I have a couple of 3Gs that I CC. My favorite is a 3914 LS, and it has the safety. I took a CC course in April, and the instructor spent some time on the cons of having one. Notice I didn't say anything about pros?

As I have never had an occasion to reach for my pistol, I wonder how much of the extra second he claims a pistol without the safety will provide, is actually the case.

Sure would appreciate member's opinions pro and con. As you can tell, I'm not on a mission. I don't even know how to go about disconnecting the magazine safety, let along actually doing so. Thanks.

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NRA Lifer Since 1971

I usually buy my guns without the magazine safety, mostly because they are a nuisance in the clearing process at the end of the stage in competition.

However, I don't for the life of me see how a magazine safety has any influence on draw and time to first shot. Some don't like thumb safeties, but again, training cures that problem, and disengaging the thumb safety adds NO time to draw and time to first shot. Watch the 1911 shooters in USPSA single stack. I'm not the fastest draw at the match, but I can draw and fire a High Power from buzzer to bang in 0.9 sec, and a High Power has both a thumb and magazine safety.

Your post increases my suspicion that some people are getting certified to teach CC courses that should stick to the script and not ad lib. Details of design features are definitely NOT in the script, and IMHO, none of his business.

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Science plus Art

The pros of the magazine safety, IMO, are that it is a kill switch in the event of a gun grab - and in situations where your pistol has to be taken off your person, lock box at the jail, trunk of the car, ect.

Mas Ayoob has written about many officers whos lives were saved by the magazine safety in their pistol. When the officers felt control of their handgun slipping away in tussels with felons, they simply hit the mag release and rendered their primary handgun into a paperweight.......while cancelling the felons ticket with their BUG. I love a happy ending.

The only two cons I've heard of, mostly from "tactical" types, is that it somehow effects trigger pull - it does in the Browning High power but not on any S&W I've ever shot - and that it precludes firing the round in the tube while changing mags.

Those that proclaim mag safeties "precludes firing the round in the tube" don't know how to operate a S&W 3rd generation pistol. By not releasing the trigger all the way forward, after a shot, you can still fire the round in the tube, with no mag inserted, in a S&W 3rd gen pistol equipped with a mag safety.

Something I've never understood is WHY do you need to fire the round in the tube while changing mags? Are you backing away from an advancing attacker and suddenly feel the need to reload? Are you in the middle of a huge empty parking lot with no cover? Why? I think that the folks who protest mag safeties based on the fact that SOME pistols may be incapable of firing the round in the tube during a mag change......should worry more about their training and tactics, IMO.

I have mag safeties in all my duty guns and several of my off duty semi auto's. I like them and consider them a positive feature. Regards 18DAI

Training is the deciding factor in these encounters. Unfortunatly, many of the LEO's on the board forget one element of training that only LEO's can effectivly recieve.
A LEO contacting ANY ONE is always aware that the contact can go south at any time. With the types of situations encountered on a daily basis, their "standard responce" muscle memory is always on alert.

The average CCW holder is in that same position MAYBE 4 times in their lives. It is well documented that a manual safety that requires a "mental decission" and physical follow through will add 1 to 3 seconds to the time of someone who finds themselvs in a Fight or Flight situation. For LEO's who deal with that every day, it's a non-issue. To the rest of us, it may be the differance between life and death.

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Gerry

I was reading Jeff Cooper's old writings online, and in the volume contained Barry Needham's journal of his visit to Orange Gunsite before Jeff Cooper sold it.On the last day it rained on the range, Col. Cooper commanded his students on the line, and on the last drill in a desert rainstorm Mr. Needham had to do this drill. In his words:


Then we come to the man on man competition. Two people, side by side. Three eight inch steel plates at ranges between 7 and 15 meters. Drop two plates, reload, drop the third plate. First person done wins that round. Double elimination torment. At the end there is only one. Sounds easy, it isn't. You can tell if you are ahead or behind. The pressure builds in each round. I won the first round. Second round, I miss the second plate but pick it up with a fast second shot. I'm behind. Reload, drop the mag, new mag, fast - fast - fast, pick up the target, frontsightpresss! My plate goes flying backwards with a center hit of 10mm a few hundredths of a second before the other plate tips over.

