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  #51  
Old 04-04-2012, 07:57 PM
Sauergrapes Sauergrapes is offline
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I've been going back and forth with S&W for 3 months trying to get a decocker for my 4006. It's frustrating that parts are difficult to obtain.

I love the S&W autos but, I think I'm going to sell mine. I just don't see the point in owning guns I can't get parts for.
If I need a paperwieght, I'll go to Staples.
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  #52  
Old 04-04-2012, 09:31 PM
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Buy an old parts pistol cheap...or, if you decide to sell, let me know what you have. On the other hand, this may help get you started in the right direction.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...SEMBLY-LEFT-SS
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  #53  
Old 04-05-2012, 12:33 AM
VTHokiesDuckHunter VTHokiesDuckHunter is offline
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Originally Posted by ladder13 View Post
I think the NYPD allows the 5946 as a duty gun along with Glock 19 and Sig P226 DAO. AND revolvers are grandfathered in for the older guys.

Perhaps you mean off-duty guns? They're having a big switch right now, officers are turning in their Kahr K9's and $50 for a new G26. My FFL is inundated with NYPD coming in and switching OD's.
Don't forget the WVSP (West Virginia State Police) just made a very large order of Melonite 4566's:

Quote:
After evaluating competitive firearms, officials within the West Virginia State Police Department chose to continue using the Smith & Wesson 3rd Generation Model 4566 TSW metal frame pistols. The new firearms ordered by the department feature two new enhancements over the previously issued side arms. As requested by the department, the new pistols feature a Picatinny-style equipment rail for optional accessories and a Melonite® finish for increased durability. With the deployment of the new pistol, Department officers are currently using Smith & Wesson products for both their pistol and their patrol rifle duty firearms.

The West Virginia State Police issued the following statement regarding the new firearms:

“The West Virginia State Police Department has selected the Smith & Wesson 4566 TSW pistols in addition to the recent procurement of the Smith and Wesson M&P15 patrol rifles. Smith & Wesson’s Law Enforcement support team has been exceptional in the understanding and insight provided for the selection of these weapons for the West Virginia State Troopers. The West Virginia State Police expects to maintain this professional relationship with Smith & Wesson to ensure that its troopers are adequately equipped to help ensure the safety of the public and the law enforcement officers themselves.”
S&W also continues to make the 952. I think you will continue to see both OEM and aftermarket parts available for 3rd gens.

I would buy a Melonite 4566 in a heartbeat. They are absolutely crazy not to make some special runs of these guns, along with 3913's, 5903's, CS series, and Shorty 40's.
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  #54  
Old 04-05-2012, 12:37 AM
VTHokiesDuckHunter VTHokiesDuckHunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauergrapes View Post
I've been going back and forth with S&W for 3 months trying to get a decocker for my 4006. It's frustrating that parts are difficult to obtain.

I love the S&W autos but, I think I'm going to sell mine. I just don't see the point in owning guns I can't get parts for.
If I need a paperwieght, I'll go to Staples.
Sauer:

I wouldn't give up on it. Most guys find parts pretty quickly on these forums, or eventually through S&W. They are starting to make some new orders for LEO's (like the recent large order by the WVSP for Melonite 4566's).

That's kind of like saying you're getting rid of a mint '69 Corvette because you can't get parts from GM or NAPA.

I'm a little frustrated too, that they aren't making production runs of certain 3rd gens. But I believe they will soon. The new 1911 line is selling well, and they are getting more and more pressure from LEO organizations for metal pistol options.

In the mean time, keep your 4006 and buy a SIG or Beretta!
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  #55  
Old 04-05-2012, 02:53 AM
Sirten Deth Sirten Deth is offline
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Default Am I in trouble?

I might be in bad trouble from the sounds of this thread. My favorite piece is a 2nd gen. mdl. 909 that I got from Boise gun via Auction arms. It appears to be in Exceptional condition. I dont even shoot it much, it looks so good. I hope it stays that way. I have a CZ 75b & an FEG PA63 (9x18 mak.) that I shoot the s--- out of. I also need to get some more time on my Ti. Tracker .357, if this damned rain will ever quit. Its been one wet spring, after a nasty winter, so far. Happy times to all.
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  #56  
Old 04-05-2012, 01:10 PM
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Obsolete?
I bought a Model 6906 in the early '90s and carried it every day in some of the worst terrain & weather conditions you can imagine.
Definitely "severe-duty environment".
I was operating a lunch-wagon business in rural Miami-Dade County at the time, requiring that I carry cash deep in the boonies/B.F.E./middle-of-nowhere, and that pistol allowed me to survive (and come out on the winning end of) three armed-robbery attempts.
It concealed beautifully, performed flawlessly & never failed to do what it was designed to.
It's still my CCW gun of choice to this day.
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  #57  
Old 04-05-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Nagel View Post
West Virginia State Police just purchased a large quantity of 3rd generation S&W 4566's all metal pistols. I believe LAPD Officers can still special order 4506 and 4566 pistols. A department here in Ohio just purchased about 50 new 3rd generation pistols. I believe they were 4566's so S&W will make and maintain for Law Enforcement agencies. Just not for the general customer or shooter.
I seem to remember talk here a few years ago about putting together a "special order" from Smith. I forgot the guy who was trying to put it together. Don't recall the number that was needed for them to crank em' out, something like 50 or 100??? More??? Maybe Smith wouldn't do a civilian order. I'm sure someone like Lew Horton could do it, if they knew the market was there.
Problem is getting 50 to 100 or more people to agree on the same gun, who would "hold" the money since no one is going out on a limb and paying for 100 guns all by themselves, and getting an FFL to order and distribute them. Probably more issues than those.
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  #58  
Old 04-05-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauergrapes View Post
I've been going back and forth with S&W for 3 months trying to get a decocker for my 4006. It's frustrating that parts are difficult to obtain.

