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Old 03-16-2012, 02:12 PM
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Default S&W Value Line

There is a lot of information...and misinformation about the S&W Value line of 3rd Gen autoloaders. I own a 457 and am impatiently awaiting arrival of my 411. I am interested in finding a 908 but am getting a little confused. If my understanding is correct the first "value line" models to come out were the 915, 411 and 457. As I understand it these were only slightly modified from the original 3rd gens that they represent. Then, later, S&W came out with other "value" models which had more significant modifications from the 3rd gen originals. These were the 909, 910 and 410. If all of this is true, where does the 908 fit in? Thanks for any info you can provide.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:18 PM
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The first generation of value series guns included only the 915 and 411. They did cut corners from the original line to save money, but still have a lot in common on the inside and outside. Non-Novak sights, less miling on the frame and a cheaper blue finish are the main differences.

Then the Assault Weapons Ban hit and the 915/411 went out of production. Smith & Wesson started producing polymer frame guns, which we all know by know are much cheaper to make.

Then the 908 came as part of the second value line (908, 909, 910, 410, 457) which is essentially stage two of reducing production costs as much as possible. This meant less milling on the slide and frame, no checkering or serrations on the frame, plastic sights and guide rods, etc. They are primarily distinguished by the blocky slide.

All said and done the value line guns are often not as pretty as the regular 3rd Gens, but their real "value" is in their functionality and often bargain prices.

Last edited by mlk18; 03-16-2012 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Spell check failed me...
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:57 PM
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I've got two value line guns: a 915 and a 909. Both are great shooters but believe it or not, the 909 is the most accurate of all my 9mm S&W autos.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:56 AM
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I'm glad to have a 915 as well as a 411. The 915 will get a Novak rear sight soon.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:05 PM
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As I understood it the 915 was a transition. Less machining and cheaper sights but still had all metal parts and a barrel with the central lug.

I've seen some pics comparing a 915 and a 910 (true value line) but I'm not where I can do a search right now.

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Old 03-17-2012, 01:44 PM
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Found some pics posted by dsk, post #15. Shows disassembled 910 and 915.
910 vs. 915

Dave
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birds Away View Post
There is a lot of information...and misinformation about the S&W Value line of 3rd Gen autoloaders. I own a 457 and am impatiently awaiting arrival of my 411. I am interested in finding a 908 but am getting a little confused. If my understanding is correct the first "value line" models to come out were the 915, 411 and 457. As I understand it these were only slightly modified from the original 3rd gens that they represent. Then, later, S&W came out with other "value" models which had more significant modifications from the 3rd gen originals. These were the 909, 910 and 410. If all of this is true, where does the 908 fit in? Thanks for any info you can provide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlk18 View Post
The first generation of value series guns included only the 915 and 411. They did cut corners from the original line to save money, but still have a lot in common on the inside and outside. Non-Novak sights, less miling on the frame and a cheaper blue finish are the main differences.

Then the Assault Weapons Ban hit and the 915/411 went out of production. Smith & Wesson started producing polymer frame guns, which we all know by know are much cheaper to make.

Then the 908 came as part of the second value line (908, 909, 910, 410, 457) which is essentially stage two of reducing production costs as much as possible. This meant less milling on the slide and frame, no checkering or serrations on the frame, plastic sights and guide rods, etc. They are primarily distinguished by the blocky slide.

All said and done the value line guns are often not as pretty as the regular 3rd Gens, but their real "value" is in their functionality and often bargain prices.
“Birds Away”:

You are quite correct in your belief that there is a lot of misinformation about the 3rd Generation-based “Value Line” Smith & Wesson pistols. With all due respect to others who have contributed to this and other threads on this site (such as this also-915/908-related one: Yes, this is another 915 thread, which includes a comment by me somewhere within it), there were no “first” (or “first generation”) or “second value line” guns as indicated in several places within your thread. The concepts and approaches as to what was made at different times starting (separately) in the early and mid 1990’s were different as were the terms used to describe them and the guns themselves.

As usual, I am loathe to include images of, and quotes from, things that I don’t have the rights to or that are not in the public domain (something that was also a focus of attention of the managers of this site a while back), but this post in still another thread (I assume to be OK in that regard or it would have been removed by now) shows catalog pages from what are purported to be the 1993, 1994 and 1996 S&W Catalogs, which apppear to bear out what I have said elsewhere ((This post was originally held back pending the..., “ar33c9” You might want to take a look at a..., and The 915 only enjoyed 2 years of production,...) even though I have not had the opportunity to go back through my hard files and verify things (date-wise) for myself: From the 1993 S&W catalog - ...

