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Old 03-03-2013, 01:45 AM
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Default 4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2

What are the differences in these three versions?
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:19 AM
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This thread 4506-1 (R4) "dash 3" may answer a lot of your questions. 18DAI is I believe, our resident expert on 4506's and hopefully will see this thread.

I recently came across one of the (R4) Dash 3's but alas, didn't have the funds available to make it mine.

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Old 03-04-2013, 12:17 PM
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I'm no expert, but I have extensive experience with the 4516's, so I'll try to help.

The no dash 4516 had a stepped frame, dual recoil springs, thinner slide with a rib along the top and flash chromed hammer and trigger. It is the lightest in weight of the 4516's. The Smith & Wesson rollmarks were twards the muzzle with the "four line" aft of it on the slide.

There reportedly were slide inertia problems resulting in feeding problems and also magazine issues. The original follower IIRC was problematic.

Many 4516 no dash owners report no issues at all with their guns and I believe them. But, there evidently were some problems with SOME 4516 no dash guns as S&W did some design changes.

The 4516-1 eliminated the step in the frame and beefed up the slide too. The step along the top of the slide was eliminated as well. Spurless hammer and trigger still flash chromed. Early versions had the rollmarks similar to the no dash but later production centered them on the slide and eliminated the "four line". The recoil spring was changed to a single unit. Magazines were modified with new followers and IIRC springs as well. The magazines were etched with an advisory "For use only in 4516-1".

Reportedly, there were still feed issues with SOME 4516-1's. Mostly well used examples in LE service were where problems were reported. Whether this was a design problem or user problem is up for debate, IMO. In any case, 4516-1 production dwindled and then stopped. I can't recall the year..........1992???

I think it is only fair to point out here, that while MANY 4516-1 owners have pistols which function perfectly, right out of the box, there are quite a few who report various feed problems. Not dozens or of epidemic proportions, but enough reports to warrant some concern. Some of those sent their 4516-1's back to S&W for examination and repair. They report that S&W modified their 4516-1's in the following manner. The guide rod was changed to the later, reduced diameter, 4516-2 version. A washer style retainer was installed in the guide rod tunnel of the slide and the dual recoil spring setup, ala 4516-2, was also installed. These owners report that upon return from S&W, their 4516-1's feeding issues were eliminated.

After a brief hiatus and a redesign of the recoil system the 4516 model was, according to the S&W flyer/announcement; "Back by popular demand" in the 4516-2 variant. The changes included the previously mentioned new guide rod and dual recoil springs, a redesigned frame with longer tang and blue/black forged hammer and trigger (Some very late production 4516-2 have black MIM hammer and trigger). I don't recall positively as I sometimes have oldtimers, but I think the larger barrel hood and other 3rd gen 45 barrel modifications were also incorporated into the 4516-2. Perhaps someone here can confirm or correct that. This was around 1994/1995 IIRC. Also at around this time the last revision of the magazines occured with the incorporation of the black followers.

Incorporating all of the design enhancements and none of the later cost cutting measures (except for those examples having MIM hammers and triggers) the 4516-2 were, and evidently remain, the most popular of the 4516 series.

After the end of the 4516-2 line......1999????? there was one more variant. Some LE really liked the 4516 for their plain clothes and detective divisions. S&W would make runs of certain models for LE. Thus the 4516-3. Visually, the 4516-3 is only discernable from a 4516-2 by virtue of its markings. The rollmarks are gone and replaced by laser etching. The slide has "Smith & Wesson" with the famous logo laser etched on the slide. The frame is laser etched "MOD 4516" above the trigger guard along with a laser etched serial number. There is no "dash number" after the "MOD 4516" marking. This creates some confusion as folks mistake these last 4516's for no dash models. The 4516-3 does incorporate the MIM hammer and trigger, dual recoil spring setup, MIM mag catch (replace this with a steel part if you use this gun for serious purpose as mine failed) and larger barrel hood. The 4516-3 is known at S&W as a 4516 R4, or revision 4.

If you have the original box, up on the right side you will see and "03" and "SPECIAL ORDER" on the label. This almost always confirms an LE overun after the end of "official" production. Of course the only way to know for sure is a call to customer service or a Jinks letter.

