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Old 02-27-2012, 02:21 PM
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Default How common is a "Fail to Feed"?

I have a SW1911. It would fail to feed about once every 100 rounds. So, I shipped it back to S&W for repair. They replaced the Extractor spring and made a "barrel adjustment". It's anyone's guess as to what they mean by barrel adjustment.

Well, this past Saturday I put 300 rounds through it with no failures. That's good. Sunday I put another 116 rounds through it and had another failure to feed.

Is this normal?
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:19 PM
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it is, if te extractor spring is bad, or the barrel needs "adjusting". ;-)
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:00 AM
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Sorry to hear you are having a little trouble. I have two Smith 1911's with perfect performance. The only thing I had any trouble with were some lead nosed hollow point hand loads but that was strictly an ammo issue. I have fed all varieties of FMJ and HP outside of the one set of hand loads with zero problems. Keep shooting it with quality ammo and I bet it settles in. If not...back to Smith!
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:14 AM
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Having no knowledge of your level of experience or training I will offer two basic problems that may be overlooked, especially since your gun was rendered fresh by the those who should know. In my experience the two major causes of failure to feed, in a fresh semi-auto, are insufficient cleaning or lubrication and failure to retain a firm grip while firing.

Excessive powder residue and, or, too little lubrication can increase friction between the frame and slide, not permitting the slide to cycle freely. Our range had many signs admonishing, "Oil your slide or you may die."

Letting the wrist or the elbow flex during firing can permit the frame to move partially rearward with the slide causing a failure to eject (stove pipe) or a failure feed.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:32 AM
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Thanks for the reply gboling. I'm not super experienced, but I've fired my share of rounds.

Because I want to use this gun for self defense, I've been practicing controlled pairs. Because of my goals, I believe I'm keeping my wrist solid. While a weak grip or wrist is a possibility, I think I'm doing enough to prevent that particular cause.

Further, I have another 1911 and have no failures with it. Even my wife has fired that one with no failures. If we were going to see a failure to feed due to weak grip or wrist, I believe it would have been seen in the second 1911 as well.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
...
Well, this past Saturday I put 300 rounds through it with no failures. That's good. Sunday I put another 116 rounds through it and had another failure to feed.

Is this normal?
If you didn't clean the barrel and particularly the feeding ramp in between Saturday and Sunday, I'd say "yes", it's normal for some 1911's.

My '89 Colt Series 80 was the same way. Even if I ran a snake through it. On the advice of my range dude, I bought a $10 Wilson Combat chamber brush and use it about every 200 rounds.

Problem solved.
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:05 AM
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What magazines are you using? 1911s are very sensitive to magazines, and bad ones will cause an otherwise perfect 1911 to choke up.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:29 AM
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The gun was cleaned between the two days. Still, I think a 1911 should be able to go 500 rounds without cleaning. Even so, I clean my guns every time I get home from shooting.

I used the magazines it came with and Tripp Engineering Cobra mags.

I hear this about magazines a lot. My opinion is that if it won't work with the magazines it was supplied with, I want my money back.
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:55 PM
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What ammunition were you using when you experienced the failures-to-feed? Ammunition matters.

1911's made to tighter tolerances than the WWII guns usually require more in the way of lubrication, too. I've seen any number of 1911 shooters run their guns too dry and experience problems ... which disappear once they properly lube their guns (making it a "shooter" issue because of inadequate maintenance).

Also, a dirty/lubed gun tends to run better than a dirty/dry gun. A clean/lubed gun tends to run best of all. Which one was yours?

Even steel 1911's can be susceptible to shooter grip stability issues (which can include what's commonly called "limp-wristing"). This can become more likely toward the end of a shooting session ... and the use of lower powered ammunition can sometimes create more of a possibility for this sort of thing to occur. A relaxed grip and/or a "broken" (bent/unlocked) wrist, combined with ammunition operating at the lower end of the normal power range, may create more potential for frustration than someone using a good grip and better quality ammunition. Full slide travel, at the intended velocity, is required for good functioning.

1911's can sometimes be a bit fussy about the magazines, although the ACT-Mag & Tripp mags usually get good reviews from users. (I use both in my SW1911 and a Colt XSE, with excellent results ... and I've used at least 5 types of factory "duty" hollowpoints in those mags in my guns with excellent reliability.)

Ammunition influences can make this an even murkier issue.

As far as the company's repair?

