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Old 03-19-2013, 12:39 PM
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Question Self Defense Ammo

I wondered if I could get some opinions from the forum on the best ammo and why for self defense. I have a S&W 3913 9mm and have been overwhelmed with all the different info on the internet. Coming to the S&W Forum seemed most appropriate since that is my gun.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:42 PM
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Without conducting exhaustive tests or relying on the opinions of others, which may be invalid, I would carry what the LAPD authorizes for duty use, 9MM Winchester, Ranger, 147 Grain, T Series, (RA9T).

However, be forewarned, neither I nor the LAPD are the last word on the issue. Other departments prefer loads with lighter and faster bullets. A search on this forum will turn up the controversy.

My reason for using this is, should I be forced to use deadly force, it would, presumably, be easier to ward off legal challenges.

You may want to find out what the major Illinois departments use and stick with that.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Self Defense Ammo

I use Federal HST +P and Winchester PDX1 Bonded +P. Id go for the PDX1 +P if I were you. Then again, thats my opinion, not yours. Buy a few different kinds and the one you and your gun perform best with, should be the keeper. Good luck!
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:32 PM
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There's a lot of good ammo out there.

If I were you, I'd use what the local PD uses if my weapon and I shot it well.

I use Gold Dot, but there are others that will outperform it in one area or another and it will outperform in some instances I think.

There is no perfect ammunition for everyone. Buy a name brand you shoot well and rest easy.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:09 PM
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Carrying what the local LEOs carry is always a good idea if it feeds reliably in your gun and you can shoot it accurately. For ammo ballistics comparisons, you can go to Ballistics 101.

Ballistics 101 | All the ballistic charts. Finally, in one place
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:28 PM
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I carry whatever 9mm JHP hits point of aim in my various pistols and works 100% of the time. Unfortunately, I have to have both 115gr +P and standard velocity and both 124gr and 147gr. standard velocity on hand for the various handguns.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Self Defense Ammo

124gr +p Gold dots in LE marked boxes.

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Old 03-19-2013, 11:26 PM
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The wife carries the venerable Federal 9BPLE 115 gr +p+ in her 3913tsw.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:38 PM
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Considering how often police agencies get sued when one of their officers shoots someone (just about every time), I'm not sure that gives you any protection if you have to shoot someone.

From the other threads about this, it seems to come down to 124 or 147gr ammunition. In one of them the consensus was 124gr for barrels shorter then 4", 147gr for barrels 4" or longer.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
Considering how often police agencies get sued when one of their officers shoots someone (just about every time), I'm not sure that gives you any protection if you have to shoot someone.

From the other threads about this, it seems to come down to 124 or 147gr ammunition. In one of them the consensus was 124gr for barrels shorter then 4", 147gr for barrels 4" or longer.
FWIW, I carry 147gr GD's in my 3913. Why? They're on "The List" of approved ammo, GD's of any variety tend to shoot more accurately than other ammo types in my experience, I'm a heavy for caliber proponent, and because I secured 1K of them at decent price before the panic.

As far as the bullet weight vs barrel length thing, I've seen many opinions and arguments going both ways, and while I haven't seen any exhaustive, definitive testing to "prove" either theory, I've seen enough to put me into the opposite camp.

IOW, the testing I've seen and arguments given tell me a heavy bullet loses a lower percentage of it's velocity in a short barrel than a higher velocity/lighter one does. Lighter bullets often rely on their high velocity for penetration whereas a heavier one gets it's penetration from it's greater momentum.

