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Old 05-11-2013, 11:28 PM
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Default Can a new 3rd gen design sell?

You guys are great with sharing information and ideas on this forum and I would love to get some of your ideas on this topic.

I have noticed many threads and posts with discussions about whether or not S&W could still make the 3rd gen guns and sell them. I wonder how many of you agree with me that the problem with these gun’s slow sales had less to do with the advent of the plastic gun market and more to do with the fact that these 3rd gens were based on a 50 year old design and just looked "stale".

I believe when S&W introduced the TSW models with the riveted-on black rail they missed a chance to re-design this gun as a 4th generation gun. The market was clearly going “tactical” so I understand why the rails had to be introduced. But the bolt on rail looked cheap and out of place. It ruined the good looking lines of these guns. A milled-in rail would have been much better. The so-called TSW series features such as the larger frame rails, tighter tolerances throughout, steel guide rod, laser etched billboard, etc; were worthwhile new features but the guns did not come off as something new but rather just improved.

Many of you bring up the price as a issue but I whole-heartedly disagree. If people will pay $1200 to $1400 for all steel 1911’s then I bet they would pay $1000 for a modern 3rd gen. I bet that the average gun buyer has more disposable income to spend on guns today than they did back in 1990 and I clearly remember these all steel guns selling for $500 to $800 back then which in todays dollars is like $800 to $1100. Today’s buyer is willing and able to buy something “different” or “cool” even if they don’t need it. Just look how aggressively manufactures have had to re-style their new “1911” models in order to stay marketable. Just look at the "E" series guns.

The way I see it S&W would sell a lot of these 3rd gen guns if they would do the following:

1) THE SLIDE: Re-design the slide with the scalloped look like what we saw on guns like the “Shorty-Forty”. Re-design the “cocking” serrations with a new fresh design like the “fish scale” look or something similar. In short, make it look new and fresh. Make the slide so that you could change out the Walther style safety levers from “decock/safety on” to “decock only, return to fire” and also make it DAO if desired. Re-design the Novak sights to be bolder and include a modern option of a rear adjustable sight and fiber optic tubes.

2) THE FRAME: The frame should be re-designed to have a more ergonomic grip (think of HK’s excellent P30 or Walther’s PPQ) and I am not talking about the plastic grip but rather the metal frame area of the grip. Of course a mill in a integral rail for the light you will never mount on it.

3) WEIGHT: These guns could go on a diet. How about the use of scandium in the frame or maybe “skeletonizing” the frame and slide to save weight.

4) THE GRIP: Simply a cosmetic change would be welcome here but no reason that there could not be more choices available for grip “shapes”.

5) INTERNALS: The inner workings on these guns are excellent but there are too many parts and this is a design from the 1940’s. We have learned a lot since then so no reason that modern machining and computers can’t do better.

6) FINISH: We need a Melonite finish as a option.

7) MODULARITY: These guns beg for interchangeable slides and magazines. Imagine how well this would sell: A 10mm gun that has a frame with a shortened grip for compactness (think of a 4516 compared to a 4506) but with magazines that have the option of extensions so that when inserted not only extend the capacity but also extend the grip to be like a full size frame. The slides could be sold as “kits”. Imagine a 3.75, 4.25, 5.00, and a 6.00 inch slide choice. Of course the “new design” slides could be changed from traditional DA/SA with a safety to DAO without any special tools. How many of you would like to carry a concealed small frame DAO 10mm gun by day and have the option to swap the slide out in 10 seconds to the 6.00 inch slide with traditional DA/SA with safety when you are “in the woods”?


What are your ideas?
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEBELLYYANKEE View Post
Many of you bring up the price as a issue but I whole-heartedly disagree. If people will pay $1200 to $1400 for all steel 1911’s then I bet they would pay $1000 for a modern 3rd gen. I bet that the average gun buyer has more disposable income to spend on guns today than they did back in 1990 ................
What are your ideas?
I doubt in todays economy that most people have more disposable income. Moreover, todays economy isn't that of 1990. Given the economy and the zeitgeist, what's selling are combat guns, not pride of ownership items. I've carried and taught both for decades and the M&P series is a better combat gun than the 3rd generation pistols. While I greatly admire JMBs masterpiece and truly believe that most don't really grasp what he achieved when he did the 1911 (which I carried for 19 years), I also believe it's an inferior weapon to the modern product. Please note my choice of term: weapon. If you want a fetish or artifact, it's your money.

