So what happens when the background check system is down? Should the range close for the day? Should YOU be checked every time YOU go to the range? After all you can commit a felony after leaving your last gun range session. Someone who wants to commit a crime but hasnt yet can just as easily pass the bg check and commit the crime. Do nailguns count? How about knives? Chainsaws? Also, being a felon doesnt mean you were a killer or rapist. B. Madoff is a felon yet he never physically laid a hand on anyone.

Quit helping the antis. A gun doesnt have to be for friggin hunting in order to have it. Nor does it have to be for dealing with tge government or zombies or foreign invaders. How about "i just like AKs" while I really dont care for bolt or lever guns. Why is that a problem?

So by your definition I should only own 50 year old bolt or lever action rifle and be checked at the range every time.

Un-be-*******g-lievable

I believe you shouldnt drive a pickup truck since mosf people dont actually haul anything every time they get into one. A Geo Metro should be plenty for you. And all you guys 50 and oldrr should be given driving tests every 2 years. Over 60? Every 1 year. 65-70 every 6 months. Anything over 70.....every time you get behind the wheel

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Why they most certainly do, when I was in south Florida visiting a friend's family, I thought it would be a good idea to go to the gun range and give my Hi Power Practical a good run through. While I was going to go on a Saturday but did not end up going, some convicted felon went in Sunday morning, rented a wheel gun and went to the range. Fired off a couple of shots then shot himself in the head. I thought to myself well good I did not go to that range. I do not go to any ranges now and shoot with friends or relatives on private property.

You never know who you are shooting with at a range, especially ones that rent guns to convicted felons without a background check. I understand that people kill people and not the guns but their is a difference from someone at a Home Depot with a butter knife then someone at the range with a 38 special. I can handle myself well enough that I am not concerned with someone with a knife. I am concerned with someone with a gun able to shoot me without provocation or warning.

Wow

One time a felon got into a car and died in a car accident. Since then I sit at home and hope nothing ever never ever ever happens

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You have a right to own what you want as long as it is not illegal. Really do not understand what you arguing with, if you have a vested interest or make money off the non background check firearm rentals then I can see how this opinion would offend you. I believe in rightful ownership and told an anti gun organization trying to get money from me to ban assault rifles to blow off. There are lots of agendas out there and my opinion is just that mine, I do not feel comfortable shooting guns around someone who could have been popped for murder, drugs or no telling what. You all can think of yourselves as Rambo and you would blow away some fool at a gun range killing a bunch of people. Once someone anyone with a gun, could be a 12 year old kid, gets the drop on you. Then you might as well kiss your arse good bye.

No agenda. Dont own a range or any gun related business.

Same can happen at the mall, at the DMV at the post office.....ANYWHERE.

What if your felon bought a gun of the street, walked into a gun range and started blasting away? What if that same felon did that at the grocery store? Does everyone need a background check there too? You heard of one experience in Florida many many years ago and you have assume irs everywhere and at all times. In reality what happened was tge guy wanted to commit suicide but couldnt buy a gun because he HAPPEND to be a felon. So he rented one instead.

I dont know all my neighbors and all could be felons. Its quite possible that if I step outside I could immediately shot by a dozen different people

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I cannot think of a worse place for some nut to try and kill people!! I mean everyone there is armed. Mass murders like easy prey and unarmed prey, not those with guns for protection. LOL It would be like walking into and trying hold up a gun store with a club.

One incident of suicide gets blow up by the press and you are off crying the sky is falling, the sky is falling. LOL

How do you ever get out of the house each day with all the felons walking the street? A gun range is one of the safest places in the world, other than the those that don't know basic gun safety. Those are the real threats at shooting ranges.

Also illegal guns are easier to get than legal ones as their are no checks on them, no federal forms to fill out, and no taxes. Most gun laws are mostly aimed at law abiding citizens and not actual criminals. With the government shipping illegal guns to Mexico to be used against our border guards, I trust the average citizen's judgment much more than I do our federal government's judgment.

We should be trying to eliminate 90% of the laws on the books, not dreaming unneeded up new ones.

ok, your right. Now the back to the topic at hand.

The 3rd gens will continue to rise in price because they no longer are made and are very popular in movies and tv shows. For the time period in which they were around, they proved themselves to be quality firearms hence why the inflated prices on them today.

