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Old 08-22-2012, 01:08 AM
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Default The shield and +p ammo

Anyone shoot +p with the shield? Feedback?
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:49 AM
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People are doing it.

A favorite seems to be the Speer Gold Dot 124+P.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:05 AM
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It's my personal opinion that not a lot is gained by using +P in such a short barrel. I think standard 124gr. Gold Dot or Rem. Golden Saber would be excellent choices and save you money to.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:41 PM
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Plus P would be fine with the Shield,but I shoot the same load I carry in 3 1/2 inch nines,the 147gr. HST or Ranger.
It performs just fine in testing,and shoots well in the gun.ETA: The Golden Saber in 147 gr. is also a good performer,but some jacket petals may break off.Not a big deal as I havn't seen them shed the jacket.
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:00 AM
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I use CorBon 9mm +P 115gr JHP in my Ruger LC9. CorBon likely makes the most potent factory ammo on the market. Specs are 1350 fps with 466 ft lbs energy. Check the specs on your ammo, which is not likely even close. And again in a lighter (3 ounces) and slightly smaller gun, it shoots fine and recoil is not excessive. Sure you can feel the difference in recoil between practice ammo with only 320 ft lbs energy, but for such powerful SD ammo, it is controllable and you can get back on target fast.

I have a Shield 40, and use CorBon 135gr JHP with 1325 fps and 526 ft lbs energy. The recoil on it feels about the same as the recoil on my 9mm LC9. This is due to the Shield being 3 ounces heavier and the bore axis on the Shield is 3/16 inch lower than that of the LC9. A lower bore axis results in less felt recoil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magster View Post
It's my personal opinion that not a lot is gained by using +P in such a short barrel. I think standard 124gr. Gold Dot or Rem. Golden Saber would be excellent choices and save you money to.
I would disagree about this post. Testing shows a drop off in fps when you drop down in barrel length. In that case the shorter barrel would benefit from more powerful ammo, to offset the performance loss from the shorter barrel. I want to know that I am using the best SD ammunition, with the most stopping power. This is as long as I have practiced with that ammo, and know I can shoot well with it.

The S&W website FAQ states: "Use only commercially manufactured ammunition with internal ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI)."

CorBon is manufactured to SAMMI standards. And no I don't work for or own any stock in CorBon. Several years ago I just Googled "best SD ammo", and CorBon came very highly rated in a lot of reviews.

Bob

Last edited by robkarrob; 08-23-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:31 AM
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The discrepancy in energy and velocity between standard ammo and +P ammo is considerably less in a short barrel. Energy and velocity figures are from barrels that range between 4in to as long as 10in in some cases. The longer the barrel, the bigger the difference between standard and +P. The difference in a three inch barrel can be as little as 30 fps, generally considered insignificant. Manufacturers such as Speer make bullets specifically made for these lower velocity producing barrels and they are labeled SB. These are designed to expand at the lower velocity.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:10 PM
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While it may seem bass ackwards, the 147gr. standard pressure rounds seems to be the consensus recommendation from the ballistics professionals. My first choices for a 9mm carry load in my Shield: standard pressure 147gr. Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T or Federal HST. The last two suggestions are not likely found in your neighborhood sporting goods store, but they can be ordered in more economical (compared to 20/25 round 'boutique' boxes) 50 round LE boxes at several places on line. One place you can find it is: SGAmmo.com | Family Owned and Operated, Stillwater Oklahoma

To help better understand the *why* of what may appear to be counterintuitive thinking regarding short barreled ammo recommedations, read the following quoted email from a ballistics professional that knows of what he speaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Nowak

When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

Last edited by Desert Dog; 08-23-2012 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:14 PM
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Thanks for the replies guys... I'm not looking to really run +p exclusively, but I keep it loaded and carry it(when I'm allowed to) loaded with 124+p Speer gold dots. My guess is also, if your confronted with a defensive situation, the last thing I should be worrying about, is wear on my gun.
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Old 08-23-2012, 06:02 PM
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Desert Dog,good post.

FMJ,the 124+P Gold Dot is one of the best and gave more consistent shot to shot velocities in my own testing.
It averaged 1200 fps from a Glock 26. The high was 1205fps,so you can see the consistency there.
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Old 08-23-2012, 06:17 PM
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I prefer 147grn loads in all my 9mms including the Shield, but I did try some Corbon DPX 115 grn +P and it performed well out of the short barrel.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:56 PM
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Mag318,very good examples. Every DPX I've tested has performed superbly.It's actually pretty hard to find a bad 9mm round these days from a major manufacturer if you stick to the high end loads.Was the HST fired from the Shield?
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:36 PM
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Range Ammo..........115gr FMJ
Carry Ammo...........147gr Golden Sabres

In both my Glock 19 and Shield
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magster View Post
The discrepancy in energy and velocity between standard ammo and +P ammo is considerably less in a short barrel. Energy and velocity figures are from barrels that range between 4in to as long as 10in in some cases. The longer the barrel, the bigger the difference between standard and +P. The difference in a three inch barrel can be as little as 30 fps, generally considered insignificant. Manufacturers such as Speer make bullets specifically made for these lower velocity producing barrels and they are labeled SB. These are designed to expand at the lower velocity.
Pretty much. From the research I've done of other people's chrono results with 3.1 barreled guns, it looks like the +P 9mm ammo is producing about 40 fps more.
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robkarrob View Post
I use CorBon 9mm +P 115gr JHP in my Ruger LC9. CorBon likely makes the most potent factory ammo on the market. Specs are 1350 fps with 466 ft lbs energy. Check the specs on your ammo, which is not likely even close. And again in a lighter (3 ounces) and slightly smaller gun, it shoots fine and recoil is not excessive. Sure you can feel the difference in recoil between practice ammo with only 320 ft lbs energy, but for such powerful SD ammo, it is controllable and you can get back on target fast.

