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Old 08-17-2011, 11:25 PM
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Thumbs up 39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21

Here is my 39 no dash S/N 108919 Illinois State Police pistol. Now I need to find an extractor. Over all in pretty good condition for being a duty pistol. Anyone able to give a date of manufacture?







I got to shoot my 39 ISP today. Here are the results. Fired 18 rounds @ 10 yards. Sighted center mass. My reloads 125gr LRN, 3.9gr W231, Winchester cases.


Last edited by 625smith; 02-17-2018 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:46 PM
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Is the extractor broken, or do you just want a spare for it? The extractor on that Mod 39 doesn't look broken (of course that doesn't mean its not), it is just the intermediate style used late in the No Dash production. It is similar to the 39-2 style extractor, just bigger. S&W put it out to appease those complaining about the long style extractor until the 39-2 came out.

Anyway, it looks like you have a nice Mod 39 there. Enjoy it.
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:34 PM
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I don't think that gap in the extractor about the middle of the cocking serrations is supposed to be there.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:41 PM
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I don't think that gap in the extractor about the middle of the cocking serrations is supposed to be there.
I'm not saying that it isn't broken, I am saying that the quick fix that S&W put on the ISP long extractor looks exactly the same as that. Due to the failure of some of their pistols the ISP wanted S&W to make an immediate fix to the 39's they were receiving, so a spring loaded half extractor was fitted into the slide with the back half being just a blanking panel. If this is one of those models (the SN is in the right range for this feature), it isn't broken.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:59 PM
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The ISP was a pioneer in the adoption of the 9mm for duty carry, so it's extremely neat to have found one of those old warriors. I believe that property stamping was done by the factory. It's a pretty late in the Model 39 serial number sequence, so probably dates to around 1969. Very cool gun, thanks for sharing it with us.
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdV8 View Post
I'm not saying that it isn't broken, I am saying that the quick fix that S&W put on the ISP long extractor looks exactly the same as that. Due to the failure of some of their pistols the ISP wanted S&W to make an immediate fix to the 39's they were receiving, so a spring loaded half extractor was fitted into the slide with the back half being just a blanking panel. If this is one of those models (the SN is in the right range for this feature), it isn't broken.
Very interesting. I have seen other pictures of 39 no-dash pistols with that strange line on the extractor and always assumed it was broken or cracked. By that time in the production the slide serrations had moved forward as well.

Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:55 PM
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Very interesting. I have seen other pictures of 39 no-dash pistols with that strange line on the extractor and always assumed it was broken or cracked. By that time in the production the slide serrations had moved forward as well.

Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?
I thought that same thing when I first saw one, but then I learned about the history of the ISP pistols. They were the first ones to discover that a heavily fired 39 no dash extractor was a weak point. They basically told S&W to fix it or go fly a kite, so they fixed it with a really wide version of the extractor coming out with the 39-2. On a side note I also realized through some limited metal work experience that metal rarely, if ever, breaks so nicely and cleanly in a straight line like that. Notice that there is also some spring tension holding the rear of the extractor, by the line, up. If it was a broken normal style no dash extractor it would be flopping around and not staying up on its own like that.

My research on the barrels is a less detailed, since most people don't show pictures of their barrels. However, from what I can tell, the higher twist rate rifling was maintained through around A250000, well into the -2 series before they switched to the new style barrel. It was probably just an economic choice for S&W. They ordered a large lot of the older style barrels so they didn't have to keep ordering them, and realized some bullet weights don't like the higher twist rate. So the new and old style barrels are intermixed throughout 39-2 production. So, in other words I don't know what kind of barrel any given 39/39-2 will have, but I can make an educated guess based on what I have seen.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdV8 View Post
I thought that same thing when I first saw one, but then I learned about the history of the ISP pistols. They were the first ones to discover that a heavily fired 39 no dash extractor was a weak point. They basically told S&W to fix it or go fly a kite, so they fixed it with a really wide version of the extractor coming out with the 39-2.
It's interesting that the "fix" was a short, wide extractor, but then they went to a narrow extractor on the 39-2 model.

Didn't the short-wide extractor end up on some of the second-gen pistols, like the 439 or 539 ? They must have found some ISP spares laying around

At the risk of totally hi-jacking this thread, my 39 no-dash 316xx has a slide stop lever that sticks out of the frame on the right side well past the vertical plane of the slide, but the 39-2 is pretty much even with the edge of the slide. Is that normal, or do I have an improper replacement in the 39 ?

