old 01-25-2023, 01:16 PM
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Goony, follows my observations and data. Just as a side note, what mag came with your steel? X follower and S&W base plate.
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Old 01-25-2023, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Just as a side note, what mag came with your steel?
Well, I'd have to get it out & look, but I'm certain it's an X follower type and as I recall an S&W only marked baseplate. The cutout magazine in the photo didn't come with it, nor that dust cover. Those actually accompanied 1185 posted above, but clearly weren't (and so verified by Roy Jinks) original to that gun. The steel frame has the grooves for mounting the dust cover, so it seemed reasonable to me to move both items over to it.

At the risk of hijacking your thread, regarding that steel frame, back in the day I bought a steel 52 backstrap, and took it over to the local machine shop (this being when there such establishments were still commonplace), where the appropriate slot was milled through the solid tab at its base to make it into a lanyard attachment point paralleling the configuration of the standard 39 alloy backstrap. So this one's all steel now (for you purists, I did retain the original, so this modification can be readily undone and the pistol restored to its factory specs). I used a steel 52 backstrap in assembling my Frankennine also, although in that case, the vestigial tab was taken off altogether.
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:42 PM
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Your mag sounds era correct. Have you ever shot your steel. A little bit different experience.
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Old 01-27-2023, 11:52 AM
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This is the most interesting forum post that I have ever read since I have been on here since 2009 thanks guys. jrm53
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Old 02-11-2023, 03:22 PM
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I was out in the shop examining 1051 again, Noted a difference on the back strap. If you look at the upper left corner of the field, there is a hole. The flat surface of a pin is visible. So I took the back grip/strap off to have a closer look. Sure enough, the hammer spring plunger cup is retained by a small flat headed pin. Reminds me off a Colt 1911 back strap.
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Old 02-11-2023, 08:14 PM
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Froggie, I have read of the 950, 27 were scrapped. Or 23 scrapped.
Of the remaining, they were completed and sold to the public in the 30K, 60K and 80K serial number range. Just what I have read.
Mike, from what I've read, the steel frames were produced around the same time as your pre-39 but not assembled until after the Bangor-Punta takeover. I wonder if it's possible that some of the 23 or27 reportedly scrapped might have actually been assembled as pre-39's?
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Old 02-12-2023, 02:29 PM
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Trey, I dont know exactly when the steel frames were made. I have read and heard that some of the "X" numbered prototype 9MM autos were made with steel frames. Notably X46, made OCT.28, 1948. And X49, Dec,21, 1949. Were these two frames pulled from a rack of completed steel frames or two that were made prior to the other steel frames? I dont have a clue.
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Old 02-13-2023, 08:27 AM
Tntcwg3 Tntcwg3 is offline
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Trey, I dont know exactly when the steel frames were made. I have read and heard that some of the "X" numbered prototype 9MM autos were made with steel frames. Notably X46, made OCT.28, 1948. And X49, Dec,21, 1949. Were these two frames pulled from a rack of completed steel frames or two that were made prior to the other steel frames? I dont have a clue.
Mike, from what I've read, the frames were mfg'd in the mid 50's but were put into storage until the mid 60's. I'm not sure as to when S&W actually serialized the frames, but I'd assume that it was sometime during the assembly process based on the fact that there were some "special" s/n's assigned for special orders. I could see a resourceful assembler building a steel frame from one of those 950 frames sitting in storage if he had knowledge of their location and access to them. Just a theory anyway.
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Old 04-19-2023, 04:25 PM
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I have examined 1051 a little more closely since I got it ... The gun meets all of McMillan(')s criteria for a pre-39, with 3 notable exceptions:
1. the frame is steel, not alloy.
2. there is no S&W trademark stamped on the right side of the frame.
3. there is no "P" stamped on the left trigger guard.
There are no other stamps or markings on the frame other than 1051... ship(ed) out to Evaluators.
I tell ya, Mike, this is one very interesting Pre!

However, the "steel" frame aspect on a Pre-39 seems absurd.

Please do the following test to verify:
Remove any wood or otherwise loose parts;
Eject magazine;
Firmly grasp dust shield and hit yourself about the head. should it fracture or bend at any point, it's steel.

Later.
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Old 04-19-2023, 06:29 PM
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Hello DC. Im way ahead of you. Did the magnet test first, it stuck. I tried your test next. Your test was inconclusive, in that Im half Croatian and half Irish. Did not hurt my head or effect the frame in any manner. Must be a good, steel frame.
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Last edited by gmborkovic; 04-19-2023 at 06:29 PM. Reason: spelling
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