I check my weapon, the magazine is hanging half out of the butt of the pistol - I hadn't seated it fully. As I start to correct the situation Dennis quizzes me,

"Did you notice what happened?"

"Yes Sir!"

"Why didn't you seat your magazine fully?"

"I was behind Sir! Second and third rules of a gun fight Sir! Cheat and win Sir!"

I won that round, I guess I came up with the correct answer. I will never, ever, have a magazine safety on one of my tactical pistols.



The full article is here and is worth a carefee read with a cup of coffee sometime :Barry's Orange Gunsite Trip.

So theres one example where a magazine disconnect *might* have hurt .

Speaking for myself as a citizen who carries, I am factually not that good with a pistol to have to worry about 'shooting during the reload' and likely will not be for some moons to come.

In fact a magazine disconnect is a positive reason why im collecting S&W semi autos right now-since I live somewhere where the only legal places to store my weapons are a police armory and my car,all I need do to prevent usage of my weapons in case of theft is keep the magazines on my person.The bad guys can steal them, but until the felons get new mags the guns are paperweights.Since S&W semi-auto mags are special order only in these parts, that will buy me enough time to notify the police before the guns can be used in a crime.

A second benefit of the mag disconnect that I ADORED when I had the 4506 was securing the gun around roomates.
I moved in with a friend temporarily only to discover that he and his wife have a , uh, spirited marriage.Lots of raised voices and slammed doors.Being able to 'safe' the weapon from tampering by either party when I was away was a tremendous relief.I was too broke to buy a gun safe, and having an external lock requires a key .........and external locks can be defeated.

Another positive benefit of the mag disconnect for armed citizens-on the spot security.Visiting a friends house and they have kids?Simply take out the mag and boom, gun is rendered inert.A former LEO at a gun store once said that for nightstand duty his former partner used to keep a loaded S&W semiauto by the bed-mag out. If he heard a bump in the night, the mag went into the gun and out he came to check it out.

The need for it hasn't happened yet, but if im staying over at a new girlfriend's place the magazine is coming with me whenever the weapon is out of my sight. Yeah, I have trust issues when it comes to my guns.

Wow, this post was way longer than I intended, but as it has happened for me the magazine disconnect is a feature to celebrate and not to despise.Again im not a LEO or military anymore, just an ordinary guy.

I know an officer that had this very thing happen. As he was losing control of his 5906, he pushed the magazine release. It saved his life.

As for the competition issue, I removed the magazine safety from my 5906 because of what I perceive as an unsafe practice of showing clear at matches. The R/Os had gotten to the point where they were making me show clear, then inserting an empty magazine, dropping the slide and pulling the trigger. De-cocking wasn't good enough.

This was another reason I switched to revolvers for competition. I'm beginning to find that even that chaps some of them.

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

I can certainly see the safety side of the magazine disconnect from a former LEO's eyes, however I still can't help but opine the development of the magazine disconnect safety is a feature demanded by the anti-gunners.

As far a safeties go, I find them no big deal and simply a matter of training. I wound up with a Ruger P-85 as my duty weapon. Decocking the P-85 also puts the weapon on safe, but if the weapon is left on safe, the trigger is also disconnected. I simply had to build the habit of de-cock, return safety to fire position, and holster.
Like 18DAI stated "it's all in the training!"

On this topic, doing some casual online research reveals that the first magazine disconnect safety was requested by the French for the Browning Hi-Power.

As far as the anti-gun position, I find it ironic that gun owners despise a mechanical feature based on what some firearm-ignorant person decided in a legislative chamber in another state. So what some **** put it as law that magazine disconnects are required in State X.It doesn't change the merits of the feature.

When the attorney looks at the jury and says "This man has so little regard for human life that he disconnected the magazine SAFETY of his pistol that the manufacturer, Smith and Wesson, deemed necessary for the safe operation of this weapon. This man is a cold blooded killer.....yada yada yada blah blah blah...." This I got from reading Masaad Ayoob,

By the way. I disconnected the mag safety on my 22 target pistol.

hmmm

I would've never removed mine except for the IDPA R/Os.

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N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

Actually, S&W sells both. CALIFORNIA demands the Mag Safety for roster guns. Most other states have no requirement for Mag-Safe. The saftey is to PREVENT the weapon from firing. In a self defense situation, you pulled the trigger with the intent to fire, So if you loose that argument, you have a VERY lousy lawyer.