Back on topic - nice ISP 39 ! I doubt I'll ever run across one of those way out here in the upper left corner, but it's something I look for.

Last edited by BruceB; 08-18-2011 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceB View Post
It's interesting that the "fix" was a short, wide extractor, but then they went to a narrow extractor on the 39-2 model.

Didn't the short-wide extractor end up on some of the second-gen pistols, like the 439 or 539 ? They must have found some ISP spares laying around

At the risk of totally hi-jacking this thread, my 39 no-dash 316xx has a slide stop lever that sticks out of the frame on the right side well past the vertical plane of the slide, but the 39-2 is pretty much even with the edge of the slide. Is that normal, or do I have an improper replacement in the 39 ?

Back on topic - nice ISP 39 ! I doubt I'll ever run across one of those way out here in the upper left corner, but it's something I look for.
The early 2nd gens with the short wide extractors were another story altogether. Basically S&W wanted a better extractor. The stories I have heard are that it is a reliable extractor, but not any better than the long skinny style, so they stuck with the old "its not broke, so lets not fix it".

On your slide stop, most no-dashes I have seen have the longer slide stop, mine included. I'm not sure about why, but it is one of the 39-2 changes.

Now back on topic .... The ISP Model 39's were a unique side story in the 39 series, and leads to the adoption of the 59 series and the "wonder-nines" that came later. They are a nice piece of history that is often forgotten by the gun history people. Keep that one in good shape, but don't just let it sit either. They are great guns.
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Old 08-18-2011, 10:54 PM
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Thank you all for your comments.

"FirebirdV8 Is the extractor broken, or do you just want a spare for it?"

I wasn't sure at first I thought that all the 39 no dashes had the long extractor. I put an empty case in and it ejected just fine. You are correct about the metalwork. The ends of the extractor have been filed and are not consistent with a break. I am glad I didn't try to fix something that isn't broke.

"BruceB Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?"

The barrel in this 39 is 6 lands & grooves.

A friend of mine's father had this box of 9mm from the ISP. His father was kind enough to give me this box of ammo to go with my pistol. The headstamp is WCC+P+ 83. Oh and I don't plan on firing this ammo.




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Old 08-18-2011, 11:45 PM
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Pretty rare piece with that extractor; wish I could find one.

On the slide stop pin protrusion on the right side of the frame. The longer pin was intended for use with the dust cover, which snapped around the right end of the pin. When they omitted the grooves for the dust cover from the front of the frame, they introduced a shorter pin. Your short pin gun should lack the grooves for the dust cover, if the slide stop and frame came out of the factory together.

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Old 08-19-2011, 10:17 PM
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The wide short extractor was one of the recommendations made by our range folks along with a few other modifications. Our range people worked very closely with S&W for a lot of years on various modifications which ultimately resulted in the 3rd gen autos.
Most of our 39-nothing were converted over to the wide short extractor. Might have been a some early 39-nothing that were issued and then bought by retirees before being converted. The one pictured below is the one I was issued. You will see on the top of the slide an indent for the roll pin which holds the extractor in place. Yours has the same roll pin. The older long extractors did not have that roll pin in that location.
Yours would have been in the later issue of the 39-nothing before going to the 39-2. My inventory number is in the 900 range and my serial number is about 2500 less than yours. Most likely yours would have been issued in 1969 or 1970 time frame. Mine was in the first batch rolled out to the road Troops in 1968.
FYI on the inventory number. Back then state regs said that all equipment over a certain value had to have an inventory number afixed to it. Serial numbers did not meet the state regs. Even squad cars had to have an separate inventory number. By the time the 39-2 models came around the reg was modified and unique serial numbers could be substituted for inventory numbers.
Using 115 gr loads mine shoots like a Model 52. Sub-2" groups all day long at 25 yds. Unfortunately, I can't but my 39 can. I don't know how many thousands of rds have been thru mine. A lot. In addition to the shooting to smooth it out the range guys did a heck of a job on my trigger. Super smooth and just the right weight pull. Even if mine didn't have the sentimental attachment I still wouldn't sell it.

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Old 08-21-2011, 10:20 PM
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Added range results see page 1. No problems with the extractor fired 50 rounds no stoppages.
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Old 08-23-2011, 09:41 PM
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If you are still looking for an extractor or maybe to get an extra one (I picked up an extra for my 39) here's a link....