S&W will build metal frame guns with sufficient orders. If the big distributors feel there's a market, they'll place orders. The resounding silence and lack of product indicates they don't see a market. No market, no product.

BTW, all the design and development work to produce your dreams costs money. Should you feel moved to endow S&W to do development work with reimbursement once tooling and lost production of current products are recovered, feel free. I'm not really trying to belittle you, simply to point out economic reality.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:54 AM
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I think the availability of police tradeins has lowered what people will pay for a 3rd gen, even an improved one.

I know it has affected me, I paid $375 for my like new 4003 a few years ago, as much as I love them it would be hard for me to pay around a grand for a similar pistol.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:36 AM
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The short answer is "NO".

The long answer comes down to a mix of factors, the biggest one being a fundamental shift in the gun culture of America. Times change, and with them so do social mores.

When the Third Generation pistols were released, it was the late 1980s. Back then the Air Force still kept nuclear armed bombers on standing alert! Among other matters, back then the typical handgun was made out of metal and only carried plastic on its stocks.

Today the tables have truly turned: now, the only metal you're likely to find on a gun nowadays is in the barrel and internal parts. Furthermore that's exactly the way people want them. Us "cognoscenti" are just that: rare outliers of a much larger market.

The typical shooter considers anything with an external safety hopelessly outdated. The 1911 gets a pass on account of its crisp trigger pull, but the S&W semi autos have heavy DA pulls. That wasn't a problem back in the 1960s when everyone trained on revolvers, but nowadays the typical shooter starts with an XD or Glock variant, some of which have sub 4lb trigger pull. Most shooters these days run 50 rounds through a gun every 6 months and call it done.

There's no way S&W will ever get the modern day Average Joe to dump their Glocks for a gun with a heavier trigger action and higher price.And a higher price it would need to be, because the cost and labor to build a 5906TSW is significantly higher then an M&P9.

A 2lb 15 shot 9mm? Lolz. Why pay more for a heavy, un-carryable handgun only big fingered men can shoot when HK will sell you a P30 with a bajillion backstraps?

An 11 shot .40 S&W? The tactical gun writers would die in their chairs laughing, and LE agencies would be all in stitches right along with them. Some officers have a hard enough time hitting the B27 without adding 15lbs to the trigger pull!

A 9 shot 10mm? Ill bet about 6 guys on this website have the scratch to buy one now. Of those, only 4 can afford to buy ammo to feed a re-made 1006- and 2 of them will be sleeping on the couch when their wives get the credit card statement.

Because of the legacy amounts of magazines, holsters, and parts floating around for these guns S&W does not have the option to re-design the frames. So all the flaws of the old guns will be necessarily built into the new ones.

It is a hard truth to face, but face it we must-the time of the S&W 3rd Gen is over. The sun has set , and instead of wishing the Earth to reverse its rotation we should adapt to the prospect of a new day.
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:00 AM
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Default I think that most customers

The main part of the customer base are now people that consider metal guns 'old fashioned' People like us that when told the word 'pistol' picture in our minds a mostly metal object are getting to be a niche market.
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:05 AM
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Adding to the issue is that S&W can produce 3X more polymer pistols per shift than all metal ones.
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:46 AM
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I see the continuing theme here is still "cost". If so, how do we explain that gun dealers cant keep Kimber's in stock and they are 6 to 8 months in backorder? I don't think they have a gun under $1000. Or how about that my local gun dealer can't keep the metal frame Sig Sauer's in stock but the polymer frame guns sit on his shelf for months. I have been trying to buy a S&W "E" series for a year now but they continue to sell the same day they hit the shelves. Try to find a Hi-Power for sale. How do we explain the S&W model 41 .22 semi auto? This thing is $1200 and is supposed to be sold out and on backorder. This has been going on long before the crazy "gun run" that we just experienced in the last 4 months.

It is also being brought up that you can't justify re-tooling for very small production runs. Maybe true, but over the years S&W has always offered their "Performance Center" guns that were what I would call a "very small production run" and those guns definitely required re-tooling to produce their slides and frames.

