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Old 12-17-2011, 10:16 AM
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Default Sigma 40F frame rails damage - pics

Me again, with another more recent tale of woe. In doing a detailed cleaning of my 1st gen SW40F, I noticed what you see below, and sent the following inquiry to S&W:


Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Sigma SW40F frame issue



Smith & Wesson:
I am the original owner of a 1st generation Sigma SW40F serial number PAF 13XX. I am attaching two detailed photos of the rear frame rails. These depict the leading edge of both the left and right rails which have been damaged/deformed from normal use. I am concerned that this issue could potentially compromise the weapon's dependability as I use it for personal defense. My questions are:

* Should the frame be replaced to ensure reliability? If not, what is the remedy?
* Is an identical frame available for replacement? If not, what do you propose?
* If an alternate frame is to be used, will my original upper assembly work with it? (my interest is in keeping the original barrel length of 4.5" v. 4.0" of newer models).


S&W wrote back say to send it in, and they would replace the entire weapon as exact replacement frames are no longer available. I've declined for the reason stated to them (I want to retain the 4.5" barrel - mostly because it's no longer available), and later versions I've tried have a worst trigger pull than mine, have a rail which I'm not interested in, and are two-tone.

In looking at the frame of my Glock, there is no corresponding portion of the frame/rail - just the SS load bearing part. Given that, I'm wondering if the deformed portions are actually necessary for proper function. So, my question is: should I be concerned about this or just ignore it? The gun shoots and functions as well as it ever has.

Regards.
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File Type: jpg Sigma 40F L.JPG (86.2 KB, 425 views)
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Old 12-17-2011, 11:24 AM
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That is just the plastic stuff (doesn't really look structural and you want to keep the gun...take and carefully trim the tiny bits of plastic off so it doesn snag or flake off to jam anything during use. Exacto knife to trim and light filing or sanding to smooth the areas.

You might want to look at the slide to see if it has anything going on to corospond to the damage area of the frame. Also recoil spring may need replacing.

Good luck!
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow1006 View Post
That is just the plastic stuff (doesn't really look structural and you want to keep the gun...take and carefully trim the tiny bits of plastic off so it doesn snag or flake off to jam anything during use. Exacto knife to trim and light filing or sanding to smooth the areas.

You might want to look at the slide to see if it has anything going on to corospond to the damage area of the frame. Also recoil spring may need replacing.

Good luck!
I agree! Use nail clippers;they will do the job just fine. A very fine rat tail file will clean it up well afterwards.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AreWeNotMen? View Post
Me again, with another more recent tale of woe. In doing a detailed cleaning of my 1st gen SW40F, I noticed what you see below, and sent the following inquiry to S&W:


Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Sigma SW40F frame issue



Smith & Wesson:
I am the original owner of a 1st generation Sigma SW40F serial number PAF 13XX. I am attaching two detailed photos of the rear frame rails. These depict the leading edge of both the left and right rails which have been damaged/deformed from normal use. I am concerned that this issue could potentially compromise the weapon's dependability as I use it for personal defense. My questions are:

* Should the frame be replaced to ensure reliability? If not, what is the remedy?
* Is an identical frame available for replacement? If not, what do you propose?
* If an alternate frame is to be used, will my original upper assembly work with it? (my interest is in keeping the original barrel length of 4.5" v. 4.0" of newer models).


S&W wrote back say to send it in, and they would replace the entire weapon as exact replacement frames are no longer available. I've declined for the reason stated to them (I want to retain the 4.5" barrel - mostly because it's no longer available), and later versions I've tried have a worst trigger pull than mine, have a rail which I'm not interested in, and are two-tone.

In looking at the frame of my Glock, there is no corresponding portion of the frame/rail - just the SS load bearing part. Given that, I'm wondering if the deformed portions are actually necessary for proper function. So, my question is: should I be concerned about this or just ignore it? The gun shoots and functions as well as it ever has.

Regards.
Wow, that's some pretty awsome customer service by S&W to offer to replace your gun sight unseen, other than a picture. From my view it doesn't look to be anything to do with functionality. It appears to be just a plastic alignment guide to the metal rail, it isn't even needed I'll bet. As for how it got damaged, again from my obsevations, when installing the upper slide onto the lower....
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo38gn View Post
As for how it got damaged, again from my obsevations, when installing the upper slide onto the lower....
Um...no. I didn't use a 2-lb sledge to put the slide on that I recall.

Although in looking at the slide as to what could have caused this, I am at a loss. I simply cannot understand what could have made contact at those particular points.
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AreWeNotMen? View Post
Um...no. I didn't use a 2-lb sledge to put the slide on that I recall.

