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Old 04-02-2012, 07:33 PM
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I tried to order some parts for my upcoming 4516-1 I just bought, mag springs, recoil springs, magazines, etc and was told the recoil spring was obsolete as were the mag springs...not good. Wolff can supply the recoil spring and I believe I have a dozen mag springs for the 4506 which will fit but the magazines I ordered were put on back order. He said he had over 100 people back ordered on the mags. I'm wondering if I made a mistake. I hope nothing breaks.

I realize they haven't made the 3rd gen pistols in some while but it hasn't been that long back I ordered mag and recoil springs from S&W along with a few extra mags for the 4506. Good thing I have a supply of recoil and mag springs for it as well as eight magazines.

I forgot to mention I was going to order the recoil springs from Wolff but there is a two week wait from the message after I started to check out. Apparently they've been inundated with orders.

Last edited by ColColt; 04-02-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:35 PM
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So much for the "life time warranty" huh? I don't get Smiths attitude toward these wonderful pistols! I guess they figure when they wear out you'll have to buy an M&P.
You might want to drop your local gunsmith a call and see if he knows anybody making the mag springs.
As for as the 3rd Gen being obsolete, that's like saying the P-51 Mustang (despite being a great platform for eight .50cal Brownings!) is out to pasture as a fighter! Either one will still make a bad guy wish he'd stayed home! Dale
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:51 PM
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I'm not too concerned about the mag springs as the 4506 springs will fit the 4516-1 mag and Wolff has those...it's just a matter of a long wait when you need them now. However, S&W told me today the recoil spring was defunct but, that again can be gotten at Wolff. What got me was the long back order on the magazines. He said some had been waiting for months and I had to get on the list.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:01 PM
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I've read during a search where someone was having trouble with the Wolff recoil spring being too short compared to the factory one. If that's the case, I'm wondering if you could cut the coils from a 4506 spring, the same amount of turns the 4516-1 has and use it instead...hmmmm maybe so. I know some who trim a GM 1911 recoil sporing to fit the Commander(23 1/2 coils I think) and it works fine.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:30 PM
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It's been awhile since I "popped the hood" on a 4516, but doesn't it use two springs?
And have you checked with Midway? Dale
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:41 PM
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Midway has the both recoil spings in stock
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:44 PM
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The -1 version uses one recoil spring.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:27 PM
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Heaven knows how many 3 gen pistols are out there. Many of them are still in service, even if they are no longer a common LE gun. People who have them will try to keep them running and will pretty quickly soak up replacement parts. Springs will probably be available from Wolff for some time, but I suspect the supply of other replacement parts is limited to what now exists. Parts that are common to several models will be the easiest to find. The stuff that's specific to one caliber or model will be the first to go. The first auto I truly lusted after was a 39-2 in 1964, when I was 15. I can probably keep what I have running for the period of time that I'm likely to interested, but their days are numbered.

I, and many others, have gone through this process with Colt DA revolvers. Smith and Wesson has at least not just walked away from their customers. They have a few LE users they will support as best they can, but in a few years, parts and service will be hard to come by.

I love them, but these guns are now part of the past, not the future.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColColt View Post

I realize they haven't made the 3rd gen pistols in some while but
S&W doesn't advertise the fact but, they are still making the 3rd generation guns for police departments that standardized on them. Their parts backorders are probably due to commitments to those departments.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas1941 View Post
...
I love them, but these guns are now part of the past, not the future.
A-Yup. For the most part the day of the all-metal auto has passed (1911 excluded). Polymer guns are lighter, work as well, are cheaper to make and have been in service for a quarter of a century.

Man am I going to get rained on for this!
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:29 AM
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This kind of issue is what makes me slow to warm up to the M&P.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:25 AM
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Blujax01 I hate it but I have to agree with you.I love the older guns the most.I have 3 M&Ps and like them.but when I think of S&W autos I see the old 1st 2nd and 3rd gen ones in my mind not the new ones. I have several of my favorites so atleast I can make one a rob bird if need be.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:07 AM
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Call Wolff gun springs Col. They can provide you with recoil springs for your 4516-1.

3rd generation pistols obsolete? Only to folks who didn't grow up in a gun culture, don't know what a good trigger feels like, think a 80 qual score is "really good shootin!" and are enamoured of tupperware guns.

Those of us who can shoot and carry guns for serious purpose, do not consider these guns to be "obsolete". Regards 18DAI
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:48 AM
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If metal pistols are obsolete, tell that to the US Military. Over a million M-9s in service all over the world, working just fine.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:04 AM
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Other vendors will make magazines if demand exists. MecGar already makes mags for the 59 and its descendants, including 17rd mags that work great.

