Ironbark
I've looked at some of the smaller 9mm's, including the Kimber Solo which I intended to buy...prior to testing it. The size and controls were perfect, and even though it's a "pricey" gun I felt I just had to have one..again, prior to testing it. Even when Kimber works out the reliability issues I still won't purchase it. Why? Because I am convinced that, like most "micro 9mm's" the gun just has too much power to be contained and controlled in such a small package. The Smith & Wesson Shield is about as small as I feel a 9mm can be made without sacrificing "recoil absorbing weight", and grip size (and thereby, some shot control)..and it is definitelly NOT a pocket carry pistol. So now we're back to "selective carrying".
I remain convinced that at self-defense distances a few well placed shots from a good .380 will give MOST attackers pause, and, depending on shot placement...even end their life.
Calibre is NOT king! I read a story about a cop who was attacked by a guy during a traffic stop. The guy has the cop on the ground and thecop is screaming for help. A armed citizen came to his aid, drew his weapon and ordered the guy to back off. When he didn't, the citizen put (5) rounds of .40 S&W in his chest at less than 12 feet...and the guy was STILL beating the cop!!! Finally, the citizen gave him one to the head, killing him. That guy represented to 10% that are no respecters of calibre, and there aren't many like that out there. IMHO

Agree with you Protected One,

There certainly is no I win solution. That's why my argument is stack the odds in your favour as much as possible.

IB

I agree. If you can carry a bigger round and shoot a bigger round then I believe it is an advantage to do so. That's where I was going with the bear attack / choose your weapon scenario....

But if you are great with a smaller gun, or it's all you can hide well, then by golly that's the one to carry!

My real peeve is the guys that only own a .32 or .25 and then tell everyone that it is a real potent man-stopper and all anyone really needs to carry... "Why with a good brain shot I can take down any attacker and all I ever train to do is consistent brain shots, I could never miss!"

Yeah, whatever.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

I'm sure you've all seen the video of the 71 yr old man in Florida who foiled a armed robbery attempt by two thugs...with his Taurus .380?

Kinda warms your heart, doesn't it?

Never had any of the plastic wonder .380's. The first handgun I bought was a 1934 Beretta .380 in 1963. Don't have that one anymore.

The second .380 I bought years later was a steel frame Colt Mustang. It was OK but heavy for size.

This SIG P230 is the only other .380 I've owned. Got it and seven boxes of ammo as "boot" when trading a S&W revolver for a Colt revolver.

I probably wouldn't have bought it but I've now become attached to it as it is such a good and accurate shooter. I carry it some but usually in an ankle holster as a BUG.

It is a keeper...full of Gold Dots

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C & L

There is a relativelly new ammo manufacturer in Arizona named HPR. Anyone shot any of their .380 rounds?

To all Bodyguard owners. You may want o consider getting a Pachmyer grip for your .380. Mine came yesterday ($15 incl shp on ebay) and it gives the grip a better size, making it more comfortable in the hand, and though I haven't shot with it yet I'm expecting improved accuracy.

Been doing the "pocket gun thing" long enough to have owned a KelTec .32 when they first came out then trading it up when KelTec came out with the 3AT. I later sold it when I convinced myself I would carry a 9mm or .38 or nothing at all.

A couple years ago I got a Ruger LCP because I realized how often I carried nothing at all.

A .38 in my jeans or jacket pocket? Yes. Better.
A 9mm or .45 IWB or OWB? Yes. Better.
No gun on me? No. A .380 is better.

Makes sense to me

Pictures!!!! Does it add a lot of bulk?

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Kirk / Spock 2020

That's exactly my feelings. I have a friend whose motto is "anyone worth shooting is worth shooting with a .45". Yet how many time do I ask him if he' has it on him...and the answer is - "No". My .380 is always in my pocket.

It adds a little width which helps fill the palm, but not enough to affect pocket carry, and certainly not bulky.

My BG380 is always on me and I love it. Easy to put in pocket getting out of my vehicle. And easy to take out. Getting in my vehicle. Just got the xds. 45 will do some experimenting with it

For those who wonder about (or question) to defensive effectiveness of the .380:
Some years ago, the brother of a law enforcement friend was a narcotics officer for a state agency. In a “buy-bust” deal, he found himself inside a car with a nasty dealer who was either suspicious or planning to make it a “take” operation — he would shoot the agent, and take the buy money from his body.

As things went from bad to red alert in micro-seconds, the bad guy pulled a handgun to shoot the agent, but the steering wheel deflected his hand as he tried to bring it to bear on the cop in the passenger side of the car.