That all being said, I don't believe any handgun round commonly used for self-defense is a one round show stopper, or even demonstrably more effective than another, i.e. 45 vs 9mm, and shot placement is king.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:44 PM
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Speer Gold Dot +P ammo. Love it and it goes bang everytime I pull the trigger.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:01 PM
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I have a 3914 that I recently purchased and I have fired @ 250 rounds so far. 100 of Winchester 9mm 115 white box, 100 of Federal 115, and 50 of Winchester Super X 147.
All fired without issue. I am still in the honeymoon period with the 3914 but when I use proper technique the gun is quite accurate with all of these loads.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:53 PM
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I avoid anything with evil brand names (Black Talons, Zombie Killers, etc.). Otherwise, as long as it functions reliably I'm good to go. Until the state outlaws a particular brand/style of ammo, there's no reason not to use it. My state's laws state the use of a firearm is deadly force, not use of a firearm loaded with ***** is deadly force.
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:55 PM
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[QUOTE=GaryS;137102131]Considering how often police agencies get sued when one of their officers shoots someone (just about every time), I'm not sure that gives you any protection if you have to shoot someone.
QUOTE]

To my knowledge, no LEO or agency around here has ever been sued for a justifiable shoot. Is that a MA thing?
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:28 PM
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When I got my first concealed carry license the instructors were from the local Sheriff's office. I asked them for a recommendation in 9mm. They said that the department had just shifted to Speer Gold Dot and they liked it. I've carried it ever after.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:29 PM
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Default ammunition choices for the handgun

For handguns, the temporary cavity doesn't really do anything(because the projectiles are under the magical ~2000fps mark where temporary cavities+fragmentation can cause bigger permanent wound cavities than the projectile due to ripping and tearing). You're looking at the permanent crush cavity as the only significant means of tissue damage. Energy transfer doesn't mean much. It's the way the energy is transferred through the specific work it does. That is the channel the bullet creates as it physically crushes through tissue.

FMJ vs. Hollowpoint

fmj bullets have a nice round nose up front and don't expand. Essentially, this means they don't crush as much tissue as they pass through. This is because 1) The bullet doesn't expand, so it does work to a smaller frontal area...soo...it does less work
2) It's rounded up front and moves tissue to the side without crushing it, making it's wound channel even smaller.

this means fmj's make a small hole...sooo if they have the same amount of energy, they will make a longer hole to do the same amount of work. This means fmj's will penetrate very far....like....3 feet into tissue far. The small hole is also bad. It means it's a smaller channel for blood to leak out of(takes longer to bleed out) and you're looking at not destroying nearby vessels and tissue that another bullet type would.

Velocity doesn't really come into the picture as a difference between fmj and hp. Both fmj loadings and hp loadings come in a variety of weights and velocities. If you're not going with a hp, wadcutter designs are typically better..they flat surface up front and sharper edges are more prone to crush and bite into tissue. Unexpanded hp's have a similar effect as wadcutters in this regard. Shoot a fmj and shoot a wadcutter or hp at a paper target. look at the neatly punched hole of the wadcutter and hp, then look at the small hole of the fmj with disrupted and pushed aside paper surrounding it. Imagine the same thing happening through very elastic tissue and you'll get an idea of why fmj is a poor defensive loading for any but the worst penetrating cartridges.

Hollow points expand and create a bigger permanent wound cavity. There are different bullet designs, but they pretty much all rely on tissue being forced into the cavity under enough pressure to push outward and expand the nose while crushing the back of the cavity. Some favor expansion while others favor penetration. There's lots of good resources to find what is a good hollow point bullet design.


Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
FirearmsTactical.com - Web Site Index and Navigation Center
Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing
CALIBERS -- FBI Ballistic Test Protocol

When hollowpoints expand, it means to do a similar amount of work, it must penetrate less. The fact that penetration can be controlled through expansion is a big safety feature for people downrange that aren't the threat. Limiting penetration to 12-16" makes hollowpoints much safer for your neighbors and other bystanders. This is still of debateable benefit since statistically, you're pretty likely to miss the threat a few times when trying to get a hit or two on them. Things like bone and clothes can clog the hollowpoint cavity and equalize pressure on the nose of it to keep it from expanding. Newer bullet designs are better at resisting this, but some can still fail to expand. When they don't expand, they still perform similar to a wadcutter and much better than a fmj.



