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  #1  
Old 12-01-2011, 02:11 PM
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Default accuracy of my 4516-1

I bought a S&W 4516-1. Went to a gun range and shot 21 rounds at 15 yards. Worked perfectly except at 15 yards, it was hitting about 2 to 1/2 feet (yes feet) down. I know that I am not a great shot but I am a lot better than that. The gun does not appear to have been shot much and no appearant damage. Showed it to a friend of mine that know guns much better that me. He said that the gun has not been fired much because know wear points showed no wear.

It has fixed sights.

What would you do?
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Old 12-01-2011, 02:22 PM
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The significant amount of times that one of our folks has brought a pistol to me, claiming it was consistently shooting low, I've tried the gun and found it's shooting fine with regard to POA/POI.

What I've found is the shooter was experiencing anticipatory flinch and depressing the muzzle, causing the hits to cluster lower than he/she thought they were aiming. (At the moment of anticipating the recoil they lost focus on their sights, and couldn't see they were actually shooting low.)

A session with some dummy rounds randomly loaded into their magazine (so they didn't know when they would be chambered) allowed them to see for themselves how they were pushing the muzzle down just at the moment they expected the gun to fire & recoil in their hand, which they didn't notice when they were shooting live rounds.

The first thing you might do is find an experienced shooter to try your 4516-1. Or, you might find an experienced instructor to try the gun, and then spend some time working with you to identify and correct any issues you may be experiencing when it comes to your technique.

If it turns out that the gun is really shooting that low at that distance, then the front sight might require replacement ... but first the shooter influence probably ought to be eliminated (as it's not an uncommon issue to encounter).

Just my thoughts.
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 12-01-2011 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 12-01-2011, 02:23 PM
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I had a 4566TSW, shot low for me, and 2 other people who tried it--one being an experienced shooter. I contacted S&W and they sent pre-paid label and replaced the front sight with a shorter one. It was better then I got it back, but I still had accuracy issues with the gun. Either the grip angle, gun itself, or me--but it wasn't the gun for me, as I couldn't get better than buckshot accuracy out of it.

You might try adding a set of Hogue grips to fit your hand better.

Last edited by novalty; 12-01-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:08 PM
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To Fastbolt

I am a experience shooter with revolers, I have S&W 686 (357 mag) with 4" and 7" barrels. 617 (22LR) with 8 3/8" barrel and a 640 (SW640 shooting 230 grain and upto a 345 grain) with a 8 3/8" barrel. With my 686 4" barrel I have no problem at 25 yards and being max of 4" from the center of target and better with my longer barrels. I understand what and why you said what you wrote. What else would you suggest?
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushface View Post
To Fastbolt

I am a experience shooter with revolers, I have S&W 686 (357 mag) with 4" and 7" barrels. 617 (22LR) with 8 3/8" barrel and a 640 (SW640 shooting 230 grain and upto a 345 grain) with a 8 3/8" barrel. With my 686 4" barrel I have no problem at 25 yards and being max of 4" from the center of target and better with my longer barrels. I understand what and why you said what you wrote. What else would you suggest?
If you're an experienced shooter, including with with pistols (since the cycling slide gives a different "feel" than when shooting a revolver), then I'd consider calling S&W to ask about having a shorter front sight post installed to raise the POI (as novalty related). They make a number of different height front posts for the 3rd gen .45's.
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:21 PM
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Of course, you also need to realize you're not going to get the same crisp 3-3 1/2 lb trigger pull with the 4516-1 in SA mode as you're probably getting with your 686 in SA mode, and that may have some influence, as well.
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:36 PM
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What Fastbolt has stated certainly makes sense, but what I would do is shoot from a rest at same distance(15yds) and see if that makes any difference. Also, I find that most indoor ranges are not set up to hang the target for folks over 6'2" to shoot on a level plain of aim to target. What I am saying is that you may have to actually point the pistol down slightly to hit center of target if shooting at silhouette target. Also try shooting at top of target(head if silhouette target) and see if that improves. Sounds fishy I know but if you are using isoceles stance then your point of aim is lowered and it is not a perfect straight line to target, so your are shooting down which can play on your eyesight point of aim. I don't have scientific proof of this theory so this is my own perception of what happens to me when shooting at indoor range I shoot at...zorro49
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:56 PM
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I'm a revolver guy too. When I first shot my 4516 I didn't think it was that accurate a handgun.