I love the S&W autos but, I think I'm going to sell mine. I just don't see the point in owning guns I can't get parts for.
If I need a paperwieght, I'll go to Staples.
Are you talking about the optional spring-loaded, decock-only assembly? If so, that option requires either a slide modification of the older 4006's, or else a 4006TSW (which has the necessary slide modification). Both the standard manual safety and the spring-loaded version were made in both plain stainless and black finish.

Also, that option was originally designed and intended for use on LE guns, although S&W was doing modifications and installations for the occasional commercial gun (back when the 3rd gen's were still in production).

While the CHP (CA Highway Patrol) out here have that option on their 4006TSW's, and the company will stock repair parts for them, I've been told that it's not an option (parts assembly) that they're usually keeping in-stock for retail sales (to either vendors or retail customers). They might request some short production runs of that part from their vendor from time to time (and which also requires some in-house machining of the received cast parts to finish them), but don't be surprised if it becomes an "obsolete" part at some point for "retail sales".

Yes, it's a shame that S&W has mostly left the metal-framed traditional double action service pistol market to Sig and Beretta (when S&W was making it before both companies), but don't be surprised to see both of those other companies slowly shift manufacturing & sales emphasis over to their own plastic framed pistols for LE/Gov sales at some point. The costs and time involved in forging and machining metal frames simply can't be reduced to that of what's involved in making plastic frames.
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  #59  
Old 04-05-2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Are you talking about the optional spring-loaded, decock-only assembly? If so, that option requires either a slide modification of the older 4006's, or else a 4006TSW (which has the necessary slide modification). Both the standard manual safety and the spring-loaded version were made in both plain stainless and black finish.

Also, that option was originally designed and intended for use on LE guns, although S&W was doing modifications and installations for the occasional commercial gun (back when the 3rd gen's were still in production).

While the CHP (CA Highway Patrol) out here have that option on their 4006TSW's, and the company will stock repair parts for them, I've been told that it's not an option (parts assembly) that they're usually keeping in-stock for retail sales (to either vendors or retail customers). They might request some short production runs of that part from their vendor from time to time (and which also requires some in-house machining of the received cast parts to finish them), but don't be surprised if it becomes an "obsolete" part at some point for "retail sales".

Yes, it's a shame that S&W has mostly left the metal-framed traditional double action service pistol market to Sig and Beretta (when S&W was making it before both companies), but don't be surprised to see both of those other companies slowly shift manufacturing & sales emphasis over to their own plastic framed pistols for LE/Gov sales at some point. The costs and time involved in forging and machining metal frames simply can't be reduced to that of what's involved in making plastic frames.
I can see Beretta doing that with their PX4 series once the M9 is replaced. Simply put, between civilian and government sales the M9 is a cash cow for them. However, with SIG I don't think we'll see them push their P250 series in place of the P220/226/229 etc. That is their flagship series, and quite honestly what draws people to their brand. The P250 is just to compete with budget pistols and would never replace a full size combat grade handgun.
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  #60  
Old 04-05-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lawman90 View Post
However, with SIG I don't think we'll see them push their P250 series in place of the P220/226/229 etc. That is their flagship series, and quite honestly what draws people to their brand. The P250 is just to compete with budget pistols and would never replace a full size combat grade handgun.
Actually, even Sig has stated that their new P250 platform was designed to offer LE/Gov/Military customers a new platform, allowing them the opportunity to create either a full-size service pistol (uniform) or a fairly smallish compact (plainclothes), depending on their needs. The modularity of the model overcomes the necessity of having to buy different size serialized metal frames.

Expect them to increasingly push this series in the future (as soon as it does as well as they'd desire in exhaustive LE/Gov testing). The 250 line, as well as the 2022 line, may well become the "flagship" models for the future of LE/Gov/Military marketing at some point in the US. (Look to the international Gov sales market of Sig service pistols to see the potential future trend in this regard.)