How handguns make someone stop

Above, I already talked about handguns wounding mechanism being the permanent crush cavity. Here I'll talk about what it takes to FORCE a person to involuntarily stop. Psychological reasons aren't considered because it's such a huge variable. Some people will stop because of seeing the gun, some will stop because hearing a boom, some will stop once they realize they've been injured, but some will only stop when their body will not go on any more. It's going to be a channel punched into somone that stops them from a handgun. That permanent crush cavity can do 3 main things...
1) Interrupt electrical signals in the CNS
2) Make a person leak fluids
3) Damage the bone/muscle structure

These each have their merits and weaknesses. The first thing to understand is you're probably going to be incapable of aiming for any particular structure of the body. Most likely, you'll have only gross motor skills and tunnel vision which will prevent you from precise shots and only allow for center mass hits.

1) cns-

If you hit the spinal cord or brain, you've stopped the signal from getting to the body....person instantlyish stops. Problem is, the spinal cord is about thumb wide, down the center of the body, and located towards the rear behind lots of body structures. if the person turns or bends, you've got to now take in to account how the spine shifted in position and what's in front of it. The same thing applies for the brain. a headshot from the side is very likely to just crush through the sinus's or the jaw and miss the brain cavity completely if you don't think 3 dimentionally. Shots to the brain also have to penetrate skull...which does a good job of deflection.

In short, CNS shots are very effective, but very unlikely due to the difficulty of placing an accurate shot on such a small target and the phsyical structures that protect them. If they were easy to destroy, we wouldn't be very successful animals in nature.

2) Making person leak-

We're talkin hypovolemia...blood loss shock. You descend through a few stages of shock as you lose blood. I'll copy/paste from the link below to explain and make it easier.

Quote:
•Class I hemorrhage (loss of 0-15%)
◦In the absence of complications, only minimal tachycardia is seen.
◦Usually, no changes in BP, pulse pressure, or respiratory rate occur.
◦A delay in capillary refill of longer than 3 seconds corresponds to a volume loss of approximately 10%.

•Class II hemorrhage (loss of 15-30%)
◦Clinical symptoms include tachycardia (rate >100 beats per minute), tachypnea, decrease in pulse pressure, cool clammy skin, delayed capillary refill, and slight anxiety.
◦The decrease in pulse pressure is a result of increased catecholamine levels, which causes an increase in peripheral vascular resistance and a subsequent increase in the diastolic BP.

•Class III hemorrhage (loss of 30-40%)
◦By this point, patients usually have marked tachypnea and tachycardia, decreased systolic BP, oliguria, and significant changes in mental status, such as confusion or agitation.
◦In patients without other injuries or fluid losses, 30-40% is the smallest amount of blood loss that consistently causes a decrease in systolic BP.
◦Most of these patients require blood transfusions, but the decision to administer blood should be based on the initial response to fluids.

•Class IV hemorrhage (loss of >40%)
◦Symptoms include the following: marked tachycardia, decreased systolic BP, narrowed pulse pressure (or immeasurable diastolic pressure), markedly decreased (or no) urinary output, depressed mental status (or loss of consciousness), and cold and pale skin.
◦This amount of hemorrhage is immediately life threatening.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/760145-overview

Essentially, to get a person into deep enough shock from blood loss to have their body start shutting down, you'd have to force them to lose roughly 2.5-3 quarts of blood from their circulatory system. Blood loss takes time and even if you completely destroy the heart, people have about 10 seconds of useful oxygen and sugar in their brain to function. The faster they lose that 2.5 quarts of blood, the better your chances of not being harmed.

To force them to lose blood, you've got to first hit them somewhere that bleeds alot. See the picture below for a reference of what needs to be destroyed to do that. When you hit something that bleeds, the bigger the tunnel the blood can travel through, the faster blood can leak out through it....but you've got to hit it to begin with. Most things that bleed a lot are deep inside of us. Therefore, a good defensive loading needs to 1) be able to penetrate to the important things and THEEEEEEN 2) be as big a permanent crush cavity as possible to both increase chances of damaging something that bleeds and increase the speed of blood loss.

