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  #51  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:34 PM
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What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?  
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It all boils down to the all mighty dollar. Loss of market share + expense in production = dropped from production.
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  #52  
Old 02-22-2012, 08:48 PM
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Default 3rd Generation S&W'S

Hog Shooter, if you get any excess to destroy, please send me some! 3rd Gen forever!!!(6906).
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  #53  
Old 02-22-2012, 10:51 PM
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+1 what dcopper said:

Hog Shooter, if you get any excess to destroy, please send me some! 3rd Gen forever!!!(6906).
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  #54  
Old 02-22-2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dcopper View Post
Hog Shooter, if you get any excess to destroy, please send me some! 3rd Gen forever!!!(6906).
I've been checking for PMs and emails ever since I posted that. I just knew I'd be swamped in old 3rd gens that needed a final resting place. I'm still open to managing the 3RD GEN OLD GUN HOME for all of those poor autos that need a quiet place of repose.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:33 AM
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I will only add : I just bought a 559,still have my 1991 Hi Power,buying wheel guns at the moment. Do not own plastic,not a big fan of SS finish. Too old or too stupid: like the wood and blue steel.I agree with several comments,spend more time shooting and getting holes in the right places !
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  #56  
Old 02-23-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by StatesRightist View Post
Exactly...polymer works....but it's like comparing Rolex and Seiko.
Yea but the Seiko keeps better time
(full disclosure-I wear a Rolex)
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  #57  
Old 02-23-2012, 09:46 AM
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Sorry...I just won't do plastic. I have S&W in different models and all of them work very well.
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  #58  
Old 11-20-2015, 01:18 AM
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What demise???



Quite nice! I like it.
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  #59  
Old 11-20-2015, 07:26 PM
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Great thread. Still believe cancellation of Third Gens should make em more collectible and valuable. If they originally cost more they should be worth more on the used market. Nothing against polymers but won't be shedding my CS-9 anytime soon.
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  #60  
Old 11-20-2015, 11:24 PM
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Demise? What demise? I'm still shooting and enjoying mine.
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  #61  
Old 11-21-2015, 01:16 AM
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32 years with my 539. No failures with anything. And if I had to hit someone when it`s empty, they are going down.
Jim
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Old 11-21-2015, 01:40 AM
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Heavy and limited rounds? Don't buy that argument. 1911's are still wildly popular with many military and LEO units, and they are generally much heavier and have fewer rounds than any polymer unit.

Perception, in my humble musings, made S&W kill them. As pointed out, Sig and Beretta still sell many metal guns. Smith saw Glock as their greatest competitor and abandoned that market. Ironically, by doing so, probably increased Sig's sale of the classic P Series pistols.

Personally, again IMHO, the "need" for a polymer 18 round pistol is largely just perception. A Sig P229 is not an 8 Track player or a buggy whip. It is not obsolete or useless, it's just that buyers perceive the newer plastic strikers as 'better' and more advanced. Yes, they are a bit cheaper to buy and produce (makes for a large margin), but a 2nd Gen S&W 459 held 14+1 rounds, a 3rd Gen did too. Those are not obsolete weapons, and I'd argue their heft makes shooting hotter 9mm loads easier.

I'd much rather have a nice 3rd Gen Smith or Sig P228 any day over a Tupperware striker for many reasons, but the market didn't see it that way. I wish Smith would bring them back, surely they could be made today much more cost effectively than they were in 1990, but alas....
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:03 AM
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Default They didn't want to compete...

They didn't want to compete with their own guns but as far as I'm concerned they could have left the 3rd gens in the line as a 'classic' because they are dang good guns. I really think it's a gyp (is that proper?) that even parts for 3rd gens are getting harder to come by. That's wishing because they probably wouldn't make any money by re-introducing the 3rd gens even though there are a lot of enthusiasts out here, to today's generation metal = crude and old fashioned. Like I said though, limited run of select models as a 'Classic' would be great.
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  #64  
Old 11-21-2015, 07:41 AM
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I've owned white a few 3rd gen pistols. Probably close to 10. I no longer have one, due to the slow (if any) support the factory gives. I know they are as tough as nails and will rarely need maintenance beyond springs which are pretty easy to get. But unless I know the original owner and how many rounds he put through the gun, I can't know if the use I put them through is going to be the breaking point. If S&W still actively supported them (and they should since the have a "lifetime warranty") the 5906 would still be my house gun. It's been replaced with a Ruger SR9. Not nearly as classy as the 5906 is, but it has the manual safety and the magazine disconnect that I prefer on a gun. I just don't want to have to wait months for parts or service.