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Gerry

In my reading of Massad Ayoob's articles, the point he makes in civil & criminal cases is proving that negligence was involved in the shoot.

The concept is this-Rather than argue that Joe Felony was shot trying to rob John Citizen, their goal is to spin the story so that it was in fact John Citizen who negligently discharged his firearm into Joe Felony.

Disabling the magazine disconnect is a point opposing counsel could use to establish negligence-after all, how upstanding is John Citizen if he's disabling handgun safety devices?

Unless youre using your gun for competition, why bother disabling it?

Hi all -

My view is, for civilian SD carry the pros of it outweigh the only con I can think of, not being able to fire during a possible tactical reload.

Even then, the time involved in finishing the reload so as to shoot again seems maybe less than the time, having shot the round in the chamber, to finish the reload w/the slide forward, chamber empty, and racking to rechamber.

Weighing the possibility of how often one might truly need to shoot in such a case against how often one might find good use of the advantages others have mentioned, I'll leave it in.
YMMV.

regards,

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Terry

I recently purchased a used 3914. When it arrived at the shop where I work part-time, I did a quick checkout and noticed the mag safety wasn't working. Since Illinois has a three day wait, anyway, I took the gun apart in the shop and found the mag disconnect "hook" was broken. The next day, I took a new serviceable part from home and installed it in my 'new' gun.

All my S&W third generation guns have the mag safety and I feel comfortable with it. I'm no expert and don't shoot competition, but can't see any logical reason to bypass a perfectly good safety mechanism.

No disrespect, but "I intended to fire, and I did," pretty much negates "negligence." Every documented statement regarding Mag-Safe has to do with "gun scuffle, or ACCIDENTAL fire." Any defense lawyer will attempt to discredit anything you say, so I feel more comfortable debating a dead guy over it.

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Gerry

Unless you're shooting competion, where the rules require you to drop the mag, rack the slide, and pull the trigger to display an unloaded gun, the mag disconnect is a valuable asset, entirely disregarded by mall ninjas. These are the people who somehow believe that in the unlikely event that they are ever in a shootout, that they will have the presence of mind to count their shots and do a tactical reload BEFORE the threat is gone. They think they're gonna have the manual dexterity to drop the mag, and reload another mag cooly, while not fumbling it or trying to put it in backwards. Then, even IF they have that skill, they firmly believe that they are going to need that ONE round in the 2 seconds between mags during that tactical reload. Of course, they have NO real life experience or can even find any actual occurences where a mag disconnect caused a victim to be shot, to support the benefit of no mag disconnect, despite the TONS of real life occurences where a mag disconnect saved a life (cops as well as civilians). They like to say "what if if need that one shot during my tactical reload", but then won't admit that even IF they need that one round and are able to do that tactical reload, that they now have an empty gun, with the slide not locked back, and since handguns aren't instant manstoppers, except a brain or spinal cord shot (good luck doing that during a tactical reload), they need two hands to reload while a wounded person (if they even hit him with that one shot) is bearing down on him. It's a total joke. I used to watch Rob Pincus on one of those tactical shows, and he was a small town cop with a year or so on a part time. SWAT team. He left the job after like 5 years How many ACTUAL shootings has he been in? Mall Ninjas watch him and say "Yeah. A mag disconnect can get me killed. I can't have one of those. Then they blame anti-gunners for them, while ignoring the fact that guns have had them for nearly 100 years, inclusing the Hi-Power, which is pretty much universally regarded as a fabulous gun.

Somebody show me ONE case where they got somebody hurt. I'll respond with a DOZEN where they saved a life.

My point precisely, kbm6893.

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Terry

Speak the truth!

Its not a thought that many of us who carry like to consider, but what if the so called street thug that tries something isn't some tweaked out drughead?

Criminals can take fighting classes too after all, and they can grab a gun from a civilian too.Just because it was concealed beforehand doesn't make any armed citizen immune to a well-trained criminal attempting a last-ditch disarm manouver-or his friend who snuck up behind you while you dealt with guy #1.

I know that's a lot of conjecture, but its my thought process that a magazine disconnect does more good than harm for those of us who aren't named Leatham.