In this way, a fmj that penetrates deeply enough to reach a vena cava, the heart, or aorta is much more useful than a glaser slug that creates a nice mess of superficial things, but doesn't penetrate effectively to damage things that bleed a lot. Expansion doesn't really matter if it doesn't go deep enough to hit something important.


3) Structure-

Destroying the mechanical parts of the body that enable movement stops that particular movement. This is important, but limited in usefullness. If you hit the pelvis with enough force to shatter the hip's ball and socket joint, that hip's normal movement is altered. It can still move, just not in it's intended way.....and everything else in the body is just fine(unless the femoral artery bleeds out enough for the leaking thing to come in to play). Human body's are amazingly resilient and capable of continuing to function with a large amount of damage. Shoot someone's hip, break a femur, destroy the shoulder and scapula and they'll be impaired, but still capable of attacking you. Especially if they have a firearm or some weapon that allows them to project force beyond their immediate area.

9, 40, 45 are similar in ft/lbs of energy in which they do work, but the slower and heavier 45 will have a larger amount of momentum. It'll make the .45 more useful in continuing through bones and things like that on a straighter course and can give them the edge in structural damage.

As for bullet designs and good defensive loadings that accomplish the above tasks well...

speer gold dot: 124+p & 147 gr
winchester pdx1: 147 gr
Winchester ranger t: 127 +p+, 147gr
federal HST: 124+p, 147, 147+p
hornady critical duty: 135 gr, 135+p
remington golden saber bonded: 124+p, 147(non-bonded have jacket-core separation issues)
cor-bon dpx: 115+p

....I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, but these all will do just fine. The most important factors are that they reliably function in your gun and shot placement.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:59 PM
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smokey
this is the best description and analogy i have ever seen on the net years ago I started out carrying a 357 and used hollow points because i did not want the round to go through.... then with the sheriffs dept we used hydro-shock a round I carried till a Mesa Police Officer fired one magazine into a windshield without hitting the suspect trying to run him over he was using a 40cal.... after that they has better results with gold dots.... my nine 45 357 all carry that round..... again thanks for your post it was great
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:48 AM
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smokey
this is the best description and analogy i have ever seen on the net years ago I started out carrying a 357 and used hollow points because i did not want the round to go through.... then with the sheriffs dept we used hydro-shock a round I carried till a Mesa Police Officer fired one magazine into a windshield without hitting the suspect trying to run him over he was using a 40cal.... after that they has better results with gold dots.... my nine 45 357 all carry that round..... again thanks for your post it was great
Thank you for the kind words. I have gotten some good information from this forum and like to give back when possible.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:53 PM
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Oh, I forgot to mention that bonded bullet designs like the pdx1, and gold dot tend to retain mass very well through barriers and often perform pretty well through things like windows, walls, doors and the like. The non-bonded critical duty 135 gr bullet does pretty well through a variety of barriers as well. It takes a different approach to core-jacket separation and has a band in the jacket that mechanically locks in to a band in the bullet's core. The bullet's core is a high-antimony lead alloy that is harder than bonded cores tend to be. This, plus the polymer plug to prevent the cavity from getting plugged by clothing/drywall/bone... makes the critical duty pretty consistent in a variety of settings. It doesn't expand as big as other bullet designs though and as a result will penetrate to around 15"...which I personally like.

the pdx1's have passed the fbi testing criteria and are their current duty ammo if I recall correctly. The critical duty was designed to meet the fbi's testing protocol as well. HST's are phenomenal and tend to have excellent expansion AND penetration by expanding in to a star shape. Each star petal cuts wide, but allows media to flow between it and other petals for less resistance. HST's often have the largest expansion in defensive loadings while still retaining the 12" minimum through ballistics gel.

When hearing, "penetration between 12-15 after hitting barriers like glass or drywall", you may worry about pass-through's hurting the neighbors or others on the other side of walls. Look at it more like this...the more trauma a bullet creates in the threat, the quicker they will stop and the less you will have to continue shooting. Under stress, you're likely to send most of your shots by the threat...so you want whatever shots that land on them to be effective.