There's a recommended range of tension for the SW1911 pivoting extractor (just like there are for the various 3rd gen pistols). While there's a 'standard' spring listed for the SW1911, S&W techs (and armorers) can use different extractor springs to obtain different tensions until a particular gun exhibits the proper tension and functioning. A spring which is too heavy can create feeding problems, for example, slowing the case rim's movement up under the extractor hook. This throws off the optimal feeding "timing". One that's too lightly tensioned can create extraction problems (extractor hook might bounce out and over the case rim under recoil.)

Adjusting the barrel can mean they discovered a machining/polishing adjustment was considered necessary in order to obtain the desired normal & optimal feeding. Not uncommon.

Also, remember that 1911's typically require more frequent recoil & magazine replacement than other pistol designs.

Just my thoughts.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:06 AM
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Thanks for your thoughts, but that doesn't answer the question.

Again, how often should ANY gun have a fail to feed? It's unrealistic to think that a gun will be 100% fail free. We train, or at least we should, to clear malfunctions.

So, how often will a normally working gun have a failure?
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
What magazines are you using? 1911s are very sensitive to magazines, and bad ones will cause an otherwise perfect 1911 to choke up.
In a failure to feed for any auto/semi-auto, magazines are the number 1 problem, at least in most cases. It should always be the first thing to check and is much more normally the problem than anything else. When you say failure to feed, you don't describe specifically what it does, i.e., not chambering completely, slide not stripping a round, or stripping a round partially. Do you store your magazines fully loaded? Are they aftermarket? Do you drop them when you reload? Try replacing your magazines, you may have one out of several that is bad, and you don't notice the failure until you use it, but you are not tracking the bad magazines.

A 1911, or any other quality auto should not have failures to feed, at all, unless there is a problem, the 1911 in particular. Read about the 1911 trials the Army conducted prior to adopting it for use; I don't believe any other weapon has passed with that kind of torture test and non-failure rate, ever. They had to provide a bucket of water for the NCOs firing the pistol to cool it as they became so hot, and after dunking, they continued to fire with no malfunctions. I have a 1911 made in 1936 that my grandfather carried in WWII and I have never had a malfunction of any kind with it. That's the reliability any 1911 should be able to achieve. Check those magazines, they're easy to replace and I'd be willing to bet that's the problem.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Thanks for your thoughts, but that doesn't answer the question.

Again, how often should ANY gun have a fail to feed? It's unrealistic to think that a gun will be 100% fail free. We train, or at least we should, to clear malfunctions.

So, how often will a normally working gun have a failure?
Mechanically? The pistol itself? Not often at all.

Due to shooter, ammunition, maintenance or magazine issues, though?

Hard to predict.

I've never had a feeding failure in my SW1911SC 5" since I bought it in '05. Not one with my Colt XSE stainless Government, either, which is older.

It's not uncommon to hear it said that on any given day, day in & day out, the most significant cause of feeding problems & stoppages with semiauto pistols is ... the shooter.
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:30 PM
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An occasional failure to feed is the price you pay for an auto of any caliber...you have to live with that or go to a revolver. Having said that, in my experience with 1911's more often than not, a good magazine with the proper follower for the bullet shape used and a good 11# Wolff spring will solve probably 90-95% of malfunctions. The rest can be attributed to bad ammo or extractor tension being too tight,

Like it or not, not all magazines will work well with all pistols. A Tripp 7 round mag will work with most as will 7 round Checkmate with a good spring. I have a SW1911SC that does not like Cobra Mags but does great with CM mags. Don't expect the factory mags that came with the pistol to be the end all of what it should or should not be. You have to experiment a bit with a 1911 if you encounter initial problems. It's the nature of the 1911 in many cases. Some work as intended right out of the box with the supplied magazines. Others won't and you have to adjust accordingly.

If you want a perfect out of the box pistol that works with the factory supplied mags, get an HK or try to find a 4506.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:00 PM
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>>Because I want to use this gun for self defense, I've been practicing controlled pairs. Because of my goals, I believe I'm keeping my wrist solid. While a weak grip or wrist is a possibility, I think I'm doing enough to prevent that particular cause.<<

Here is the solution that worked for me. Take the 1911 and oil it up real good and put it in the safe. Now get a 4506 and use that for self defense.

I am not making light of your problem but as I've stated, I have been there and I find that 3rd gens work every time with no excuses.