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Old 05-12-2013, 09:12 AM
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While the guns mentioned in the previous post have their merits, particularly the HP, they still sell to a relatively small market base. A new 3rd Gen would also. It's just not in S&W's business model to produce one.

To make the amount of profit they do on their M&P's they'd either have to sell them for considerably more than $1,100 -$1,200, or sell considerably more of them than M&P's.

Just not going to happen.
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Old 05-12-2013, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEBELLYYANKEE View Post
I see the continuing theme here is still "cost". If so, how do we explain that gun dealers cant keep Kimber's in stock and they are 6 to 8 months in backorder? I don't think they have a gun under $1000. Or how about that my local gun dealer can't keep the metal frame Sig Sauer's in stock but the polymer frame guns sit on his shelf for months. I have been trying to buy a S&W "E" series for a year now but they continue to sell the same day they hit the shelves. Try to find a Hi-Power for sale. How do we explain the S&W model 41 .22 semi auto? This thing is $1200 and is supposed to be sold out and on backorder. This has been going on long before the crazy "gun run" that we just experienced in the last 4 months.

It is also being brought up that you can't justify re-tooling for very small production runs. Maybe true, but over the years S&W has always offered their "Performance Center" guns that were what I would call a "very small production run" and those guns definitely required re-tooling to produce their slides and frames.
There's more to it then just re tooling.

Sure we agree S&W could build another run of third generation pistols.The trouble is who would they sell them to?Police? Public Agencies care about equipment cost,not quality of hardware.

Us civilians? Nein.The average gun shopper wants a polymer frame.More mag capacity,lighter frame,and can be altered in the stock so that the female of the house can shoot it.

The only reason metal frame Sigs,1911s, and Berettas are still around is because of Uncle Sam.The 92FS would have been dropped long ago if it wasn't the sidearm of the DoD.Likewise Sig P229s and others are still popular choices among Federal and State LE agencies with bigger budgets like the US Secret Service,Air Force OSI,and so forth.The 1911 has an 80 year heritage as being Americas signature pistol thanks to its service in the military.

Once current Federal contracts end for those firearms,they'll be discontinued just like the 3rd Gen Smith's were.
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:26 PM
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Its fun to dream of a 3913 commemorative edition or CS9 V2.0, but it probably will never happen. I would think it is doable - not much different than producing parts for 1911's or revolvers at the Holton plant. But for whatever reason, pricing, slow sales, competition with the M&P, whatever, it just isn't in S&W's current business model.

But us hard core - or as I like to think of the 3d Gen Forum Ratz; we who have discerning tastes in weapons - can dream of the day. I like all the OP's suggestions, but I'd keep it simple and just do cosmetics (isn't that what Kimber does?) Get rid of the Delrin grips and give me some nice rosewood furniture. Of course, that would mean a 2d Gen style backstrap and a replaceable backstrap would allow different sizes. Beyond that, I'd do Melonite, maybe a little gold paint in the markings and do a few full page magazine ads (again like Kimber). Promote it as a limited edition and for the discerning gun owner.

So what model shall we start with? 3913? CS9? CS45?

With my luck S&W will do this, but it will the the 100th Anniversary Edition of the 3d Gen and I won't be around to see it. <G>
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:36 PM
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You know what I wish they would do?

Every time they make a run for CHP (4006) or Fresno or wherever (4566) or NYPD (5946), I wish they would make a couple hundred extra for sale to the public. That would help with some of us "oldies" (no offense to the original poster) who like such things.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:28 PM
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Since we're dreaming, I'll take a 3916, all steel version of my 3913 please.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:40 PM
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Give me more stale!
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:48 PM
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Unfortunately, those of us infected with 3rd Genitis are a distinct minority. You only have to look at the directory when you sign on to see where the majority of the interest lies. The M&P Forum usually has twice as many people viewing. I've got nothing against M&P's, I own two, but I just prefer 3rd Gens. It would be fantastic if S&W were to offer something close to the 3900, 5900, 6900, 4000, 4500 & 1000 series pistols we all know & love, but for most of the reasons mentioned here, I don't see it happening.
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:07 PM
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So who's going to step up, take the orders, contact S&W, and make it happen?
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:47 PM
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It's a lovely dream, but I fear it's only that.
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Old 05-12-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
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So who's going to step up, take the orders, contact S&W, and make it happen?
A gentleman on the HK forum managed to put together a group buy on a special version of the HK45c that HK did actually produce for them. Of course it wasn't on anything that was out of production, just a variation of a production gun.
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Old 05-12-2013, 03:30 PM
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Yes, but not in the numbers needed to make it profitable, and that's what it takes.
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Old 05-12-2013, 03:49 PM
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I do so love my 3913, but it's relegated to student use in my pistol classes.
Even though it's still one of my favorite guns, I carry a Kimber Solo 9 or a PPS9 if concealed, and a Walther PPQ 40 if open.