The "Classic" lines may well someday go the way of S&W's 3rd gen guns if private owners/customers start curtailing their purchases of the increasingly expensive pistols that require forged and machined metal frames.
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  #61  
Old 04-05-2012, 04:35 PM
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Default Fastbolt...

As we are talking about "retired" 2nd/3rd gens and you are "retired"... on behalf of many of us I hope you took early retirement and are only in your 30's

You are an invaluable source of information and experience. We need you around for many, many years.

Now, get off the computer and go hit the treadmill

Lad
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  #62  
Old 04-05-2012, 06:30 PM
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Thanks for the concern.

The 60 year mark is looming ahead much closer than I'd prefer.

Trust me, I'm trying hard to keep on top of some of the inevitable issues that can arise as we fight the ravages of aging (work-related injuries & health issues which have occurred over the years can complicate things, a bit, too).

After apparently (hopefully) having successfully dealt with a serious health issue almost 2 years ago (which pretty much side-lined me for most of a year), I've been back to hitting the weights, continuing my lifelong arts training ... and even doing some general aerobics (I hate running).

A good friend of mine has often reminded me that 50 is the new 30, which means I really ought to only feel like I'm in my late 30's again, right? (Hany Rambod, who might be familiar to some weight training enthusiasts from his articles in bodybuilding magazines, his Evogen supplement line and him being a trainer for the top couple of Olympia winners.)
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  #63  
Old 04-05-2012, 07:10 PM
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Getting older rather sucks. You loose teeth, hair and muscle tone and begin to sag and get wrinkles. You have hair growing in your ears and nose when it should be growing on your head. It's a treat to be able to get up and walk down the hall in the morning. An all nighter means you get to sleep all night without having to get up and pee. Enjoy your youth, guys and gals...it goes quickly.
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  #64  
Old 04-05-2012, 09:47 PM
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The GUNS are not obsolete. No comment on those of us using them.
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  #65  
Old 04-07-2012, 11:52 AM
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I was told the 908 was now obsolete also by s&w. I assume that the very common parts that the gen 3 models share may be available like mags.

I had a worn out mag catch and wanted a new one. S&w no longer sells the part. They did send me a return by fed ex to return the pistol to them for repair......i assume they may have some parts in house for warranty work but who knows.

I found one last 908 catch at brown ells and bought it. If it is a newer metal one then that will be great!
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  #66  
Old 04-07-2012, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badkarma 1 View Post

As for as the 3rd Gen being obsolete, that's like saying the P-51 Mustang (despite being a great platform for eight .50cal Brownings!) is out to pasture as a fighter!
While I fully agree there is nothing obsolete about the 3rd Gen auto, the P-51 Mustang most assuredly is as a fighter. Has been since 1944 when the first Me-262 jet flew into combat. And depending on the model, the Mustang carried four (P-51A/B/C) or six (P-51D/H/K) .50 cal. Brownings. The only operational eight gun American fighter was the larger P-47 Thunderbolt.
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  #67  
Old 04-07-2012, 03:43 PM
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This is a great thread. Thanks to the OP for starting this discussion. I only have 7 3rd gens... my solution is to try and have two of each model... so I still have a few to pick up. I'll shoot one and keep one for parts.

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  #68  
Old 04-07-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Thanks for the concern.

The 60 year mark is looming ahead much closer than I'd prefer.

Trust me, I'm trying hard to keep on top of some of the inevitable issues that can arise as we fight the ravages of aging (work-related injuries & health issues which have occurred over the years can complicate things, a bit, too).

After apparently (hopefully) having successfully dealt with a serious health issue almost 2 years ago (which pretty much side-lined me for most of a year), I've been back to hitting the weights, continuing my lifelong arts training ... and even doing some general aerobics (I hate running).

A good friend of mine has often reminded me that 50 is the new 30, which means I really ought to only feel like I'm in my late 30's again, right? (Hany Rambod, who might be familiar to some weight training enthusiasts from his articles in bodybuilding magazines, his Evogen supplement line and him being a trainer for the top couple of Olympia winners.)
Hey guys you are all puppys. I'm about to turn 77 and just purchased my first Smith semi auto (4553TSW). My plinker guns are 44Mags and a FA 454 and I want to try the Smith for a carry gun. I joined the group to see what I needed to help it out if it needed it. My supplements are Angus ribeye, six eggs and a bunch of bacon for morning starters,and a gallon of ice cream a week. 6'5" 338lbs and shoot iron sights. Real firearms are pieces of art and not made of plastic. Now I hope I didn't upset anyone because you all seem to be great with needed information and I'm sure I will be looking.
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  #69  
Old 04-07-2012, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bpatza View Post
Hey guys you are all puppys. I'm about to turn 77 and just purchased my first Smith semi auto (4553TSW). My plinker guns are 44Mags and a FA 454 and I want to try the Smith for a carry gun. I joined the group to see what I needed to help it out if it needed it. My supplements are Angus ribeye, six eggs and a bunch of bacon for morning starters,and a gallon of ice cream a week. 6'5" 338lbs and shoot iron sights. Real firearms are pieces of art and not made of plastic. Now I hope I didn't upset anyone because you all seem to be great with needed information and I'm sure I will be looking.
Sounds like you're a wang leather, beef & beans kind of guy? Hey, my dad was a cowboy on a working ranch in Colorado at one point when I was a youngster.