Bill
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:16 PM
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You didn't note how many rounds total are through the weapon. Since it's now expected that factory 1911s show up with clearances typical for target pistols, a breakin period of at least 500 rounds should be expected to smooth the various operating parts. You should also expect that proper lubrication is necessary to reduce friction that can contribute to functioning issues.

While magazines are the prime cause of feeding failures, the ammunition has to be of known good quality. I notice you didn't mention brand, bullet weight or type of ammo. Target ammo wouldn't be a good choice for breaking in a new weapon, look for a good brand of ball equivilent (230 gr @ 850 fps).

You also don't mention any specifics as to when the malfunction happens. While loading the first round hints that you're not letting the slide run free, don't try to ease the slide into battery. During shooting may hint at either grip or mental lapse. Your grip on the weapon should be firm, I've "cured" several malfunctioning weapons by maintaining a firm grip and teaching the owner to do likewise.

When I mention mental lapse, if you're thinking it's the last shot, or about a reload, or you're thinking about the second round in your 'controlled pair', your grip may unintentionally relax, causing the weapon to move excessively and that robs inertia from the slide. You might concentrate on firing single rounds rather than controlled pairs. Watch the front sight and when the sight drops back down onto the target, reset the trigger and fire again.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
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You didn't note how many rounds total are through the weapon. Since it's now expected that factory 1911s show up with clearances typical for target pistols, a breakin period of at least 500 rounds should be expected to smooth the various operating parts. You should also expect that proper lubrication is necessary to reduce friction that can contribute to functioning issues.
This is part of the whole problem with 1911s these days. I catch flak all the time for saying this, but the truth is most of them are built for target shooting, not down-in-the-mud combat. When the DoD was testing candidate 9mm pistols during the 1970's JSSAP tests, the control M1911A1 had a mean time between failures (MTBF) of just over 3,000 rounds. In other words, over 3,000 rounds were experienced between malfunctions of any kind. But it seems most new out of the box 1911s these days have a MTBF of maybe 2-300! It's ridiculous. I have a loosy-goosy Argentine 1911 clone that shoots all day and night without malfunctioning. I also have an equally loose Colt Series 80 that has gone tens of thousands of rounds with maybe a half dozen malfunctions in total. Your Smith should be equally reliable given the fact that S&W doesn't fit their pistols as ridiculously tight as some brands do. However you might ned to put another couple hundred rounds through it before it limbers up enough. If it doesn't, send it back to S&W and make them do it right.
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
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You didn't note how many rounds total are through the weapon.
In total, I have put 1,604 rounds through the gun. That doesn't include any rounds fired at S&W for testing. I think the gun has had enough rounds through it to have broken in.

It has been oiled.
It has been cleaned.
I have a firm grip.

Quote:
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When I mention mental lapse, if you're thinking it's the last shot, or about a reload, or you're thinking about the second round in your 'controlled pair', your grip may unintentionally relax
I'm not counting rounds and the FTF happens on first and second shots as well as new magazines.

I've tried three different magazines; factory, ACT and Tripp. All of them should be quality magazines.


While I realize the OP mentioned the problems I'm having, it really was intended to be a more generic discussion.


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Now get a 4506 and use that for self defense.
I find this kind of response to be annoying. However, it's funny in this case because I had a 4506 years ago. I got it not long after the discontinuation of the 645. I loved that pistol, but sold it because I needed some money. Now I wish I had it back.

What's more, I have a Rock Island Armory .45 Tactical and haven't had a single issue with it. I have 604 rounds through that one and haven't had a single issue.

Yes, I have other guns that seem to work better. I was just wondering if a failure every 500 rounds or so was acceptable. Apparently it isn't. Thanks for all your input.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:58 PM
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This is part of the whole problem with 1911s these days. I catch flak all the time for saying this, but the truth is most of them are built for target shooting, not down-in-the-mud combat. When the DoD was testing candidate 9mm pistols during the 1970's JSSAP tests, the control M1911A1 had a mean time between failures (MTBF) of just over 3,000 rounds. In other words, over 3,000 rounds were experienced between malfunctions of any kind. But it seems most new out of the box 1911s these days have a MTBF of maybe 2-300! It's ridiculous. I have a loosy-goosy Argentine 1911 clone that shoots all day and night without malfunctioning. I also have an equally loose Colt Series 80 that has gone tens of thousands of rounds with maybe a half dozen malfunctions in total. Your Smith should be equally reliable given the fact that S&W doesn't fit their pistols as ridiculously tight as some brands do. However you might ned to put another couple hundred rounds through it before it limbers up enough. If it doesn't, send it back to S&W and make them do it right.
The man knows of what he speaks.

