3rd Gen Obsolete?

ColColt · #**101** 04-11-2012, 08:46 PM

Can the mag release spring be replaced without a great deal of disassembly? I don't think I'll get into trying to replace the extractor spring.

gtoppcop · #**102** 04-11-2012, 08:50 PM

Just like Col Colt says, this has been a very good post to read and in my case re-read.

I've had good luck with three parts outlets:

--Numrich (Gun Parts Corp)
--Midway USA (under S&W Auto Pistols [parts that fit multiple models])
--Brownells

I just picked up a 1989-vintage 5906 (old cop's gun) with the square trigger guard and Adjustable sights. I looked in MidwayUSA's website and found many parts were on the shelf.

When I took it apart, I noticed that the recoil spring guide's spring-loaded head is able to turn. Looks like I'll buy the $22 part at MidwayUSA.

The parts are out there. Remember too that a good portion of the common parts for the 5906 (most produced 3rd Gen?) will go onto a 4000/3900/4500/6900-series.

I appreciate the long replies by the Armorers. I have detail-stripped my 4566/4003 to clean them in a hot bath of water and Dial anti-bacterial soap (it does work!). I got them back together without any trouble.

Trouble shooting and diagnosing their issues is something entirely different. I defer the 'hard' stuff to my S&W trained SoCal gunsmith (b. burris handle on the Forum).

One thing that I have learned over the years is to use the Bic pens (with the removable top) to test the firing pin and/or ensuring that the decocker/safety works (the pen flies out of the barrel under FIRE and doesn't move under SAFE/hammer drop).

I must confess that my 4003TSW's (#1 of 2) recent trip to S&W was a wonderful experience. In fact, I have sent the other 4003TSW and 'Mama Bear's' 3914 to them. The 5906 (after she's de-loused and de-horned) will go back to Springfield for her 100K mile rebuild. Now if I could just find another Ed Brown competition safety for the 9mm/40-series guns!

If you want a 5906 (the Volvo 240 of 9mms), go to Buds, Robertsons Trading Post and/or CDNN. They're going for $300-350 depending on shape. GREAT gun!!!

Just my $.02

Fastbolt · #**103** 04-11-2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColColt

Can the mag release spring be replaced without a great deal of disassembly? I don't think I'll get into trying to replace the extractor spring.

Yes. The nut & spring.

Ideally, it involves removing the grips if the mag catch body is being removed (and so the frame can be flat against a hard work surface, to keep the right end of the mag catch body flat while the nut is being installed and adjusted for depth).

However, I've found that with a 3rd gen with factory grips, if you're only replacing the nut and/or spring, putting the gun on its right side and placing a nickel underneath the right end of the mag catch (as a 'spacer' beneath the mag catch) will let you depress the plunger and unscrew the nut (button) ... and then replace them with one or both new ones.

ColColt · #**104** 04-11-2012, 09:42 PM

Very good-thanks. I don't know if it will help or not but my 4516-1 seems to be a little reluctant to receive mags fully and you have to rap the bottom to get it to click and stay put. Not knowing the age of this pistol and after encountering that problem I first thought of the spring and since I have one thought of just replacing it. Maybe as 18DAI mentioned, it may be the nature of the compacts. Not having a compact before I don't know. The 4506 mag will fit nicely and click but of course is about 3/4" too long.

Franciscomv · #**105** 04-11-2012, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quentin

BTW, I have an FM Hi Power, one that was built while still under the FN license. Every bit as good as the FN and fortunately as you said is 100% compatible with standard Hi Power parts.

FM made some pretty good guns back in the day. Both HPs and 1911s. Current production pistols aren't very nicely finished, but they work well and are quite affordable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColColt

What about HK pistols...are they hard to come by? Superb weapons.

German gun companies don't sell weapons to Argentina, I'm not sure why but I think it has to do with some sort of government policy (we're probably considered an unstable country).

Any SIGs or Walthers we get come from the US. The last HK shipment we got was back in the '90s, they're very sought after and fetch premium prices.

Fastbolt · #**106** 04-11-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColColt

Very good-thanks. I don't know if it will help or not but my 4516-1 seems to be a little reluctant to receive mags fully and you have to rap the bottom to get it to click and stay put. Not knowing the age of this pistol and after encountering that problem I first thought of the spring and since I have one thought of just replacing it. Maybe as 18DAI mentioned, it may be the nature of the compacts. Not having a compact before I don't know. The 4506 mag will fit nicely and click but of course is about 3/4" too long.

