39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21

Here is my 39 no dash S/N 108919 Illinois State Police pistol. Now I need to find an extractor. Over all in pretty good condition for being a duty pistol. Anyone able to give a date of manufacture?







I got to shoot my 39 ISP today. Here are the results. Fired 18 rounds @ 10 yards. Sighted center mass. My reloads 125gr LRN, 3.9gr W231, Winchester cases.

Is the extractor broken, or do you just want a spare for it? The extractor on that Mod 39 doesn't look broken (of course that doesn't mean its not), it is just the intermediate style used late in the No Dash production. It is similar to the 39-2 style extractor, just bigger. S&W put it out to appease those complaining about the long style extractor until the 39-2 came out.

Anyway, it looks like you have a nice Mod 39 there. Enjoy it.

I don't think that gap in the extractor about the middle of the cocking serrations is supposed to be there.

jdh said:

I don't think that gap in the extractor about the middle of the cocking serrations is supposed to be there.

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I'm not saying that it isn't broken, I am saying that the quick fix that S&W put on the ISP long extractor looks exactly the same as that. Due to the failure of some of their pistols the ISP wanted S&W to make an immediate fix to the 39's they were receiving, so a spring loaded half extractor was fitted into the slide with the back half being just a blanking panel. If this is one of those models (the SN is in the right range for this feature), it isn't broken.

The ISP was a pioneer in the adoption of the 9mm for duty carry, so it's extremely neat to have found one of those old warriors. I believe that property stamping was done by the factory. It's a pretty late in the Model 39 serial number sequence, so probably dates to around 1969. Very cool gun, thanks for sharing it with us.

FirebirdV8 said:

I'm not saying that it isn't broken, I am saying that the quick fix that S&W put on the ISP long extractor looks exactly the same as that. Due to the failure of some of their pistols the ISP wanted S&W to make an immediate fix to the 39's they were receiving, so a spring loaded half extractor was fitted into the slide with the back half being just a blanking panel. If this is one of those models (the SN is in the right range for this feature), it isn't broken.

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Very interesting. I have seen other pictures of 39 no-dash pistols with that strange line on the extractor and always assumed it was broken or cracked. By that time in the production the slide serrations had moved forward as well.

Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?

BruceB said:

Very interesting. I have seen other pictures of 39 no-dash pistols with that strange line on the extractor and always assumed it was broken or cracked. By that time in the production the slide serrations had moved forward as well.

Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?

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I thought that same thing when I first saw one, but then I learned about the history of the ISP pistols. They were the first ones to discover that a heavily fired 39 no dash extractor was a weak point. They basically told S&W to fix it or go fly a kite, so they fixed it with a really wide version of the extractor coming out with the 39-2. On a side note I also realized through some limited metal work experience that metal rarely, if ever, breaks so nicely and cleanly in a straight line like that. Notice that there is also some spring tension holding the rear of the extractor, by the line, up. If it was a broken normal style no dash extractor it would be flopping around and not staying up on its own like that.

My research on the barrels is a less detailed, since most people don't show pictures of their barrels. However, from what I can tell, the higher twist rate rifling was maintained through around A250000, well into the -2 series before they switched to the new style barrel. It was probably just an economic choice for S&W. They ordered a large lot of the older style barrels so they didn't have to keep ordering them, and realized some bullet weights don't like the higher twist rate. So the new and old style barrels are intermixed throughout 39-2 production. So, in other words I don't know what kind of barrel any given 39/39-2 will have, but I can make an educated guess based on what I have seen.

FirebirdV8 said:

I thought that same thing when I first saw one, but then I learned about the history of the ISP pistols. They were the first ones to discover that a heavily fired 39 no dash extractor was a weak point. They basically told S&W to fix it or go fly a kite, so they fixed it with a really wide version of the extractor coming out with the 39-2.

Click to expand...

It's interesting that the "fix" was a short, wide extractor, but then they went to a narrow extractor on the 39-2 model.