I’ll try not to rehash everything that is included in my earlier posts in those other threads but in direct reference to your questions (“I own a 457 and am impatiently awaiting arrival of my 411. I am interested in finding a 908 but am getting a little confused. If my understanding is correct the first "value line" models to come out were the 915, 411 and 457. As I understand it these were only slightly modified from the original 3rd gens that they represent. Then, later, S&W came out with other "value" models which had more significant modifications from the 3rd gen originals. These were the 909, 910 and 410. If all of this is true, where does the 908 fit in?”), I would say this:

1) The original gun in the first attempt to take some of the cost out of the base line, 3rd Gen, 9mm “Service” pistols, was the 915. It was not called a Value Line gun. The “Value Line” (in name, concept or multiple models) did not exist at the time of its introduction. The “changes” from the standard 5904 type pistol upon which it was based were largely cosmetic; except for the very noticeable lack of the Novak Rear Sight.

2) The 915 was ultimately followed up by the 411, where the same “ideas” as seen in the 915 were applied to a 40caliber gun (the 4004). It too was not a “Value Line” gun for that name, product line or breadth of alterations had not yet become a part of the S&W business plan.

3) When the “Value Line” was introduced, it took the cost savings allowed by further machining changes and replacement parts to a much greater degree but along with that was a move to toward a different and less traditional S&W pistol appearance (seen primarily in a slide that was no longer contoured as had been the case since the 1950’s but in some ways had moved closer to the square shouldered appearance of some of their then-current competition).

4) The “Value Line” was also just that: a “line” in that instead of one pistol that led (only) to a second (I will disregard similar attempts to take the costs out of certain models in the Revolver side of the house, which are clearly visible in that catalog page link I have provided here for they outside the scope of this discussion), the “Value Line” not only offered three calibers upfront (9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP) but also several different sizing formats as well.

5) These sizes or formats included the 910 (a double column, full size, service-type 9mm – something akin to a 5904), the 410 (a double column, full size, service-type 40S&W – something akin to a 4004), the 909 (a single column, full size, service-type 9mm – something akin to a 3904), the 908 (a single column, compact, 9mm –something akin to a 3914) and the 457 (a single column, compact, .45ACP – something akin to a 4513; except for color in the early guns).

I hope this helps you and I hope that everyone can see that I am not attempting to be rude or demeaning to those who have posted incorrect things about these guns (especially the 411 and 915) here and elsewhere but as we all know, the Internet can sometimes be very much like those games that kids play where something gets repeated enough times and people begin to accept it as correct (whether it is or not) or where something that starts at one end of a line is substantially transformed into something else by the time it reaches the other side.

I was part of the 915 program and while I fully acknowledge that over time some things can be “misremembered”, what I am telling you here is at least partially supported by those catalog pages I mentioned above and much of what I have read in various threads about these guns is just plain “wrong” but is being related as “right” by people who just weren’t there at the time but who I am sure honestly believe it to be true. I just figured that it was time to try and set the record straight.

I hope that this information is what you were looking for.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:46 AM
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Thanks for posting, Dave Nash.

I Appreciate the information.

Dave
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:13 PM
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You lost me at "You are quite correct in your belief that there is a lot of misinformation about the 3rd Generation-based". Maybe it was the tiny tiny font.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:31 PM
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Default 910 differences and thoughts

Hey All,
Here's a pic of my 910.
The main differences between the 910 and the earlier 915,
were:


1- The 915 is machined with more detail and finished better.
2-The 915 barrel has the barrel lug, the 910 barrel does not.
3- The 915 has a few more full metal parts, such as the mag release and the guide rod. Where as the mag release and guide rod are both plastic items on the 910. I thought of replacing these items when I first bought this gun used, have had since changed my mind...functions so well as is...there's just no point to it.

The 910 is a very good weapon, easy to shoot(fun to shoot) with very mid recoil. Bargain it is...especially for us who own them!


