Working for Smith in the "stone age"

[Printer]

When you walked into Product Engineering in the early 80's it was all drafting boards and all you could see was the top of everyone's head. Yep! no computers, CAD, lasers, or cell phones. We relied on paperwork, books and old files for info, plus we had a collection of some of the most knowledgeable people in the business. Most had worked for the major gun companies at one time and some had worked for the Springfield Armory (the Federal Arsenal) before it closed in the 60's. Some actually knew and worked with John Garand and Eugene Stoner. They were a walking glossery of gun knowledge and history and I learned a lot. What a time! The only thing we had that was high tech was a archaic high speed video system which was problematic at best. We even had an ocillascope and a chronograph. Considering all the things we didn't have I think we did a pretty good job and put out some nice guns at the time like the 645, 686 and the development of the 40cal. round. More later.
Bob St.George

[Dot_mdb]

Eagerly waiting for more info. Thanks.

Bill

[mag318]

It's amazing how the industry has changed over the years, and a lot of it not for the better.

[Peter M. Eick]

How is that different then most of us that started work in that time frame? I know I had a drafting table in my office, wrote memo's long hand to be typed by the secretary, had colored pencils and engineering formula books along with the CRC on the desk and when I got my first promotion I got an electric pencil eraser as a gift.

Ah those were the days. (I think?)

Starched white button down shirts, ties and jackets etc.

I was lucky enough to have a scientific calculator.

It was not until the early 90's I got my first desktop computer. A compaq 386x33.

Yep the old timers were well respected and held most of the company history and records in their heads. We pups had to learn as much as we could before they retired.

[PERAZZI]

now corporations take on the "anybody can do it" mentality...

[Cyrano]

"More later"......Please, lots more later.

[Printer]

HI Peter,
Well said. Kids today don't have a clue how it was back then. They can't envision a world without computers. I remember when we just got TV in the early 50's. But we have come along way in a short period of time.
Bob

[Peter M. Eick]

You have me beat by a few years, but I do remember our first TV. Later than you but it was sure interesting to see.

What really struck me was air conditioning in the car. Our 68 IH had it and that was so neat in the desert. You could actual get cool going for a car ride over cooking in the back seat.

I still have my electric pencil sharpener and electric eraser. I will hang onto those until they day I retire and give them to the next generation. To me they were a major badge of honor in the office. Sort of like 10 point dividers or your first Kroy pen.

I will say computers are great though. I use them heavily at the office now. I have at least 5 of them in my office. Some days though, the seem like they just let me make mistakes faster.

Take care.

[jrm53]

When I got into the engineering dept. in 1991 where I worked they had moved from drafting tables to computers I had to learn Anvil 5000 and thought it was great, then we got Pro-Engineer a 3-d program that was great. You could design an assembley, assemble it and make it function. If you had a part that was oversize it would give you a heads up that it would not work. The only problem that I saw was we started on version 13 and when I retired I think we were on version 22, each one was a little different. Jeff

[shouldazagged]

Remember a song by Leroy Anderson, "The Typewriter"? Most of you won't, but I often think that most young people in graduate school today have never seen a typewriter or even a free-standing word processor.

When I started engineering school at Purdue in 1955--didn't last, I have the mathematical ability of a doorstop--I carried a slide rule. Dietzgen log log duplex decitrig. That configuration was prescribed, whether you bought K&E, Dietzgen or Post. It really was pretty amazing what you could do with the damn things. I still have a collection of slide rules, if anyone is interested.

I wasn't good in the drafting courses either. I write lefthanded and upside down...

[S&W5906]

My computer courses pre-date the PC. In fact I was out of college before the IBM PC came out. We have always had drafting sets in the family and I own a Hamilton Standard drafting table. Also have lathes, drill presses, welders, grinder, etc...... as I like to build things or rebuild things. Like old Gravely tractors. My oldest currently is a 1925 D. So yes, I'm old school. Computer were the Mark 1 Brain in the old days and electronic ones have been both a boon and a bane.

[SMSgt]

I remember setting the points on my '64 GTO with a matchbook. Didn't need no stinkin' 'puter back in those days.

[Peter M. Eick]

I only got rid of my Typewriter about 2 years ago. It was an electric IBM pre-ball type. I forget the model. It had a great keyboard.

[A-37]

About 1960, we had a layover at Westover AFB and I took a tour through the S&W factory in Springfield. I recall seeing a room with a bunch of old guys working at their carpeted benches fitting and assembling revolvers. A lot of talent there.