There is no finer combat sidearm than a good 1911. Well, there's the 4506, and this IS a S&W forum...no offense meant, just joking around a bit.

The 1911 is an old design. It's also a wonderful design. It's also a design which needs some special attention to fitting during construction.

Modern CNC techniques have managed to minimize the amount of hand-fitting needed, but even so a few make their way out of every manufacturer's door that need just a bit more attention.

Welcome to the closely toleranced world of modern 1911s-where everyone wants a Wilson-level fit at 1/3 the price.

I can't tell you why yours has an occasional hiccup. Could be break-in (ridiculous, but off topic), could be magazines, could be extractor tension, could be a bit of shooter error. Who knows?

When you get a 1911 that works without issue they are phenomenal. When you get one that's fairly reliable, but not reliable enough to bet your life on, that's a heartbreaker. Let's face it, these are not cheap guns-if you buy a good quality version.

As to your question about reliability, I don't trust any semi auto that doesn't go at least 1,000 rounds without a malfunction. I prefer even more rounds without malfunctions, but that's just me.

Hope you find a good solution.

Best,

Heekma
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:22 PM
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If you got 300 rounds through a newer tight fitting 1911,WITHOUT cleaning and lubricating it then thats pretty good, especially from stainless. I wouldnt worry as long as it works the same day in and out .No problems until about 250-300 rounds.With good ammo. Even in the most extreme competition you wouldnt shoot that much w/o cleaning ang lubing , let alone some shootout.Yes I know other handguns will shoot all day but I dont know of any tight fitting/ newer make of 1911 that has that type of record. Usually I add a little lube after about 150 and that gets me through another 150 w/o problems, buts thats about it. Good luck , Bob
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:17 PM
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I can only answer your question from an engineering perspective and experience. I see alot of posts on a lot of forums about how Semi Auto's in general including 1911's are prone to fail if you are inexperienced, limp wristed or haven't properly cleaned your weapon. I went through what you are going through now with a Ruger SR9C back in Nov. Everything was about the ammo, mags, me (mostly me and how incompetent I was). I tried all the things I must have got wrong and in the end I sent the SR9C back to Ruger. It was failing to load ever 100 rounds or even less sometimes. Since I got it back fixed I have had maybe 1 FTL out of several tousand rounds. The problem was the gun. My point would be that a new pistol engineered to perform with all types of ammo under all kinds of conditions with lots of different trigger pullers. So if it is a problem right from the start, other than cleaning it well, send it back. My M&P .45 has never had a FTL and I shoot it 2X a week. Same with my Springfield 1911, brand new 3 weeks and 500 round so far. Still not 1 FTL. My CZ75B, new 4 weeks ago. Not 1 malfunction. My wife has a Bersa 380. Not 1 jam in 3 months.. she shoots it 3X a week. So my point and answer is this. A new 1911 or any new semi auto should jam very seldom. Maybe 1X per 2,000 rounds. If it jams frequently,(and you clean it well before your 1st outing) send it back. If it still jams and if it requires special magazines, if it's finicky to ammo, then buy a different model. That one is not engineered properly. We as shooters tend to believe we should adjust to the finicky nature of the pistol. I am saying that if you have to do that then you are using a sub standard design/build and letting that manufacturer get away with one. All gun manufactures make really well designed and manufactured guns and some not so much.
JMO and I am entitled to it. I hope this answers your question.
One more comment: There are some Gun Smithy kind of shooters that love to play with this sort of thing until they get their weapon well tuned. I seriously applaud their skill and tenacity. But the average shooter doesn't need to do all that with a well designed gun. They are made for average Joe to be able to unpack, clean, and shoot and shoot and shoot.
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:33 AM
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On magazines, I've had outstanding success with Metalform magazines for the 1911.

You do get some wierd stuff. I had a brand new Colt back in 1970 that averaged one malfunction per magazine with ball. I finally decided to gussy it up and sell it. After slightly lowering the ejection port, the malfunctions ceased and I still have it.