Check ProMags offerings. They probably already offer mags for the third gen .45s. Their quality, at least on metal pistol mags, has become better in recent years.

Parts for Colt D frame revolvers can be had from Armscor. They bought the rights to make the things and still turn them out in the PI, albeit that even they admit that the end product isn't quite as good.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gboling View Post
S&W doesn't advertise the fact but, they are still making the 3rd generation guns for police departments that standardized on them. Their parts backorders are probably due to commitments to those departments.
West Virginia State Police just purchased a large quantity of 3rd generation S&W 4566's all metal pistols. I believe LAPD Officers can still special order 4506 and 4566 pistols. A department here in Ohio just purchased about 50 new 3rd generation pistols. I believe they were 4566's so S&W will make and maintain for Law Enforcement agencies. Just not for the general customer or shooter.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:53 AM
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Hi Tim Nagel,

any more details on those 4566's for the Ohio agency? Were they melonite like the WVSP guns? Regards 18DAI
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:29 PM
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The single recoil spring for the 4516's that use the single spring haven't been carried by S&W for some time. (I asked a few years ago.) Just the nested dual springs for the newer compacts.

I've been told S&W's been focusing a lot of their money on newer projects, new model lines, moving the TC manufacturing equipment to Springfield, etc so they haven't been replenishing the 3rd gen parts as they've been draining as they normally would. This might also have been complicated by the 3rd gen production & repair having been moved to Maine.

They've been restricting a number of parts to repair-only (guns returned to them), due to shrinking inventory, meaning they haven't been keeping enough parts on hand for retail sales (and sometimes even armorers have had a hard time getting certain parts). Hopefully, this condition will be resolved sometime in the near future.

FWIW, I haven't had any problem getting 3rd gen mag springs (mostly 9/.45) from S&W. The same mag spring is used in all the 3rd gen .45's, and there's still a bunch of them out there in use. The mags can get back-ordered, though. It's not been uncommon for me to experience variable waiting periods for 3rd gen mag orders, regardless of the type.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:39 PM
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I got back into S&W 3rd Generation pistols back in early 2007. It started with a gun trade with my brother. As part of the trade, I got "back" a 4566 that I had earlier owned. It rekindled my love for the pistols. The 4566 needed a couple of parts (my brother is hard on pistols), so I contacted S&W Customer Service to order some. While I was chatting with the S&W rep, it became clear that parts for some 3rd Gens were getting in short supply and S&W would not be making anymore.

So, as I started hunting down 3rd generation pistols, I also began acquiring extra parts for each one I would buy. From 2007 to 2010 I spent a lot of money on hundreds of parts for the twenty plus 3rd Gens I found and bought. It turned out to be a smart move on my part. Many of the parts presently in my large parts kit are no longer available from S&W, Midway, Brownell or Gun Parts, e.g., the recoil spring guide for the 4506 (also for the 1006), part number 103200000. In addition, based on a recent posting on this forum, it appears that the side plate for the 5906 (also used in the 5903 and 6906), part number 106780000, has also disappeared.

S&W is only making additional parts for those 3rd generation pistols it is still making (on a limited basis) for LE. I'm not sure, but would not be surprised if S&W is holding those parts back for the LE agencies customers. Eventually, many of the 3rd Generation parts are going to disappear as "obsolete" just like those for the 2nd Generation pistols did.

Here is a example of what's going on with this situation:
The single stack 2nd generation Model 645 uses side plate, part number 106990000. It appears that early 3rd generation large frame single stack pistols (4506, 4566, 1006, 1066, 4516) used this same side plate until the late 1990s. Sometime after 1997, part number 106990000 was replaced by side plate, part number 108600000. The only significant difference between the two side plates is that the area around where the hammer pin is attached was strengthened, resulting in a little "bump" that sticks out above the top of the grip when the pistol is assembled. The 3rd generation parts lists were updated indicating part number 10860000. However, the parts list for the 645 was not so updated.

Interestingly, side plate 108600000 has now apparently disappeared. If you think about it, there is no reason for S&W to manufacture parts for these large frame 3rd generation pistols since they have not manufactured them for many years. Yesterday, while checking on part number 108600000 at Brownell (they're out), I happen to note that they did have part number 106990000 in stock. Since I have 8 S&W large frame single stack pistols, I decided to order 4 of these to go with the couple of 108600000 that were already in my parts kit. Not surprisingly, Brownell e-mailed me that they were sending me only two; the other two were placed on "back order." I won't be holding my breath for those two to show up. I may have gotten the last two of these babies out there.
Good luck to all looking for 3rd generation parts, IMHO, you'll need it.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:05 PM
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Hmmm......