What inflated prices? Just as there is no problem at the gun range that needs new laws, the prices for the most part on 3rd generation pistols are undervalued. This has been stated and restated so I don't understand why you keep asking.

Yea they run about $400 here. Not inflated bit this does change from area to area

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It was just a statement, 3rd gens sell for the same price if not more money than when they were new. As you know, a 500-600 dollar gun sells a lot faster and quicker than a 2-3 grand gun. It was a general statement and not as something that should be taken literally.

Perhaps we need background checks to post on this forum - there have been a few nutters sneak in even though there are rules against them.

looking at the last couple of pages........on felons renting guns......

I no longer go to the "public ranges" at state game lands here in Pa.
Too many people around that I'd rather not have around me with guns and ammo!

I've only been to a couple of rental ranges...... IIRC only 1-2 employees...... pretty empty......... not sure about other security....... couple of "bad guys" (say from Boston) rent guns, buy ammo............shoot employees and clean out the range and gun shop..........

Rental range employee....... not a job I'd want!!!!!

OK ...... let's return to our regular programing !!!!!!

Arik

After an earlier post;

Glock 19 empty = 21ozs

3913 empty= 24.8 ...OK 25 ozs

+ 8rds of 9mm in the Glock = wash on carry weight........

Who the heck dug up this old thread anyway....

perfectcircle1 your finger prints are all over it.. LOL......but it was Gater1

Its funny how threads transform. All i was stating was how beat up third gens that i wouldn't mind having are priced ridiculously

Maybe that's why they call them threads......... just pull on one and see where it goes......................................................

That's not unique to 3rd G auto's.

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Sure you did

well gee, no its not but it is still better than some custom guns that sell for hundreds if not a thousand + less than when they were new.

Ever see a used Nighthawk or Wilson sell?

Can't say, those guns don't interest me one bit.

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Sure you did

Funny you should day that. I used to go the State Game Land 183 in NE PA. One time I went (a Saturday), the lot was jammed. There were at least 6 cars with NY plates (no big deal, I'm from NY). The range is about 30 minutes over the NY border. Saw three guys wearing "ghetto garb" shooting (or should I saw spraying) an AK at the target. Another guy next to me was trying to figure out how to load his M1 Garand with the barrel pointed at my head.

So I leave and come back on a weekday. Guy in his early 60's wearing Vietnam era fatigues. He has no hearing protection on so I tell him I'm about to shoot. he tells me he "didn't need em in the 'Nam, I don't need them npw". OK, I start shooting. The dude pulls out an M1 carbine and starts shooting. He's yelling Asian racial epithets as he fires "two the the chest, one to the head, take that you Dink!". I leave.

Now, I shoot at a private range on weekdays only. Too many idiot gun owners out there.

As for ranges renting to felons, it's a horrible idea.

And I'd sell 2 Glocks to buy one 3rd Gen.

I think I can concur With a previous post that When you compare the cost of these almost any price there a bargain with new manufacture plastic guns
I was very fortunate within the last 6 weeks I pick up two 5906s one was Friday at a bargain cost
the really nice thing about these going up is it proves that I was not a fool to start collecting them in the first place. I started collecting them in 2011 and have built up a nice collection you just have to watch and be ready to act immediately
the only one that I am short at that this time is a 1006 and we all know those bring a premium

Hank

I use state game land out in Jim Thorpe Pa. Like it a lot. Hardly ever run into anyone besides locals sighting in their new deer rifles

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Did anyone here see that auction on GB for a really nice looking 4513TSW early non rail that ended a little while ago? It went for $725. Box, papers & two magazines. I saw it when it was first listed & I knew it was going to go high.

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

My Bad! I refer to this post a lot and was just looking to keep current.

Actually $750.00 lest you forget $25.00 shipping, then you have what the FFL will charge for the transfer. So it looks like the .45 3rd gens are beginning to catchup to the 10mms. In all honesty I ran the pistol to 675, which I didn't want to pay and expected to be out bid but when it hit 725 the evil in me wanted to juice it a bit to see how high it would go but afraid I would get stuck holding that bag. The pistol is nice but not perfect , when I received the outbid notification I was kind of relieved.

Yes I saw that one. It started out priced at 1 penny and the bidders determined the final value.

I also saw another one sold about a month ago for $560 with 5 mags on GB. It was in pretty nice condition with no box or papers. Auctions are weird. If the right two bidder show up the gun can bring a real premium. If not, there are some good deals to be had.