The assembling still has to go on but, with CNC parts, I wouldn't expect to see much meticulous fitting anymore.

I still have the tie clasp the guide gave me. Used to have a silver one, too.

[GJH77]

Originally Posted by Peter M. Eick

...wrote memo's long hand to be typed by the secretary...

And they used carbon paper to make the copy for the files!

[rwsmith]

I was never really great at the board. If I remember right we didn't get cadd until the late 80's and it was crude. But after some computer advancements I could design/draw like gangbusters and the bosses were amazed at my 'incredible speed' as they put it. I kept a drawing table around for years but hardly ever used it again except as a place to pile things. You couldn't drag me back to a drawing board now. It was a great time, nostalgic and we had lots of neat old timey instruments for drawing by hand but for production, give me a computer. I like old cars, old guns, old songs but now mostly just for hobbies.

[HereSinceTheLongHunters]

I built and loved my drafting board.. the rulers were damned sexy... any scale you'd ever need. Had the cheap clamp light. The tape was the most obnoxious part.. always yellow and looking like it's been there for a hundred years. Living without ACAD would be tough tho.. it saves so much time. Its the craftsmanship that I miss... computers can't do aesthetics like humans... Someday.. we may have to slow down a bit.. and put some people back to work crafting as only people can.

[revolver59]

The good old days, where we had service stations with a pop machine, no gas stations with convenient stores. We had pay phones, not cell phones, we had telex, but no fax machines, we had radios, but no color tv,no cable, no netflix, we had books to read and no computers,no computer games, we had comic books. The funny part about all of this is that people seemed to be more mature,settled, responsible, had honor and dignity, cared more for each other, and the dollar was a lot more valuable then, than it is now, and so were people. People had values. Values that money can't buy. We have given up our values for the dollar, as a very simple example, look at our ammo prices, and what is going on with it!! What a shame, why have we lost our values. What would our grand fathers and great grand fathers think of us if they would see what has become of their grand children, and great grand children!If this had happened in their time, they would have shared what they had, with their friends, neighbors,and at times even strangers. The good old days will keep getting older,forever.

[amazingflapjack]

revolver 59-the answers are simple, and not far away.

[POSSIBLEXS]

I'm glad some body brought up "slide rules". I still have an old machIne that uses a "Vernier scale" to set the mechanical stops. When ever a new (and most always younger) person is trained to use that machine, the first thing I have to do is give them a crash course in how to read a vernier scale. I almost always get that same look, as if to say, "you mean that actually works?" I don't mention that "Pierre" invented the thing in 1631. I don't need to remind any of you that visual acuity is why iron sights still work. You remember, those were the blades and notches on that old gun.

BTW, Wikipedia has a little animated diddy that explains the whole thing.

[stringpicker]

I've been a toolmaker for almost 28 years. I was taught by a bunch of old German guys in the Dayton, OH area, and was taught on manual machines. I've eschewed the computer machining in favor of machining as an art form. Being able to hold tolerances, fit and finish, etc., without the aid of a computer separates the men from the boys. Anyone can come in, load a program, and hit the start button...

I still have my small drafting table, T-square, and all of my other drafting equipment. I designed most of what I made from the early 1990's on. I can use AutoCAD, but prefer the pencil and square method.

The old way was truly an art form, and is lost in today's world of profit margins, increased production and unwillingness to pay the higher wages commensurate with experience.

Luckily, my experience has moved me from Ohio to Utah and now PA. There are some places that still want the old school way, and are willing to pay what it takes to get it. Because of that, I was able to refuse a job in GA last summer with Daniel Defense. They offered to pay for the move, but no aid with selling my home here...so I stayed. (Good thing, too since my health has deteriorated to a point that I am unable to drive, much less work).

The world has changed, but the old way will always be held in high regards...especially if there's a catastrophic attack on our computer networks nationwide.

I'd like to see some of these new "toolmakers" calculate a stack-up of gage blocks for a sine bar without a calculator!! LOL

[Printer]

Hi A-37,
Funny you mentioned Westover. I lived outside the main gate. I went in the Marine Corps from 69-72 then I was in the reserves there from 1972-1996 and retired. My father was a bartender at the NCO club there. Bob St.George (1ea.)