In eighteen years of carrying and shooting S&W 3rd generation pistols, the only part - besides recoil springs and mag springs - I've needed was a mag catch for a 4516-3.

And I wouldn't have needed that, were it not a MIM part that fractured like the cheap pot metal it was.

You folks either shoot ALOT more than I do......or you're beating on those pistols, to need so many parts.

Extra sideplates? Are getting the grips on and off causing that? Seriously, what parts are you seeing break? Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: Fastbolt, what parts does the armorers manual suggest you keep on hand? For how many pistols?

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Old 04-03-2012, 02:37 PM
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Anytime we buy out of production handguns , there is a chance that as time goes by the parts and service will be harder to get.

There are few exeptions:

Full size 1911 in 45acp. ( I don't need to explain why).
Browning Hi Power.
Medium frame , 38/357 S&W revolvers.
If You favor an older pistol ( like I favor 3913/3914 series) , it is a GOOD idea to have some magazines and some parts for it.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
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You folks either shoot ALOT more than I do......or you're beating on those pistols, to need so many parts.

Extra sideplates? Are getting the grips on and off causing that? Seriously, what parts are you seeing break? Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: Fastbolt, what parts does the armorers manual suggest you keep on hand? For how many pistols?
Hey, how 'ya doing?

You're right, unless you're supporting a few hundred 3rd gen guns, or do a LOT of shooting, you probably don't have to stockpile a lot of parts.

Going back to my first 3rd gen pistol class, they suggested that if a few hundred guns were being used (we were running 450+, as I recall), a reasonable number of spare parts might include:

(12) each of decocking system plungers & springs (mostly because they get lost at the bench during inspections )

(12) each trigger play springs & rivets (I'd double up on the rivets, myself)

Then, maybe a few extras each of ...

Ambi levers (lost ); extractors (incl springs & pins); mainsprings & caps; lever springs (which can REALLY get lost at bench ); ejectors; sear release levers; mag catch springs, nuts & plungers; sideplates; drawbar springs & plungers; mag safety plungers (nylon); plunger springs for the mag safety & firing pin safety (because they can easily get mangled or clipped during rear sight base installation by an inattentive armorer).

Some extra recoil & mag springs for an occasional damaged spring (and then periodic replacements of both, but that can run up in cost pretty quickly when you're talking about a lot of guns).

It took several years for us to eventually exhaust a relatively modest supply of our original spare/repair parts. (We're talking a frugal supply.)

While a couple or so older drawbars cracked (2-3?), or an odd sear release lever might wear down (again, 2-3 guns?), it wasn't until the guns had been in-service (and abused) for around 12-16+ years that we started to see several extractors & ejectors start to require replacement (chipped/broken extractors, weakened extractor springs & broken original-style ejector tips). I've not had a newer/revised style ejector yet break, myself.

One guy from the factory once said that a thumbnail guesstimate might be that extractors & their springs were probably good for at least 10K rounds or 10 years of service use (and abuse). My first chipped extractor in one of my issued guns occurred after I'd fired a little over 12K rounds through it, and I wasn't the first person to whom it had been issued.

Aside from a very few broken extractors that coincidentally were used by guys who couldn't understand that the ammo should be fed into the chamber from a magazine, not by hand, like I mentioned, we didn't see much in the way of extractors having to be replaced until the guns had been in-service for many years.

I've seen one bent (yep, bent) firing pin, a few shortened firing pin springs and a couple of peened firing pin safety plungers, a couple of mangled nylon ejector depressor (mag safety) plungers ... one of which was from a broken ejector not recognized by the private owner ... and a very few worn hammers & drawbars.

The steel mag butt catch plates might rarely have a post break off (I've seen ONE), and the plastic ones (assorted models and production periods) might get worn.

Followers can get worn. Mostly the .45 followers which have a thinner plastic wall/shelf under the slide stop lever's tab, and that little raised bump on the top (to help prevent the last round from being displaced under recoil).

The old-style guide rods need to be checked for the collar staking coming loose. Once the staking becomes loose and you can easily turn the collar within the rod body, it's time for a new rod. (If & when it becomes looser, the rod can separate from the collar.)

Ditto the side plate, in that if the staked pin becomes loose and it can be easily turned within the plate (removed from the frame), it's time for another plate.

I've seen more instances of sideplates being damaged from improper grip removal & installtion, though, or sideplate removal/installation, where the legs of the side plate (which snap over the left end/head of the sear pin) become tweaked, bent or broken. The sideplate legs are important to anchor the sideplate so the small front angled plate can properly engage the slide stop lever plunger. A loose sideplate can let the angle of the little plate shift under the slide stop lever plunger, and this can create functioning issues (like "early slide stop", or having the plunger slip off the plate, get trapped, etc).