I bought a pristine in the box with papers and 4 mags on this site about a this past December for $650 shipped.

The 4513TSW without a rail is a fairly rare gun and there will be no more of them made.

Check the price on a Colt Python or Diamondback, or Gold Cup. They are selling for 4 or 5 or 6 times their original cost.

Check the price of a S&W Model 610 revolver. These revolvers are going for 1200 to 1800 depending on condition and barrel length, and for a 3 inch like new in the box even more.

If the going rate for a like new in the box Model 4513TSW is 650 to 750. I don’t see how that is over priced given the quality that went into a Model 4513TSW. The TSW variants are a pretty serious upgrade over the standard third generation in precision hand fitting and tolerances and that translates into accuracy. These are somewhere between a standard production pistol and a PC pistol.

Even if these 4513TSWs were a $1,000 for a like new in the box, theywould be a better buy than one of the new plastic fantastics.

My suggestion to those unwilling to pay the price for them is to buy another product that they consider more properly priced.

I have a gold cup and while they are selling for 20-30 percent more than I paid for it, they are no where near the 3-4 times value you posted.

I saw it too, fortunately for me my gun budget is depleted right now cause i would have bid on it

There is a lot of misinformation on here, but fortunately a lot if guys do get it.

3rd gens, LNIB or NIB are basically selling for roughly what they did when new 10 years ago, or a little more. They sell for about the same or less than a comparable metal SIG or Beretta, and about the same or less than a new FN (my favorite polymer guns), HK or Springfield. Less than the cost of a stainless Ruger or Remington 1911.

What's the beef?

Not talking about well used ones or police trade-ins, as I don't buy those. You may think they're overpriced, I can't say. But the LNIB and NIB models are generally a bargain.

If I find a Scandium 4040 again LNIB for under $1000, as I have several times in the last year, I plan to buy it.

It is just such talk as that that keeps me from carrying and enjoying my 4040.

Hokie, where were you when I was selling mine a few weeks ago on here?

I did notice that a pretty nice one sold just last night on GB for $505. The guy that bought it should be indicted for theft!

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

I wonder why S&W doesn't bring the Gen3 guns back. From my limited knowledge, they are still being made for various police depts....so why not just make more? The market is flooded with plastic pistols, a gen3 gun would be unique now(ironic), they will sell

The last time I priced a new gold cup back in the 1980's you could get a Gold Cup for $400 to $425 retail all over Houston. Carter Country had them for $405 and they are not cheap on their prices. I certainly wish I had bought a dozen of them and put them in the safe. Recently, I have seen them in like new in the box condition bringing upwards of $1200. It is true they have not gone up as much as the older colt revolvers, but it is a lot more than 20 or 30 percent.

I will grant they are nothing like the Pythons in like new condition or the Diamond backs, as far as going up in multiples of their original cost. I bought a 22. LR Diamond back new for $285 in Pasadena Texas in the 1980's and sold it about 6 or 7 years ago for $1000 with box and papers. It was in excellent condition with a very low round count, but not quite like new. I expect it will bring well over $1200 today if it is still in that condition.

These early no rail 4513TSW were made 1997-1999, so the Colts I am referring to had longer to appreciate. That is one factor I did not allow for. I don't know what the newer Gold Cups were selling for in the same period (1997-99). So if you are looking at 1997-99 prices, and all I remember are the very early prices, you may be right and I may be comparing very different time frames. I really don't follow Colts as I don't intend to ever buy another one. I am simply reacting to some of the recent values that have been staggeringly high for what you get, and for what they sold for when I was pricing them.

In 1993 I bought new a 4006 (not the TSW) for $500. I still have the box and paperwork on it and I have put maybe 200 rounds through it. It was never carried and basically in pristine condition. If I were interested in selling it, which at this time I am not, I doubt I could get more than $600 to $650 for it 20 years later in vastly inflated dollars. in real value it is worth less today than when I bought it.

In other words my original payment of $500 would buy more than $1000 dollars of most items these days. Certainly my 1993 $500 would be worth more than a $1000 today in groceries, gas, automobiles, motor cycles, homes, and all the other items the government does not use when calculating inflation. So unlike my Colt diamond back that increased in value far above the rate of inflation, my third generation 4006 has actually lost value in terms of real buying power.