Although in looking at the slide as to what could have caused this, I am at a loss. I simply cannot understand what could have made contact at those particular points.
Um...... the slide.... ? It's no biggie, what's important is there isn't a problem with your gun. Take a little time to install the upper and see if that is what happened..
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo38gn View Post
Wow, that's some pretty awsome customer service by S&W to offer to replace your gun sight unseen, other than a picture. From my view it doesn't look to be anything to do with functionality. It appears to be just a plastic alignment guide to the metal rail, it isn't even needed I'll bet. As for how it got damaged, again from my obsevations, when installing the upper slide onto the lower....
Yes,I agree,S&W customer service is one of the best in the gun world! But,the problem he has is no reason to turn it in to S&W for an updated Sigma. I know I wouldn't. All he has to do is clean it up a bit and it's good as new.Now,if it occurs again,then yes,there is a problem!
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo38gn View Post
Um...... the slide.... ? It's no biggie, what's important is there isn't a problem with your gun. Take a little time to install the upper and see if that is what happened..
Okay - but I can't see what part of the slide could have contacted those points - ideas? I mean, I removed the slide, flipped it over, and held it about along side the frame to it's rear-most travel point, and just don't see anything. The mating grooves in the slide (don't know their technical name) are smooth with no points I can see that could smack the damaged parts of the frame. The side-to-side "slop" does not appear excessive.

Regardless of what it is, it's in the design of the gun. It still functions fine, and based on responses thus far, it seems I shouldn't lose sleep over it, and appreciate all input (that why I'm here!).

And I do agree - great customer service from S&W to offer a new gun.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:17 PM
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All I have to play with is one of my M&P's.. how bout the back end of the barrel chamber?
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo38gn View Post
All I have to play with is one of my M&P's.. how bout the back end of the barrel chamber?
Well, if you only have one thing to play with, that's a pretty good choice!

And I think if it were that, the "rub" would be inboard on those parts v. outboard.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AreWeNotMen? View Post
Me again, with another more recent tale of woe. In doing a detailed cleaning of my 1st gen SW40F, I noticed what you see below, and sent the following inquiry to S&W:


Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Sigma SW40F frame issue



Smith & Wesson:
I am the original owner of a 1st generation Sigma SW40F serial number PAF 13XX. I am attaching two detailed photos of the rear frame rails. These depict the leading edge of both the left and right rails which have been damaged/deformed from normal use. I am concerned that this issue could potentially compromise the weapon's dependability as I use it for personal defense. My questions are:

* Should the frame be replaced to ensure reliability? If not, what is the remedy?
* Is an identical frame available for replacement? If not, what do you propose?
* If an alternate frame is to be used, will my original upper assembly work with it? (my interest is in keeping the original barrel length of 4.5" v. 4.0" of newer models).


S&W wrote back say to send it in, and they would replace the entire weapon as exact replacement frames are no longer available. I've declined for the reason stated to them (I want to retain the 4.5" barrel - mostly because it's no longer available), and later versions I've tried have a worst trigger pull than mine, have a rail which I'm not interested in, and are two-tone.

In looking at the frame of my Glock, there is no corresponding portion of the frame/rail - just the SS load bearing part. Given that, I'm wondering if the deformed portions are actually necessary for proper function. So, my question is: should I be concerned about this or just ignore it? The gun shoots and functions as well as it ever has.

Regards.
AWNM,can you take another pic,but this time looking down onto the damaged area.I field stripped my 40VE to see if I can help you out.
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruger Nut View Post
AWNM,can you take another pic,but this time looking down onto the damaged area.I field stripped my 40VE to see if I can help you out.
I feel so old/non-digital - what does AWNM mean?

But yes, I'll go get a top-down pic and post it soon.
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:28 PM
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I feel so old/non-digital - what does AWNM mean?

But yes, I'll go get a top-down pic and post it soon.
Hhahaha.... rotflmao!!!!!!

AWNM = AreWeNotMen.....
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:35 PM
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Hhahaha.... rotflmao!!!!!!