The older style drawbars had some sharper angles which might eventually develop a stress riser (and crack). Even the odd (seldom) new one, however, might require some careful fitting (filing) of the radius under the drawbar head so it reaches around the trigger pin and gets its tail back far enough under the hammer notches. When I say seldom, I mean the filing is discussed ... but not practiced ... in the armorer class. I've only ever had to do it to ONE pistol (3913TSW), myself, and that's out of more than a thousand 3rd gen guns I've helped support (and none of the other armorers with whom I've worked have ever had to do it).

Speaking of drawbars, though, they're the most expensive frame assembly, and I like to have 1-2 spares for the different model/calibers ... just in case ... and I haven't needed to replace one for several years.

Since they no longer teach armorers to repair or adjust slide stop lever assemblies (whack with a babbitt to adjust the pin & body angle, and/or replace a plunger, spring or itty bitty roll pin), it might be helpful to keep a spare slide stop assembly on hand. We were originally told to watch for signs of increased recoil forces (9mm +P & +P+ duty ammo) resulting in the slide stop lever assemblies acquiring an increasing "bend", meaning either an inward or outward angle relationship of the lever body & the cross pin - versus the original 90-degree angle). Recoil forces can do funny things over time in some guns. I've actually had to replace a few slide stop lever assemblies in newer .40 & .45 TSW's for tolerance/fit/function issues. Just a handful out of a few hundred guns. I consider the 2-3 of each of them I've put back (for the single/double column frames & calibers) to be a lifetime supply for both my own guns, as well as those of a couple of friends & relatives who own & shoot 3rd gen guns.

I've had to replace a few mag catch bodies and nuts. A slight tolerance/fit issue in a couple of newer guns, and then a few rusted/corroded springs in older guns.

I shoot a fair amount, BTW. (Hey, the ammo as an instructor & armorer is the right price. )

Aside from mag & recoil springs being replaced periodically, my personal collection of spare/repair parts mostly sits in drawers & bins while my guns get used.

Sorry if this info is rambling or without organization, but I was just using a simple list from my old notes and adding some observations I could think of off the top of my head.

Now, for folks who like to think they've seen enough video clips or bootlegged armorer manuals to make them qualified to start repairing, modifying or "improving" their own pistols? Well, perhaps S&W would have to really increase their parts inventory in order to keep the gunsmiths, repair techs and armorers in enough parts to correct things.

Best.
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 04-03-2012 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:48 PM
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Now I happen to agree with the OP. I can't speak for him, but here's the deal for me.

It don't seem to me that a fine pistol like a 3rd gen Smith would be very likely to break a part. Doubtful. Highly unlikely.

However, unlikely isn't the same as "it won't happen", now is it. Anything can break especially in some people's hands. I've even broken a fiberglass handled framing hammer. Don't tell me what I can't screw up!

Was shooting with a friend once. He had the extractor pop out and we couldn't to save our lives find it in the gravel. It was his carry gun and he suddenly looked at me with hollow eyes as he realized he was now unarmed.

I looked at him, grinned and said, "No parts at home?" knowing full well that I had the part he needed.

We went to my house and had him up & running for free and in no time.

Come Monday he ordered up a whole pile of parts.

So I guess that's how some of us look at it. This thread makes me glad I bought the parts for my Shorty 45s/4516s twenty years ago. (I've also got parts for my RCBS presses, too. )


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Old 04-03-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
Hmmm......

In eighteen years of carrying and shooting S&W 3rd generation pistols, the only part - besides recoil springs and mag springs - I've needed was a mag catch for a 4516-3.

And I wouldn't have needed that, were it not a MIM part that fractured like the cheap pot metal it was.

You folks either shoot ALOT more than I do......or you're beating on those pistols, to need so many parts.

Extra sideplates? Are getting the grips on and off causing that? Seriously, what parts are you seeing break? Regards 18DAI
You're correct, 3rd Gens are tough!

Most of the parts that I have are small springs and plungers which can get lost and are relatively cheap. Side plates can and do get damaged when installing new grips. If one is careful, that usually doesn't happen. I currrently own 19 3rd Gens, but have had about another 11 pass through my hands over the past 5 years. Sometimes I would purchase a nice pistol but when I would disassemble it, I note that the prior owner, while generally taking good care of it, damaged one of the fingers on the side plate and bent it back into shape. Yeah, it would work, but I prefer to change it out for a new one.