Both of my 4513TSW's (original and a new production issued model) require the magazines receiving a firm whack in order to properly seat them. Ditto my 3913, CS9, CS45, 4013TSW and a number of my other makes of pistols. Once they become too easy to insert (with the slide forward) I'd start to wonder whether the mag springs weren't approaching the far end of their useful service life.

ColColt · #**107** 04-12-2012, 05:04 PM

The mags I have won't seat with the slide open and mags empty without a whack. That just doesn't seem quite right to me. It's like the height of the plastic base plates are too high and should be shortened about 1/16" or thereabout so the mag will go further up and latch.

Catshooter · #**108** 04-12-2012, 07:04 PM

FB, I have seen the same thing with dirty weapons. It boggles my tiny little mind that it can happen, but it sure does.

I agree Col, that doesn't sound right. A full mag against a closed slide should give some good resistence.

Take the slide off and see if that changes how the mags feel during seating.

Cat

ColColt · #**109** 04-12-2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Take the slide off and see if that changes how the mags feel during seating.

Made a big difference-it snapped right in and you could hear it click?

Fastbolt · #**110** 04-12-2012, 08:24 PM

Sometimes the ejector lands on the left side of a magazine in such a way that it gives some pressure. (Check the ejector for a normal appearance, meaning not bent or broken, as well as normal movement.)

I'll sometimes have an occasional magazine not quick "click" into the mag well under a locked back slide (meaning no slide resistance) without a little extra pressure. There's a bit of a potential tolerance stack condition that can occur when you consider the interaction of the involved parts ... mag body, mag butt plate, window cutout in mag, mag catch body, frame cut for mag catch body. Especially when you consider the plastic butt plate and how its grooves may slip onto any particular mag body lips.

When I load a magazine I make sure I either press it up into place (when the slide is locked back), or I give a more solid push/whack (slide locked forward). I wouldn't get too "aggressive" and try to forcefully shove the mag up through the grip frame and out the ejection port when the slide is locked back, though, as its possible to exert excessive pressure up against the bottom of the ejector. I watched one guy eventually break off his ejector doing that one day.

ColColt · #**111** 04-12-2012, 10:59 PM

The ejector looks fine-just like the one in my 4506. That one doesn't behave the way this one does in that you will hear a distinct click with the slide closed when inserting the mag and no need to whack the bottom of the mag.

It was very easy to insert the mag with the slide retracted and you could hear/feel the click...not so with the slide forward. I have four mags with the 4516-1 and they all do that.

ColColt · #**112** 04-13-2012, 01:28 PM

Just a little update. I took the 4516-1 out for a first time range visit today and it was as expected. I went though some WWB, GDGHP's(some factory, some my reloads of 7.8 gr of HS-6) and nary a bobble with three mags. I had to take the 4506 as well to keep it company and shot about an equal amount through it. As usual, no problems with it either.

However, I had loaded about 50 lead round nose bullets that have an ogive pretty much like standard hard ball and the same amount of the H&G #68 and it seems the 4516-1 didn't like them at all. After about 2-3 shots I had a FTRTB. I retrieved the round from the chamber and put it in my pocket after looking it over. I experienced the same thing when I put the mag back in and racked the slide. Both times the slide liked about 1/4" going into battery. This also happened with the SWC's. I was a bit baffled. Upon returning home I measured the OAL of both rounds and they always fed in other pistols. Two of the rounds I had in my pocket were 1.255". WWB usually goes about 1.260-1.265" so that didn't make sense. The two that gave a problem(and there were a few others) wouldn't go into the chamber after I took the slide and barrel off. I dropped them into the chamber and they didn't go without just a little push. I checked out each round before today with my case gauge just to be sure if any problem arouse I could eliminate ammo. Something went awry somewhere as if it fit the case gauge, it should have fit the chamber.

At any rate, I'm still chewing on this. I stopped trying to shoot the lead bullets and went back to WWB and shot five more mags with no problems.It's hard to believe it handled the GDHP and some HST's without a problem yet something didn't quite work out with the lead bullets.