There's something to be said for blued steel and wood. No argument.

I grudgingly accepted stainless steel ... even though it doesn't look as clean, as quickly, as blued steel.

I'm not much of "breakfast" person, myself (unless "breakfast" is at noon). Coffee to face the world, and then something else if it looks like the world is still worth facing for the new day. (My nutritionist & bodybuilding trainer friend gives me some chiding over not downing a good slug of protein first thing in the morning. I've just found that strong black coffee & a good cigar seem to get those early mornings working a range session go better.)

I applaud you for your health and activity in your late 70's. Keep it up into your 90's, if you can make it work.

I took various injuries (mostly work-related) and a couple of related surgeries more or less in stride when I was younger (like I had a choice?), but once the teeth and some joints decided they weren't inclined to keep pace with the rest of the body ... and an experience with cancer which required surgery and chemo came along ... well, the whole "aging" thing made me wonder what else was hidden in the fine print. (I'll be the first to admit it beats the hell out of the alternative, though. )

Enjoy the 4553TSW. Good self-shucker. Hogue grips might help improve it a bit if your hands are as large as your height/weight might indicate. I never cared for the DAO models as much as the traditional DA models, myself, but they're pretty good when you start to compare them to other metal-framed DAO pistols.

Best regards.
fb
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:29 PM
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I guess if someone is worried about availability of parts for a psitol or revelver that they carry and shoot, I would stick with VERY common guns that were issued to LE and military worldwide and were made in huge numbers.

Browning Hi Power P35
Full size 1911 in .45ACP
Glock 17.
Beretta 92 series
SIg P226
S&W K/L frame DA revolvers 38/357

My .02 worth.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Sounds like you're a wang leather, beef & beans kind of guy? Hey, my dad was a cowboy on a working ranch in Colorado at one point when I was a youngster.

There's something to be said for blued steel and wood. No argument.

I grudgingly accepted stainless steel ... even though it doesn't look as clean, as quickly, as blued steel.

I'm not much of "breakfast" person, myself (unless "breakfast" is at noon). Coffee to face the world, and then something else if it looks like the world is still worth facing for the new day. (My nutritionist & bodybuilding trainer friend gives me some chiding over not downing a good slug of protein first thing in the morning. I've just found that strong black coffee & a good cigar seem to get those early mornings working a range session go better.)

I applaud you for your health and activity in your late 70's. Keep it up into your 90's, if you can make it work.

I took various injuries (mostly work-related) and a couple of related surgeries more or less in stride when I was younger (like I had a choice?), but once the teeth and some joints decided they weren't inclined to keep pace with the rest of the body ... and an experience with cancer which required surgery and chemo came along ... well, the whole "aging" thing made me wonder what else was hidden in the fine print. (I'll be the first to admit it beats the hell out of the alternative, though. )

Enjoy the 4553TSW. Good self-shucker. Hogue grips might help improve it a bit if your hands are as large as your height/weight might indicate. I never cared for the DAO models as much as the traditional DA models, myself, but they're pretty good when you start to compare them to other metal-framed DAO pistols.

Best regards.
fb
Information needed already. My 4553tsw came with 7 round mags that stick out of the grips when installed. Am I correct in that #107950 curved butt plates would cure this, also which hogue grips do you recomend for large hands.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:59 PM
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My supplements are Angus ribeye, six eggs and a bunch of bacon for morning starters,and a gallon of ice cream a week. 6'5" 338lbs and shoot iron sights.
That and hamburgers are all what got my cholesterol out the ceiling(over 275) and triglycerides over 580. As a result of years of body abuse with doughnuts, hotdogs, red meat, etc., I now am on two cholesterol meds, had bypass surgery on my left leg due to a clogged artery and on an aspirin, Plavix and Warfarin regiment. Diagnosed with PAD(Peripheral Artery Disease) with intermittent claudication and atherosclerosis I watch my diet. Wish I could eat like that and still be healthy but, no dice.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:07 PM
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I just got back one of my 4003TSWs from Jim Rae and his Team at the Performance Center. For $148 they did the following:

--Took off the TSW Rail
--Refinished the lower half
--Replaced the drawbar (paucity of parts???)
--Replaced the plastic disconnector with a STEEL one
--Replaced ALL of the springs
--Bead Balsted and re-marked the slide with a smaller, less garish TSW logo
--Replaced the grips
--Replaced the spurred hammer with my supplied bobbed hammer

I will send my other 4003TSW to them for a complete re-finish. These guns were bought from Robertson's Trading Post and were Westfield, MASS PD guns dating from 2001. They were NASTY! The one (w/o the rail) is for all intents and purposes NEW.