What a shame. Now I feel guilty.
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Old 05-12-2013, 03:51 PM
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Why not a limited production version in the classics group like they do with the Model 10? Doesn't the same arguement apply? A 10-5 police trade-in is a hell of a lot cheaper than a new classic Model 10. I would go back to an earlier era than the flood of 5906 and 6906 on the used market. Lets say all steel blued Mod 39 and 59, both rated for +P+
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Old 05-12-2013, 04:30 PM
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Well for the 3rd generation guns Colt and many others still make a steel 1911 and they DO sell them .I love 1911's BUT have just acquired my 3914 and have a new pal that rides with me a lot of times instead of my 1911's. Some of the 3rd gen.s are heavy like my 4516-3 .I don't think that S&W will ever look back and produce the 3 rd Gen. again because of corporate decisions . I wish they would to satisfy some urges that i have.
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
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Why not a limited production version in the classics group like they do with the Model 10?
Right now, I'd imagine its "all hands on deck" at the Houlton plant as it is.

Since they're firewalled with work making profitable 1911s, why bother diverting capital to making a "classic" with limited appeal?

Ultimately that's the core problem S&W faces in marketing any 3rd Gen today. Who's going to spend $1000 on a single stack 9mm? About the same number of people who would spend $2000 on a 10mm pistol,as in not enough to justify lifting a corporate finger. Unless one of us has north of $500K to offer as upfront payment to the company for a custom order of pistols, its not gonna happen.
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:59 PM
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You know, for all those that say it can't happen......S & W won't do it because it isn't profitable, because the trend is towards polymer, because it is outdated, because people won't pay........

Explain to me how/why Sig is doing it and is profitable, how/why Beretta is doing it and is profitable, how/why CZ is doing it and is profitable...

Sig has never had a successful poly framed gun and they also manufacture a 1911 style gun. Apparently they can balance CNC time between all the models they manufacture. Price point argument? Plenty of folks pay top dollar for Sigs, and they usually don't just sit on the shelves.

Beretta has a government contract, okay. I still see 92/96s selling for $700 brand new. Oh wait, they have not had a successful poly pistol either. And don't mention the PX4...it has been adopted by maybe 1 LE agency?

How about CZ? They make one of the slickest 9 mm pistols around, the 75. Again, I don't know of a single successful polymer design they have put out that has enjoyed widespread success.

It boils down to the fact that when a company ceases to be innovative, it is driven by the bottom line. The M&P provides a greater margin of profitability for S & W. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is better or innovative. It is more profitable.....that's it.
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:07 AM
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I gotta say I'm rather amused at all the "can't, won't, not profitable" remarks. S&W knows there's a market for the older pistols, they sell them to various LE agencies on a special order basis, and I would hope they notice the credit card order I placed for 4 3913 mags a few months ago, or possibly to inquires of others for mags for the various 3rd Gen pistols still out there.
As somebody who's viewing this from the other side of the fence, I do realize that polymer is the future or present material of choice. Lightweight, hi-firepower, usually a fancy finish that shrugs off sweat and blood, multiple grips that make an erector set look cool, light rails, little or no safety, and a DAO trigger in the 5-7 pound range, simple to maintain and simple to use.
Yet I also notice the recent flap Glock had or is having with its "Gen 4" pistols, the accuracy issues with the M&P9 full size, the self dropping mags of the Shield .40, the return of a shipment of HK 45C/T by NSW to H&K, the early frame problems with the Glock 22, the "KaBoom" of same model, and so on. To quote Ellen Ripley,"Did I.Qs. Suddenly drop while I was away?!"
The 3rd Gen had its share of problems no doubt, as do 1911s, BHPs, SIGs, and Berettas.
"The older designs have too many parts!" Uh huh, so? Run ANY machine long enough and something will break! Glocks you can fix with a butter knife and a 10 penny nail, 3rd Gens, you need an armorer or gun smith. So what, most do take there vehicle to a certified mechanic and pay for repairs.
"Alloy frames are weak." Really?! ISP shot the heck out of 39s, 39-2s, and 5904s with +P+! And they survived! Plastic can warp and crack, so can alloy, both can be fixed. Steel, well if you warp or break a steel frame, I don't want any of your ammo!!
"Machining costs money!" Sure does, but with modern CNC machines its not near as expensive as you may think.
And finally "There too heavy!" Oh please! 2.5-3lbs of pistol, couple of mags, get off the couch already!
And just a personal note, while I love my Glock 19 for all its attributes, I have a 3913 that hides so much better, has a passive and active safety, and SHOOTS RINGS AROUND SAID Glock! And a 5946 that will keep up with it all day long! Sure it's heavy, but it makes a decent club when the bullets run out. Somethin the Glock ain't so good at.
And when was the last time you could render a Glock "dead" with the push of the magazine release durin a gun grab? Dale
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:50 AM
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How many 3913s do you see for sale? How many tactical 3913s?