For all intents and purposes, the 4516-3 is a laser etched 4516-2. So there you have it. A thumbnail 4516 history as near as I've been able to discover over the last twenty years.

Personally, I became enamored by the 4516 with a no dash model. It was a confiscated piece that was present on a "range day". Range day was a once or twice a year thing at my old agency where we used confiscted guns to "destroy" confiscated ammunition. And yes, we got paid to do it.

I picked the 4516 no dash out of a milk crate full of guns. I still recall one of the guns above it was a very beat up, peeling nickel Python with hideous lime green plastic grips. Anyways, it only had the one mag in it. I was searching for a compact 45 at the time as the writing was on the wall that our revolvers were going away for good. They would no longer authorize them so we better find a semi auto to use.

I fired around 500 rounds through that filthy, neglected 4516 no dash that day, IIRC. There was no lube at all on it when I started. After 200 or 300 rounds I remember the slide was getting slow. So I hosed it down with Breakfree and went on to shoot it the rest of the afternoon.

This gun was far more accurate than any of the "popular compact 45's" of the time. None of them were as reliable. All of them choked. Not the 4516 though. I wondered why I'd never heard about the 4516. I promptly called around and found a NIB 4516-3 which I proceeded to use for the next several years. A reliable accurate little tack driver. One of my never sell guns. I only retired it when I aquired the 4513TSW's. I still shoot it from time to time though. Sweet 45.

Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI
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Last edited by 18DAI; 08-12-2013 at 01:14 PM. Reason: To correct info
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:08 PM
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Reading is fundamental. Sorry OP, I thought you meant 4506.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:09 AM
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Default Last 4516s?

When were the last 4516s of any variant made?

Was there anything after the final 4516-3s?
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:23 PM
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4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2 4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2 4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2 4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2 4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2  
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I would guess that the last 4516's were made somewhere between 2004 and 2006.

I say that because, IIRC, my 4516-3 was made in 2004. Supposedly, the last 3rd gen pistols were "discontinued" in 2006. Although we know that some 3rd gen models are still being produced at the S&W Houlton ME facility. Regards 18DAI
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:24 PM
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I pre-ordered a 4516 no dash when the word first came out that S&W was going to be marketing them. My duty weapon at the time was a 645. I bought one of the first 4516s. I never had an issue of any kind with it. It fed everything I put in it and was accurate. I kept it until we stopped issuing the 645/4506 guns.

I later ran across a 4516-1. Again, no problems to report. I wish I had it back. Later, I found a 4516-2. Same story; traded it away for something else I wanted to try out. Again, no problems of any kind, and I wish I could get it back, too.
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:45 PM
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Timely Thread...... Thanks for all the information guys.....This stuff really does help the rest of us.....Zebulon
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:29 PM
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Excellent discourse on the 4516. You did a similar one on the 4506 and Lee per my request and I am sure others requests has filed it under Notable Threads in the Semi Auto handgun Section under 3rd Gen semi autos.
This one should go there as well.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:33 PM
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Very interesting write up 18, thanks.

I can only add that of the four no dashes I've owned, all of them had the dual recoil spring set ups. All were flawless. And of course I cleverly sold them all over the years. *sigh*

I take solace in my Shorty 45s though.


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Old 06-26-2013, 12:27 PM
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Very interesting Catshooter! Did you notice whether they had "bushings" installed in the recoil spring tunnel?

I would suspect that the previous owners perhaps experienced reliability issues and sent them back to S&W.

I've only handled/examined one 4516 no dash, the one at the range day. To the best of my recollection it had a single recoil spring. But my oldtimers is firing up on me today.

mbliss57, thanks for the kind words. I'm no expert. Just a shooter. Best regards, 18DAI
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:04 PM
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18, the two no dash 4516's I have experience with did have the bushing press fitted in the recoil spring tunnel, however I am not sure this was a retrofit. I am basing this on the fact that the S&W pistol parts list for the 4516 dated 09 lists the two recoil springs and recoil spring guide for all dashes of the 4516 except for the -1. I suspect that very early on the 4516 went to a two recoil spring set up and most if not all shipped with this set up. The bushing is not on the parts list though and the bushing, guide and springs will work in a -1 and a -1 spring and guide will work in a no dash with bushing removed.