Fastbolt · #**113** 04-13-2012, 01:36 PM

Sounds like an issue with the sizing of the lead reloads. Wouldn't be the first time a "generous" case gauge disagreed with a barrel chamber that might be on the "tighter" end of the normal tolerance spec.

How old is the brass?

ColColt · #**114** 04-13-2012, 02:23 PM

The case gauge gave all the go ahead and that's why I was surprised things didn't go so well. I have the bullets sized to .452"-same as for the other 45's. the brass was mixed...some new Starline and some twice fired.

Fastbolt · #**115** 04-13-2012, 02:29 PM

If the rounds aren't going into the barrel chamber without resistance, just under the force of gravity (with barrel removed from slide), it would seem likely that either some of the rounds weren't sized as well as the "gauge" might think, or else you've got something stuck to the chamber wall?

Also, in an occasional older 3rd gen we used to take a "finishing" chamber reamer to lightly clean up any high spots in the chamber. This sometimes revealed high spots, too. We cleaned up a few "tight" chambers that way. Obviously, this isn't something that someone ought to attempt without some understanding of how to properly do it so damage isn't done to the chamber shoulders & barrel leade. Barrels aren't inexpensive.

ColColt · #**116** 04-13-2012, 02:37 PM

I think the gauge lied to me.

I distinctly remember a couple nights back taking each of the rounds and dropping them into the gauge and all but a couple dropped flush. the other two I sit aside and they didn't go today. Maybe seating the bullet about .005 deeper might help.

ColColt · #**117** 04-13-2012, 02:50 PM

I just checked the diameter of the case mouth on a factory round at 1.272". My reloads were 1.275". Don't know if that would matter that much.

Fastbolt · #**118** 04-13-2012, 02:59 PM

Got a local gunsmith who might take a couple of minutes to set up and turn a finishing chamber reamer in your barrel?

ColColt · #**119** 04-13-2012, 03:01 PM

I don't know of any I trust around here. Been that route not long ago with a GP100.

Catshooter · #**120** 04-13-2012, 05:03 PM

Col,

Your problem is well known to those of us who reload SWC bullets in the 45 auto.

Most 45 chambers (and the Smith's are no exception) have a throat so short it might as well not exist. What that means is that if there is much more than about .020 of bullet that is bore size or bigger that protrudes from the case mouth at all it will hit the rifling.

I shoot alot of Keith's bullets in my 45s and I have to be careful with all of them on how far out the front driving band sits from the case mouth. I stick to .020 as a max and that length is trouble free in all my 45s.

Fastbolt is right (of course) that gravity is all that should be needed to get a round fully chambered in a barrel. Anything else is asking for trouble.

Hope this helps.

Cat

ColColt · #**121** 04-13-2012, 06:58 PM

I guess what puzzles me is there were all a great fit in the case gauge. I don't use a case gauge often but when testing a new pistol, I want to make sure it's the ammo and not some other condition that could cause trouble so for the most part I'll use new brass to eliminate any possible nicks that may be on the rim or web that could give the extractor a hard time. Maybe I should use the barrel for a gauge instead.

I figured since I set the OAL of those LRN bullets to about the same length as the factory hard ball, all should be well. Apparently not despite the gauge taking the finished round flush.

Fastbolt · #**122** 04-13-2012, 07:12 PM

I remember one time when the former (ret) head armorer was cleaning up one of my .45 barrels (3rd gen). He was teaching me how to use the finishing reamer. He pointed out a tight/high spot that the reamer had reached and cleaned up in the barrel throat (leade).

He discussed how it could have adversely affected inherent accuracy, theoretically, but I could see how it might also have been a problem if I'd been shooting RNL with a slightly fatter (or variable) profile than typical, just up from the case mouth. Dunno.

Sometimes using RNL/SWC bullets can introduce the chance for some "less-than-precise" (or maybe less than consistent?) bullet profiles & ogives, right?

I remember the days of using a specific Commander barrel as my "case gauge" for checking my reloading.

ColColt · #**123** 04-13-2012, 08:08 PM

Actually I seat the bullet to the length of 1.255" which puts it right about at the top of the band marked as .422" in the right sketch. This is the bullet from the custom mold I make the bullets from. So, That shouldn't be a factor in that it's smaller than barrel diameter.