Just a quick search of previous 3913s on gunsamerica appears that they all sold. Rough ones 600-800 and pristine ones for a grand. It took me a year to find my 3913tsw and I knew what I was looking for. I have not seen another one as nice as it in the year since I bought it. Although several people on this very forum have tried to buy it. I am not trying to sell it. The demand for 3rd gens especially the rare ones far out weigh their supply. Hence why this thread popped up. I own a Hi Power and a bunch of 3rd gens. I can shoot them better than I can my XDm but guess what if I have to fly somewhere and need to check a gun to meet me in my destination then I am not taking any of the rare all metal guns I have but rather my XDm. It is an easily replaceable gun, disposable if you will.

Things change all the time, times and trends but Smith and Wesson has decided to focus on government contracts and supply rather than custom high end firearms. I do not know how you see so many Sigs or Kimbers are out of stock? Just go to the local gun auction sites and see how many they have for sale? it is take your pick. Rare limited production or special edition firearms sell a lot better than millions of production M&Ps. You can go anywhere at anytime and buy another and they are cheap. Why buck the trend?

A 3rd generation SW would be a 1000-2000 dollar gun these days, similar to the 1911s they make. I am sure for a business stance it does not make sense for them to make a 3rd generation gun that would be priced and in direct competition with their 1911 series.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:23 AM
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How many 3913s do you see for sale? How many tactical 3913s?

Just a quick search of previous 3913s on gunsamerica appears that they all sold. Rough ones 600-800 and pristine ones for a grand.
When evaluating the business viability of a product, we must consider both supply AND demand.

Right now the used 3913s sell for under $1000. Its a safe assumption that S&W can't make a profit on a brand new one for that price, not with a modern Melonite finish and higher current costs for raw materials and labor.

So, that's the supply side. What about demand? I don't see much musing in the gun world for a metal frame compact 9mm pistol. What I observe is a greater desire for smaller , single stack poly frame guns which are easier to conceal and easier to shoot for the fairer sex.

We see a gun like a 5906 and observe a well crafted work . The greater marketplace sees a 2lb 9mm pistol with blocky ergonomics that Sally Shooter can't get her hands around, and is as concealable as a Cadillac in downtown Chicago.
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You know, for all those that say it can't happen......S & W won't do it because it isn't profitable, because the trend is towards polymer, because it is outdated, because people won't pay........

Explain to me how/why Sig is doing it and is profitable, how/why Beretta is doing it and is profitable, how/why CZ is doing it and is profitable....
To a degree, this response involves a measure of speculation. I do not have access to Beretta's, Sig Sauer's, and CZ's balance sheet, but I'll repeat why those firms make money on metal frame pistols; the answer is Uncle Sam.

Government contracts make guns profitable in 2 ways. One, they obviously buy the hardware and parts support in bulk. Two, the cost of R&D is amortized over a greater number of products, and finally the product sales are guaranteed via contract. Notice how Beretta never aggressively advertises the 92FS the way Springfield Armory does their XDs. Why? Because us Average Joe's are just profitable gravy. Beretta doesn't need our business to make the 92FS profitable.