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Old 06-26-2013, 02:24 PM
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Thanks for the info Mack!!

Perhaps I am mistaken in my recollection of the single recoil spring in the no dash that I shot.............

My ex wife says I'm usually wrong.

Any other 4516 no dash owners out there have a single or dual recoil spring in their gun? Regards 18DAI
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:33 PM
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You know 18 I can a good oldtimers going on too, but it sure seems to me that none of my four had bushings. But I could be all wet.


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Old 06-28-2013, 12:02 AM
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Love both of mine..-1 &-2. Lot of firepower in a small package!
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:25 PM
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I had the opportunity to shoot my 4516-3 this past weekend. I had stored it over a year ago as I had been carrying its 4513TSW cousin instead.

The 4513TSW is slightly lighter weight and has the same reliability as all of the compact 3rd gen 45's. I shot my 4516-3 alongside my early, or original version, 6-round mag 4513TSW.

I found that it is much easier, for me, to get fast accurate hits using the 4516. The slight additional weight making the follow ups a little bit quicker and much more accurate. I shot both at 15 yards using 230 grain WWB.

Shooting controlled pairs at a 3X5 index card I was able to keep all the rounds on the index card using the 4516. I only kept 4 out of 6 on the card using the 4513TSW. This was done with 6 rounds loaded, lay the gun on the table, pick it up and fire a controlled pair as fast as possible, go low ready, bring the gun up in a snap sight picture and fire two more rounds.

The 4516-3 was wearing its factory Xenoy grips and the 4513TSW a pair of rubber Hogue grips that Big Dog was kind enough to cut to fit my 4513TSW's cut out grip frame.

I may have to reconsider keeping the 4516-3 parked. It was a joy to shoot. I had two groups at 15 yards that my shooting partner measured at under 2 inches.

Ideally, I'd like to find a 4516 no dash with an action job, Novak low mount night sights and Wolfe +10% recoil and mag springs. That would be a pretty neat set up, for me.

One other thing I noticed. When I broke down my 4516-3 for cleaning it has the last revision of the guide rod. It is the one piece, not staked. I had not noticed that before. Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: I don't know how that link in the word "sight" got there. I didn't do that.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:50 PM
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Sounds like a good time at the range, JW. Its funny that you mention that link using the word sight. I first noticed it today in a couple of other posts.

*And Now In This One!*
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:45 PM
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Thumbs up 4516-2 Convert!

Due to the comments in threads like this, I, too, have joined the ranks of 3rd Gen owner of a 4516-2. I blindly bought one off of GunBroker, and have never regretted it. As a occasional user of a 45 Auto, This piece is one that I regard as a "out of my cold hand" will it leave my possession! Knowledgeable users (18DAI) that give knowledgeable info in a forum such as this is exactly why this piece is important to me!

Side note to Moderator: I have noticed the "sight" link for some time, now, also. Possibly, since the word "sight" is a tagged key word, the link is associated to the tag.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:12 PM
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I have a 4516-2 on the way, I can only hope it's as reliable and accurate as my 4506-1 that I've had since new. This baby will be a regular carry piece for me. Awesome guns and very underrated.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:11 PM
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I needed to amend my first post in this thread. Catshooter was absolutley right about the original 4516 no dash having DUAL recoil springs. Thanks Catshooter!

I ran into an old aquaintance at the range this weekend who use to run a local gunshop back in the day. They were a S&W dealer. He saw my 4516-3 and we started talking about the 4516 model. He recalled that the initial 4516 no dash slide was "2 ounces too light to insure reliable function." He claimed to have gotten this info from a S&W employee back in the day when he had a couple of 4516 no dash returned to the factory due to FTF problems.

He also said that he "couldn't understand why they made the slide two ounces heavier on the 4516-1 but removed the dual recoil spring set up." He claimed to have sent a few 4516-1's back for service for failures to feed as well. He couldn't remember if they were given the dual recoil spring set up to cure the functioning issues. "I guess they fixed them because the customers didn't bring them back a second time."