AWNM = AreWeNotMen.....
Yep,instead of typing all those letters I just used the beginning letter of each capital word.
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruger Nut View Post
Yep,instead of typing all those letters I just used the beginning letter of each capital word.
Doh! I feel a bit dumb(er) now

I took a few from the top for review :
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File Type: jpg DSCN0699.JPG (195.3 KB, 105 views)
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:10 PM
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After studying my 40VE to your 40F I see nothing any different in the two. I do have one theory; is it possible that some brass from a shell casing broke off,lodged in the slide grooves,and chipped the plastic? Something had to be in the slide grooves to chip the plastic,IMO.
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruger Nut View Post
After studying my 40VE to your 40F I see nothing any different in the two. I do have one theory; is it possible that some brass from a shell casing broke off,lodged in the slide grooves,and chipped the plastic? Something had to be in the slide grooves to chip the plastic,IMO.
That's certainly possible that something got in there (though I never saw any remnants of such) - weird it happened on both sides, but still, certainly possible over time.

As an aside - being really new here, I so appreciate the interest and help from everyone.
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:23 PM
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AWNM,how many rounds do you think you have shot thru it? I noticed the slide lock button has some wear on it and it looks to be rounded a bit.If you hold the pistol in your hand and push down on the slide just in front of the rear site,is there any "slop"? (loose)

Last edited by Ruger Nut; 12-17-2011 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruger Nut View Post
AWNM,how many rounds do you think you have shot thru it? I noticed the slide lock button has some wear on it and it looks to be rounded a bit.If you hold the pistol in your hand and push down on the slide just in front of the rear site,is there any "slop"? (loose)
Round count - heck, really no idea although I'm the original owner. If I had to guess, maybe 2500 (I apparently have too many other guns to shoot ).

I did the "slop check" and I get 0.0075".
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AreWeNotMen? View Post
Round count - heck, really no idea although I'm the original owner. If I had to guess, maybe 2500 (I apparently have too many other guns to shoot ).

I did the "slop check" and I get 0.0075".
I know what ya mean. I have alot of Rugers,and others.
I'm scratching my head as to why the slide lock button would be worn like that.I was thinking it could be excess wear in the slide grooves or the slide rails,causing the slide to move up and down too much.

Things that make you go,"hmmmm"........
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:51 PM
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The damage may be some flexing of the frame during recoil of the slide. The frame maybe spreading outward during peak impulse causing it to rub the inner slide rails. Have you noticed any failures to eject lately? The extra friction if induced by the frame flexing could slow the slide travel slightly.

I would take great care in re-shaping the affected areas with a triangle file and or light sanding with 400# or 600# grit sandpaper wrapped on the triangle file or other small form to hold the paper at an angle to match the form of the frame's shape.

Best of luck!
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:03 PM
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The damage may be some flexing of the frame during recoil of the slide. The frame maybe spreading outward during peak impulse causing it to rub the inner slide rails. Have you noticed any failures to eject lately? The extra friction if induced by the frame flexing could slow the slide travel slightly.
Shadow,I thought the same thing initially,but,wouldn't that cause the pistol to explode?

Maybe during the "flexing" of the frame,some shell case fragments got lodged in the grooves??????????
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadow1006 View Post
The damage may be some flexing of the frame during recoil of the slide. The frame maybe spreading outward during peak impulse causing it to rub the inner slide rails. Have you noticed any failures to eject lately? The extra friction if induced by the frame flexing could slow the slide travel slightly.....Best of luck!
I've not had any FTE episodes...but your theory is something I would never have imagined. I may go ahead and ever-so-carefully trim off the chewed-up bits as some have suggested, take close-up pics, then head up into the forest tomorrow AM and shoot the heck out of it, and come home to reinspect/take pics, and report back.
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:09 PM
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The "damage" you see is of no worry. You need to shoot another 2500 rds. down the bore. Use GREASE on the rails not oil.
I'm still shooting the 155 gr. magtek HP's loaded with the old hogdon load of 10.0 of longshot, in my 40ve. Over 1350 fps and works great getting those wet logs burning on campfire weekends. HAHA
How this pistol holds up to these hot loads amazes me.
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:47 PM
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Hello from So. CAL, the worst gun laws in the country, state.

It looks as if you were pulling the slide upward when putting it on the frame. you have some damage on the metal mechinism also, pic #1. It also looks like there was no lube when you were putting the slide back on. Let S&W give you a new gun for god sakes. When you get the new gun, better quality than this one, just do the trigger job on it and be sure you use a toothpick point size amount of gun grease on all 4 of those points, not oil but grease. the trigger pull will be down to 4.5 lbs.
If you decide to try and use the one that is damages, S&W may void the warranty all together because you are not a S&W gunsmith and you would be modifying the gun.
However if you REALLY decide to keep it, trim all that stuff off, cut the damaged area off the gun altogether, make sure its as smooth an a babies butt, use gun grease as I mentioned above but more of it and be VERY careful.
But really man, just get the new gun. its not worth trying an experiment to see if you can do it right and then loose a finger or something.
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:32 PM
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AWNM:

I also own a Sigma 40F that I enjoy. Being an "early adopter", I bought way too soon when they first came out and were expensive. I agree the trigger of the 40F is much superior to the current issue Sigma. Have you thought of asking the factory if they will allow you to return your 40F for credit toward a more modern, non-Sigma semi-auto? I have an M&P Model 40C with a spare 9mm barrel and magazines that I am very impressed with. By the way, this was my plan if my 40F has a catastrophic problem requiring exchange.