I noticed in checking right at the mouth of the case with a loaded rounds I brought home, the diameter ranged from .472-.475". I don't know why the variance since they all go through the same taper crimp die. I'm going to "tighten up" to about .468".

Accurate Molds: Custom Bullet Molds

thomast · #**124** 04-13-2012, 09:06 PM

Thanks so much for the great info in your posts. Now i don't think i need to worry about buying parts.

I think that people need to worry that no one will remember how to service these fine pistols in the future

....

PS. Do the ejector, sear lever, and firing pin lever really need to be fit or do they drop in if replaced?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

Fitting a new extractor typically involves filing & fitting it to a particular slide. Fitting it requires the use of a factory GO/NO-GO bar gauge. ($70 tool)

The extractor spring tension is checked using a force dial gauge, which checks tension at the onset of extractor deflection. ($150 tool) The factory has an assortment of different strength extractor springs available, so a tech/gunsmith/armorer can use whichever spring provides the desired tension in any particular gun. I'd use factory extractor springs, myself.

Unless you're a gunsmith or factory trained armorer, I'd have the factory, or one of their authorized warranty centers, do the work if that sort of repair is ever necessary.

The little springs that fit in the frame under the ejector (left side) and the sear release lever & firing pin safety lever (right side) hardly ever require replacement because they've worn out ... (I've never had one wear out) ... but usually because they were lost during disassembly.

The plunger springs in the slide, under the rear sight, can require replacement when someone removes & re-installs the rear sight base, and the top coil(s) gets bent/clipped by the leading edge of the sight base during reassembly.

I've never had a factory drawbar plunger spring wear out, either, but I've had a reduced power spring wear out and allow Skips-DA to occur.

I've sometimes (not often) come across a weakening firing pin spring.

Never wore out a factory main (hammer) spring.

A mag catch spring can get corroded or rusty if the gun is subjected to the wrong conditions without occasional inspection/service.

The trigger play spring might wear and break at some point, but the gun runs without it (just has some additional slop in the SA trigger). Folks trying to "adjust" it all the time cane break it, though.

The manual safety body plunger & ambi lever plunger springs can become lost during a detailed diassembly (or worse, mixed up, which can cause functioning problems). Never wore any out, but I've lost an occasional ambi lever spring.

Now, mag & recoil springs? I'd keep enough each of the factory springs for periodic replacement/repair.

ColColt · #**125** 04-13-2012, 09:32 PM

Fastbolt is the man to answer this but the only thing I know of that required a factory fix is the extractor due to the staked in pin and special equipment for measuring tension we don't have nor do we know exactly which spring to use.

thomast · #**126** 04-14-2012, 05:21 PM

I asked fast bolt a bunch of questions. I think he got tired of me

BTW for those that don't know some Numrich parts are used and no good at all. I bought a side plate assembly recently that has certainly been used before and the pin on the assembly is very loose.....

The way i see it is that most parts wont break on these pistols that are not heavily used. No need to stock up on parts since it's impossible to tell what may give out.

Catshooter · #**127** 04-14-2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomast

No need to stock up on parts since it's impossible to tell what may give out.

My answer to that is just to stock them all!

Cat

Pointblank2U · #**128** 04-14-2012, 06:06 PM

That's why I buy S&W revolvers, preferably older ones and Glock semi-autos. The magazines of today fit the original models.

Poohgyrr · #**129** 05-16-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

The GUNS are not obsolete. No comment on those of us using them.

I've had some folks give me looks suggesting both are obsolete.

And while it's a good thing when any good people outshoot me, the nay-sayers dislike admitting how well my 5906's perform. That speaks for itself...

dsk · #**130** 05-17-2012, 01:31 AM

I've tried stocking repair parts for the guns I own that are no longer made. So far the only parts that have needed replacing were the ones I didn't get spares for! I usually end up on a long and frutrating search on eBay and Gunbroker for the parts I need. If you're like me you can't win no matter what you do, so I vote to just relax and go shooting, and if something ever happens to break deal with it then. The only exception I'd make to that rule is if a firearm is used regularly for competition or for self defense, in which case an actual backup pistol or rifle is still probably the better plan anyway.

Tim Nagel · #**131** 05-17-2012, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 18DAI

The GUNS are not obsolete. No comment on those of us using them.

I agree 100% my 4506 will still be shooting long after I'm gone!