But the reason for the demise has already been stated. If someone just wants a gun to launch a bullet, a striker fired M&P will do that reliably, and it's cheaper to make, cheaper to purchase, and reliable. Now, if somebody also wants a gun with a little more pride of ownership, the metal, hammer fired 3rd gens are the way to go.

I mean, who here can imagine bequeathing their Glock or M&P (or SR9) to their child? It would be like passing down a toilet plunger. "Here Son. This has unclogged many a toilet. It's yours now. Take good care of it". My kids are young and they have zero interest in my SR9 or LC9-S that I have. But when they see my Beretta 92 or any of my old revolvers, they immediately perk right up.

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Old 11-21-2015, 08:40 AM
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I have a question about the old S&W semi autos. It's not a complaint, I'm just curious.

Why were so many variations of basically the same pistol?

Edit: I have a 59 and a 5906 but I know that there are many variations between the two.

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  #66  
Old 11-21-2015, 09:39 AM
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Why were so many variations of basically the same pistol?
My Gawd! Talk about variations? Have you been to Sig's website lately?
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  #67  
Old 11-21-2015, 01:05 PM
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I don't think anything (glock, polymer, gov contracts, etc.) 'drove' Smith to drop their steel line except profitability. Steel/alloy guns still sell, and sell very well. (In the current market everything is selling well.) Smith chose to adjust their business model towards the plastic market and away from the steel and alloy guns. Had they kept the lines going I'm sure they could move every all-metal gun they made, just the profit would be lower.

To be mass market competitive every manufacturer 'must' have a poly-striker gun that they can put in the display window of gun shops or online; the steel guns will sell as well but with a lower profit margin.

Hand made and hand fitted are relics for any mass market industry. Modern "product realization" focuses on just-in-time logistics, modularity, remove-and-replace, and disposable.
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  #68  
Old 11-21-2015, 01:17 PM
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Simple.......People quit buying "em". When a product is no longer profitable the manufacturer drops it and goes to something else.
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  #69  
Old 11-21-2015, 11:53 PM
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Sig just re-issued their classic P225, the closest thing to S&W's alloy-framed, single-stack 3913/14. Sig updated a few things on the new P225; most notably the slide is now fully machined instead of being stamped and welded. MSRP for the recently re-issued P225 is almost $1200., when demand settles the street price will likely be around $1000.

They'll probably sell every new 225 they make, just like the rest of the P-series (220, 226, 227, 229, 239 and others). Sig has even announced a re-chambered .45 ACP P220 single-stack pistol in 10mm; they'll probably sell every one of those too, judging from all the folks over on the Sig Forum itching to buy them.

If Sig can sell a re-issued P225 for over a grand, perhaps S&W will take note and bring back their 3rd generation alloy-framed pistols.
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMSgt View Post
Simple, it's $.
That's exactly what I was told by S&W. They said that were they to re-tool and begin manufacturing them again in any numbers they'd cost $1200.00 MSRP, which means at least $1000.00 in store probably which is not far off of Sig Sauer prices.
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:40 AM
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What did they do with the original equipment used to make the 3rd gen's? And they still make limited runs for police departments that still issue 3rd gen's, so they already have the equipment set up somewhere. Just increase production.

As for businesses always doing what is best for the company, tell that to Colt. A premiere American made product has declared bankruptcy how many times now? They no longer make revolvers, the M4 contract has gone to FN, and their AR-15 is no longer the only game in town since pretty much everybody makes an AR (and a 1911, for that matter).

The M&P series is a success. No doubt about it. I think they're a better weapon than Glock, but Glock beat S&W to the punch so they're pretty much always going to be behind Glock when it comes to Tupperware sales. But there is no doubt that the 3rd gen's still have a market. As for MSRP, I'm calling BS on that one. SIG's don't need to be as expensive as they are, it's just people buying the name. S&W doesn't enjoy that elite reputation. Beretta and CZ still make metal framed hammer fired guns for a reasonable price. If they reintroduced the 5906 and put a $1000 price tag on it, even I wouldn't buy it. It's not worth $1000, especially with all the plastic and MIM parts the new one would have.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
Yea but the Seiko keeps better time
(full disclosure-I wear a Rolex)
He's right I wear a Seiko automatic dive watch........w/out my reading glasses I "think" it's a Rolex>>>>LOL

Add the weight of today's "Bat belt".... in the 50-60 my Dad's belt IIRC carried his Colt NS in .357 2-3 dump pouches cuff pouch and a ring to add his night stick....... late 60s/70s a radio the size and weight of a brick.....