So getting back to the original theme of third generation pistols being over priced and selling for more than they originally costs, I say no way. I still think third generation pistols are one of the best value buys in firearms today. They are the only real high quality gun I can think of that is under priced in the market place today.

One reason for this is that 3 to 6 years ago, a great many police departments dumped all their third generation pistols on the market at the same time. This flooded the market and kept prices down for a long time. That over supply has slowly but surely been absorbed by the civilian population. Prices are starting to rise on third generation pistols, but nothing like I expect them to rise in the next 10 years.

I expect those complaining about current prices of third generation pistols are reacting to the increase from the prices of a few years ago when the market was artificially depressed and flooded by all the police service guns, as so many departments switched to the cheaper plastic fantastic pistols. The supply for several years exceeded the demand. That is no longer the case, so look for them to go up up up from here.

Again, I agree with paying upwards of 7-800 for one like new in box with paperwork and all the goodies. Its when i see a gun that was mass produced and particular one that looks like it got ran over by a train then sat in the rain for a year for 4-500 im completely dumbfounded. Why would i spend that money for junk. Im not a junk collector. Really doesn't even matter to me about the ones that are like new. If the price is outrageous ill just take 2 more steps to the 1911 cabinet

Because 1) they would cost A LOT MORE $$$ to make now and 2) it has grown to be a plastic world. FWIW

Exactly!

A few of my 19 3rd Gens are 98% or so, but the vast majority range from LNIB to 99%. The most I paid for any one of them was around $675, but most cost me between $350 and $550. However, it should be noted that I purchased all of them between January 2007 and June 2009. Hunting down 99% or better 3rd Gens throughout the counties of Los Angeles and Orange in California was an obsession for me during that period. At one point I had around 25 or so, but I sold off some duplicates and a few I just didn't like.

Frankly, it was round that June 2009 that I noticed the prices were rising quickly for the really nice ones. In fact, it was the last one I bought that cost me the $675. That one was my 645 LNIB with paperwork (yeah, I know it's a 2nd Gen, but it's more like a 3rd than a 2nd to me). It was (and still is) absolutely lovely . . . nice way to end an obsession.

I am not quoting that long story you just told, but I think maybe you have me wrong? I was not complaining about the prices, lucky for me that when I have been in search of 3rd gens there has been enough of them on the market to make me really not over pay for them. Enough wholesalers and distributors get them that there still seems to be a lot of them out there. Only do rare models seem to bring more money these days.

I understand your inflation model but have some better inflation for you. I still have my grandfathers 1958 Model 12 Winchester, and I doubt very seriously he paid 75-100 bucks for it and a 1965 Browning Sweet 16 that was purchased new for 150 bucks and I just came across one in worst shape then mine for 3 grand at the local Caebelas. Things increase in price especially as inflation increases and workmanship/ quality decreases. I love third gen smiths and they are nice firearms but again, I do not know if they will ever bring the kind of super money a Colt SAA can or even obscure guns like the Bren Tenn which were not that great when new but now are 3-4 grand a piece.

Some times guns you think will be worth a lot are not and the ones you would think would be worth nothing bring the money. I think no one can say which 3rd gens are going to be the most desirable yet, the market will determine that one. Since I am a betting man then my money is on the Tacticals, Performance Center pieces, and Horton specials.

I traded a Deer rifle for my 4506 in 1988. Carried it for 12 years. It has holster wear. The corners at the back of the trigger guard bothered my index finger after long sessions. A gunsmith smoothed them down just a touch. He then polished the back end of the barrel cause it looked cool. He was right and it still shines today, and that was in the 90's The grip is pinged in many places from hitting everything I passed for that 12 years. It has never been dropped. Its been disassembled more time than I can count. When I retired so did the 4506. She is still the prettiest girl at the dance. And if I had to dance again I'd want no other at my side.

Most of the below makes sense, but some of the math is plain wrong. The return on investment for guns, for the most part, is well below the rate of inflation, let alone other investments. Let's use the Colt Gold Cup example as the poster used it as an example of a great return. In 1980, a Colt Gold Cup could be purchased for $400. That $400 in 1980 is worth $1133.96 in 2013 dollars if one uses the federal government's CPI inflation numbers (which most people say underscores the inflation rate). That is pretty close to what that same pistol is worth today. If we use a 4% annual inflation rate for the calculations, that same $400 would be worth $1199.48 today.