BigDaddy7972 · #**132** 05-17-2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlk18

I know S&W has made several interesting 3rd Gens for the NYPD in recent year, presumably for off duty use. They seem to have the only supply of the 3914DAO and the 3914TSW. And to confirm what ladder13 said, I have seen a few police-trade-in Kahr K9's on the market recently. I was wondering where they were coming from.

I'm still looking for a 3586 that Smith made for the NYPD. No luck so far.

paddlingman · #**133** 05-20-2012, 03:26 PM

This thread, like so many, has been an education. I've a handful of 3rd gen 45xx/CS45 and appreciate the effort of the experts like Fastbolt and 18DAI who add some much here.

Feel free to resume...

jhackl · #**134** 06-25-2012, 07:40 AM

Ditto what paddlingman says. This thread has encouraged me to hang on to my aluminum-framed 9's for parts if nothing else. I'm getting into the habit of saving just about everything fastbolt writes on my computer. It is unusual for professionals to invest so much time and effort in sharing their expertise with hobbyists and novices.

Oldnoob · #**135** 06-25-2012, 08:59 PM

I believe California Highway Patrol still issued 3rd gen 40s&w pistol.

kbr1 · #**136** 06-25-2012, 10:15 PM

Check out Numrick gun parts in New York,lots of magazine parts,The magazine spring # I believe is"552080" or maybe (352080)??? They appear to have plenty of mag parts for the 4506 family.

Checkman · #**137** 09-11-2012, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbr1

Check out Numrick gun parts in New York,lots of magazine parts,The magazine spring # I believe is"552080" or maybe (352080)??? They appear to have plenty of mag parts for the 4506 family.

I was just over on their site and discovered the same thing.

Fastbolt · #**138** 09-11-2012, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldnoob

I believe California Highway Patrol still issued 3rd gen 40s&w pistol.

They just updated their inventory to the newer 4006TSW's.

pblawler · #**139** 12-25-2013, 06:09 AM

Bedair Machine Works Stainless Steel Recoil Guide Rods

dkelly27 · #**140** 12-25-2013, 11:17 AM

I have a three gun stable of 3rd. Gens. Smiths. Maybe it's time to retire them and go to a different gun maker. I have been a loyal customer for over 25 years,but I can show as much loyalty to S&W as they show to the customer. Maybe its time to go to Kahr or Glock or Sig.

tom-tom · #**141** 12-25-2013, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkelly27

I have a three gun stable of 3rd. Gens. Smiths. Maybe it's time to retire them and go to a different gun maker. I have been a loyal customer for over 25 years,but I can show as much loyalty to S&W as they show to the customer. Maybe its time to go to Kahr or Glock or Sig.

I, too, have three 3rd gen Smiths, all 9mm and they're all in my carry rotation. The oldest gun is almost 20, the newest less than 10 years old. Frankly, I believe they'll retire me rather than the other way around. True, any tool can fail, but in quality tools, failure is rare. Will an S&W Bodyguard .380 or Ruger LCP go 20,000+ rounds? Somehow, I doubt it. Are they designed to last that long? Will a 6906 go 20,000+? Yes. Is it so designed?

To paraphrase Dasheill Hammett, most guns don't break; they get broken --- either through abuse or neglect. For example, I have a 40 year old Colt Combat Commander .45. I bought it used, but I've never replaced a part other than the recoil spring. It shoots as well as the day I bought it. I also have my grandfather's Woodsman. The gun was made in 1933 and as far as I know, it's never had a single piece replaced. It'll still pop a squirrel at 25 yards if I do my part.

Now, granted, there's a difference between a .22, a low pressure .45 and a high pressure 9mm. A well built pistol should be able to carry the load for decades and I've never heard anyone describe the third generation Smith & Wessons as anything less than well built.

dh2683 · #**142** 12-25-2013, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom-tom

I, too, have three 3rd gen Smiths, all 9mm and they're all in my carry rotation. The oldest gun is almost 20, the newest less than 10 years old. Frankly, I believe they'll retire me rather than the other way around. True, any tool can fail, but in quality tools, failure is rare. Will an S&W Bodyguard .380 or Ruger LCP go 20,000+ rounds? Somehow, I doubt it. Are they designed to last that long? Will a 6906 go 20,000+? Yes. Is it so designed?