The dedicated rail gun that will go out next week was modified (by opening the aperature of the TSW rail) to accept the X300 (with backplate filler taken off). It too when completed, will be for all intents and purposes NEW.

To say I am pleased is a gross understatement! Jim Rae is to be commended for his work on my pistol.

In the interim, I sent my wife's 3914 off to him so he can modify the safety levers to de-cock only. He has been VERY forgiving and is never too busy to answer questions.

As for the springs, I replaced the firing pin springs in all of my 3rd Gen pistols with Wolff Extra Power firing pin springs. They said it would take up to a month to receive them. I had them within a week.

I always save my parts, in case I had to re-build or otherwise replace parts.

I love the reducncy and inherent strength of the 3rd Gens. 18DAI thanks for listening to my rants. I'll let you know how both of the .40s turn out.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bpatza View Post
Information needed already. My 4553tsw came with 7 round mags that stick out of the grips when installed. Am I correct in that #107950 curved butt plates would cure this, also which hogue grips do you recomend for large hands.
You might have an "original" 4553TSW, with the cutaway grip, which uses 6-rd magazines.

Here's an original 4513TSW alongside a newer 4513TSW (which uses the 7-rd mags). The older style with the cutaway grip is on top.


If you have an older style TSW, you need the 6-rd mags for a flush fit. The 7-rd mags will work fine, but will stick down a little, regardless of what butt plate you use.

The bad news, though ...

Hogue doesn't make grips for the older style 4513TSW@. I had to modify standard grip stocks to make them fit my original 4513TSW. Sort of a pain ...




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Old 04-07-2012, 08:04 PM
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I sympathize ColColt. After my cancer surgery I made some modifications to my diet, too.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:52 PM
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You might have an "original" 4553TSW, with the cutaway grip, which uses 6-rd magazines.

Here's an original 4513TSW alongside a newer 4513TSW (which uses the 7-rd mags). The older style with the cutaway grip is on top.


If you have an older style TSW, you need the 6-rd mags for a flush fit. The 7-rd mags will work fine, but will stick down a little, regardless of what butt plate you use.

The bad news, though ...

Hogue doesn't make grips for the older style 4513TSW@. I had to modify standard grip stocks to make them fit my original 4513TSW. Sort of a pain ...




I have the newer style grip frame not the one with the cutout. So it looks like hogue grips for the 4513 will work and the curved 107950 to replace the streight, thin butt plate willcover the mag metal. How am I doing.
By the way I may be as unhealthy as I can be and still be alive I just don't go to a doctor and I eat and live as I enjoy life and will until the end. As I said to friends last night " I
may not see the sun rise however I enjoyed watching it set"
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:01 PM
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Yep, 3rd Generations are obsolete and terrible guns. I will however, as a service to the environment, buy all of the good 3rd Gens you want to get rid of for $100 a gun and hope to come out on the salvage...strictly as a Service to Mankind of course.

I will also pledge not to buy anymore plastic pistols to support this charitable endeavor of mine.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:07 PM
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I sympathize ColColt. After my cancer surgery I made some modifications to my diet, too.
I remember. I try not to think on things like this but it's hard.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:44 PM
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I just got back one of my 4003TSWs from Jim Rae and his Team at the Performance Center. For $148 they did the following:

--Took off the TSW Rail
--Refinished the lower half
--Replaced the drawbar (paucity of parts???)
--Replaced the plastic disconnector with a STEEL one
--Replaced ALL of the springs
--Bead Balsted and re-marked the slide with a smaller, less garish TSW logo
--Replaced the grips
--Replaced the spurred hammer with my supplied bobbed hammer

I will send my other 4003TSW to them for a complete re-finish. These guns were bought from Robertson's Trading Post and were Westfield, MASS PD guns dating from 2001. They were NASTY! The one (w/o the rail) is for all intents and purposes NEW.

The dedicated rail gun that will go out next week was modified (by opening the aperature of the TSW rail) to accept the X300 (with backplate filler taken off). It too when completed, will be for all intents and purposes NEW.

To say I am pleased is a gross understatement! Jim Rae is to be commended for his work on my pistol.

In the interim, I sent my wife's 3914 off to him so he can modify the safety levers to de-cock only. He has been VERY forgiving and is never too busy to answer questions.

As for the springs, I replaced the firing pin springs in all of my 3rd Gen pistols with Wolff Extra Power firing pin springs. They said it would take up to a month to receive them. I had them within a week.

I always save my parts, in case I had to re-build or otherwise replace parts.