...... so today..... the lighter gun the better on Officers backs.!!!
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:24 PM
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As a disclaimer I don’t have a lot of knowledge on the topic, however in an attempt to become more educated I’ve been doing a lot of reading. It would seem that S&W was making 3rd Generation new production pistols as recently as a few years ago. From what I can find on the internet the WV state police did a 4566 upgrade in 2011 and they made 3914 DAOs for the NYPD in 2012. Beretta, Sig Sauer, and CZ are currently producing metal framed TDA pistols, and obviously Beretta uses the same slide mounted safety/decocker setup. People are buying them, both private citizens and law enforcement. The sheriff’s deputies in the county where I work carry Sigs and I believe the PA state police have switched to the P227. It would seem to me that S&W is potentially missing the boat on sales that it could have had by not offering a pistol that they already have the capability to make. Maybe offer the scandium frame as an option to compete on the weight issue.

Apparently there is also a market for polymer framed TDA pistols. HK, FN, Sig Sauer, CZ, Beretta all produce a product of this sort. Honestly I would think that something along that line would be a way keep an iron in the fire. It would be less expensive to produce. Yet they could make it with parts commonality to the 3rd gen pistols to some extent. Anything from a complete 3rd Gen setup with the exception of the polymer frame up to a pistol that uses M&P magazines, grip inserts, sights, extractors, ect. Some form of hybrid 3rd gen/M&P would hopefully create the need for them to maintain production for a fair amount of 3rd gen components. And if they’re already making a pistol of this sort in bulk it, in theory, would make it easier for them to do an occasional production run of all metal guns.

Speaking as a younger person that was unaware of the Smith 3rd Gen pistols up until recently, I think if it was marketed properly you could generate new interest in these guns. Sometimes what’s old can be new again.
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:44 PM
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The local SO used 3rd gens up until the turn of the century. Now it's Glock. Except the other week I was going into the Publix and in front of me was a deputy, in uniform, with the "familiar shape" of a SS 3rd gen riding on his duty belt. I would have asked but these days LE can get a might peculiar in relation to a stranger asking about their sidearm. Joe
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
What did they do with the original equipment used to make the 3rd gen's? And they still make limited runs for police departments that still issue 3rd gen's, so they already have the equipment set up somewhere. Just increase production.

As for businesses always doing what is best for the company, tell that to Colt. A premiere American made product has declared bankruptcy how many times now? They no longer make revolvers, the M4 contract has gone to FN, and their AR-15 is no longer the only game in town since pretty much everybody makes an AR (and a 1911, for that matter).

The M&P series is a success. No doubt about it. I think they're a better weapon than Glock, but Glock beat S&W to the punch so they're pretty much always going to be behind Glock when it comes to Tupperware sales. But there is no doubt that the 3rd gen's still have a market. As for MSRP, I'm calling BS on that one. SIG's don't need to be as expensive as they are, it's just people buying the name. S&W doesn't enjoy that elite reputation. Beretta and CZ still make metal framed hammer fired guns for a reasonable price. If they reintroduced the 5906 and put a $1000 price tag on it, even I wouldn't buy it. It's not worth $1000, especially with all the plastic and MIM parts the new one would have.
In 2012 (the last year my department was still issuing the 5906) a new in box 5906 cost us right at $1000 per pistol, and I am pretty sure that had little markup over the cost to produce it. S&W only filled the orders once per year, so sometimes the wait for a NIB pistol was lengthy. The distributor's explanation for both price point and wait time was the factory used to produce the 5906 was dedicated to full time production of handcuffs (I think it was handcuffs) and in order to fill the annual order for 5906's they had to cease operations, reset all the required equipment, and produce the new pistols. That sounded like a very logical explanation for cost/wait time. My department had a 130 year history of holstering S&W pistols for duty use, but $1000 a copy for a police pistol was too much for even a 130 history to bear.

On a side note: When The transition to Glock was complete, all the 5906's were traded to the distributor as "credit" toward the final bill. The distributor agreed to sell back the individual officer's 5906 to each member for $275. I think the ones that weren't bought back (the majority of them, by the way) were later sold as "police trade ins" for about $375 if I remember correctly.

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Old 11-24-2015, 02:24 PM
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Smith doesn't need to build an entire line of 3rd Gen's again, I'm sure that 'Gun of the Month' policy in the late 80's and early to mid 90's wasn't cheap for them and there's no need to try to replicate it now. Fair enough.