As for the recoil spring guides (the ones that are aluminum), they have been known to crack over time, especially those used in 10mm pistols. Also, the steel back end of the guide that is punch-fitted (staked) into the aluminum body can become excessively loose over time. And, of course, once and a while I would acquire an otherwise nice 3rd Gen that for some reason would have a damaged recoil spring guide. Yeah, it might be serviceable, but I prefer a 99%+ guide on an otherwise 99%+ pistol, but that's just me.

Of course, the trigger play spring gets damaged rather easily over time, so having a few of those along with extra rivets is nice. The rivets are hard to handle and easily lost, the S&W techs suggested having two or three rivets for each trigger play spring in your parts kit. And, by the way, the latest revision of trigger play spring (the fingers are not separate, but are linked by a cross bar) is far and away stronger than the original.

I like having several sear release levers on hand. I've obtained 3rd Gens that, while their levers work, changing the lever (sometimes trying more than one) gives a cleaner break when operating the safety. Each one seems to vary a bit.

I like having extra grips, grip pins, magazine bases and followers on hand. You might be surprised how useful they are. Sometimes I would acquire a dirty 3rd Gen that looked like it was an 85% pistol. After a good cleaning, new grip to replace the original which was a little beat up, new grip pin, new magazines bases, new followers and the pistol would easily pass as 95%+.

I believe that anyone who has disassembled an 3rd Gen adjustable rear sight would tell you that having a few extra plungers and spring on hand is a good thing.

Finally, I like having a number of parts when I'm searching gun stores and gun shows for 3rd Gens. There have been more than a few times that I would see a pistol for sale that was really nice except, for whatever reason, it would have one or two damaged parts. Interestingly, I would use that fact to try and reduce the price (sometimes it would work) and then take it to my work bench and bingo, like new again. FWIW
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:01 PM
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Buy a parts gun.
Shoot until you die.
Problem solved.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:02 PM
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OK Catshooter and Denver Dick, I see what you fellas are saying now. Its an insurance policy - for the future. Makes sense.

I guess I'm SOL at this point for spare parts, so I will buy a few more S&W 45's.....you know......to cannibalize to keep my good ones running!

Thanks Fastbolt, for once again sharing your experience and expertise with us!! Regards 18DAI
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:13 PM
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Thanks for the info guys, my 5906's still see frequent carry (off) duty. I'd really like to try an alloy frame 3rd Gen for a TDA 45, but don't know if that will happen at this point.

An oldie but goodie:

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Old 04-03-2012, 04:32 PM
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BTW, the "newer style" solid guide rods (but really a style designed some years ago, and eventually incorporated across some of the model line) can still require a parts replacement if the plunger and/or its spring are removed and lost. (One of our guys "discovered" they're removable at the cleaning station one day). The springs snap onto the end of the plunger, and then the plunger/spring "assembly" can then be pushed/twisted into the end of the rod body.

The rod plungers for the TSW's are usually steel, although there are still some plastic plungers available. They're larger in diameter than the earlier plungers, and might offer more resistance when pushing the slide stop lever's pin out from under them. I don't have a preference, myself, and am currently running both plastic & steel guide rod plungers in a few of my own guns.

The original style staked type has the head/collar staked onto the aluminum rod body in a press. Each "press" action makes 3 indentations. It was hand-operated equipment. If the pressure was too heavy, very, very small surface cracks might be visible, but I've been told that it's not an issue regarding function & normal service life.

On the other hand, there were some hardening issues in at least one production batch of older style rod, where the end of the rod became deformed (peened wider, I suppose you could say, or mushroomed?), and it started to create functioning problems when the end of the rod eventually wouldn't easily run in & out of the slide's spring box guide rod hole. (That's why we inspect our equipment during cleanings, right, looking for something we might catch by eye before it becomes a more serious problem?)

New style rod & plunger ... Chiefs Special (black) on left and a compact TSW on right.




Closer look




New style on left, older staked assemblies in middle and on right. (Notice overlapped staking on 1 body? Did I mention the staking process was controlled by hand? )




More detail
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:47 PM
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I'm not really worried about parts, I don't shoot thousands of rounds in my guns at a time..and even then, all you need at that point are just springs if you don't throw your gun around. Wolff will support us with springs once Smith no longer does, but even that won't be for a while...I just ordered a brand new mag spring and recoil spring for my 1006 from Smith. This is a gun that hasn't been made since 1992 and only in small numbers compared to the others. I also picked up a brand new production mag for the same gun that was on back-order from Smith, which was also shipped out last week. They might not produce a lot of parts at a time, but small runs should still be expected.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:56 PM
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A couple year ago I bought several complete parts kits (minus frame) from a variety of auction sites. Last week I placed a large order from Numrich which has already arrived. This thread has made me feel more confident that I did the right thing spending the coin.