Then I put a set of Hogue grips on it and stopped using WWB in it. That, and a bunch of practice, made a vast difference.

It is a little tack driver, especially with Winchester Ranger 230 grain. I just need to shoot it regularly to take advantage of it. Good luck! Regards 18DAI
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Old 12-01-2011, 07:09 PM
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S&W 3rd generation pistols take some getting use to. I now have 19 of them (including a 4516-1 and -2). I also have 8 or 9 S&W revolvers (.38, .357 mag and .44 mag). Because of the triggers and grips, 3rd gens are very different, especially 3rd gen compact models. No one is doubting your experience with revolvers . . . or even with other autos. But, like I said, 3rd gens are different. FWIW

Good luck.
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Old 12-01-2011, 07:38 PM
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In my hands, the 4506 I had was extremely intolerant of grip error.IF I took my time with my shots, like 30 seconds a shot, I could put the round where I wanted. Any attempt at speed drawing merely established my target as the safest place to bet I wouldn't hit.

I traded it when it dawned on me that the grip was too wide and the ammo to expensive for me to shoot well enough to get past the training curve with it. My 5906 by contrast is a blast to shoot. Pun intended. I could hit the target blind with that thing...go figure.
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:18 PM
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I'm inclined to agree with fastbolt as well.

Another thing to bear in mind-shorter barreled guns with abbreviated grips are just plain difficult to shoot well-unless you're a fairly experienced shooter. Due to the shorter barrel and grip, every single bad habit is magnified as are even very small inconsistencies with regard to grip, sight alignment, trigger control and trigger reset.

Try it at 15 yards shooting on a bench with bags before assuming the gun is the issue-no offense intended by any means. I'm a pretty fair shot with full-sized pistols, but the shorter and smaller the pistol gets, the more my meager skills are put on display.

Best,

Heekma
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silversmok3 View Post
In my hands, the 4506 I had was extremely intolerant of grip error.IF I took my time with my shots, like 30 seconds a shot, I could put the round where I wanted. Any attempt at speed drawing merely established my target as the safest place to bet I wouldn't hit.

I traded it when it dawned on me that the grip was too wide and the ammo to expensive for me to shoot well enough to get past the training curve with it. My 5906 by contrast is a blast to shoot. Pun intended. I could hit the target blind with that thing...go figure.
Looks like we have the exact same shooting experience, just had mine with a 4566TSW instead of a 4506. I sold off my S&W 3rd Gen 45 to fund a S&W 1911. Right out of the box I was shooting as well as my 5906, the 1911 has restored my confidence level in shooting .45's enough so that I could hit 6" steel plates at 30 yards--and I'm not that experienced a shooter or typically very accurate. Just wish the 1911 field-stripped as easily as the 3rd Gen Smiths. Looking back I don't regret selling off the 4566TSW, but I still love the looks of the 3rd Gen S&W .45's just wish the ergonomics worked out better for me.

Last edited by novalty; 12-02-2011 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:35 AM
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Which sight picture does S&W use with their semi-autos..???



I know some use the bottom dead on hold or cover up hold, which I don't like... I like the top center mass hold... That could explain a low shooting problem... I think H&K may use the bottom cover up hold...
Have a good one...XPman...
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Old 12-02-2011, 12:26 PM
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I use the top one, "center mass hold". Works well with all my S&W 45's using Winchester Ranger 230 grain. Regards 18DAI
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Old 12-02-2011, 01:24 PM
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/\ ok, so the Smiths are set up for center mass right...??? That's also what I like, just didn't know which the S&W auto loaders were set up for...
Thanks and have a good one...XPman...
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Old 12-02-2011, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XPman View Post
Which sight picture does S&W use with their semi-autos..???