That's what I took away from the OP as well. I think the instructor gave some bad and confusing info (or perhaps the OP misunderstood). A magazine safety has no bearing on draw and shoot time, unless it's not properly seated, but I doubt that's what the instructor was referring to. My assumption is that he was talking about a thumb safety, and was perhaps advocating a double-action gun w/out a safety (ala SIG, et al...or even a revolver). There's a school of thought that such guns present less hassle during stress and thus are better choices for self-defense, and for those who choose not to train or practice, that may indeed be the case. For them, point-and-shoot with the long pull of the double action may be the best option. For others who choose to invest the time in training and practice, there's no reason a thumb safety should present an obstacle to draw and shoot time.

I have been taught that in the real world, there are very very few documented cases of anyone actually performing a tactical reload in a real live-fire incident, let alone being killed due to something happening during such a tac-load. On the flipside, everyone will likely speed reload when the lead is really flying... you won't retain the magazine under duress if you think your weapon is running low unless you are very very highly trained.

There are lots of documented cases, however, of officers who "safe" their pistols in a physical altercation by dropping the magazine whereupon the mag-disco came into play.

In a class I took recently, we did some drills where we purposely started the drill with only a round in the chamber (mag out) and a holstered pistol. The goal was to get at least 2 rounds off to complete the drill.

The general perception was that, due to the mag disconnect on my CA-compliant M&P9, I would have no choice but to load the mag before taking 2 shots vs. some other students who had the option, but not mandated, to take a first shot with just the chambered round and then the follow-up. The overall timing was not particularly huge in terms of the efficiency of the two techniques. The main issue is that the sequence goes:

Draw --> fire (slide does not lock back) --> magazine in --> rack slide --> fire

versus

Draw --> magazine in --> fire --> fire (note there is no racking of the slide needed)

With practice, getting a mag into the gun quickly and effectively is a non-issue, I think.

The other issue to be aware of is that with some weapon systems, firing a single round in the chamber sans magazine may induce a (quasi-)Type III malfunction if one is unlucky, which you will have to remedy.

In the end, if anyone actually ever does perform a tac-load under live-fire, not performing it in a position of cover and/or relative safety makes for discussion about poor tactical choices more than anything else...

For the time being, I have decided to leave the magazine disconnect enabled in my M&P9.

Keep in mind fella's, that according to the last FBI stats I saw......a few years back.....anyone who has six shots in their handgun AND actually winds up involved in a shooting - will likely not need to reload at all. Regards 18DAI

Back in the mid 70's I worked for a University Police Department in Detroit. While off-duty I saw and interrupted a brutal strong arm robbery of an elderly man. After the fight and arrest, I held the suspect at gunpoint until DPD could get there and transport the badguy for me.

Later at the station, one of the Detroit Officers cornered me and asked if I always carried my gun like that? I was carring a Browning Hi-Power (with OEM mag safety) cocked and locked. Thinking he was pointing to that condition of my gun, I said yes and continued on. So did he. I looked at my Hi-Power and was shocked to note that during the struggle with the badguy, my mag had somehow fallen out rendering my gun useless should I have needed it for anything else than a sap or a paper weight. After retreating to the bathroom for privacy and after some deep breathes, I reloaded with my spare mag and felt lucky that I had resolved the incident without needing to fire.

Over time it has become just another funny story about something that happened a long long time ago. Probably wasn't that funny then and it is a lot less funny and interesting now, but it does illustrate a point.

Since then I have had numerous pistols with and without the mag safety. For me, in spite of the above, it is neither here nor there?

However, my best advise is make a decision. If you decide you don't want a pistol with the mag safety, you will be far better off chosing another pistol rather than disabling a safety device on one that the manufacturer has installed as OEM.

However, we are all members, in good standing of the Big Boys and Girls Club and we ride out our decisions both good and bad.

So there you are, a story and a thought as promised.

Oh! Almost forgot. The good thing about advise, it that it is free and you don't have to take it. Good luck!

I would think that the average CCW holder is not in the same position even once. I've never been in a situation where I needed to use my gun...and I fervently pray that I never am. That doesn't negate the need for training and preparation, of course.