But it seems they are incredibly myopic when it comes to what S&W buyers really want. A wish list you say? Ok, here it goes:

4506 & 1006 (same money, make them on the same frame)
5906 & 6906 (again, same frame possibly?)
m10 in 10mm, both 5" & 6" (c'mon, a no-brainer)
940 J Frame 9mm (you did it once, do it again, it's really just a cylinder for the most part, ain't it?)
All stainless J Frame .22 Mag (don't care for aluminum alloy on 351 PD's frame and cylinder)

And for the love of all that's Holy in the universe, and for peace and good will towards men, DROP that idiotic frame lock and put the firing pin back on the hammer where the Heavens, Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson intended it to be!

Just a few pipe dream wishes....

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Old 11-24-2015, 02:47 PM
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Alrighty then, color me the odd ball who is willing to spend the $1100 on an all metal pistol because this afternoon I will do something I swore I would never do. After work I will go to the LGS and take delivery of a Sig, an M11A1 to be exact. I would much rather be picking up a new S&W of the same size and action but since they don't exist I'll buy from some company that makes what I want.

This is not to say I'll trade in or otherwise dispose of the Sheild. But damn, a 39 Classic would have so nice instead of having to stoop to buying a Sig.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:35 PM
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What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?  
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Alrighty then, color me the odd ball who is willing to spend the $1100 on an all metal pistol because this afternoon I will do something I swore I would never do. After work I will go to the LGS and take delivery of a Sig, an M11A1 to be exact. I would much rather be picking up a new S&W of the same size and action but since they don't exist I'll buy from some company that makes what I want.

This is not to say I'll trade in or otherwise dispose of the Shield. But damn, a 39 Classic would have so nice instead of having to stoop to buying a Sig.
Your post rings true. As I slowly approach the practical end of my 3rd Gen collecting and start to look at the other options before me for my remaining 4-1/2 good years, the Sig all-metal pistols appear to be the next obvious "investments" to consider. I enjoy shooting them at my (temporary) premium indoor range and my other options in all-metal handguns are either severely limited by state law or have already been adequately addressed. Plastic is fine to a point, but it just doesn't do much for me anymore.

The big problem, of course, is price. I am known locally as that poor, old "under $500" retired collector guy. Indeed, the longstanding agreement with my good wife is that I never buy a gun that costs more than $500 without her prior approval, which is hard to get and rarely granted.

To suddenly start spending double the current longstanding per-gun limit to start collecting Sigs is going to take a serious re-writing of our agreement. I'm not saying it will be impossible, but I'm sure going to have a whole lot of difficult 'splaining to do.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:43 PM
Dandecoteau Dandecoteau is offline
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Demise?
That's funny, obviously people love them still since I just bought one.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:43 PM
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But it seems they are incredibly myopic when it comes to what S&W buyers really want.
Nothing personal against you, but your words are quotable.

I think this is very much over-used by passionate gun folks who love a certain kind of older, discontinued gun. The kind of people who hang out in this area of this site obviously love these pistols and we chase them. And while nobody is likely to drop a thousand on a new production 5906, some of us would spend that on a 1006. But that isn't my point.

The point is that our passionate, vocal little group of folks is a smidge of a slice of a tiny bit of a small partial wee little nugget of the gun buying public. If anyone who reads this can't understand that or agree to it, just visit any large firearms/shooting discussion site that isn't dedicated to one brand or type and you'll see simply by the volume of discussion.

If you don't buy that as evidence, visit ANY shooting range and make note of everything you see and try and determine what percentage is a S&W metal framed 1-2-3rd Gen.

If you can't accept that, visit any/every gun store and tell us what the percentage is there. Sure we see some (we buy them and we show them off here!) but just look at the numbers.

The passionate arguments made in favor of the 3rd Gens were more relevant a decade ago than they are now. It's not because the pistols are worse now and new guns are better (no way), it's because TIME HAS PASSED. The world has evolved.

The answer to the question of WHY the 3rd Gens are "gone" is pretty simple, IMO. It is not the M&P line and not polymer guns across the board. The answer is the 1911. The ridiculous wave of popularity associated with the 1911 pretty much forced S&W to also jump in the fray and something had to give.

The 3rd Gen pistols is what had to give.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:45 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
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LGS had a used/like new M11A1 for IIRC just under $750 w/ three mags.....nice guns ......I've got a .40 229 w/ extra .357sig barrel.... but for concealed carry it's closer in size to a Compact Beretta 92 than a 6906 or a PC Shorty-9.