Extractor, Old Style, NI
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Old 08-24-2011, 10:42 PM
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At the last training weekend event I participated in, I grabbed my 39 no-dash for the 50yd accuracy portion, and completely blew away the others with their collection of Glocks, Sigs, and 1911 variants and clones in any caliber. That was with 115 gr FMJ commercial bulk reloads, and sweat fogging up my shooting glasses.

I was so happy with it, I used it for the rest of the day, even though it meant lots more magazine reloading and tactical reload situations. Of course, I neglected to bring the single-stack 9mm magazine holders, so I managed to shed two of my magazines from the .45 size holders running through a multi-target course.

The old M39 with the 6-groove barrel still outshoots everything else I own, except maybe the Model 41.
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 625smith View Post
Thank you all for your comments.

"FirebirdV8 Is the extractor broken, or do you just want a spare for it?"

I wasn't sure at first I thought that all the 39 no dashes had the long extractor. I put an empty case in and it ejected just fine. You are correct about the metalwork. The ends of the extractor have been filed and are not consistent with a break. I am glad I didn't try to fix something that isn't broke.

"BruceB Did those late 39 no-dash examples have the newer 5 land barrel rifling?"

The barrel in this 39 is 6 lands & grooves.

A friend of mine's father had this box of 9mm from the ISP. His father was kind enough to give me this box of ammo to go with my pistol. The headstamp is WCC+P+ 83. Oh and I don't plan on firing this ammo.



Remember the old days of Super Vel 90gr JHP!!!! and this Model 39 pistol in hands of the police, They were used in this guns and for shure were a +P+ rated factory ammo!!!!
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Old 03-11-2020, 04:52 PM
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Hello all my 39 aficionados. That late long, wide extractor is an interesting
variation. Seems to have appeared around #108XXX to solve an eminent
function problem. Will somebody please post a pic of a broken long ext.
I have never seen one broken. Best
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Old 03-11-2020, 07:12 PM
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With the different extractor styles--were there changes to the slide,
also? Or can any 39 take any extractor style?
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Old 03-11-2020, 08:50 PM
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625 smith,
You have acquired a nice 39. I would love to have an ISP 39 with the modified wide extractor. As you know the Illinois State Police was the first major Police Dept to adopt the 39 and as ISP Capt has stated, they worked closely with S&W to adapt the original extractor to the modified extractor on your pistol. If you listen to ISP Capt describe his pistols long usage you should be confident your pistol should work out just fine. I would NOT seek to replace that extractor with the original long extractor design. The mod was made to improve extractor reliability until a better design was introduced in the next generations of SMITH 9`S.
As Im sure you know, never manually operate the slide to battery. Most extractor failures are traced to this. Ive always slingshoted or dropped slide from lock back with the slide stop to initially charge. Just a reminder.
Good Luck with your 39
Im jealous.
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Old 03-11-2020, 10:01 PM
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If I read it right, post #16 claims that Super Vel 9 mm was +P+.

Lee Juras, owner of Super Vel, published a report on his test of military 9 mm "submachinegun" ammunition in the March, 1972 Shooting Times. It was all well within standard pressure, including WWII German black tip.

US commercial and Super Vel 9 mm were included for comparison and also were within standard pressures. The S&W/F was higher than the Super Vel.

The lowest tested was 24,800 while the highest (Canadian 1945) was 32,500.

======================================


No. 3 pressure barrel; min. chamber; 6 inches long; WRA .225 x .500 copper crusher; tarage table 11366; 72 degrees F .. 55 per cent R/ H. Velocity instrumental at 20 feet.

Super Vel 9mm 90 JHP 31,000 (ave. pressure) 1415 FPS

Super Vel 9mm 112 JSP 31.700 (ave. pressure) 1349 FPS

S&W/F 9mm 100 JHP 32,100 (ave. pressure) 1433 FPS

==========================

And then, here's a picture of the original WW 100 @ 1300 FMJ "Q" load for the ISP in 1967/68.
.
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Old 03-12-2020, 04:38 AM
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Wow! This is some kind of zombie thread!

M39s still are the best!
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Old 03-12-2020, 07:06 AM
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Default Super Vel ammo in Model 39 semiauto

Quote:
Originally Posted by SG-688 View Post
If I read it right, post #16 claims that Super Vel 9 mm was +P+.