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Old 03-18-2012, 08:29 PM
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Oh great! Now I want a 910 too. Thanks alot.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:12 PM
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Model numbers were pegged to magazine capacity, that is why the models 915 and 411 came before the 910 and 410. When they updated the 915 and 411 during the ban years post 94 they changed the model numbers instead of adding a dash number like usual. So even though magazines were interchangeable the 910 and 410 shipped with 10 round mags.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:27 PM
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Thank you, Mr. Nash. I greatly appreciate the information. Since I first posted this my 411 arrived and I couldn't be happier with the gun and the deal I got on it. Since then I have ordered a 915 also. Thanks again for the info. On another note, can you refer me to someone who could help me get over this S&W auto thing. It seems to be getting worse.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:09 AM
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Default 410 vs 909 Parts

Can anyone tell me if a 410 slide will fit the 909 frame?
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by gek1105 View Post
Can anyone tell me if a 410 slide will fit the 909 frame?
Yes, I can.

No, it won't.

John
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birds Away View Post
Thank you, Mr. Nash. I greatly appreciate the information. Since I first posted this my 411 arrived and I couldn't be happier with the gun and the deal I got on it. Since then I have ordered a 915 also. Thanks again for the info. On another note, can you refer me to someone who could help me get over this S&W auto thing. It seems to be getting worse.
There is no cure, none at all. All you can possibly hope for is that Smith and Wesson runs out of guns before you run out of money.

I SWORE my 669 would be my last; but then fell in love with a single stack compact, so I got a 908. Swore that would be my last.

But now I'm looking for a straight 59 so I can all three gens of that series; and a 439 (539 or 639) so I can have all three gens of the 39 series (and when I get them, I'll probably want a 39 no dash)....and on it goes.

Easiest thing to do is simply give in and keep having fun. There's no pockets in a shroud (as me ole Irish father-in-law used to say.)
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:09 PM
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Thanks for reviving this old thread. I love my 457, never really new the history though...
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Nash View Post
Birds Away”:

You are quite correct in your belief that there is a lot of misinformation about the 3rd Generation-based “Value Line” Smith & Wesson pistols. With all due respect to others who have contributed to this and other threads on this site (such as this also-915/908-related one: Yes, this is another 915 thread, which includes a comment by me somewhere within it), there were no “first” (or “first generation”) or “second value line” guns as indicated in several places within your thread. The concepts and approaches as to what was made at different times starting (separately) in the early and mid 1990’s were different as were the terms used to describe them and the guns themselves.

As usual, I am loathe to include images of, and quotes from, things that I don’t have the rights to or that are not in the public domain (something that was also a focus of attention of the managers of this site a while back), but this post in still another thread (I assume to be OK in that regard or it would have been removed by now) shows catalog pages from what are purported to be the 1993, 1994 and 1996 S&W Catalogs, which apppear to bear out what I have said elsewhere This post was originally held back pending the..., “ar33c9” You might want to take a look at a..., and The 915 only enjoyed 2 years of production,...) even though I have not had the opportunity to go back through my hard files and verify things (date-wise) for myself: From the 1993 S&W catalog - ...

I’ll try not to rehash everything that is included in my earlier posts in those other threads but in direct reference to your questions (“I own a 457 and am impatiently awaiting arrival of my 411. I am interested in finding a 908 but am getting a little confused. If my understanding is correct the first "value line" models to come out were the 915, 411 and 457. As I understand it these were only slightly modified from the original 3rd gens that they represent. Then, later, S&W came out with other "value" models which had more significant modifications from the 3rd gen originals. These were the 909, 910 and 410. If all of this is true, where does the 908 fit in?”), I would say this:

1) The original gun in the first attempt to take some of the cost out of the base line, 3rd Gen, 9mm “Service” pistols, was the 915. It was not called a Value Line gun. The “Value Line” (in name, concept or multiple models) did not exist at the time of its introduction. The “changes” from the standard 5904 type pistol upon which it was based were largely cosmetic; except for the very noticeable lack of the Novak Rear Sight.

2) The 915 was ultimately followed up by the 411, where the same “ideas” as seen in the 915 were applied to a 40caliber gun (the 4004). It too was not a “Value Line” gun for that name, product line or breadth of alterations had not yet become a part of the S&W business plan.

3) When the “Value Line” was introduced, it took the cost savings allowed by further machining changes and replacement parts to a much greater degree but along with that was a move to toward a different and less traditional S&W pistol appearance (seen primarily in a slide that was no longer contoured as had been the case since the 1950’s but in some ways had moved closer to the square shouldered appearance of some of their then-current competition).