Effective defensive planning at home means thinking 3-d ahead of time and planning where a position of strength would be in a room you will be barricaded in and what falls in the background in your direction of fire. You should assume you're going to be missing the threat with a few shots. If there is something you don't want to be shot in that direction, adjust your plan to shoot up/down or from a different location to send those liabilities in a "safer" direction. I've also known some people to line the backs of their kids book shelves with flooring tile as a makeshift bullet trap, should a projectile head their way. Your home is your castle, it's up to you to plan ahead to give yourself the advantage. The harsh reality is that any defensive handgun loading that will be effective WILL penetrate lots of walls.

.223/5.56 is another beast entirely and creates a good bit of trauma, while still breaking apart and dumping off energy through walls pretty quick...so you may think of getting a m&p-15 if over-penetration is a concern in home defense. When loaded with lighter/faster polymer-tipped bullets, the AR can be ideal as a defensive weapon in the home. That's for another thread though...
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:12 PM
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I don't necessarily use law enforcement ammo choices to base civilian self-defense ammo selection on. The main reason is the LE standards for barrier penetration. For me, adequate soft tissue expansion and penetration should be the primary selection criteria for civilian self-defense ammo.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:22 PM
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I don't necessarily use law enforcement ammo choices to base civilian self-defense ammo selection on. The main reason is the LE standards for barrier penetration. For me, adequate soft tissue expansion and penetration should be the primary selection criteria for civilian self-defense ammo.
critical defense may be a choice for you then. Hornady designed it to have very little recoil and stop at around the 11" mark in ballistics gel.

Underwood 9mm 115 gr +P+ JHP Ammo Test - YouTube
this underwood loading may appeal to you as well. I personally want penetration beyond 12" to reach the things that bleed a lot at the back of the thoracic cavity, but .88" expansion and 9" of penetration may be what you're looking for.

I like these a little better and still have a couple hundred left over from an order a while back...
9mm +P+ Underwood 147 gr Gold Dot Ammo Gel Test - YouTube
I'm diggin them. I tossed some through some water jugs a while back and the bullet showed similar expansion to tnoudoors9's tests. Over 12" penetration and .8" expansion is pretty derned decent in a 9mm. They do have some pretty stout recoil though. It's not nearly as pleasant to shoot as the standard 147 gr pdx1's.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:56 AM
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1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One of the reasons penetration is important to me. Your shot may meet arms, legs, jackets, or other barriers on the way to the heart and lungs. On a 3-dimentional target, 12" of penetration is a good minimum to expect. I personally feel more comfortable with 15 or so. In the shootout above, the criminal was shot through his right arm and into his chest cavity. If that weak and outdated 115 gr 9mm was a 147 gr gold dot, or hornady critical duty 135+p, it would have likely penetrated that extra inch into Platt's heart and saved the lives of a couple LEO's. More time is given to threats by underpenetrating rounds failing to make it to the vitals than what an extra .1" expansion would accomplish.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:13 PM
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spyder, as you can see, there are a myriad of possibilities.

Smokey has given you (and us) a gob of VERY useful information in one place. Excellent data.

The choice is yours. For me personally, I've always carried Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:25 PM
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spyder, as you can see, there are a myriad of possibilities.

Smokey has given you (and us) a gob of VERY useful information in one place. Excellent data.

The choice is yours. For me personally, I've always carried Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense.
Thanks radar. I did notice critical defense had much softer recoil than the 135+p critical duty. It's a solid choice for people concerned with recoil.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:33 PM
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found some hst 147 +p...
Federal Premium Tactical HST 9mm 147 Grain +P JHP
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:19 PM
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I'm always worried about over penetration. A stinkin .22LR hard ball can pass right through you. For me it's something proven to expand like Hornady Critical Defense/Duty and Federal Hydra-Shok. Spec'd gel tests and even real meat prove it over and over, these rounds work every time. The shaft in Hydra-Shok's point is like the rubber in the FTX and sheds off fiber so it won't clog. The Hydra-Shok is beefier though and would be better for barrier penetration. Just IMHO...