I know some use the bottom dead on hold or cover up hold, which I don't like... I like the top center mass hold... That could explain a low shooting problem... I think H&K may use the bottom cover up hold...
Have a good one...XPman...
Other than your example of center mass, I don't see how your example is applicable to sight setup because those other sighting options are so target size and distance dependent. For instance, how do you use a 6oclock hold on a deer? I think your example is what happens when some takes a class and is shown a technique for a specific situation an misinterpret it to be a general technique. Bullseye target competitors may use a 6ocklock hold but their sights are adjustable and set for a specific target size at a specific range. Not a technique to use for any other situation.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John3200 View Post
Other than your example of center mass, I don't see how your example is applicable to sight setup because those other sighting options are so target size and distance dependent. For instance, how do you use a 6oclock hold on a deer? I think your example is what happens when some takes a class and is shown a technique for a specific situation an misinterpret it to be a general technique. Bullseye target competitors may use a 6ocklock hold but their sights are adjustable and set for a specific target size at a specific range. Not a technique to use for any other situation.
I completely agree with this, it's very target size and distance dependent.

However, I spent years punching paper with rifles and pistols with adjustable sights, and it's very difficult for me to train my reactions and muscle memory to do something else. I have learned that all the 3rd gens with fixed sights will shoot low with any kind of six o'clock hold, so I have to modify my sight picture.

The real problem I have with any slow-ish aimed firing at bigger targets like silhouettes, is that the aiming point is so danged large, it easy to make groups that look like the pistol is inaccurate. Trying to figure out where in that big target area to cover with the front dot is difficult if you have to think about it, there is no solid reference point.

But, if I stick a 1" flourescent dot in the middle of the center mass portion of the target, my groups magically shrink to very acceptable accuracy levels. It's the old adage about "aim small, hit small".

When doing tactical drills with fast shooting, I have no problem sticking that front sight on the proper place to get top scoring hits. We're not looking for 1" groups.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John3200 View Post
Other than your example of center mass, I don't see how your example is applicable to sight setup because those other sighting options are so target size and distance dependent. For instance, how do you use a 6oclock hold on a deer? I think your example is what happens when some takes a class and is shown a technique for a specific situation an misinterpret it to be a general technique. Bullseye target competitors may use a 6ocklock hold but their sights are adjustable and set for a specific target size at a specific range. Not a technique to use for any other situation.
Oh, I agree 100%, I was just askin how S&W semi-auto sights (fixed) were set up from the factory, as I understand H&K's fixed are like the bottom one, cover up hold, and I don't like that either for the same reasons you state...
I have 3 S&W revolvers and only 1, my Mod. 29 Silhouette .44M has adj. sights... I have been shootin mostly my single shot custom XP-100s with 24x scopes...
I just want to try a different game and shoot some semi-auto for fun...
Have a good one...XPman...

Last edited by XPman; 12-03-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:55 PM
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Accuracy from a 3-3/4" barrel .45 at 15yds. is a challenge in itself.If you add the slightest flinching or what not it's going to be way off.There are some that can be a crackshot with this gun but I'm still practicing with my 4516-1 and it can get quite frustrating.You have to remember that the .45 round was designed from a 5" barrel.When you shorten a .45 barrel to that extent you lose muzzle velocity ultimately allowing the bullet to drop sooner.Keep practicing,and practicing some more.Longer distances just can't be immediately expected from a close quarters combat weapon.The 4516 is a blast to shoot.Such a short barrel but recoil is laughable because of it's weight and that's a good advantage to have from that barrel length because in time you will be able to follow up shots faster.I have been given a wealth of great knowledge on this forum there are kind souls on here always willing to help anyone out...I love this bar
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