Your problem child may need a once over by a 1911 specialist-with your ammo and magazines.
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Old 03-10-2012, 12:29 PM
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Well, I have had my 1911PD for almost 2 years and I had a lot of fail to feed. I cleaned and lubed and it just got worse. I sent it back to S&W and they had it for about 2 weeks. I got it back and they installed a new barrel and I have put about 600 rounds down the pipe with no problem.

Rastoff, Thank you for your service.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:08 PM
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How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;?  
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Well, I got it back from S&W the other day and put 92 rounds through it yesterday. I had no problems.

I would have shot more, but I was out of ammo and it was cold and raining.

I will put more rounds through it shortly. If it fails again, I will be seeking a refund. I really like this gun and hope it doesn't come to that.

Just to sum up, here is all that was done:
Three different mags; Factory, ACT and Tripp Cobra
Polished feed ramp
Used factory ammo and re-manufactured ammo
1st trip to S&W; they replaced the Extractor Spring and made a Barrel Adjustment(I have no idea what that means)
2nd trip to S&W; they replaced the Extractor

Current round count is 1,694 so, it is broken in. It has been cleaned and oiled.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:58 PM
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How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbliss57 View Post
.... My point would be that a new pistol engineered to perform with all types of ammo under all kinds of conditions with lots of different trigger pullers. So if it is a problem right from the start, other than cleaning it well, send it back. ...
With this statement I must disagree. As an engineer, you must respect design parameters, yes? The 1911 is a 100 year old design intended by John Moses Browning to fire only 230 grain hardball ammunition at modest velocity. Period. The extractor, feeding ramp and ejector are built for a large radius smooth bullet. The springs are designed to react to a minimum and a maximum reaction due to the powder charge.

"Well, I beat the bejesus out of mine with (insert super dooper ammo here) and it still keeps on ticking." Yes, some people do that to their dogs, too. Some dogs put up with it and some don't.

Most people don't realize that and say: "Hey, it's the 21st century. A gun this expensive should shoot anything I feed it."

Sorry, not how it works. A New Old Stock Model T is still a Model T.

Out.
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:43 PM
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How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;?  
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Just to close this thread out, the gun is going back. It has had failures again and I'm no longer going to deal with it. S&W has said they will refund my money.

I'll be looking for another gun and most likely another brand.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:29 AM
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Default Acceptable failure rate.

There is no acceptable failure rate even though police and military trials may permit one or two failures per so many rounds. My S&W 1911 works every time out of the box both with the issued magazines and a Chip McCormack ten rounder. I've read several sources indicating that magazines made by Tripp Research are about as close to perfection as you can get. Glad to see you bought one.

Fixing your gun is a process of elimination. I also use just a bit of a commercial graphite based gun grease on the rails after each cleaning. My 1911 digests anything I feed it including all lead round nose and semi-wadcutters. Jacketed and ball ammo feed smoother than what comes out of a duck's south end.

Regarding ammunition, stay with factory loads for the moment. It doesn't have to be that $1.00 per round stuff. Any bargain ammo will do, be it Winchester white box, Walmart sale ammo, Wolf, Aguila or whatever. It all works.

And yes, it could be your shooting style or that you're allowing fatigue to overcome you.

Last edited by federali; 03-28-2012 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:30 AM
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Sorry that you got a lemon.
Since the 1970s when Colt quality started slipping and other got into the 1911 market, reliability has fallen.

Almost always I have been able to solve 1911 feeding problems using GI or Factory Colt mags (7rounders) with hybrid feed lips, adjusting extractor tension or replacing extractors, working on firing pin stops to hold the extractors properly. Only twice have I had to polish feed ramps and that was because of felt dings in the ramps.

A while back I read about a couple of contests where the game was to see if any guns could fire 1000 rounds without any maintenance. It was a no excuse contest. Of 40 guns only one 1911 and one Glock did. Brownings failed, all other 1911s, Glocks failed and all others failed.

Yet I have pre Series 70 and WWII guns that are tight and right. They never fail.
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:49 AM
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How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;?  
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If you could see me, you would know that it is very uncommon for me to fail to feed.

On a serious note...sorry to hear about your problems with this pistol. S&W 1911s are generally very reliable pistols, as are most of their other guns. I wouldn't swear off S&W because of one bad gun. It happens with almost all (if not all) other gun makers as well.

Anyway, good luck with your next pistol!
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:00 AM
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How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;? How common is a &quot;Fail to Feed&quot;?  
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Here's a decent article about 1911 magazines:

1911 Magazine Analysis
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