Didn't the short-wide extractor end up on some of the second-gen pistols, like the 439 or 539 ? They must have found some ISP spares laying around

At the risk of totally hi-jacking this thread, my 39 no-dash 316xx has a slide stop lever that sticks out of the frame on the right side well past the vertical plane of the slide, but the 39-2 is pretty much even with the edge of the slide. Is that normal, or do I have an improper replacement in the 39 ?

Back on topic - nice ISP 39 ! I doubt I'll ever run across one of those way out here in the upper left corner, but it's something I look for.

BruceB said:

It's interesting that the "fix" was a short, wide extractor, but then they went to a narrow extractor on the 39-2 model.

Didn't the short-wide extractor end up on some of the second-gen pistols, like the 439 or 539 ? They must have found some ISP spares laying around

At the risk of totally hi-jacking this thread, my 39 no-dash 316xx has a slide stop lever that sticks out of the frame on the right side well past the vertical plane of the slide, but the 39-2 is pretty much even with the edge of the slide. Is that normal, or do I have an improper replacement in the 39 ?

Back on topic - nice ISP 39 ! I doubt I'll ever run across one of those way out here in the upper left corner, but it's something I look for.

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The early 2nd gens with the short wide extractors were another story altogether. Basically S&W wanted a better extractor. The stories I have heard are that it is a reliable extractor, but not any better than the long skinny style, so they stuck with the old "its not broke, so lets not fix it".

On your slide stop, most no-dashes I have seen have the longer slide stop, mine included. I'm not sure about why, but it is one of the 39-2 changes.

Now back on topic .... The ISP Model 39's were a unique side story in the 39 series, and leads to the adoption of the 59 series and the "wonder-nines" that came later. They are a nice piece of history that is often forgotten by the gun history people. Keep that one in good shape, but don't just let it sit either. They are great guns.

Thank you all for your comments.

"FirebirdV8 Is the extractor broken, or do you just want a spare for it?"

I wasn't sure at first I thought that all the 39 no dashes had the long extractor. I put an empty case in and it ejected just fine. You are correct about the metalwork. The ends of the extractor have been filed and are not consistent with a break. I am glad I didn't try to fix something that isn't broke.

"BruceB Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?"

The barrel in this 39 is 6 lands & grooves.

A friend of mine's father had this box of 9mm from the ISP. His father was kind enough to give me this box of ammo to go with my pistol. The headstamp is WCC+P+ 83. Oh and I don't plan on firing this ammo.

Pretty rare piece with that extractor; wish I could find one.

On the slide stop pin protrusion on the right side of the frame. The longer pin was intended for use with the dust cover, which snapped around the right end of the pin. When they omitted the grooves for the dust cover from the front of the frame, they introduced a shorter pin. Your short pin gun should lack the grooves for the dust cover, if the slide stop and frame came out of the factory together.

The wide short extractor was one of the recommendations made by our range folks along with a few other modifications. Our range people worked very closely with S&W for a lot of years on various modifications which ultimately resulted in the 3rd gen autos.
Most of our 39-nothing were converted over to the wide short extractor. Might have been a some early 39-nothing that were issued and then bought by retirees before being converted. The one pictured below is the one I was issued. You will see on the top of the slide an indent for the roll pin which holds the extractor in place. Yours has the same roll pin. The older long extractors did not have that roll pin in that location.
Yours would have been in the later issue of the 39-nothing before going to the 39-2. My inventory number is in the 900 range and my serial number is about 2500 less than yours. Most likely yours would have been issued in 1969 or 1970 time frame. Mine was in the first batch rolled out to the road Troops in 1968.
FYI on the inventory number. Back then state regs said that all equipment over a certain value had to have an inventory number afixed to it. Serial numbers did not meet the state regs. Even squad cars had to have an separate inventory number. By the time the 39-2 models came around the reg was modified and unique serial numbers could be substituted for inventory numbers.
Using 115 gr loads mine shoots like a Model 52. Sub-2" groups all day long at 25 yds. Unfortunately, I can't but my 39 can. I don't know how many thousands of rds have been thru mine. A lot. In addition to the shooting to smooth it out the range guys did a heck of a job on my trigger. Super smooth and just the right weight pull. Even if mine didn't have the sentimental attachment I still wouldn't sell it.