To paraphrase Dasheill Hammett, most guns don't break; they get broken --- either through abuse or neglect. For example, I have a 40 year old Colt Combat Commander .45. I bought it used, but I've never replaced a part other than the recoil spring. It shoots as well as the day I bought it. I also have my grandfather's Woodsman. The gun was made in 1933 and as far as I know, it's never had a single piece replaced. It'll still pop a squirrel at 25 yards if I do my part.

Now, granted, there's a difference between a .22, a low pressure .45 and a high pressure 9mm. A well built pistol should be able to carry the load for decades and I've never heard anyone describe the third generation Smith & Wessons as anything less than well built.

WELL SAID!!!

HCH · #**143** 12-25-2013, 01:24 PM

1) Where can I find a S&W pistol armor's manual?
2) All in favor of Fastbolt writing a comprehensive S&W pistolsmithing book, please raise your hand.

GaryS · #**144** 12-25-2013, 02:17 PM

I wonder if someone who was well versed in the 3rd generation guns got the appropriate level of FFL and set up shop could make a living just working on 3rd generation semi autos?

Then again, they don't seem to break if they are given some TLC and a couple of springs are changed now and again.

Probably a post retirement gig for a retired LE armorer, at best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HCH

1) Where can I find a S&W pistol armor's manual?
2) All in favor of Fastbolt writing a comprehensive S&W pistolsmithing book, please raise your hand.

pmosley · #**145** 12-25-2013, 05:32 PM

To paraphrase a Joe Walsh tune, 3rd gens are analog guns in a digital world, but I for one still have a plenty of coax left.

Badkarma 1 · #**146** 12-25-2013, 07:24 PM

And yet I take note that most of the digital devices have their share of woes. And yet analog devices which require a little care and oil, winding and attention, continue to work just fine.
Dale

cometpx4 · #**147** 12-25-2013, 08:01 PM

Yes-there is not a doubt they are obsolete. Smith has rendered them that way so they can focus all of their efforts on churning out there plastic profit pistol. This is not even a debate anymore. How do i know??
I had to pass a few months ago on a PC Shorty 9mm new in the box because there were no longer 10 round mags. I live in CT and because of a horrible, evil mass murderer , i had to get 10 round mags.
I called Smith and was told point blank, they don't have any, aren't making anymore, and are "phasing out the gen 3 guns and parts". Keep in mind that the Shorty 9 is a 6906 platform which is probably (along with the 3913 and 5906) the most produced semi auto in Smith's history and THEY are telling us to stop buying them and stop looking to them to keep them selling and running.
Yes-obsolete. If you accept my story as truth, how do you argue otherwise??
That being said-i have 2 HK USP 9mm Compacts that shoot as good as any Smith PC auto i ever had and i had them all (Shorty 40's, Shorty 45's, 5906 IDPA, CQB's,) 945, 845, and i am not exaggerating) . This being said, i will never argue that HK's are nicer guns all things considered.
Lastly, Smith is really missing the boat. They could at least pick one (the 3913 TSW) and continue to make it. Why not??

tom-tom · #**148** 12-25-2013, 09:44 PM

Obsolete? I guess I can also fall back on my English teacher training and insist on a definition of terms. I didn't look in a dictionary, but I think one would find "obsolete" defined as "no longer useful" or "out of fashion." A Shorty Forty may indeed be obsolete in the Land of Steady Habits if a person can't get a magazine - no longer useful. (I certainly wish S&W would offer full part support, but I also wish GM still made Oldsmobiles, Ford made Mercurys, and whoever is now Chrysler made Plymouths.) A 5906 may be obsolete if it's too heavy for a cop's belt or the powers that be get a sweetheart deal on a truckload of fantastic plastic - out of fashion. I live in Texas where there are plenty of mags and I'm not a cop. I can carry what I want pretty much where I want. My 6906, 908S, and CS9 aren't obsolete.

st regis · #**149** 12-26-2013, 11:21 AM

...I get a look once in a while , at a wreck, or in a restaurant, from someone who knows guns, when they look at my leather basket weave holster on my Sam Brown with brass buckle duty belt and see a 4566 in there...ready for action.....I replaced the mag springs with new ones and got a couple of new magazines to boot...my departments' issued Glock stays at home in the safe....