I recently bought a Ruger SR9c and removed the magazine disconnect from it. I did so because it literally fell out when I removed the striker for cleaning, but mainly because there is a serious issue with damage to the striker in this pistol if it is dry fired without a magazine in place. (I also have a Ruger LC9, and without the magazine in place, the trigger is locked, so the damage potential is negated...and I didn't remove the magazine disconnect from that pistol.) I haven't and won't remove it from any other pistol I own as long as there is no potential damage to the striker/firing pin with dry firing. However, all my other pistols will fire without the magazine in place, so it's a moot point.

I chuckled when I read the thought that without a magazine someone who steals the gun cannot use it and the mags are special order.... Ha ha ha...

An M&P can be fired just fine with no mag and a mag safety. Of course you'll only fire the one in the pipe, but thinking the gun is completely unusable is pretty naive. All that is required is the mag safety lever be moved up. Obviously a guy that steals your gun can easily push the lever up with a pencil, a paint stir stick, even a sponge pushed in the mag well will immediately disable the mag safety. I've done it. Look at yours.

I disconnected the one on my .40. Why? I bought the gun for the ability to make loud noises when I pull the trigger. If the mag pops out 1/2" it would cease making loud noises. So let's say I pull the gun and I accidently drop the mag in the grass at night as a BG is attacking me? Or has anyone heard of M&P's dropping mags on their own? Seems like several fellas here have had it happen. Or maybe you are in a struggle and the mag button gets pressed and you want to shoot and can't.

My M&P9 doesn't have one from the factory, and my .40 doesn't have one from my kitchen table. If I want one I can put one in either gun, until then I like being in control of when I can shoot.

Good to know.Not for me because Im not buying an M&P, but someone might benefit from that post.

The only time I have ever dropped a magazine is when I intended to. Why is it that a shooter can be disciplined enough to not touch the trigger by accident under stress; but hitting the mag release negligently is somehow inevitable?

And if a man is so stressed out that he is functionally incapable of controlling whether he hits the magazine release then it seems I have no worries about a felon accurately shooting the one round in my 459 while simultaneously holding a pencil against the disconnect block up the magwell.

Perfect response. Somehow, a man should be so well trained that he will not touch the trigger on a Glock, but so poorly trained that he might drop the magazine. And accidentally dropping the mag or engaging a manual safety is something that I have NEVER done, and I got in and out of a police car, and rolled with quite a few perps. Sorry, but the whole "mag disconnects can ge me killed" argument is mall ninja hype.

If mag safeties are so unbelievably wonderful then we all should have them on every gun.
How in the world did Glock ever sell one gun without one? They are idiots! Mag safeties are the greatest thing ever! I wonder why S&W even offers their guns both ways. Stupid stupid stupid. Obviously having a mag safety is never EVER going to be a problem, but sure could save the life of a good guy if he's in a struggle for his weapon and sees he will lose it to the BG, he can easily find the mag release button, clear the bottom of teh grip, push the mag release and have the mag drop to render the gun useless, thus sparing his own life and probably hundreds of others that would eventually get shot when the BG reloaded once he was dead.

My comment about the pencil bypassing the mag safety was directed to the poster that claimed he took his mag out before turning in a weapon to security, thereby rendering it completely useless until a BG could special order a new mag from S&W, which are on backorder anyway....

Yes in 10 seconds I could put a pencil in the grip, tape it down and have a functioning single shot pistol. In 20 seconds I could strip the gun and bend the mag safety to render it useless. In two minutes I could remove the mag safety completely.

I'm guessing two things, most bad guys aren't bringing tape and a pencil to rob or otherwise do someone harm and even if they did, they won't know how to use it to disable a mag safety.

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M&P .40, M&P 9c & Shield 45

Glock sells guns because they make a decent product (certainly not "perfection") and they are cheap. PD's went to them because they are even cheaper for them to buy than for a regular civilian, and because they don't want to be "bothered" to train their officers on proper gun handling. We did one week in the academy on the range. That's it. And I just find it so amusing that some people are so vehemently against them because of some perceived threat that is so small, that nobody has even been able to find ONE instance where the presence of a mag disconnect got somebody hurt or killed, or even somebody ACTUALLY performing a tactical reload under fire, yet when confronted with ACTUAL cases of the disconnect saving lives (both in a struggle for a weapon, AND for when somebody not properly trained in handgun use that actually thinks the gun is unloaded when the mag is out, ESPECIALLY children who get to their parent's gun), they shrug it off.

It's simple:

the odds of getting involved in a self defense shooting are astronomical.