The agent jerked his own little .380 auto, which had been stuck in the small of his back, and got off the first couple of shots — the most important ones, as it turned out.

It must have been noisy inside that car, even with the passenger door partially opened, and it certainly was up close and personal. Shooting at someone the width of a car seat away is no one’s idea of the optimum distance from the bad guy in a gunfight. But the .380 did its job, and the agent lived to tell of the incident. The bad guy didn’t make it.

Most experts have always considered the .380 Auto to be at the lowest end of the spectrum for personal self-defense. Tell that to the dealer, and countless other miscreants that have been sent to their just rewards by the small-caliber semiautomatics. Because of their size and moderate recoil, the caliber has become a popular civilian self-defense round for the same reasons cops like them. They hide well, and they work

If we use that yardstick, the .22 is an extremely effective self defense caliber because of the number of people that have been killed with it.

I'll still prefer a bigger heavier round.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

I own and carry a Beretta Model 34, made in 1936! Superb pistol, well made and always goes bang! Don't carry it much in the summer since it is an all steel pistol and my Florida "elastic waist shorts, t shirt and flip flops make kinda hard to conceal!"

Bottom line is you have to make a decision, carry or not.

Sometimes a small firearm is all that you can carry. Firearms aren't the end all. I feel there are three things that contribute to defending oneself properly.

1. First is your brain. You need to keep situational awareness. Remove yourself from potentially bad situations before they happen. Do not frequent and or travel in high risk areas, and think before you act. Make smart quick decisions. Keep yourself alert and out of harms way. If you have to go into high crime areas, maybe a j-frame or pocket .380 is not a good weapon selection. Dress to your situation.

2. Second is your body. You need to be physically fit and train your body as well as you train with your firearm. You may need to fend off an attacker before you can draw and defend yourself. You will more than likely have to be reactive unlike law enforcement and military which is proactive. Go take a few force on force classes to get a real wakeup call about how proper grip, stance, and sight picture may not always be possible. You may actually need to use those eyes, legs, lungs, and heart to move while shooting, and even those muscles to grapple and defend as you draw and fire.

3. Finally, it comes to the defensive weapon. There are three criteria I use for me.

1. Access. Can I carry it concealed in my attire in the environment? Can I have access to it at all times or will I have to leave it locked in a building or a car? I need to have access to it at all times. I am not going to bring my 4" model 19 on me to the beach, nor am I going to bring my keltec .380 with me to the city.

2. Proficiency. Can I shoot this weapon accurately in the following situation: One handed, on the move, at human sized targets. If I cannot, it can be a 50 caliber and be worthless to me. I train with what I carry and I carry what I can train with accurately.

3. Penetration. I am not as concerned about expansion as I am about being able to make deep holes in things. Does the caliber/bullet I am carrying work reliably in my weapon and meet certain terminal ballistics requirements. Namely for me, the 12" penetration through 4 layer denim and ballistic gel. I also factor in seasons. Luckily I live in a area that goes from warm to hot to oh my god hot back to warm again. But if I lived in a cold climate, I would have to reassess my selections based upon multiple thick layers of clothing.

After I have satisfied all of those requirements, then I make my selections. So sum up a long drawn out answer for a short question, I feel that in my climate , my .380 chronoing 90 grain buffalo bore speer gold dots at 1080FPS is more than adequate in certain situations. of course not all.

eb07

Your comments could be used to settle the "best calibre" question for all time...but we know it won't! LOL
I'm so glad you added the physical fitness aspect because that is so important. People should learn to handle at least one unarmed attacker without the need to use a firearm (IMHO).

I do however disagree with you on the penetration issue. Even a .380, with premium loads (gold dot, PDX1, or Hornady to name a few) and well placed shots will get good/damaging penetration - even through bone... at self defense distances. Manufacturers ballistic charts show 14+ inches of penetration for 9mm, .40, and .45 cal rounds. At self-defense distances, I would be worried about "over penetration" potentially injuring an unintended target. And if the perp is 30 yards away then why not just run away from the situation rather than start shooting? (UNLESS they're shooting at me)

Protected One:

Do you own a small 9mm also?

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Lost Lake

I went to buy a Kimber Solo. Beautiful gun, and I loved the controls. But after trying it out I couldn't bring myself to buy it. Haven't looked at any others yet. I think the smaller 9's are too much power for the packages they're trying to put them into. I understand their thinking because if they come out with a "true" pocket sized 9mm that's reliable and controlable...they'll have themselves a gold mine. I'm 6'-3" and 200lb, so it's not a matter of them being anything but inconvenient to cc all the time. I'm going to look at the S &W Shield (9mm)this weekend.