That being said, I shoot my 3rd Gens a lot and have rarely needed to do anything to them other than clean, lube and replace recoil springs. And that includes duty guns that have been in service for decades.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mlk18 View Post
A couple year ago I bought several complete parts kits (minus frame) from a variety of auction sites. Last week I placed a large order from Numrich which has already arrived. This thread has made me feel more confident that I did the right thing spending the coin.

That being said, I shoot my 3rd Gens a lot and have rarely needed to do anything to them other than clean, lube and replace recoil springs. And that includes duty guns that have been in service for decades.
I've also tried a couple of non-factory sources for S&W 3rd gen parts when the factory was back-ordered, or it wasn't known when the next vendor run would be done and shipped for some part or other. The last couple of times I did so, I ended up receiving much older production parts than I'd expected, one of which was for a vintage/model I dating back to 1st or 2nd gen (the website listed it as a 3rd gen assembly). They refunded my money on that one easily enough, though.

Sometimes "parts is parts", especially within the 2nd & 3rd gen models, but even the parts & assemblies have benefited from ongoing revisions, refinements, design changes and even manufacturing improvements over the years. I like to get the most recent production parts I can, when possible.

Some assemblies which S&W receives as casting from their vendors have to receive further machining in-house before they're completed. As the machining has been shifted around a bit, as they make room for newer model lines and new projects, you can imagine how it might slow availability of those types of parts/assemblies (even for outside businesses to buy them for their own retail sales).

In the last several years I've actually spent more of my own money on repair/replacement parts than my former agency has spent (although the company will ship replacement parts to an agency armorer under warranty if the needs arises for a particular part between parts orders). It's not like I'll actually "need" them, but I simply like to have them on hand, for both my own guns and for those belonging to friends. I've also gotten calls from time to time from local armorers I know who might need the odd (seldom used) part, and they'd rather not wait for them to be mailed by the company.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:20 PM
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This has tuned out to be a most learned thread...glad I started it. I'm still wondering that in a pinch if you could cut the coils from a 4506 recoil spring and make it work in the 4516-1 if push came to shove. Anyone know or tried that?

I should be receiving this pistol before the end of the week and hope it has the all steel plunger in the guide rod and not the plastic jobby that comes with the 457.

My 4506 has primarily been my HD pistol. Even though I bought it in late 1990, it's only had 800-900 or so rounds through it. I saw no need to test it more since it's proved utterly reliable with all yo gave it. I guess at that rate it'll last forever-surely outlast me. I'm taking it out again next range time. It probably misses my company there. So, it'll get to ride with little brother soon.

Still, I'd like to have some spare parts around for both but most of what I have are mags and their springs and recoil springs for the 4506-not much else. With five 45's, it's hard to ware out any of them...well, six counting the upcoming 4516-1 but I don't really like the 45 ACP.

As for the various 45's, I'd like to see a parts interchangeability list as to what would fit what if need be. I've seen the question over and over about will a 45 16 magazine work with a 4516 or will all 45 mag springs in 7 and 8 round mags work. That would be helpful to many.

These great pistols may not have been as popular in their day and certainly not now with the Glock, MP, HK and other polymer pistols taking over but for my money and experience, they're second to none...period.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:48 PM
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The online Parts Lists will usually cover those sort of compatibility questions (except when they don't, of course ).

I've never bothered to start cutting coils on recoil springs (not when new springs can be bought). You don't want to make a mistake. Sometimes an aftermarket recoil spring might be longer in unsprung length, but made of different gauge wire. Also, if you leave too many coils and get a bad coil-stack condition, you might cause damage (crack) to the spring box of the slide when it bottoms out against the compressed spring before the slide has reached the end of its slide run distance. Not good. The slides are the second most expensive part in the gun, and spare/repair slides might be limited.

Sometimes the publicly listed website Parts Lists aren't going to be as current as the constantly revised in-house lists (don't ask me why), and you can get a more current answer for a parts question, especially when you're referencing different calibers/models and checking for compatibility.

There's been some changes in "repair" parts for different calibers & models over the years, too. The early repair spring kit of nested extractor springs for the 59XX guns was replaced by a pair of springs that could be tried (individually, being normal "size" springs of different tension, and not nested). I also once encountered a different extractor spring intended for a budget .40 (can't remember if it was a 410 or 411?) 411 (410?) which had a slightly different slide mass from a limited production run (the person helping me didn't know why), and that spring wasn't listed in any of my extractor spring lists. Glad I called and ordered a couple of them.