The odds of having the training (and I don't mean a weekend at Blackwater or a subscription to SWAT magazine) and the presence of mind to not only think of doing a tactical reload under fire, BUT having the abilty to do one under stress are even smaller.

The odds of needing that ONE shot in the 1.5 seconds DURING that perfectly executed tactical reload are even smaller.

The odds of that ONE shot you just fired even IF you managed to pull off that reload actually ending the fight are even smaller, AND you now have an empty gun, with the slide NOT locked back, requiring you to reload with BOTH hands, and an enraged wounded perp bearing down on you (even IF you managed to hit him)


If you compete, I get the aversion to them. If you don't, and REALLY think they're a liabilty, you're living in Fantasyland.

I agree... I challenge any die-hard proponent of no-mag safety to find any documented reference to a case of a true real-life, live-fire tactical reload happening where the round in the chamber came into play...

Also be aware that guns fired without a magazine also run the risk of ejecting the round downwards into the magwell, which can lead to other "'bad things."

Just FYI, even with the mag safety, I've had occasions where my magazine was not fully seated (my fault) where I fire the remaining round in the chamber and then *click* failure to feed on the next round. Tap rack bang. The mag safety really doesn't play at all in situations where the magazine only partially unseats (which is the majority of situations for typical users, I think.

Come to think of it most semi autos fired without the magazine will either stovepipe or eject the casing out of the magwell.Hickok45 has an excellent youtube video on several Glock models that do just that.From personal experience my non-mag disconnect equipped carry gun stovepipe ONLY if fired without the mag in place.The magazine ensures proper ejection of the spent casing.

Try to wrap your mind around what I say and forget about tactical reloads. I couldn't care less about tactical reloads.

On a mag safety gun:

If you are struggling for control of a weapon and you touch the mag release.. You have an inop weapon.

If you reach for your concealed weapon and you touch the mag release.... You have an inop weapon.

If you realize you have few rounds left and drop your mag and then drop your new mag, until you get that mag.... you have an inop weapon.

If there is a shell in the chamber and I pull the trigger guess what I want to happen? Meanwhile you guys can come up with all kinds of goofy scenarios why you DON'T want the gun to fire when there is a shell in the chamber and you are pulling the trigger.

For those of you, I think you should have mag safeties. And you should have magnetic disconnects and a matching ring you must wear. And you should have a grip safety. And a thumb safety. And a plug in the barrel that has to be removed first. And a locked holster to keep the gun in. And a key code on the slide. And you should keep the shells at least 200 yards from the gun at all times.

No military weapon in the world has a mag safety. Why do you think that is?

And you talk about stove piping a shell without the mag in? So if the choice is either firing the one shot I have to save my life and having the gun stove pipe or having a completely worthless gun with a shell in the chamber... I'll take the stove pipe.

Thanks LL....I couldn't agree more! Seems simple, eh!

try to wrap your mind around this:

The situations you describe are nearly unheard of.

If you are in a struggle for your weapon, you have a 50% chance of losing that struggle and the bad guy getting your gun. You wanna take the chance of that happening for the one round you MAY fire that MAY hit the guy and MAY end the fight? 98 pound weaklings generally aren't in the habit of strongarm robberies. Most of them will be repeat offenders with prison muscles. You have any idea of handgun ballistics? ever seen what a bullet does to a person? Cuz i can tell you that handgun rounds don't drop you dead right away, unless they're a heart, brain, or spinal cord shot.

Can you find ANY instances of that happening? You have the internet at your disposal. Can't you find ANY? Cause I can find plenty of the mag disconnect saving a life.

Do you have a manual safety on your gun? Or are you one of the "I keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire" crowd? Cause if you rely on your training to not make that mistake and put your finger on that trigger before you're ready to fire, how can you be so nervous that you might accidentally hit the mag release when you don't want to? Why would that scenario even enter your head? Judging from your posts, you seem so sure of yourself. How much training do you really have? I've carried a gun for over 20 years. Holstered and unholstered thousands of times. Conducted felony carstops, gotten in and out of a police car thousands of times, rolled with quite a few people during that time, too. NEVER has my magazine pooped out when I didn't want it to. So I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the odds of that happening on a modern firearm with a decent holster as being almost nil.