I love the reducncy and inherent strength of the 3rd Gens. 18DAI thanks for listening to my rants. I'll let you know how both of the .40s turn out.
How much did they charge to re bead blast it?
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:30 PM
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I have the newer style grip frame not the one with the cutout. So it looks like hogue grips for the 4513 will work and the curved 107950 to replace the streight, thin butt plate willcover the mag metal.
The Hogues for the 4516 will work on the current production 4513/4553TSW's that use 7-rd mags.

The curved butt plate will still extend below the bottom of the frame, just like the bottom gun in the picture of the pair I posted.

If someone installed the thin butt plate (like that used on the 8-rd mags for the 4506/4566) it would look a bit weird.
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
The Hogues for the 4516 will work on the current production 4513/4553TSW's that use 7-rd mags.

The curved butt plate will still extend below the bottom of the frame, just like the bottom gun in the picture of the pair I posted.

If someone installed the thin butt plate (like that used on the 8-rd mags for the 4506/4566) it would look a bit weird).
It does look weird thats why I would like to have them look like the bottem one.
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Old 04-08-2012, 04:21 AM
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It does look weird thats why I would like to have them look like the bottem one.
Well, the curved butt plate is the standard one used on the compact .45's.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtoppcop View Post
I just got back one of my 4003TSWs from Jim Rae and his Team at the Performance Center. For $148 they did the following:

--Took off the TSW Rail
--Refinished the lower half
--Replaced the drawbar (paucity of parts???)
--Replaced the plastic disconnector with a STEEL one
--Replaced ALL of the springs
--Bead Balsted and re-marked the slide with a smaller, less garish TSW logo
--Replaced the grips
--Replaced the spurred hammer with my supplied bobbed hammer

I will send my other 4003TSW to them for a complete re-finish. These guns were bought from Robertson's Trading Post and were Westfield, MASS PD guns dating from 2001. They were NASTY! The one (w/o the rail) is for all intents and purposes NEW.

The dedicated rail gun that will go out next week was modified (by opening the aperature of the TSW rail) to accept the X300 (with backplate filler taken off). It too when completed, will be for all intents and purposes NEW.

To say I am pleased is a gross understatement! Jim Rae is to be commended for his work on my pistol.

In the interim, I sent my wife's 3914 off to him so he can modify the safety levers to de-cock only. He has been VERY forgiving and is never too busy to answer questions.

As for the springs, I replaced the firing pin springs in all of my 3rd Gen pistols with Wolff Extra Power firing pin springs. They said it would take up to a month to receive them. I had them within a week.

I always save my parts, in case I had to re-build or otherwise replace parts.

I love the reducncy and inherent strength of the 3rd Gens. 18DAI thanks for listening to my rants. I'll let you know how both of the .40s turn out.
Could you please post a link to his website and maybe some pics?

Regards
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Old 04-08-2012, 12:46 PM
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Craig 19 and Mike 4,

It cost me $148 (shipping included) for everything. They got it back to me in 3-weeks.

My other 4003TSW is on its way back for it to be re-finished. I'll be sure to post pics when I get them back.

-Greg
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:56 AM
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Well if I'm Joe Six Pack looking for a new 3rd Generation Smith and Wesson pistol, the first place I'm going to look is on their web site.

I clock on "Pistols" and view the 75 models shown.

Zero - zilch - nada.

Maybe they're in "Championship and Pro"?

7 Models and I got bumpkis.

I know, "Performance Center" ...

Uh, nothing for 26.

If they are available to the general public, one has to be on the inside track to get one. Sorry fellas, the all steel pistol from Smith and Wesson is a thing of the past.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:59 AM
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Yes, strangely enough they have now taken the 952 off the web site and only show it as an archived image:

Search Results - Smith & Wesson

Hopefully they will correct this soon.

If not, I will only be buying new guns from SIG and Beretta, and used 3rd gens from 3rd parties, GunBroker and the like. IT looks like S&W would want the revenue that runs of 3rd gens would generate.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:48 PM
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I just last month ordered a recoil and mag spring for my 4506 from MidwayUSA.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:52 PM
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Being from a third world country where gun importers and distributors never bother to offer any spares, I'm used to hunting down parts for my guns, old or new.

In Argentina, if you're into any kind of hobby that's not mainstream, you slowly get into the habit of stockpiling gear or supplies. This applies to almost anything outside of soccer.

Gun distributors don't offer any sort of customer support. They won't fix a broken handgun. The best you can hope for (assuming the chaps at the gun store back you up) is a refund.

Those who shoot a lot and are hard on their pistols (like IPSC shooters) are stuck with Glocks and 1911s. Browning HPs are also quite popular with shooters because there's a very good locally produced version (it was made under FN license for a long time) and since it was standard issue for the army and many police agencies, parts are easy to find.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:11 AM
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Being from a third world country where gun importers and distributors never bother to offer any spares, I'm used to hunting down parts for my guns, old or new.

In Argentina, if you're into any kind of hobby that's not mainstream, you slowly get into the habit of stockpiling gear or supplies. This applies to almost anything outside of soccer.