FWIW I bought my 229 about 5/6 years ago .......2 barrels and 4 mags...LNIB for a bit over $500.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:01 PM
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Those guns came out at the height of my interest in shooting.
They did not have a reputation as being particularly good guns.
There were a lot of other options at the time that seemed like much better choices.
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  #83  
Old 11-24-2015, 04:11 PM
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@ Sevens
While I respect your right to your opinion, I predictably disagree.

As has been pointed out, stainless metal handguns nearing the $1000 mark are selling quite well these days, as evidenced by the prolific breeds of 1911's, as well as the brilliant and by no means "time passed it by" Sig Classic Series. Sig just released a P220 in 10mm somewhere North of a grand, and it is selling quite well.

And the "time passing" argument falls apart even further because the last time I checked, the 1911 is well over a century old, and again it is persistently in high demand.

I stand by my statement: the reason 3rd Gens are not around is because S&W perceived it could make a higher margin by playing to the 'tactical zombie killing, Afghanistan pretend warrior' class that seems to think that only 19 rounds coupled with a Picatinny rail on a plastic frame will save you in a gunfight. Add to that that Smith hasn't been a company that really caters to its longtime loyal customers (translation: doesn't listen well) but rather chases dollars to the detriment of it's own base, and you get a situation where a darn fine platform that works brilliantly and is as tough as an M1A2 Abrams has been ditched for high profit, low workmanship polymer substitute.

Additionally, the simple fact S&W raised the fickle middle finger of fate at long time Smith buyers by abandoning (and subsequently lying with their "lifetime warranty" promise) the parts and support market for 3rd Gens says it all about who is really to blame.

Time and paying customers didn't abandon 3rd Gen Smith, but rather Smith abandoned a market to Sig, Beretta and a legion of 1911's because their bean counters said "We can make more faster now with plastic, screw our promise and to heck with 30+ year loyal buyers!"

This is the same company after all, that gutlessly scarred their revolvers with a useless, idiotic lock that NO ONE wants, simply because Hillary pointed her crooked finger at them and said 'Boo'.

Add to this the other issues that die hards hate (frame mounted firing pins, MIM parts) and you get a company that is clearly saying they're not interested in what customers want or desire, but are happy to feed them what Smith thinks is best. This is the kind of vacuum of leadership and service that did Colt in (granted however, it was much worse in Hartford than in Springfield.

Besides, I don't for a minute believe it would cost $1000 a unit to make those pistols, rather what it would cost simply isn't a big enough margin for S&W.

S&W could build these, many would sell. Admittedly not as many as they would polymers, but it would be likely enough to justify the tooling and reach back to connect with long time Smith fans. Other companies have done so, in fact Sig just re-released the P225, an all metal single stack 9mm that "time passed" by. And it's selling very well even at around an $800 price point.

So, no. I don't buy that a $700 to $800 priced 5906, 4506, 1006 would go fast. It's just not enough margin for the Scrooges over on Roosevelt Avenue ....

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Old 11-24-2015, 05:01 PM
petemacmahon petemacmahon is offline
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I can't really speak about Gen 3s, cause I've never owned any. I've shot a few and never liked any of them. Personally, I don't know how anyone can love any traditional DA (as in DA/SA) gun?! How many revolvers could anybody sell if the first shot was always double the effort as the rest - you would be laughed out the door.

That trigger system is dead, regardless of what the gun is made from. There are aftermarket aluminum frames for glocks. Don't blame the frame material, blame the trigger.

I've never had the opportunity to shoot a DAO gen3. I'd jump at the chance if it came along.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:04 PM
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@ Sevens
While I respect your right to your opinion, I predictably disagree.

As has been pointed out, stainless metal handguns nearing the $1000 mark are selling quite well these days, as evidenced by the prolific breeds of 1911's, as well as the brilliant and by no means "time passed it by" Sig Classic Series. Sig just released a P220 in 10mm somewhere North of a grand, and it is selling quite well.

And the "time passing" argument falls apart even further because the last time I checked, the 1911 is well over a century old, and again it is persistently in high demand.

I stand by my statement: the reason 3rd Gens are not around is because S&W perceived it could make a higher margin by playing to the 'tactical zombie killing, Afghanistan pretend warrior' class that seems to think that only 19 rounds coupled with a Picatinny rail on a plastic frame will save you in a gunfight. Add to that that Smith hasn't been a company that really caters to its longtime loyal customers (translation: doesn't listen well) but rather chases dollars to the detriment of it's own base, and you get a situation where a darn fine platform that works brilliantly and is as tough as an M1A2 Abrams has been ditched for high profit, low workmanship polymer substitute.