I told him that all of my experience with the 4516 no dash was very positive. I told him about shooting a filthy, bone dry example with terrible quality ammo. He surmised that due to "tolerance stacking" during manufacturing at S&W that "there was always going to be examples of a problamatic model which don't exhibit the problem or problems when properly maintained and lubed. And then there is always going to be a few examples which will run regardless of what you do to them. How do you think Kimber stays in business 18? Then you have all the guns of that model made in between the two extremes which have variable performance due to tolerance stacking."

I found his recollections interesting and thought I'd post them here in this thread. I will edit my first post and correct the wrong information. Sucks to get old timers disease. Regards 18DAI
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:57 AM
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Glad I could help 18, even if only a little. We carry on as best we can.


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Old 08-17-2013, 08:44 PM
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I just got a used 4516 (no dash) and it has dual springs. I don't know if this was original or changed. It came with the box and EVERYTHING original including the original receipt. I cleaned it up (not that it needed it .... the man bought it new then had a stroke and his surviving wife sold it to me after it had reportedly sat in a safe for about 15 years) and put it back together. It shoots pretty much to point of aim at 15 and 25 yards. I had zero malfunctions .... So far I like it. I bought it on a whim, but it seems to compliment my 5906 very nicely.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:35 AM
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18,

Wouldn't a 4516 no dash built up by the PC just the way they make the Shorty 45 be the cat's pjs? All steel would soften the push. Man, I would love one like that.


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Old 08-21-2013, 09:05 AM
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Hi Catshooter,

A PC 4516 would be SWEET! Briley bushing and a match grade barrel. I don't know if you recall, but there WAS a PC 4516 made. The product code is in the SCSW, although no other mention is made of the gun. No details on what features it may have included either.

I became aware of the PC 4516 some years ago when a local S&W collector saw my 4516-3 in my holster at the courthouse. He inquired as to whether that was a Performance Center 4516. I asked him if he meant the PC Shorty 45. He replied no. He told me that in 1996 or 1997 the PC had made a 4516 and there was an article in a gunrag featuring that gun.

I posted here asking about it and member 45 CQB knew an instructor who worked for Glock who had one. She had previously been employed at S&W and purchased it there before leaving.

45 CQB also recalled a for sale ad in Shotgun news for a PC 4516. He tried running down the instructor to see if she could provide pics and details. As I recall he was unsucessful and the thread died.

Since SmithNut is back perhaps he knows or has heard of this gun.

Funny, yesterday my local dealer left me a voicemail seeing if I was interested in a LNIB 4516-2. Perhaps this is a sign. Regards 18DAI

It was a sign. It was like new. Original box and docs with two mags. I bought it. Now I have a dash 2 and a dash 3. Serial prefix VAL Anyone have the SCSW handy for a birthday lookup?
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:33 AM
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I went home last night and pulled out the SCSW. In the list of Performance Center production codes and the models they correspond to is the following.

Product code - 170112 4516 7sh 3 1/2 GB DA SS (Pcct)

The 3 1/2 I find interesting. Unless it is a misprint that indicates the PC 4516 had a barrel length 1/4" shorter than the standard production models.

I've no idea what the "GB" and "(Pcct)" mean. Perhaps one of the experts will descend from Mount Springfield and enlighten the great unwashed with a decode and some details on this unicorn. Regards 18DAI
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:49 PM
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I bought a 4516 no dash when they first came out (Don't remember the year, but it was quite a while back) carried it for a duty weapon for several years and never had any problems with it. I still have it.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:22 PM
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Can the duel spring setup with the slim rod of the 4516-2 just be dropped right into the 4516-1 without other changes?
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:39 PM
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Can the duel spring setup with the slim rod of the 4516-2 just be dropped right into the 4516-1 without other changes?
Sorry, Tacotime. Unfortunately the answer is: No.
A special "bushing" or sleeve is pressed into the recoil spring tunnel to reduce the diameter of the hole in the dust cover the guide rod protrudes through. The outer spring of the dual spring set-up is the same diameter as the single spring so the tunnel remains the same.
Does this help?
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:57 PM
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Yes, I was about to edit the post to say I forgot about the special sleeve. I don't suppose S&W will sell the sleeve... but I can't find a parts list to verify that is it not offered.