The sad thing is that as more of the older workers at the company are retiring, we're going to be losing the knowledge & expertise developed in the metal-framed 1st - 3rd gen pistols. Eventually, there may not be folks who can identify the machined cut in the slide, under the barrel in the steel separating the barrel and the recoil spring. It's sometimes been mistaken for a crack or break, instead of the deliberate machined cut needed to let you lift the barrel out of the slide for field-stripping.

I worry more about the loss of knowledge & experience than I do parts.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:10 PM
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The first time I heard of cutting coils from a 1911 Government model and using them in a commander was from a fellow that goes my 1911Tuner that's on several 1911 forums. I forgot how many he cut but I think the GM has 32 coils and he cut them for the Commander back to about 23-24. Apparently, they work as he said h e hadn't bought a recoil spring for a Commander in years.

Yep-everything that's in S&W's parts list ain't necessarily going to be in stock or even made anymore-found that out recently. I've talked with a guy named Joe at S&W about parts and he's always been very helpful and suggestive. The fellow I talked with yesterday was a lot younger-maybe in his mid 20's or so. Joe is probably about 60 or so or three-about and perhaps he retired. Once the old timers are gone, the knowledge goes with them.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:38 PM
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Cutting coils from 1911 springs has been done enough that you can find folks who have already developed the right answers.

I don't have that info about 3rd gen S&W's, though. Never had a reason to look into it with recoil springs being easily available.

Several years ago I started collecting quantities of recoil springs for the various 3rd gen guns I own and use, instead of just ordering a spring when I thought I was getting ready to need one.

Then a little later I started doing the same with mags and mag springs. I'll periodically order an extra mag, and then a half dozen mag springs, just to keep a running supply building up.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:16 PM
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Sounds like a good plan to me. Too bad I didn't do that...hindsight as usual. Hopefully, I can find all I need about this upcoming 4506 Lite to do me. At this age it won't take much or many.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
OK Catshooter and Denver Dick, I see what you fellas are saying now. Its an insurance policy - for the future. Makes sense.

I guess I'm SOL at this point for spare parts, so I will buy a few more S&W 45's.....you know......to cannibalize to keep my good ones running!

Thanks Fastbolt, for once again sharing your experience and expertise with us!! Regards 18DAI
Yeah... that sounds like the ticket!! Why no dear, this is not ANOTHER gun... I only bought it for parts, because... er, you know nothing last forever... and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to see all of the money I've already spent on them go to waste when something simple breaks, and then it becomes a door stop because parts are not as easy as before to find.....

Does that sound convincing enough?

Fastbolt... me too, thanks much for sharing all of that info with us!!
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:42 PM
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Glad to know all I'll probably ever need is springs, maybe a guide rod, and maybe (maybe!) an extractor/extractor spring set. By the time I ACTUALLY break this, I'll probably be dead, I'll have my .45 reloading setup, or I'll already have another quality pistol.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:23 AM
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A-Yup. For the most part the day of the all-metal auto has passed (1911 excluded). Polymer guns are lighter, work as well, are cheaper to make and have been in service for a quarter of a century.

Man am I going to get rained on for this!
Don't tell that to SIG. They are selling them as fast as they can make them. My next gun may be the compact 9mm P239 SAS GenII. Everything a 3rd gen used to be.

Look in any gun store. Metal 1911's are flying out the door. People that know, do want metal, quality guns.

Will polymer framed guns make up a large part of the market? Absolutely!. But informed buyers and experienced shooters will want to be able to buy metal framed guns as well.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:41 AM
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Regarding 3rd generation being obsolete.

Smith and Wesson STILL MAKES ,as we speak 3913's for NY PD (VERY big agency) ALSO , they are still making a 4006 for CHP ( VERY, VERY big agency)

If You have 3913/14's or 4006, THEY HAVE ALL THE PARTS TO SERVICE YOUR GUN since they are making them new. And will have them for some time to come.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:41 PM
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Regarding 3rd generation being obsolete.

Smith and Wesson STILL MAKES ,as we speak 3913's for NY PD (VERY big agency) ALSO , they are still making a 4006 for CHP ( VERY, VERY big agency)

If You have 3913/14's or 4006, THEY HAVE ALL THE PARTS TO SERVICE YOUR GUN since they are making them new. And will have them for some time to come.
Slight correction: NYPD has approx. 36,000 sworn officers (very, very large). CHP has approx. 7,500 sworn officers (large).
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:54 PM
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Slight correction: NYPD has approx. 36,000 sworn officers (very, very large). CHP has approx. 7,500 sworn officers (large).
Copy that
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:55 PM
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Regarding 3rd generation being obsolete.