Additionally, the simple fact S&W raised the fickle middle finger of fate at long time Smith buyers by abandoning (and subsequently lying with their "lifetime warranty" promise) the parts and support market for 3rd Gens says it all about who is really to blame.

Time and paying customers didn't abandon 3rd Gen Smith, but rather Smith abandoned a market to Sig, Beretta and a legion of 1911's because their bean counters said "We can make more faster now with plastic, screw our promise and to heck with 30+ year loyal buyers!"

This is the same company after all, that gutlessly scarred their revolvers with a useless, idiotic lock that NO ONE wants, simply because Hillary pointed her crooked finger at them and said 'Boo'.

Add to this the other issues that die hards hate (frame mounted firing pins, MIM parts) and you get a company that is clearly saying they're not interested in what customers want or desire, but are happy to feed them what Smith thinks is best. This is the kind of vacuum of leadership and service that did Colt in (granted however, it was much worse in Hartford than in Springfield.

Besides, I don't for a minute believe it would cost $1000 a unit to make those pistols, rather what it would cost simply isn't a big enough margin for S&W.

S&W could build these, many would sell. Admittedly not as many as they would polymers, but it would be likely enough to justify the tooling and reach back to connect with long time Smith fans. Other companies have done so, in fact Sig just re-released the P225, an all metal single stack 9mm that "time passed" by. And it's selling very well even at around an $800 price point.

So, no. I don't buy that a $700 to $800 priced 5906, 4506, 1006 would go fast. It's just not enough margin for the Scrooges over on Roosevelt Avenue ....
I can't speak for all that but the Sig 10mm and 1911s aren't made anywhere near the same #s as the plastic frame 19 round Afghan warrior guns. Just cause you see them sell doesn't mean they sell in the same quantity. Sig has put out a lot of guns only to stop making them a year or two later. The initial interst could just be it. They may drop it by next year l. And they almost went bust years ago just selling their 220, 226, 228 239. Only when they started focusing more on other styles did they slowly emerge from almost complete failure.

1911s may seem like a lot but it's just a little from a lot of companies at different price points. I'm pretty sure more people buy the $400 then $1000 1911. And those companies are either smaller or they offset buy selling other styles as well.

How many 3rd gen would sell if they started making them? How many here would buy one on a constant basis? I see them for sale constantly in my area, which means some one is getting rid of one. If they get picked up its usually by a collector or accumulator. So for S&W to sell and make profit how many do they have to sell? They probably won't win any police contracts and how many civilians would keep buying them? I also don't see that many people carrying them. Look around, almost every post about carry is about what's the smallest and lightest. What can i pocket carry?
It's a niche market.

They don't like their loyal customers? So if my grandpa and his 2 buddies want to buy only what they're used to should S&W start production of Lemmon squeezers?


I understand you like their guns, and I like them too but I have one and don't plan to or see the need to have any more. So I can say that they won't have me as a customer.

Last edited by Arik; 11-24-2015 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:15 PM
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I owned a few SA/DA 3rd Gen. Smiths, and they all had terrible trigger pulls - long and heavy. Practically any pistol from other quality manufacturers was easier to use effectively.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:19 PM
Arik Arik is offline
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I owned a few SA/DA 3rd Gen. Smiths, and they all had terrible trigger pulls - long and heavy. Practically any pistol from other quality manufacturers was easier to use effectively.
Interesting. I find it quite the opposite. I wouldn't say they are light but certainly not heavy....and smooth. The only DA/SA I like are S&W and old German Sigs. All the others are heavy and gritty.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:59 PM
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I want that 67 GTX with the Hemi I could never afford in my ute, someone tell Plymouth(do they even exist?) to get the assembly line a crackin'
Real American iron, no plastic bumpers.
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:26 PM
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Default Just as a side note, here

I talked to a Peoria AZ officer today and he said something, interesting. When he is out shooting and he goes to eject the 1st EMPTY mag from his glock and he pushes the button and the mag JUST WON'T COME OUT sometimes, he has a VERY sick feeling, I did not know that they are PLASTIC. The pause and pull out could be the difference between live or death, he told me. Peoria AZ forces their officers to use glock or he would have a Springfield or such with METAL mags
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:44 PM
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I talked to a Peoria AZ officer today and he said something, interesting. When he is out shooting and he goes to eject the 1st EMPTY mag from his glock and he pushes the button and the mag JUST WON'T COME OUT sometimes, he has a VERY sick feeling, I did not know that they are PLASTIC. The pause and pull out could be the difference between live or death, he told me. Peoria AZ forces their officers to use glock or he would have a Springfield or such with METAL mags