Gun distributors don't offer any sort of customer support. They won't fix a broken handgun. The best you can hope for (assuming the chaps at the gun store back you up) is a refund.

Those who shoot a lot and are hard on their pistols (like IPSC shooters) are stuck with Glocks and 1911s. Browning HPs are also quite popular with shooters because there's a very good locally produced version (it was made under FN license for a long time) and since it was standard issue for the army and many police agencies, parts are easy to find.
Good points,Franciscomv! We are very fortunate here in the US, most parts are plentiful for name brands at least but it would be smart to stock up on Gen 3 parts now while it's possible.

BTW, I have an FM Hi Power, one that was built while still under the FN license. Every bit as good as the FN and fortunately as you said is 100% compatible with standard Hi Power parts.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Franciscomv View Post
Being from a third world country where gun importers and distributors never bother to offer any spares, I'm used to hunting down parts for my guns, old or new.


Those who shoot a lot and are hard on their pistols (like IPSC shooters) are stuck with Glocks and 1911s. Browning HPs are also quite popular with shooters because there's a very good locally produced version (it was made under FN license for a long time) and since it was standard issue for the army and many police agencies, parts are easy to find.
What about HK pistols...are they hard to come by? Superb weapons.
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gtoppcop View Post
Craig 19 and Mike 4,

It cost me $148 (shipping included) for everything. They got it back to me in 3-weeks.

My other 4003TSW is on its way back for it to be re-finished. I'll be sure to post pics when I get them back.

-Greg
My 4553TSW is on it's way to be completely refurbished. I haven't UPSed a pistol for a number of years and after the lady told me UPS didn't want pistols in their system anyway she popped me $70 to ship it. Maybe I should have checked FEDEX. I don't know if they would be any more realistic or if it's one of those "because they can things"
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:05 PM
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Craig 19 and Mike 4,

It cost me $148 (shipping included) for everything. They got it back to me in 3-weeks.

My other 4003TSW is on its way back for it to be re-finished. I'll be sure to post pics when I get them back.

-Greg
Wow, that's pretty awesome. I may have to look into that for my 5906, its a little rough around the edges.
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:23 PM
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I just placed an order for recoil springs for my 6906 and 5906 and a +2 grip adaptor for the 6906. I also needed the grip pin, but they were out stock and also didn't have a recoil spring for the 4006. The guy I spoke to said they would be back in stock in a couple weeks. It sounds like they are still supporting these pistols, at least.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:36 AM
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Heaven knows how many 3 gen pistols are out there. Many of them are still in service, even if they are no longer a common LE gun. People who have them will try to keep them running and will pretty quickly soak up replacement parts. Springs will probably be available from Wolff for some time, but I suspect the supply of other replacement parts is limited to what now exists. Parts that are common to several models will be the easiest to find. The stuff that's specific to one caliber or model will be the first to go. The first auto I truly lusted after was a 39-2 in 1964, when I was 15. I can probably keep what I have running for the period of time that I'm likely to interested, but their days are numbered.

I, and many others, have gone through this process with Colt DA revolvers. Smith and Wesson has at least not just walked away from their customers. They have a few LE users they will support as best they can, but in a few years, parts and service will be hard to come by.

I love them, but these guns are now part of the past, not the future.
Then you buy two of every one you like and you have your spare parts.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:35 AM
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Then you buy two of every one you like and you have your spare parts.
Always the way to go, if for no other reason than if you like it, they will probably stop making it!

Over the years, I've picked up a 3913, 3913NL, 3953, 3954, 6946, CS9, 4013TSW, and a 457.

The only 3rd Gen I've ever gotten rid of was the CS9. I have large hands and I just could not hold on to it. I traded it for the 4013 TSW, which was a mistake.

If it comes down to it, I can "Rob Peter to pay Paul", and keep something running. But I don't think that will be neccessary; the parts that you are most likely to need are going to be available for years, just not forever.
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:23 PM
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There's another way to look at this subject, too.

S&W has been busy shifting money toward a lot of new projects, which has let their retail/repair inventory of 3rd gen parts diminish. However, it's not like they're having to work on these guns all the time.

One of the problems of trying to get new 3rd gen armorers enough practice after they come back from an armorer class is trying to come up with enough guns for them to work on so their skills and knowledge don't fade. They usually seem to run a long time without requiring the attention of an armorer, gunsmith or factory tech. Ditto not needing a lot of repair parts.

When I was a junior armorer I remember coming back from my first class with a list of all the parts I thought we ought to order, and the head armorer just chuckling and saying we needed to spend our money on other things, like ammo. We had a very meager supply of "repair parts", and we had a few hundred guns in service and reserve.