Smith and Wesson STILL MAKES ,as we speak 3913's for NY PD (VERY big agency) ALSO , they are still making a 4006 for CHP ( VERY, VERY big agency)

If You have 3913/14's or 4006, THEY HAVE ALL THE PARTS TO SERVICE YOUR GUN since they are making them new. And will have them for some time to come.
I think the NYPD allows the 5946 as a duty gun along with Glock 19 and Sig P226 DAO. AND revolvers are grandfathered in for the older guys.

Perhaps you mean off-duty guns? They're having a big switch right now, officers are turning in their Kahr K9's and $50 for a new G26. My FFL is inundated with NYPD coming in and switching OD's.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:11 PM
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I know S&W has made several interesting 3rd Gens for the NYPD in recent year, presumably for off duty use. They seem to have the only supply of the 3914DAO and the 3914TSW. And to confirm what ladder13 said, I have seen a few police-trade-in Kahr K9's on the market recently. I was wondering where they were coming from.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:18 PM
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I know S&W has made several interesting 3rd Gens for the NYPD in recent year, presumably for off duty use. They seem to have the only supply of the 3914DAO and the 3914TSW. And to confirm what ladder13 said, I have seen a few police-trade-in Kahr K9's on the market recently. I was wondering where they were coming from.
You're going to see 1,000's on the market, if Kahr releases them. Don't know what deal they made with the devil, Bloomberg.
I would think they authorize the DAO version of the 3900 series, the 3953 and 3954. Maybe??
Forum member Big Boku could shed a whole bunch of light on this.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:27 PM
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Don't tell that to SIG. They are selling them as fast as they can make them. My next gun may be the compact 9mm P239 SAS GenII. Everything a 3rd gen used to be.

Look in any gun store. Metal 1911's are flying out the door. People that know, do want metal, quality guns.

Will polymer framed guns make up a large part of the market? Absolutely!. But informed buyers and experienced shooters will want to be able to buy metal framed guns as well.
SIG and Beretta are probably my favorite manufacturer these days, simply because they still make metal guns. Smith hasn't really impressed me in the last 10 years, I'd rather buy a nice used 1st/2nd/3rd gen auto or a used non-trigger lock wheelgun by them. I also refuse to buy one of the SIG P250's, and yes I have shot and handled them. They simply do not look like a completed gun from the back, I'm just picky I guess. My GLOCK, USP and XD will suffice in the plastic department...otherwise it's all metal for me. I wish the others in my generation felt the same way, but sadly they all want plastic.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:39 PM
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You're going to see 1,000's on the market, if Kahr releases them. Don't know what deal they made with the devil, Bloomberg.
I would think they authorize the DAO version of the 3900 series, the 3953 and 3954. Maybe??
Forum member Big Boku could shed a whole bunch of light on this.
The 3953/54 is authorized for; off duty/retired LEO (NYC)
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lawman90 View Post
SIG and Beretta are probably my favorite manufacturer these days, simply because they still make metal guns. Smith hasn't really impressed me in the last 10 years, I'd rather buy a nice used 1st/2nd/3rd gen auto or a used non-trigger lock wheelgun by them. I also refuse to buy one of the SIG P250's, and yes I have shot and handled them. They simply do not look like a completed gun from the back, I'm just picky I guess. My GLOCK, USP and XD will suffice in the plastic department...otherwise it's all metal for me. I wish the others in my generation felt the same way, but sadly they all want plastic.
I agree with You .
Sig P226 9mm (or SIG MK23 9mm) and Beretta 92 series ( or 92G LE, M9) are WORLD popular service pistols that are really great. Much better than most. The only pistol with a better record is an FN Hi Power 9mm.

The only pistol that can give them and IS giving them true competition (WORLDWIDE) is a G17 9mm.

With LE , G22 GEN4 (15/22 rd magazine capacity) seems to be be a weapon of choice here in US.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:25 PM
ladder13 ladder13 is offline
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The 3953/54 is authorized for; off duty/retired LEO (NYC)
Thanks Matt, seems they don't trust their own people with anything except a DAO auto.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:06 PM
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ColColt ColColt is offline
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I've only had two autos that never gave any trouble at all...the 4506 and the HK USP-C 45. If I were to choose a 9mm it would definitely be the USP-C in that caliber over a SIG...unless, it was a P226 made in Germany-the whole thing, not just the slide or frame. My P220 from the early 90's was another flawless pistol. Made in Germany as well and digested the flying ashtray equally as well as ball ammo.
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