I have many guns, and yes I have the Bg380. I carry it all the time. I do carry larger caliber when ever I can. As many have said, better with 380 than nothing at all. A lot of the times the BG is my second gun. In the summer it some times is the only gun. I find with practice I can place several rounds if I need to. Hopefully will never need to but better than no gun.

Taurus TCP rides in my pocket daily. Wife keeps the bodyguard.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

The reason I asked was I have this theory....

It seems the guys who staunchly advocate a certain caliber or gun tend to have only that caliber or gun.

I predict when you get a Shield 9mm, you will agree the 9mm is the best round anyone can carry. I think most of the caliber war issue is comprised of this phenomenon.

I'd like to loan you my 4513 for a few weeks to carry.... I think you'd come back with a whole new perspective. It's nicer to shoot than my BG380

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Kirk / Spock 2020

I have 2 pistols in .380, one a Walther PPK/S (Interarms) and the other a Mauser HSC. The HSC feels more like a natural pointer when in my hand but the PPK/S is the more accurate of the 2 pistols for me. Used to carry the PPK/S but not anymore. I carry a S&W 642 now.
Never got involved in some of the newer versions of .380's.
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James

I've got a Colt Mustang and love it

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Jorge

Sunday GunDay - YouTube

Bodyguard 380 at end of video. has a different sound to it but shoots very accurate. Sorry about the AK

Lost Lake
If you lived in Michigan I'd take you up on that offer to carry your 4513 for a bit.
You may be right about those only having one calibre of handgun, I don't know. But I'm pretty certain that even when I get my "Shield" I will STILL be carrying my BG 95% of the time because I don't want to make ANY changes to my wardrobe or how I dress, in order to conceal a gun. The Bodyguard affords me that option. No matter what I'm wearing, be it swim trunks or a fine suit...that .380 is in my pocket!!! A quick "case in point " story: A couple of weeks ago I went to a movie pre-release screening. As we approached the theatre door I noticed they were "wanding" people as they entered. This theatre has NO signs posted saying weapons aren't allowed. Now, I'm thinking -"should I step out of line and take my BG to the car?" I decided to just see what happens, and if they ask me to leave I will. They wanded me...and it didn't even detect the BG!!! I'm sure that If I had even a compact S&W .40, or the Shield etc. I would have gotten caught. I watched the movie in comfort, with a smile on my face.

The ONLY exception I will make is in the winter months, if I have to make a quick run to the store or something, where I WON'T be taking my coat off - I'll likelly have the shield underneath. Also, .40 is my preferred calibre for the Shield, but ammo prices are higher and because I intend to do lots of range shooting I opt for the 9mm instead.

You're right about the BG in one sense though. Puting more than 50 rounds through it in one session is not fun. But if I ever need to use it in defense I won't be coming close to that (smile).
Also, thank you sir, for serving to protect our country!

How much you want for it?!?!

Here's my Kahr P380. Love the little BUGger, shoots like crazy. Always with me when I'm out

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John

I would bet the Shield has less metal in it than the BG. My BG sits in my truck and it's too cold out to go get it and see.

You'll conceal a Shield just fine. Then you'll conceal a 9c just fine. If you're lucky you will find a 3913 for a good price and that will hide just about anywhere. Once you get bit by the third-gen bug your life will be changed and you'll know the pleasure of a really nice S&W semi-auto. After that you will be my competition looking for really nice third gens to hoard...

Reflecting on what I have previously posted, I realize you are completely right. The .380 is an excellent round and highly underrated. Please carry on, no need to try other weapons.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Nice try Lost Lake, but I will be trying out a few 3rd gen's, so your competition may just increase!
Sounds like you have the "shield?" (you hinted at comparring it to you BG in the truck)

I don't want to stand there and be shot with a BB gun, either...but that doesn't make them effective self-defense weapons. I'm not knocking the .380 at all...a gun in the hand is worth all the ones in the safe, when the need arises. I'm just saying that there are lots and lots of things I wouldn't want to be shot with or hit with or stabbed with...in fact, I can't think of a single thing I'd want to be shot, hit, or stabbed with...but that doesn't mean that they are all good choices for self-defense.

I agree...for me. But if someone else finds whatever gun/caliber the solution for their carry needs, then it is the right gun for them, when it comes to carry. Will it suffice when it comes to actually needing it? Who knows...there are too many variables to know the answer. There are many instances of people being shot repeatedly with bigger caliber rounds and surviving...while there are equally instances of people being fatally shot with one .22 round. Of all the variables, shot placement is the key...but in order for that to come into play, you have to have a gun to make the shot.