That means the Gold Cup returned 4% per year every year. That is not great performance. DuPont stock returned 4.35% annually before dividends are considered, and DuPont has not been a winner. ExxonMobil (Exxon in 1993) returned 8.77% per year before dividends are considered. More than double the return of the Gold Cup in a very safe stock and the stock also paid a fair amount in dividends.

What that means to 3rd Generation prices is that the guns are dropping in value when inflation is considered. $650 today for a 4006 that sold for $500 in 1993 is an annual return of 1.32%, well under even the official inflation rate. So one could argue that 3rd Generation guns are a better deal today than they were in 1993. That makes sense as there are many other more popular choices today (Glock, M&P, etc.), so there are fewer buyers for the 3rd Generation guns. Fewer buyers means lower prices.

If collectors start to take an interest in the 3rd Generation guns, there should be higher rates of appreciation than the 1.32% from the above. But right now, these guns are screaming good deals for shooters and collectors, especially the prices for the police trade-ins. When one can buy a 4046 for $335 (a bunch for sale in classifieds for $310 delivered plus $25 FFL fee) in 2013 compared to $500 in 1993, there is no need to compute the rate of return. For giggles, it is roughly -2% annually. That is worth a few scratches.

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Scott

People never take all of this into consideration! They say "i bought a house in 1975 for $25000 and sold it in 2013 for $250000, i made $225000!!!!" Well, no you didn't cause its gonna cost you that much to replace it. Buying something for a NOW price and selling it in the same market for the above now price is making money.

Perfectcircle1.... good point..... that's why you can't/shouldn't really count your home's value as "retirement money"........unless you really want to down size......LOL

But....... while the models above show guns only "breaking even" with inflation....... that is still better than.....my cameras, neighbor's boat, the Kids bicycles, my other neighbors pool.......

Guns are one of the few hobbies at least "break even" on some of the equipment......... lately I'm just glad I bought most of mine years ago!

[QUOTE=BAM-BAM;137392558]Perfectcircle1.... good point..... that's why you can't/shouldn't really count your home's value as "retirement money"........unless you really want to down size......LOL

But....... while the models above show guns only "breaking even" with inflation....... that is still better than.....my cameras, neighbor's boat, the Kids bicycles, my other neighbors pool.......

Guns are one of the few hobbies at least "break even" on some of the equipment......... lately I'm just glad I bought most of mine years ago![/QUOTE


This is very true. least they don't lose value over time like all the dale earnhardt 1/24 cars i bought lol

1). I'm pretty sure S&W could stay in the market. They are still making Gen3 guns for LEOs. Sigs cost quite a bit(220,226 etc) and they sell. 2). Not everyone want Tupperware, that's why Beretta 92s, CZ75s, Sigs and 1911s still sell.

I just bought a pristine WVSP 4566TSW. It is by far the most expensive pistol I have ever purchased. Long ago I knew prices on 3rd gennies would start to rise. As most have said, the glut dumped into the market by LE agencies has almost been absorbed by the shooting public. I also notice that when there is a thread here about a particular model or type, prices begin to rise on GB. I would also agree that they are a well built gun period. They offer a viable alternative to those that do not want a 1911 or a SIG style handgun.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

pics or it didn't happen....

It's not the deal you get. It's the deal you Think you get!

Well lets see if I wuz robbed.

Yesterday I picked up a LNIB 4516-2 with original box & docs and two mags. $618 OTD including sales tax.

The same dealer had a case full of NIB plastic striker fired junk. An average asking price on those was between $550 and $575 OTD give or take.

So I got an all stainless steel, compact 45, hammer fired, accurate, reliable, durable, no cheaply made parts, with a great trigger, that looks good doing all that, for less than $625 and for about $50 to $60 more than all the lesser guns in his display case.

Nah, the prices aren't too much for 3rd gen guns. The new guns are just overpriced for what they are and are driving up the price on the excellent guns that are no longer produced. By S&W anyways. Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: Oh, BTW the 19 year old white three dot sights were still intact!! They hadn't fallen out like on the new guns!

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

All depends on what the "stricker fired junk" was. If its a G30. Then no its not a better deal. Ill take the G30 for $550 any day over a 45xx for $100 more. If its a Ruger sure better deal.

To me value isnt just the gun but parts as well. I look at overall picture. Here is what a deal to me is. My 4586 for $375 otd.

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What were we talking about again?