Curious though, other than the sleeve, does the duel spring/rod drop right in to the 4516-1?

Thanks.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:09 PM
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Yes, I was about to edit the post to say I forgot about the special sleeve. I don't suppose S&W will sell the sleeve... but I can't find a parts list to verify that is it not offered.

Curious though, other than the sleeve, does the duel spring/rod drop right in to the 4516-1?

Thanks.
Yes.
I have not seen a part number listed anywhere for the bushing/sleeve.
I do think that a properly sized stainless steel washer would accomplish the same thing.
John
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacotime View Post

Curious though, other than the sleeve, does the duel spring/rod drop right in to the 4516-1?

Thanks.
Well, here's a pic of the factory reducing bushing. From what I understand from speaking with S&W, there is NO part number for this. It was made solely to address functioning issues under warranty on certain dash-1 guns. Shouldn't be to difficult to have one made. Any competent machinist would be able to make one of these.


The nested spring setup will fit in a dash-1 gun. however, I'd hesitate to run the nested spring setup in a dash-1 without this bushing or some equivelant. The hole in the spring tunnel that accommodates the guiderod measures about 0.295". A new factory inner spring is about 0.310" or so. I would be concerned that under recoil forces & compression part of the inner spring could work it's way into the clearance left by the 0.236" guiderod in that big 0.290" hole and tie up the gun.

Now If you already have the slim 0.236" guiderod, you can either have a bushing made up or and use the nested springs or, skip the bushing and run a flatwire spring like I do.

I made a special guiderod for mine but it does run reliably with the 0.236 guiderod since the flatwire also does duty as the aforementioned bushing to keep everything aligned.

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Old 10-23-2013, 09:55 AM
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Good info, thanks. I may need to make the swap to the -2 rod/spacer. Pulled out the old 4516-1 and it did fail to feed one of 10 or 15 rounds - first time I recall it doing so.

So Bill, what makes up your special guide rod? I assume it is not the factory 4516-2 rod.

And is that flat spring a part for the 4516, or just a suitable one you found?

I wonder if I could I get a 4516-2 rod and use such a flat spring with no end bushing?
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacotime View Post
So Bill, what makes up your special guide rod? I assume it is not the factory 4516-2 rod.
Nope it's a 4006CHP guiderod #903370000 turned down to a quarter inch diameter and shortened to fit and polished.

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And is that flat spring a part for the 4516, or just a suitable one you found?
ISMI makes these for midsize Glocks. They fit perfectly in a 4516. Part numbers GLC-18 and GLC-20 for 18lb and 20lb respectively.

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I wonder if I could I get a 4516-2 rod and use such a flat spring with no end bushing?
Yup, It works.

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Old 10-30-2013, 07:11 PM
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I just got around to reading this thread on one of my all time favorites and still recall not too many moons back having feeding problems with my -1 and after several posts, BMCM came up with the solution to my problem that still works today and I remain in his debt for instructing me about the possibility I had my recoil spring backwards and he was right. Nary a problem since I fixed the error of my ways.

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Old 10-30-2013, 11:08 PM
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I did not realize a recoil spring could be put in backwards or there was a correct orientation. Can you elaborate on the correct position?
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:42 AM
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I had bought a new Wolff recoil spring because I didn't know how old the other one was. In installing it, I put the larger end over the rod...wrong thing to do. The small end goes on first. It was creating FTF problems until I was enlightened on the proper way it goes on. It's tighter but it sure works better!!
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Old 10-31-2013, 01:01 PM
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My dealer finally found me a LNIB 4516 no dash today. He says it still has the inspectors numbered stickers on the frame. He says the guy who sold it to him claims unfired since the factory. My dealer says it may very well be true.

I intend to see if the negatives I've heard and read about the much maligned 4516 no dash have any basis in fact. I'll post here about the pistol once I've had a chance to wring it out.

So, layaway. Again. Ramen noodles for lunch from now till right around Christmas. Again. I'm gun poor. Again.