Happy Shooting-
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:21 PM
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In 9mm, Speer GD, +P 115 or 124 gr.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:06 PM
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Short barrel gun: Hornady Critical Defense

Full size gun: Hornady Critical Duty

Also Rans:

Winchester PDX1

Speer Gold Dot

Federal HydraShok

Given the short barrel of your 3913, I would avoid +P rnds.

By the way, "most" LE agencies buy ammo according to (1) cost, (2) availability, (3) liabilities
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:07 PM
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Default Federal HST

After research, and some shooting, I run Federal HST in every gun I carry except my Judge, and it has a combo of PDX in it.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:21 PM
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Default Good thread!

Good thread!

What do you have on available 10mm and .45 loads?
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outrider View Post
Good thread!

What do you have on available 10mm and .45 loads?
.45 is an interesting cartridge to use for hollow-points. Loads often don't have much more energy than a .40 or 9mm, but they do often have considerably more momentum...like...50% more. The increase in momentum as you go from light/fast of 9, to meh/meh of .40 to heavy/slow of .45 means that as you go up in caliber, you'll experience less deflection. Let me show you an example of what I mean in real numbers...

Federal HST 124+p 9mm out of a glock 19:
Velocity: 1178
Energy: 382
Momentum: 20

Federal HST 230+p 45acp out of a colt 1911:
Velocity: 957(smokin fast with this heavy of a .45)
Energy: 467
momentum: 31

and in real world deflection...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm

Notice that even though the .45 only has a ~20% increase in energy, there's over 50% increase in momentum. It should also be noted that the larger surface area of the base of a .45 compared to a 9mm makes any increase in PSI behind it much more efficient in transferring energy to the bullet. It's the reason why shotguns are so efficient...more base for that pressure to push on.

Now thinking in terms of energy available to do work...work being the tissue moved or crushed by the bullet...since the .45 has pretty similar energy when compared to a 9 or 40, it'll do roughly similar work. Given that the .45 will expand larger than a 9mm most of the time, it means that it will do that work in a shorter distance...orrr...that it won't penetrate as deep.

It's very difficult to make a .45 that will expand to 1.5 times it's diameter and penetrate 12-16" in gel because of what I stated above. Pretty much the only way to do it is with a +p loading or in something heavy for caliber. With the exception of the dpx line, 185 gr .45's will just not reliably penetrate. The best loads are often the 230 gr loads such as the 230 gr.45hst+p above.

here's an example of what I'm saying with 185 gr and penetration...
.45 ACP ZOMBIE MAX Review and Ammo Test - YouTube

With all that out there, here are some good loads...

Winchester ranger t's-230+p
Winchester Ranger 45 Auto +P 230 Grain T-Series Gel Test - YouTube

Winchester pdx1 230
Winchester PDX1 Bonded .45 ACP 230 gr: SIM-TEST* w/denim - YouTube

Federal HST 230gr +p
.45 ACP SHORT BARREL TEST: 230 gr +P Federal HST - YouTube

Federal HST 230 gr
.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube


Speer gold dot 230 gr
Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube


I haven't really seen any independent testing, but have reviewed hornady's testing of their new 220 gr +p critical duty and am pretty interested in giving it a hard look. Their other critical duty lines in 9 and 40 don't really expand all that huge, but penetrate great to around 15". I think this bullet design lends itself very well to the .45.
Critical Duty® 45 Auto +P from Hornady® - YouTube

remington golden sabers still have issues with core/jacket separation, unless you get the bonded bullet. They do feed great in most things though, so could be an option for 1911 shooters who's guns won't feed other hollowpoints.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:18 AM
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Default ammo

I am very old school. Any bullet will do, practice, practice, practice, practice bullet placement is far more important.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:06 AM
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Default 9mm recommendations

I was going to list what I carry which is Hornady critical defense and gold dot hollowpoints but when I read Smokey0118's posts I felt like an illiterate in the presence of a
very accomplished author! Smokey0118, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge!!!
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:53 PM
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thanks for the compliment Haris. I appreciate it.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:52 PM
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In my Glock 26 and my S&W BG I use the Hornady Critical defense (or the zombie rounds) both are the same hollow point with the polymer tip.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:55 PM
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I carry regular winchester 147 gr HPs in my G26.in my 6904 I carry PMC starfires thats wht my old police dept issued.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:26 PM
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Default 10mm?