He should probably check his mags or gun for issues. That's not normal. I've heard of the early Glocks not having drop free mags, but not the newer generations. I'm a handgun instructor for my department and we use gen 3 and gen 4 Glocks. Never recall ever seeing an issue with anyone ejecting their mags.
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:03 PM
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TexasRaider, I think you have misconstrued my argument with regards to time passing. I don't mean that the 3rd Gen design or style is out of date or old news and propping that argument with the success of the 1911 doesn't prove the point.

I'm suggesting that the 3rd Gen has been out of the spotlight for too long, that's what I mean about the passing of time. I'm saying that if it were 1998 right now, we could make a far more realistic argument for S&W keeping it alive.

As to S&W not catering specifically to buyers, S&W fans or to a market? Well, kind of makes them like almost all the other gunmakers these days. They are a for-profit company that also answers to share holders.

The current version of S&W, no matter what a bunch of gun cranks thinks, is far better than the LAST version of S&W, that's for sure. They bought the company at a depressed price & made them a huge player in the industry once again.

That may not be the kind of success this vocal little group cares for so much, but the value of the stock & viability of the company is far stronger today than it was when Tompkins nearly crashed and burned it entirely.
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:10 PM
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I can't really speak about Gen 3s, cause I've never owned any. I've shot a few and never liked any of them. Personally, I don't know how anyone can love any traditional DA (as in DA/SA) gun?! How many revolvers could anybody sell if the first shot was always double the effort as the rest - you would be laughed out the door.

That trigger system is dead, regardless of what the gun is made from. There are aftermarket aluminum frames for glocks. Don't blame the frame material, blame the trigger.

I've never had the opportunity to shoot a DAO gen3. I'd jump at the chance if it came along.
Oh man, I can't disagree strongly enough. The TDA system is just fine for those who devote some time and money in ammo (never a bad thing)into training. It's this new generation of guns that has created that animosity. Glock literally uses the "no safety levers to fumble with" in their sales pitch, as if learning how to use a safety (a device that has certainly prevented more deaths and injuries than has caused them) is such a hardship. Shooting a TDA weapon is completely natural if you take the time to master it, and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. ND's are less likely with a longer first shot, and far less likely with a hammer to cover with your thumb as you holster.

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Old 11-24-2015, 07:35 PM
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Always enjoy these endless "why don't they bring back the 3rd G?" threads, a diversion from the usual bacon, CTG, and puppy dogs.
It's funny how people rant and rave, ad nauseum, about clocked barrels, ill fitting parts, MIM, poor QC, yada yada("not your grampa's S&W"), then miraculously think a resurgence of 3rd Gen's will be any different. Really?
Ever ran a business yourself?

Maybe some old time gunsmiths will come out of retirement just to build them?

I'm in for a lightweight 45 should this miracle take place.

Do Sig, CZ, HK, Beretta make revolvers?

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Old 11-24-2015, 07:39 PM
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Nostalgia is a drug, I think.

At least we are all so fond of something fairly recent and in arguably high volume. They don't make 3rd Gens anymore... and that stinks. But on the good side, we sure have a lot of them to chase after.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:06 PM
texmex texmex is offline
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They finally figured out that autos are a passing fad. They should stick to revolvers.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:10 PM
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It's all such a moot point. They aren't coming back.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:22 PM
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If Orange is the new Black, then CZ's are the new 3rd Gens.

I'll keep my 3rd Gens and have a good time with them, but I've now added a CZ 75b Stainless and a CZ Tactical Sport to the mix and have come to highly appreciate them the more I shoot them.
Both feel better in the hand, are rock solid reliable, don't cost an arm and a leg (well, the maybe the CZ-TS), are as accurate as any 9mm you can buy today, and you can buy one just by picking up a phone since they are current production with lots of parts and upgrades available if you like.
My next will be a Compact and there will probably be more after that.

I have never gotten used to the 3rd Gen double-stacks feeling a bit large in the hand, but the CZ's fix that somehow and I feel very comfortable with the two double-stacks that I have.