4) The “Value Line” was also just that: a “line” in that instead of one pistol that led (only) to a second (I will disregard similar attempts to take the costs out of certain models in the Revolver side of the house, which are clearly visible in that catalog page link I have provided here for they outside the scope of this discussion), the “Value Line” not only offered three calibers upfront (9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP) but also several different sizing formats as well.

5) These sizes or formats included the 910 (a double column, full size, service-type 9mm – something akin to a 5904), the 410 (a double column, full size, service-type 40S&W – something akin to a 4004), the 909 (a single column, full size, service-type 9mm – something akin to a 3904), the 908 (a single column, compact, 9mm –something akin to a 3914) and the 457 (a single column, compact, .45ACP – something akin to a 4513; except for color in the early guns).

I hope this helps you and I hope that everyone can see that I am not attempting to be rude or demeaning to those who have posted incorrect things about these guns (especially the 411 and 915) here and elsewhere but as we all know, the Internet can sometimes be very much like those games that kids play where something gets repeated enough times and people begin to accept it as correct (whether it is or not) or where something that starts at one end of a line is substantially transformed into something else by the time it reaches the other side.

I was part of the 915 program and while I fully acknowledge that over time some things can be “misremembered”, what I am telling you here is at least partially supported by those catalog pages I mentioned above and much of what I have read in various threads about these guns is just plain “wrong” but is being related as “right” by people who just weren’t there at the time but who I am sure honestly believe it to be true. I just figured that it was time to try and set the record straight.

I hope that this information is what you were looking for.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to read a black font on a grey background???
I am removing color so all the other old farts like me...can read this
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Old 08-24-2014, 12:20 AM
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Default just my two cents

Now most importantly is I am not STRICTLY a S&W man but I have a 4006 & a 410S. At the range they BOTH are accurate at 15 yds and BOTH are deadly accurate at 10 yds, BOTH are exactly the same for accuracy. I bring this up because at 15 yrds someone would be in my warning zone and by them proceeding to 10 yrds & have been given a 2nd verbal warning,
closer than that, EITHER one would do the entended thing accurately.
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Old 08-24-2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONDOBOB View Post
Now most importantly is I am not STRICTLY a S&W man but I have a 4006 & a 410S. At the range they BOTH are accurate at 15 yds and BOTH are deadly accurate at 10 yds, BOTH are exactly the same for accuracy. I bring this up because at 15 yrds someone would be in my warning zone and by them proceeding to 10 yrds & have been given a 2nd verbal warning,
closer than that, EITHER one would do the entended thing accurately.
Get a squirt gun, fill it.
Get a fast friend to stand 10 yards away, and to try to touch you without getting squirted...
the verbal warning being the "GO" for him...and you not allowed to squirt until he MOVES towards you...

10 yards is not as far away as most folks think...
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Old 08-24-2014, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONDOBOB View Post
Now most importantly is I am not STRICTLY a S&W man but I have a 4006 & a 410S. At the range they BOTH are accurate at 15 yds and BOTH are deadly accurate at 10 yds, BOTH are exactly the same for accuracy. I bring this up because at 15 yrds someone would be in my warning zone and by them proceeding to 10 yrds & have been given a 2nd verbal warning,
closer than that, EITHER one would do the entended thing accurately.
Considering that most street robberies begin at 3 or 4 feet, and in a home invasion, you're looking at 10 or 15 feet before you hit a wall or corner, I'm not sure where you're going with this.
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Old 08-24-2014, 04:14 PM
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Wink All I am saying

is that if you can find an accuracy difference at a safe killing range, more power to you, I surely can not
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:21 AM
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FWIW, the 908 I bought new in 1999 has a metal magazine catch with a plastic button. I replaced the plastic rear sight with a metal Novak w/ adjustible elevation. It still has the plastic guide rod.
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:43 AM
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I am an owner of the value line pistols.

I am also a big fan and proponent of the 4513TSW handguns.

Having shot both a 457 and a 4513TSW, alongside each other, I can tell you definitively that there is no difference in reliability or accuracy, in my hands, between the two models. They are both superb.

There are some construction, asthetic, material and finish differences and the 4513TSW is a "nicer" pistol, IMO. But I am completely satisfied and quite happy with my new to me 457.

My 910 pistol went 19,000 rounds before I cracked a frame rail. It still functions safely. I just don't shoot it as much. I more than got my money out of it. Fine handgun.

I would buy and carry a value line, or "American Pride" pistol as the value line was later named, before I'd buy or carry any of those plastic guns they are peddaling today. Regards 18DAI
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