Then, as time passed, we just didn't have that many guns that required repair. It was infrequent enough that we had to "share" the repair of one of the older guns, with the available armorers gathering around an armorer replacing/fitting a part on the odd gun that actually came across the bench. I know armorers that had to wait a few years before they were able to get a gun on which they could actually replace and fit an extractor or sear release lever.

A couple of us who were concerned about our skills disappearing would pull an occasional training gun to practice full disassembly/reassembly, etc. (Except for rear sights & extractors, as you don't want to be removing & replacing sights and extractor pins unless really required, to avoid needless slide wear and reduce the potential for damage.)

It took quite a few years before our minimal parts supply was reduced to the point we actually had to start ordering some (and then only a few now and again).

I have parts I've bought for my own supply over the years that I know I'll probably never need to use (for either my 3rd gen guns or those of friends, for whom I provide armorer inspection, support and maintenance every now and again).

Maybe the company is just spending their money where they feel it's needed for that last several years, and only replenishing their repair parts supply as needed? I could see them getting out of the retail parts business for 3rd gen guns, especially if they haven't been getting a constant stream of orders for them. They'll probably just place orders to their parts vendors as needed, keeping a minimal investment available for in-house repair (for their lifetime warranty support) ... and maybe some for occasional sales to outside companies who sell their parts.

This thread (and a couple of guns that required new parts which I didn't have) reminds me ... I need to make a Glock parts order. My supply of those parts has run low, and I've been needing more Glock parts for guns. I've been having to either call for warranty replacement parts or buy them from an outside company. I've needed more Glock parts for repair recently than 3rd gen parts.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:29 PM
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That's a very interesting post you make Fastbolt. Thanks for that veiwpoint.


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Old 04-11-2012, 05:31 PM
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De nada.

The reasons I started getting a lot of bench time was that our guns were reaching the point where they'd been in-service for 15-20 years, so normal wear & tear (and user abuse/neglect) were starting to take their toll ... and I made sure I was always available for anything that needed to be done, even if it was just an inspection/detailed cleaning. Not all folks assigned armorer responsibilities are necessarily enthusiastic about doing armorer chores, you know.

Most of the reported "gun problems" that were brought to my attention more often than not turned out to be caused by improper cleaning/lubrication or "shooter" issues.

I've done far more detailed disassemblies to identify & resolve neglect (dirty guns) and improper cleaning (usually excessive lubrication that accumulated and caused functioning issues at some point).

If you speak with factory techs, gunsmiths and armorers, when it comes to semiautomatic pistols, day in & day out, upwards of 95% of "gun problems" usually seem to be caused by the shooter, in some manner or other. (Meaning manipulation or grip technique issues that created stoppages or other malfunctions, or poor user cleaning & lubrication practices.) The remaining 5% is split between ammunition and actual gun problems, with ammo problems often being more likely to be involved. Gun problems requiring repair or correction might come along maybe 2-3% of the time. Maybe.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:42 PM
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Fb-You mentioned not fooling with the extractor taking it out. What if you need an extractor itself, or the spring-send it to S&W? I guess that's not something the backyard gunsmith can do easily. I've ordered a parts kit from Wolff that does include the extractor spring along with a host of others like the ejector spring. That I think I could handle.
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:07 PM
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Fitting a new extractor typically involves filing & fitting it to a particular slide. Fitting it requires the use of a factory GO/NO-GO bar gauge. ($70 tool)

The extractor spring tension is checked using a force dial gauge, which checks tension at the onset of extractor deflection. ($150 tool) The factory has an assortment of different strength extractor springs available, so a tech/gunsmith/armorer can use whichever spring provides the desired tension in any particular gun. I'd use factory extractor springs, myself.

Unless you're a gunsmith or factory trained armorer, I'd have the factory, or one of their authorized warranty centers, do the work if that sort of repair is ever necessary.

The little springs that fit in the frame under the ejector (left side) and the sear release lever & firing pin safety lever (right side) hardly ever require replacement because they've worn out ... (I've never had one wear out) ... but usually because they were lost during disassembly.

The plunger springs in the slide, under the rear sight, can require replacement when someone removes & re-installs the rear sight base, and the top coil(s) gets bent/clipped by the leading edge of the sight base during reassembly.

I've never had a factory drawbar plunger spring wear out, either, but I've had a reduced power spring wear out and allow Skips-DA to occur.

I've sometimes (not often) come across a weakening firing pin spring.

Never wore out a factory main (hammer) spring.

A mag catch spring can get corroded or rusty if the gun is subjected to the wrong conditions without occasional inspection/service.

The trigger play spring might wear and break at some point, but the gun runs without it (just has some additional slop in the SA trigger). Folks trying to "adjust" it all the time cane break it, though.

The manual safety body plunger & ambi lever plunger springs can become lost during a detailed diassembly (or worse, mixed up, which can cause functioning problems). Never wore any out, but I've lost an occasional ambi lever spring.

Now, mag & recoil springs? I'd keep enough each of the factory springs for periodic replacement/repair.
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