Smokey,

Anything on 10mm loads?
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outrider View Post
Smokey,

Anything on 10mm loads?
I have less experience with 10mm. A good place for information is here...
Factory 10mm ammo - 10mm-firearms.com

Originally, Cooper thought of the 1cm as a way to get a very heavy projectile with better external ballistics and capacity than a .45, and better whollop than a 9mm. The original loadings were heavy 200+ gr projectiles at medium velocities. In that concept, you've got a soft recoiling bullet that is pretty impressive for terminal ballistics.

It was pumped up to an auto-loading magnum cartridge later on, where many say it realized its full potential. There, you're looking at a 200 gr bullet going 1,300 f/s or so. The issues here are that it tended to have harsher recoil that many people found to be just too much and bullet designs couldn't really handle that kind of velocity and often came apart.

here are some tests with more modern designs that handle it better.
10mm gel tests - 10mm-firearms.com

Again, sorry I can't really help more with this cartridge, but I've not really played around with it yet as much as some others like 9 and 45.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spydermanDan View Post
I wondered if I could get some opinions from the forum on the best ammo and why for self defense. I have a S&W 3913 9mm and have been overwhelmed with all the different info on the internet. Coming to the S&W Forum seemed most appropriate since that is my gun.
Thanks
The best in terms of stopping power seems to be Federal 115 grain JHP number 9BPLE and the Winchester 127 grain JHP, both of which are +P+.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:18 PM
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I forgot to post the obligatory 1cm joke picture describing its potential...
10mm-1.jpg
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:36 AM
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Here in West Central Illinois the best defensive loads are whatever the stores get in that week. I haven't seen any purpose made defensive loads since the shelves went dry in Jan. and Feb. We get a few boxes of hardball 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP in every few days, and that's not even "name brand" ammo.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milly View Post
Here in West Central Illinois the best defensive loads are whatever the stores get in that week. I haven't seen any purpose made defensive loads since the shelves went dry in Jan. and Feb. We get a few boxes of hardball 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP in every few days, and that's not even "name brand" ammo.
Times like this make me really appreciate my second job at the gun counter. I get the inside info when we're getting shipments in, and the managers try to hook up the employees by allowing us to put a couple boxes on hold for ourselves to pick up at the end of our shift. It's insane how empty the shelves are everywhere you go and how high prices are on things.

The next time there's a lull and things go back to being cheap, I need to just grab a bunch of cans of ammo to sell when price inflates again. Ammunition prices and gun values have outpaced my 403b.

Now just time to see if Olin, Federal and the rest decide the juice of expanding production is worth the squeeze. They're largely seeing this as a temporary surge in demand("temporary" being a relative short of a year or so compared to their long term business model). They're scared of pulling a krispy creme and having their expansion outpace demand when demand starts waning again, then being left to foot the bill for all their new employees and production site that need to be paid for.

The only limiting factor on how much they sell now is how much they can produce. Thank goodness I had a nice buffer of ammo bought up before this madness and some reloading gear to fall back on for the moment.
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  #43  
Old 10-18-2013, 11:08 AM
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Barnes tac xpd seems like a decent load in 45, so I can add that to the list. It is only a 185 gr, but the bullet design and +p loading makes it worthwhile in .45 as far as penetration goes.
Barnes TAC-XPD 45acp vs. Gel & Ribs- CLEAR GEL TEST #7 - YouTube
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Old 11-12-2013, 04:48 PM
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bump for haverly38
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