Ramen noodles aren't that bad with a little bit of Tabasco though. Regards 18DAI
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Old 10-31-2013, 01:10 PM
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I can never find something like that, although I did locate a Remington 700 BDL in .222 recently that had been a safe queen since the early 90's and it too had never been fired so, I guess I ought to consider myself lucky. I still dream of finding a 4506 NIB.
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Old 10-31-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColColt View Post
I had bought a new Wolff recoil spring because I didn't know how old the other one was. In installing it, I put the larger end over the rod...wrong thing to do. The small end goes on first. It was creating FTF problems until I was enlightened on the proper way it goes on. It's tighter but it sure works better!!
Great, I'll have to pay closer attention when swapping recoil springs on new acquisitions. I have a new factory spring for my 4516-1 on the bench and will measure the diameter of both ends tonight.

Update: I just checked my -1 spring and my flat wire and they have the same diameter on both ends. Maybe it's a particular relative to Wolff.
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Old 10-31-2013, 01:49 PM
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18DAI,

Try Sriracha hot chili sauce by Huy Fong Foods, Inc.




Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
My dealer finally found me a LNIB 4516 no dash today. He says it still has the inspectors numbered stickers on the frame. He says the guy who sold it to him claims unfired since the factory. My dealer says it may very well be true.

I intend to see if the negatives I've heard and read about the much maligned 4516 no dash have any basis in fact. I'll post here about the pistol once I've had a chance to wring it out.

So, layaway. Again. Ramen noodles for lunch from now till right around Christmas. Again. I'm gun poor. Again.

Ramen noodles aren't that bad with a little bit of Tabasco though. Regards 18DAI

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Old 12-17-2013, 12:47 PM
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Wanted to add this link to another thread showing the feed ramp differences in the barrels. Thanks, Daniel.

S&W 4596....
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:51 PM
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And can someone clarify for me. Does the -1 and -2 slides have the aforementioned washer at the end of the slide to hold the smaller diameter guide rod or was that only for the -1 models?

And another question, does someone have a picture of the feed ramp end of a barrel to a -2 model that they can post next to a no dash or -1 barrel? Or at least explain the differences and similarities.

I may end up shooting some pics of some of the slides I have left and see if I can show examples of the differences here in this thread. Thanks again.
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:20 PM
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You're referring to this thing here...


You'll only see that on a no-dash or dash1 gun. The others (-2 & -3) came from the get go with the skinny guiderod & nested springs.

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Old 12-17-2013, 02:23 PM
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Bill,
So the hole where the guide rod sits will look just as the one in the picture does without the bushing?
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:58 PM
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Yes, a dash1 gun that has NOT been modified will have a single recoil spring on a .290" diameter guiderod. Same as the one in that picture sans bushing.

The slides on the other guns, no-dash, dash2, & dash3 were manufactured with a smaller hole in the tunnel to accomodate the .236" guiderod and dual nested springs.

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Old 12-17-2013, 03:43 PM
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Okay, I think it is making more sense. The only 45 cap slides I have left are the no dash variety with the rib along the top. They are all a little different with what appears to be that same washer in two of them (ones sits flush to the end of the slide and one sits a smidgen back) and then I have one with no bushing. From the comments above I was thinking there shouldn't be a bushing at all. The slide I have right now on e-bay is either a -1 or -2 but not sure. It does not have a bushing in the hole where the guide rod sits.
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Old 12-17-2013, 04:18 PM
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Barrel comparison shots....

4516 vs 4516-1
Note the difference in feedramp geometry & width. Also note the difference in width of the barrel camming lugs.
You should also be aware that due to the width of the camming lugs, a no-dash barrel will only fit in a no-dash frame.


4516-1 vs 4516-2
Here again there's a difference in feedramp geometry. Especially take note of the difference in width of the barrel hoods.
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Old 12-17-2013, 05:34 PM
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Where does my 457 fall into the scheme of things? Is it a less refined -3?
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:02 PM
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Well, a 457 uses the same barrel as a dash2 if that's any indication. pn:236950000

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Old 12-17-2013, 08:14 PM
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Well, a 457 uses the same barrel as a dash2 if that's any indication. pn:236950000

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