The ideal intersection of a CCW is where the caliber, size (ability to conceal), weight (willingness to carry), and reliability all meet in one gun...and that is going to vary by each person.

I don't carry a .380. I hope this isn't a slam on anyone. My wife has 4 or 5 380 autos. She is any excellent shot. Her favorite is her Sig P238 and Colt Mustang Pocket Lite. She also shoots a Bersa Thunder, Beretta 85 Cheetah- (My Favorite). Probably because it's bigger.
She can shoot all of my semi autos well up to my 10mm. But she feels most comfortable and confident with a .380 auto. I personally like the conceal-lability. I have a hard time controlling them because of their size.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

I have the Shield. It's okay. I have the M&P compact which is nicer than the Shield. No safety, smoother action. And the M&P full size which really shoots nice. Plenty of real estate to park a weapon light too.

In all I have 7 M&P's. They are kind of fun to collect, and I'm not done yet!

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Which do you carry most (I'm guessing the compact)?

I stand with those who appreciate the Walther PPK and PPK/S. Years ago I had a wartime .32 (or 7.65mm) PPK that I let get away in a moment of temporary insanity, and when I replaced it with a PPK/S about five years ago I moved up to .380; I have heavier hitters that I would rely on for defense against home invaders, but if I were out and about the .380 would be one of the guns I would happily haul around in a pocket. Would a compact 9mm be a better choice? By some standards, sure, as would a small .40 or .45 -- but when you are evaluating adequacy, anything that lies on the high side of sufficient is functionally indistinguishable from anything else in that range.

I know I wouldn't want to be hit by a .380 projectile, and I have to assume that most guys who meant me ill wouldn't want to be either.

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David Wilson

I've had 2 Beretta 84's, and the closed slide version, the Browning BDA. IMHO and experience, they are the best 380s, period. There may be some that equal it, but I haven't seen one yet. I was severely disappointed with both of my two Walther PPK's, and the PPK clones were mostly total junk, and others were OK, at best. Of all three of the Beretta made guns, the only single failure to fire was due to a seriously distorted case that was crushed as the slide tried to shove it into the chamber. I carry my present 84 once in a while, but my present carry gun is my Astra A-75 9mm, another one I have pretty much total confidence in. It's a heavy little gun, (I like that, a lot), and it seems to eat anything and everything I put in it.

Interesting: Ruger has taken their LC9 (9mm) and re-chamberred it for .380...and introduced the LC380! That should make the round feel "real nice" to fire. Think I'll have to try and find one to shoot.

I carry a Bodyguard 380, hot, no safety, Critical Defense in a DeSantis Nemesis. Never had to show it and hope I never have to. I think it would be at least a decent deterrent to aggression.

I have considered the Pachmyer but I also read reports that the grip slips down and interferes with trying to reload the gun with a fresh mag.

Do you have any update regarding this?

.380acp in the boiler room is gonna cause some major discomfortant

I've got five .380s, starting with my prized Colt 1908. My EDC lately has been a Beretta Model 84. I understand the limitations of the caliber, but my confidence in the reliability and accuracy of the pistol in this case trumps caliber size. This, combined with the ability to put a fair number of rounds on target in short order, makes the 84 a winner for me. I also appreciate less weight since getting a pinched nerve or something similar last year.

Neither are S&Ws, but I thought I'd post a comparison photo anyway since we are talking about .380s in general vs. larger calibers and pistols:

Just got done chatting with a high school classmate of mine about the plans for our 40 year reunion. Remembering that he's Chief of Police for a large city police department, I asked him what would he recommend for concealed carry (caliber & manufacturer)?
He said "380 Smith & Wesson Bodyguard. It's what I carry off duty all the time"

THe slipping is very minimal and not something that I believe to be a problem. The grip helps the gun "fill the palm" better. I wish Pachmyer would make it go furhter up the backstrap, to help more with recoil absorbtion.

I've got a Beretta 84F. I bought it as a range gun and because I didn't own a .380. I wanted a .380 that would be fun to shoot and could be shot accurately. This pistol was intended to serve the European police agencies - I think at one time .32 and .380 were their police calibers - and so they weren't made all that small. I believe a Glock 27, which is a .40, is actually smaller. Mine is police surplus, I think.

I have a factory nickeled Beretta 1934, and an FN M1922 that I believe to be one of the 1st 500 manufactured for the Yugoslav gov't in 1922 - 23. The only reason I bought either of them is that they're cool guns. When I carry, it's usually my M640 in .38 Spl.

Larry