I have a Shield 40, and use CorBon 135gr JHP with 1325 fps and 526 ft lbs energy. The recoil on it feels about the same as the recoil on my 9mm LC9. This is due to the Shield being 3 ounces heavier and the bore axis on the Shield is 3/16 inch lower than that of the LC9. A lower bore axis results in less felt recoil.



I would disagree about this post. Testing shows a drop off in fps when you drop down in barrel length. In that case the shorter barrel would benefit from more powerful ammo, to offset the performance loss from the shorter barrel. I want to know that I am using the best SD ammunition, with the most stopping power. This is as long as I have practiced with that ammo, and know I can shoot well with it.

The S&W website FAQ states: "Use only commercially manufactured ammunition with internal ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI)."

CorBon is manufactured to SAMMI standards. And no I don't work for or own any stock in CorBon. Several years ago I just Googled "best SD ammo", and CorBon came very highly rated in a lot of reviews.

Bob
Yep, a few years ago Corbon had its day on top of the charts and public opinion. I think the concern now is Corbon isn't using bonded bullets (they do offer an all-copper alternative though), so now everyone is on the Speer/Ranger/Critical Duty bandwagon of bullets that reduce jacket separation during impact and expansion.

Corbon's more recent offering, the Powerball, is a step in the wrong direction, I feel. The school of faster, quick energy transfer (think Glaser) ammo is not as proven as the hard-hitting, properly expanded bullet that retains most of its weight throughout impact.

Personally, I wouldn't want to get hit with any of them, however my preference is to carry something that can go through a car door and still do the job.

Also, if ever confronted with a wild dog or even in a worst case scenario, a mountain lion (they have caught them within the city limits of where I live), I would definitely want the bonded bullet, not the fast, light stuff.
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:04 PM
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I live in a condo. Every direction has people. I definately don't want something that can penetrate a car door. Right now my shield has 124 gr standard gold dot. Excessive penetration is not my idea of an ideal self defense round. LE has to take on multiple bad guys under a lot of conditions. They run toward the danger. We with ccw shouldn't. Look at that fiasco at the empire state building a few days ago. All the collateral damage to innocent people. That is unacceptable.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:48 PM
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I was shooting next to a guy (at a range) and he was using 9mm gold dot 124 +p ammo in his shield.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:01 PM
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I am a retired LEO. I could not believe how many innocent bystanders were hit by police fire. I was trained to be sure of my target before pulling the trigger. That also meant to be aware of other nearby bystanders in the area or beyond. Sure the bad guy had a gun. And maybe he pointed at one of the officers. All reports state he did not fire or have time to fire. But to unleash a barrage of bullets with so many people around was careless. Sure the police were making a split second decision. Sure they were firing on adrenaline. But somewhere they should have used common sense. Thankfully none of the innocent bystanders were killed or seriously injured.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:58 PM
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IMO, the New York shooting incident shows that the average LEO operating in an anti-gun municipality will be less able with their weapons, due to less off the clock training or interest in their firearms. That was a terrible showing of police capability.

If the suspect is actively shooting people with others in the background, then you have to close the distance on them and make shots that count. Definitely shouldn't shoot at a fleeing suspect in a crowd. That whole incident was just not handled right.

Greybeard43:

For an everyday concealable carry handgun, I just don't think one can be "overpowered." All handgun rounds from .25 to .45 are questionable stoppers, so my philosophy is to carry the most capable ammo available. Who would you really ever need to shoot? Most likely only someone who is hopped up on drugs or adrenaline. Someone that would need a serious thump to neutralize.

For home defense inside a condo, however, you might consider a short barrel 12 or 20 gauge loaded with #4 Buckshot. Pretty much any 9mm will penetrate several layers of drywall.

My 2 cents.
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Old 08-28-2012, 01:29 AM
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I was taught to get low and shoot high if possible. That is the philosophy I will use if I ever have a home defense situation in my condo since I live on an upper level.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:02 AM
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I am getting ready to buy some Speer Gold Dots for my Shield 9mm. I have a choice between a box of 50 of the 124gr or 124gr+p (could probably get the 147gr too box of 50) or a box of 20 124gr+p short barrel for a matter of a few dollars difference.

From reading this post, it seems like there is only a slight difference in the standard versus short barrel ammo. If you had a choice, would you buy a box of 50 rounds of the stand pressure gold dots (124gr or 124+p or even 147gr) or a box of 20 124+p short barrel gold dots if the box of 50 were about $7-$8 more than the box of 20?
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