The military doesn't use a mag release gun. So what? They also require a manual safety. before they went to the M9, the 1911 was carried empty chamber, hammer down. Do you approve of that mode of carry? And the Hi-Power is still in use today by a few countries, i believe.

What REAL experience do you have that gives you credibility? Some guys i see at the range are all tacticool as they saunter up with their Glocks in the dropleg holster with the lasers attached, then they can't outshoot me with my old 5906 or model 19. Talking the talk isn't the same as walking the walk.

The mag safety doesn't make the gun slower or less lethal. You're just as well armed with a gun with one than without one. try turning off Guns and Ammo TV every once in a while.

I say, to each his own when it comes to the mag safety. I dont like them because I shoot competetively and have to unload and show clear at the end of a course of fire. Then just when everything is good and clear, I have to stick a magazine back in the gun to drop the hammer. Mot my idea of good, so I removed them on all my competition guns. For a police officer, it may make sense to have it.

This video is not a good representation of how to shoot to defend your life, but the magazine does fall out of the gun rendering it useless until he puts it back in. Then his lack of training kicks in and he sprays and prays... Fortunately, I dont think anyone (bystanders) was injured.

Armed Convenience Store Manager In Shootout With Robbers - YouTube

Well, as noted, there's the FN HighPower. Of course, the only folks to have used it are:

* Argentina
* Australia
* Bahrain
* Bangladesh
* Barbados
* Belgium
* Belize
* Bermuda
* Bolivia
* Botswana
* Brunei
* Burundi
* Cambodia
* Canada
* Chad
* Chile
* Republic of China
* Colombia
* Cuba
* Cyprus
* Democratic Republic of Congo
* Denmark
* Dominican Republic
* Ecuador
* El Salvador
* Estonia
* Finland
* Ghana
* Greece
* Guatemala
* Honduras
* Hungary
* India
* Indonesia
* Iraq
* Ireland
* Israel
* Jamaica
* Jordan
* Kenya
* Kuwait
* Lebanon
* Liberia
* Libya
* Lithuania
* Luxembourg
* Malawi
* Malaysia
* Mozambique
* Myanmar
* Nazi Germany
* Nepal
* Netherlands
* Nigeria
* Oman
* Panama
* Papua New Guinea
* Paraguay
* Peru
* Philippines
* Poland
* Portugal
* Rhodesia
* Romania
* Rwanda
* Saudi Arabia
* Sierra Leone
* Singapore
* Sri Lanka
* Sudan
* Suriname
* Syria
* Tanzania
* Togo
* Trinidad and Tobago
* Tunisia
* Uganda
* United Arab Emirates
* United Kingdom
* United States
* Uruguay
* Venezuela
* Zimbabwe

Prolly a few more I can't recall offhand. Not to mention police users worldwide.


Regards,

Pat

Looks like the clerk might have dropped the mag during the struggle (intentionally or not), then maybe fired the one shot he had, then having to reload with two hands. He had to rack the slide, so either he fired the one shot, or the gun was not chambered to begin with. Maybe firing that one shot gave him some breathing room, but even if he did hit one of them, there were two robbers. And this guy obviously doesn't know what he is doing with a gun, and (I suspect) MANY gun owners do not, either. Honestly, he would have been better served with carrying a second gun.

Thread coulda ended after this reply.

So the lesson Mr. Needham learned from that incident was he will never ever have pistol with a mag safety. Wow well no offence to Mr. Needham, the lesson i would have hopefully learned from that incident was i really need to practice properly seating my mags more, not make a judgement call on a type of pistol, thats just me though. My personal take on not being able to fire the last round in the chamber during a reload in a pistol with a mag safety argument, is this; who says that being able to fire that last round in the chamber during a reload is going to be enough to stop the attacker no one can guarantee that. Especialy if your attacker is all hopped up on guff balls, wich is more common than most people think, then it does not matter what caliber your pistol is chamberd in, only how many rounds it takes before they are no longer a threat. Or maby you rush the shot and just nick the attacker or miss them all together, but ha none of us would ever rush a shot, or ever miss would we. You never know, strange things happen in bad incidents. The point is this, for me at least, i would rather seat my mags properly, and know i have all the ammo i need to dill with the threat, rather that worrie about wether or not my pistol has a mag safety, and can fire the last round in the chamber during a reload. But like i said thats just me.

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