Added range results see page 1. No problems with the extractor fired 50 rounds no stoppages.

If you are still looking for an extractor or maybe to get an extra one (I picked up an extra for my 39) here's a link....

Extractor, Old Style, NI

At the last training weekend event I participated in, I grabbed my 39 no-dash for the 50yd accuracy portion, and completely blew away the others with their collection of Glocks, Sigs, and 1911 variants and clones in any caliber. That was with 115 gr FMJ commercial bulk reloads, and sweat fogging up my shooting glasses.

I was so happy with it, I used it for the rest of the day, even though it meant lots more magazine reloading and tactical reload situations. Of course, I neglected to bring the single-stack 9mm magazine holders, so I managed to shed two of my magazines from the .45 size holders running through a multi-target course.

The old M39 with the 6-groove barrel still outshoots everything else I own, except maybe the Model 41.

625smith said:

Thank you all for your comments.

"FirebirdV8 Is the extractor broken, or do you just want a spare for it?"

I wasn't sure at first I thought that all the 39 no dashes had the long extractor. I put an empty case in and it ejected just fine. You are correct about the metalwork. The ends of the extractor have been filed and are not consistent with a break. I am glad I didn't try to fix something that isn't broke.

"BruceB Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?"

The barrel in this 39 is 6 lands & grooves.

A friend of mine's father had this box of 9mm from the ISP. His father was kind enough to give me this box of ammo to go with my pistol. The headstamp is WCC+P+ 83. Oh and I don't plan on firing this ammo.

Click to expand...

Remember the old days of Super Vel 90gr JHP!!!! and this Model 39 pistol in hands of the police, They were used in this guns and for shure were a +P+ rated factory ammo!!!!

Hello all my 39 aficionados. That late long, wide extractor is an interesting
variation. Seems to have appeared around #108XXX to solve an eminent
function problem. Will somebody please post a pic of a broken long ext.
I have never seen one broken. Best

With the different extractor styles--were there changes to the slide,
also? Or can any 39 take any extractor style?

625 smith,
You have acquired a nice 39. I would love to have an ISP 39 with the modified wide extractor. As you know the Illinois State Police was the first major Police Dept to adopt the 39 and as ISP Capt has stated, they worked closely with S&W to adapt the original extractor to the modified extractor on your pistol. If you listen to ISP Capt describe his pistols long usage you should be confident your pistol should work out just fine. I would NOT seek to replace that extractor with the original long extractor design. The mod was made to improve extractor reliability until a better design was introduced in the next generations of SMITH 9`S.
As Im sure you know, never manually operate the slide to battery. Most extractor failures are traced to this. Ive always slingshoted or dropped slide from lock back with the slide stop to initially charge. Just a reminder.
Good Luck with your 39
Im jealous.
Jim

If I read it right, post #16 claims that Super Vel 9 mm was +P+.

Lee Juras, owner of Super Vel, published a report on his test of military 9 mm "submachinegun" ammunition in the March, 1972 Shooting Times. It was all well within standard pressure, including WWII German black tip.

US commercial and Super Vel 9 mm were included for comparison and also were within standard pressures. The S&W/F was higher than the Super Vel.

The lowest tested was 24,800 while the highest (Canadian 1945) was 32,500.

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No. 3 pressure barrel; min. chamber; 6 inches long; WRA .225 x .500 copper crusher; tarage table 11366; 72 degrees F .. 55 per cent R/ H. Velocity instrumental at 20 feet.

Super Vel 9mm 90 JHP 31,000 (ave. pressure) 1415 FPS

Super Vel 9mm 112 JSP 31.700 (ave. pressure) 1349 FPS

S&W/F 9mm 100 JHP 32,100 (ave. pressure) 1433 FPS

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And then, here's a picture of the original WW 100 @ 1300 FMJ "Q" load for the ISP in 1967/68.
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