[Printer]

Stringpicker,
Your right its a dieing art being a tool maker and doing things the old way. We could have used you at Smith&Wesson. You would have been among some of the best toolmakers and nicest guys I ever met. Sorry to hear about your health.
Bob St.George

[stringpicker]

Originally Posted by Printer

Stringpicker,
Your right its a dieing art being a tool maker and doing things the old way. We could have used you at Smith&Wesson. You would have been among some of the best toolmakers and nicest guys I ever met. Sorry to hear about your health.
Bob St.George

I'm sure they had some of the best there...I was taught by their brethren in the trade. I got my start working for my dad in his shop...at the age of 13. Everyday after school, every weekend, holidays, etc., I was in his shop. He had about 20 German guys working for him, that were on the verge of retirement, or should have retired 10 years prior...they were all a father figure to me in many ways.

As for my health...I'm not too concerned. It's given me a pause in my life to spend with my kids when they need me the most...in their teenage years. I was smarter than most, and wisely invested my savings, putting all bonuses and such into proper accounts, and pay for my house with cash. Having a fixed income sucks, but I have a pretty decent buffer between me and poverty...another trick I learned from many of the old guys I worked with. They were damned smart guys!

[A-37]

Printer Bob,

SAC had KC-97s at Westover in the '50s and '60s. We'd fly our KC-97Gs from Lincoln AFB NE to Westover for new props, spend the night at Westover (always a good deal with per diem, good clubs, etc.) then fly a finished tanker back to Lincoln the next day.

I'll bet you loved seeing the F-102s blasting around the pattern back in those days.

Ed (30 years AF)

[Hansli]

Every boy in 7th grade took a semester of drafting. It didn't matter if you were a going to dig clams of cure cancer for your future living. We were issued HB pencils, a T square, scale and drawing board. We were taught architectural lettering, how to use a scale and were required to do 6 3 aspect drawings of various blocks with holes through them.

When you finished your six, we went on to a semester of metal shop. The drawing taught us how to lay out simple tool boxes etc which we made from sheet metal. You had to submit a drawing with hems, fold etc to get the right amount of material. I am still grateful for this education.

That being said, I own but seldom use hand planes, most nails are driven with guns and hand saws come out only seldom. The production increase has been tremendous. if I didn't have a computer, I would never have had the chance to own some of the revolvers I had or be able to benefit from what I have learned on this forum. The computer is the ham radio of the 21st century. Progress is, to me, always a double edge sword.

[GaryS]

We had to take drafting in junior high school too. I liked it, but I wasn't very good at it. I still have the little metal box I had to layout, cut, and assemble.

The soldering irons we had were heated by a gas jet, so it took forever to solder anything.

As much as I like old stuff, the truth is the newer stuff is affordable to a large extent because of AutoCAD, CNC machines, and other modern conveniences. A friend of mine works in the electronic manufacturing business. For about half his career, everything was done by hand. When I got my first computer in 1988, he had no interest in them at all. A few years later he went to work for a company that makes devices that are driven by software. As a result he had to learn all about them and he taught me a lot too. He and I built a lot of computers that we sold to people who thought we were magicians.

It's like cell phones. There are a lot of pain in the neck aspects to them, but I wouldn't be without one now for anything.

It's progress and even we cranky old farts benefit from it.

[Printer]

Hi Ed,
I remember,I think, in the 60's Westover had B-52's. They used to rattle the pictures off the walls. Then they went to 123's and 130's left over from the Viet Nam war. Then, believe it or not, shut down Pease AFB in N.H. which was a SAC base also using F-111's and gave Westover C-5's and made us AMC instead of a SAC base. Unfortunately the hangers wouldn't fit the C-5s so they started building then at about 75 million a piece.
Bob St.George USAFR (ret.) 1.ea.

[S&W5906]

Originally Posted by A-37

Printer Bob,

SAC had KC-97s at Westover in the '50s and '60s. We'd fly our KC-97Gs from Lincoln AFB NE to Westover for new props, spend the night at Westover (always a good deal with per diem, good clubs, etc.) then fly a finished tanker back to Lincoln the next day.

I'll bet you loved seeing the F-102s blasting around the pattern back in those days.

Ed (30 years AF)

Now you are starting to tell your age. Very few people remember the C-97/KC-97/Stratocruisers. It was one of the planes at Pima that I had to get a look at when we were out there in the 80s. Our first leg of our gov't paid trip to Cyprus was in a TWA Stratocruiser. The trip also included flights on classics such as a 707, Comet 4, and a DC-3. When they all were still fairly new.