Don't have an M&P. Never will. For plastic, I go Springfield XD's of various flavors.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:08 PM
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Do Sig, CZ, HK, Beretta make revolvers?
If Sig did make a revolver, although it would likely be 20% higher at the price point than a S&W, I'm sure it would be a heck of lot nicer and I doubt Sig would foist such unwanted stupidity on it's customers as an internal lock.

And bashing folks for preferring a very effective, reliable and extremely usable DA/SA metal pistol, dismissing them as unrealistic fogeys addicted to 'nostalgia' is neither an intelligent response nor a practical explanation, it is simply a childlike rock throwing insult.

If 'nostalgia' was such a bad idea business wise, explain to me again the soaring number of 1911 sales? Not much on the market older than that right now. And Smith's vigorous sales of their own revolvers (those ancient, obsolete, ineffective lead chunkers of yore) seem to be doing very well in the CHL market, thereby belying the notion of "old equals dead and useless."

Firearms are not buggywhips or muscle cars, stay apples to apples here. They are a unique product that have designs going back many, many decades. M1 Garands are still being made and sold *because* in no small part, they are very nostalgic. Why did Colt bring back the Delta Elite? Because it's the greatest tactical handgun ever? Uh, no. Because it's nostalgic and the 10mm (that huge, loud, obsolete mushroom cloud evoking monster) is in a wonderful resurgence.

Don't equate the fact that S&W won't build 3rd Gens again with the idea building them is a bad idea. Smith's will is not the market, it is only their desired response to the market, and there is a good chance they're missing an opportunity. Yes, S&W is a business that needs to make a profit and does answer to investors, but just because they are in this business doesn't mean they are right about every business decision. Simply put, not making them just might be a wrong decision. Remember the Sigma? The 586's in the 1980's with firing pins that stuck in magnum primers and disable many a State Trooper's handgun with one shot? Oh yeah, S&W can foul up horribly, has done so before. Still not convinced their M&P like is nearly as durable as advertised.

Lastly, as to 'obsolescence', I seriously doubt any murderous thug felon that has expired since 1988 due to being lawfully shot by an LEO or citizen with a 3rd Gen S&W suddenly feels more alive today because that weapon is no longer in fashion, because it cannot mount silly accessories around its dust cover or fails to hold 20 rounds. Those would be killers are still DRT, and the 3rd Gen Smith that put them in the dirt are still highly effective. And anyone who knows how to use and shoot a DA/SA such as the 3rd Gen clearly understands that is not a 'dead trigger' system.

But I suppose the numerous state and federal law enforcement agencies, Navy SEALS and other military outfits ordering Sig Sauer DA/SA's this year forgot to log onto this forum to find out how stupid they are for doing so, and to get ifresh instructions on what truly works.

May angels and ministers of grace protect those poor underequipped souls carrying a 5906, 4506 or 3914 tonight...time has passed them sadly by and, the clock having struck midnight, their weapons suddenly no longer function and will surely see their owners fall perilously to their doom....
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  #99  
Old 11-24-2015, 09:23 PM
Arik Arik is offline
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What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?  
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Originally Posted by BONDOBOB View Post
I talked to a Peoria AZ officer today and he said something, interesting. When he is out shooting and he goes to eject the 1st EMPTY mag from his glock and he pushes the button and the mag JUST WON'T COME OUT sometimes, he has a VERY sick feeling, I did not know that they are PLASTIC. The pause and pull out could be the difference between live or death, he told me. Peoria AZ forces their officers to use glock or he would have a Springfield or such with METAL mags
It's not the gun. Ok it could be but.....early mags were mad to NOT be drop free.the idea is that you pull the mag out and replace it with the full one.....ie....don't loose them. I have both types and if you look at websites that sell surplus Glock mags they will state that some won't drop free.

Have that officer spend $25 and buy a new mag to try....guaranteed it will drop free. He simply has the old mags that ate still in rotation
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Originally Posted by J. W. View Post
He should probably check his mags or gun for issues. That's not normal. I've heard of the early Glocks not having drop free mags, but not the newer generations. I'm a handgun instructor for my department and we use gen 3 and gen 4 Glocks. Never recall ever seeing an issue with anyone ejecting their mags.
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  #100  
Old 11-24-2015, 09:32 PM
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ladder13 ladder13 is offline
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What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths? What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?  
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I'd love a new Reg Mag when the petition gets started.
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1911, 3913, 3914, 4506, 5906, 6906, 915, beretta, ccw, commercial, concealed, extractor, glock, military, p226, p238, performance center, polymer, remington, ruger, s&w, sig arms, sigma, smith and wesson, walther

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