Best of luck,

Dave
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-O-Dave View Post
AWNM:

I also own a Sigma 40F that I enjoy. Being an "early adopter", I bought way too soon when they first came out and were expensive. I agree the trigger of the 40F is much superior to the current issue Sigma. Have you thought of asking the factory if they will allow you to return your 40F for credit toward a more modern, non-Sigma semi-auto? I have an M&P Model 40C with a spare 9mm barrel and magazines that I am very impressed with. By the way, this was my plan if my 40F has a catastrophic problem requiring exchange.

Best of luck,

Dave
That's a good idea! An M&P would be a great upgrade!
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruger Nut View Post
That's a good idea! An M&P would be a great upgrade!
COPY THAT!

I will ask and see what they say. I wonder if they will supply a hi-cap model since that's what I have now (I'm in CA)...and what happens as it will be a new model # and SN? Any ideas?

P.S. - I shot 150 rounds through the 40F today - 100 mild target loads, and 50 full-house loads. All went fine. Last night I had trimmed all the little "boogers" of plastic off, and lightly filed the areas smooth. I just pulled the slide off and I have more (slight) damage to the left rail - none to the right.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AreWeNotMen? View Post
COPY THAT!

I will ask and see what they say. I wonder if they will supply a hi-cap model since that's what I have now (I'm in CA)...and what happens as it will be a new model # and SN? Any ideas?

P.S. - I shot 150 rounds through the 40F today - 100 mild target loads, and 50 full-house loads. All went fine. Last night I had trimmed all the little "boogers" of plastic off, and lightly filed the areas smooth. I just pulled the slide off and I have more (slight) damage to the left rail - none to the right.
As much as I hate to say it,it's time to get rid of it! If the rail keeps chipping away eventually it could become tragic!

I don't think S&W will ship high capacity mags to Ca.But,I would work them really hard to try and get an M&P. Play the sympathy card,like,"would you want me to continue shooting this gun,and it possibably blow up on me......." Most likely they will only trade up for a newer Sigma.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:07 PM
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If they don't go for the M&P deal you can always try for an SD!
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:42 AM
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If they don't go for the M&P deal you can always try for an SD!
And my hi-cap Sigma mags fit the SD...
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:00 AM
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Default quick update

I spoke with a technician at S&W over the phone last week. Bottom line, since it's functioning fine (i.e., no function problems at all), just keep shooting it. The area in question is not load bearing as you know. He said I could send it back any time for them to look over in person if I had concerns.

I did trim off the little "boogers" of plastic that were sticking out - used fingernail clippers and an Exact-o knife under a magnifier - worked fine. I took pics of my work and the bits I trimmed off for posterity!

If anything changes, I'll let y'all know....

Regards.
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AreWeNotMen? View Post
I spoke with a technician at S&W over the phone last week. Bottom line, since it's functioning fine (i.e., no function problems at all), just keep shooting it. The area in question is not load bearing as you know. He said I could send it back any time for them to look over in person if I had concerns.

I did trim off the little "boogers" of plastic that were sticking out - used fingernail clippers and an Exact-o knife under a magnifier - worked fine. I took pics of my work and the bits I trimmed off for posterity!

If anything changes, I'll let y'all know....

Regards.
Wow,it's amazing how their attitude changed since you were wanting to upgrade to a better gun.

Well,i'm glad that they did say to keep shooting it.IMO,it is a rare gun and you don't see them any more. Good luck and keep feeding it ammo!
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:15 AM
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Wow,it's amazing how their attitude changed since you were wanting to upgrade to a better gun...IMO,it is a rare gun and you don't see them any more...
Different tech, different answer I guess. But I'm okay with it since it does do what it's designed to do: go bang when I pull the trigger. I was struggling with whether I would actually swap it if given the chance, because as you mention, there are not be a whole lot of these around (I've never seen another at ranges, etc. in the 20+ years I've owned it).

And here it a pic of the bits I trimmed off - it looks like a lot, but they are tiny, thin pieces:
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File Type: jpg sigma rail trimmings.jpg (84.1 KB, 25 views)
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