Lee Juras, owner of Super Vel, published a report on his test of military 9 mm "submachinegun" ammunition in the March, 1972 Shooting Times. It was all well within standard pressure, including WWII German black tip.

US commercial and Super Vel 9 mm were included for comparison and also were within standard pressures. The S&W/F was higher than the Super Vel.

The lowest tested was 24,800 while the highest (Canadian 1945) was 32,500.

======================================


No. 3 pressure barrel; min. chamber; 6 inches long; WRA .225 x .500 copper crusher; tarage table 11366; 72 degrees F .. 55 per cent R/ H. Velocity instrumental at 20 feet.

Super Vel 9mm 90 JHP 31,000 (ave. pressure) 1415 FPS

Super Vel 9mm 112 JSP 31.700 (ave. pressure) 1349 FPS

S&W/F 9mm 100 JHP 32,100 (ave. pressure) 1433 FPS

==========================

And then, here's a picture of the original WW 100 @ 1300 FMJ "Q" load for the ISP in 1967/68.
.
Thank you for sharing your tables on stated values of Super-Vel ammo the adverised velociyy for 90gr JHP was 1465fps!!! the tested 1415fps!! thatīs the real velocity, what I did not now that this velocity was obtained at a an average of only31000psi, when the standard non +p loads for 9mm lists up to 35000psi giving only 1150fps velocity (but 124gr FMJ)
Thanks for sharing, you have the objective evidence of the tests!!!..
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Roberto Renauld
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Old 03-12-2020, 07:21 AM
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Dear Forists, as a "super-enthusiast" of Model 439, I would like some information onthe Model 439 (1980 era) with adjustable sights, any body owns one of this???, I will like some info regarding accuracy, best loads and range or hunting experience with this gun
Best Regards
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Old 03-13-2020, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Roberto Renauld View Post
Dear Forists, as a "super-enthusiast" of Model 439, I would like some information onthe Model 439 (1980 era) with adjustable sights, any body owns one of this???, I will like some info regarding accuracy, best loads and range or hunting experience with this gun
Best Regards
Robert Renauld
The only experience I have with the 439 was putting down white tail deer along the road that had been injured by getting hit by vehicles. I generally used head shots with our issue W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ ammo. The 9 MM is an effective cartridge if you put the bullet in the right location. Our issue 115 grain +P+ produced the same results on deer as I achieved using a 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum out of a 4” model 66.

I always got good accuracy out of 115 grain jacketed hollow point ammo. My agency used reloaded 9 MM ammo with a jacketed truncated cone FMJ bullet in my Academy class that was pretty accurate. I don’t know if this was a 115 grain or 123 grain bullet but my 439 was a very good shooting service grade pistol. The Sierra 115 grain JHP always produced good to superior accuracy for me in reloads.

As for accuracy the typical 439 was more accurate than the Officers on my Department could shoot. One of the range Officers from my class challenged the top Cadet shooter to a competition at 25 yards at bullseye targets. The Range Officer (Jerry C.) shot a random cadets 439 upside down while our top shot Mike S. shot his 439 right side up.

The Range Officer posted a better score with all 10’s and numerous X’s. The Top shooting Cadet had shot very well but Jerry C. was a expert shot and had won many pistol competitions in his day. Jerry was in his mid to late 50’s when I went through the Academy and Mike S. was in his mid twenties.

Last edited by VASCAR2; 03-13-2020 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:37 PM
SG-688 SG-688 is offline
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The good shooting WW practice bullet in this picture is 110 grains.

115 gr. JRN on the left for comparison.
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39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21-9-mm-winch-110-swc-w-115-jrn-base-7-08-jpg  

Last edited by SG-688; 03-13-2020 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 04-05-2020, 09:13 AM
rick1959 rick1959 is offline
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39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21 39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21 39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21 39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21 39 No dash ISP pistol/Range results added 8/21  
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I'm glad to see this thread is still breathing and with such good info! I ran across it looking to find a source of extractors for my 1966 mfg S&W 39 no dash. Mine is in near mint condition and has been fired little. But, with the events going right now, it reminds me to keep anything I own, should be kept with spare parts. You never know if something may get pressed into service some day....Thanks for looking, Rick :-)
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1911, commercial, extractor, headstamp, m39, model 39, model 41, model 52, serrations, tactical, winchester

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