CZ's business model is a niche brand, one based exclusively on one particular model made since the mid 1970's modified into different variants. This would be akin to S&W making just the M-39 9mm single stacks for 40 years straight-no 5906, CS9s, 4006s, etc.


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Sig has never had a successful poly framed gun and they also manufacture a 1911 style gun. Apparently they can balance CNC time between all the models they manufacture. Price point argument? Plenty of folks pay top dollar for Sigs, and they usually don't just sit on the shelves..
This is false.


The SP2022 is polymer framed, and was so successful Sig Sauer's attempt to replace it failed and they wound up bringing the gun back into production.


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Beretta has a government contract, okay. I still see 92/96s selling for $700 brand new. Oh wait, they have not had a successful poly pistol either. And don't mention the PX4...it has been adopted by maybe 1 LE agency?.
If LE agency adoption is the metric for success, the 3rd Gen REALLY is a crummy pistol then! After all, nearly every LE agency in America-including the Illinois State Police, who darn near helped S&W BUILD these fine guns- dumped S&W for the cheaper, lighter Glock.

Government bean counters are not arbiters of firearm effectiveness.
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How about CZ? They make one of the slickest 9 mm pistols around, the 75. Again, I don't know of a single successful polymer design they have put out that has enjoyed widespread success..
The CZ P-07 proves that to be wrong.
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It boils down to the fact that when a company ceases to be innovative, it is driven by the bottom line. The M&P provides a greater margin of profitability for S & W. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is better or innovative. It is more profitable.....that's it.
Indeed its more profitable. Its also more relevant to the needs of the modern day shooter.

Most gun owners are NOT like us!

The typical guy and gal looking for a gun wants something reliable, proven, and preferably a gun used by the police or a major military unit. The premise being that if a gun is good enough for Police Department X, its probably good enough to defend their household.

The M&P isn't a stirring design , but it IS a more practical pistol then a third generation design. I should know as I owned both briefly and compared the M&P9 to the S&W 5903. At the end of the day the M&P shot better for me , even though it has all the soul of a Soviet apartment building. Ultimately when the chips are down the bad guy doesn't care what's written on the slide, and for newbies to shooting the M&P makes more sense.

Its cheaper, fits more hands, requires less time to master , and needs minimum maintenance to function. For Joe Everyman, that's all he'll ever need his gun to do.

For us cognoscenti, we need something more then that for our pistols. That doesn't make it profitable for a firm like S&W to cater to our needs.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:20 AM
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S&W charged the WVSP $750 for those very nice melonite 4566TSW's. That was within the last two years.

As of today, S&W still makes 3rd gen pistols at their Houlton plant, but limit the sales to LE. Afterall, who would buy an M&P if you could have a 3914 instead? For only $150 more MSRP too.

The m&p doesn't compare well to the 3rd gen pistols. On build quality, trigger, accuracy, reliability or resale value. If you want a second opinion, its ugly too.

I personally think the m&p pistols are the 2nd most overhyped, overated guns on the market. Next to Kimbers. I've shot many different model m&ps in different calibers over the last 5 years. You couldn't give me one as a gift. If I were to carry striker fired plastic, I'd get a new Glock 30S. Good trigger. Very accurate gun.

Evidently there are also other gun guys out in LE who DON'T want m&p's. They want 3rd gen pistols. S&W initially told the WVSP that they wouldn't make or sell any more 4566TSW's for them. They said they would trade them m&p pistols for their inventory of older 4566TSW's. WVSP told S&W to go pound sand with their m&p. They would buy the Glock 21 instead. S&W decided they could make and sell some more 4566TSW's after all. Imagine that. Regards 18DAI
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:25 AM
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I just thought I would throw this out there in response to the "its to heavy when metal" or "3rd Gens are antiquated". My H&K p2000sk weighs 24oz empty. My CS9 weighs 24oz fully loaded! I would argue that smith was ahead of its time! The mistake they made was not adapting the firing system to the new generations. All they had to do was come out with some LEM models or lighten the first pull on their DA/SA and add some rail options and they still would have been light years ahead of the competition! They already had the size and weight and reliability taken care of long before the other guys did in the compact and sub-compact market they just didn't follow through with proper marketing IMO.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
S&W charged the WVSP $750 for those very nice melonite 4566TSW's. That was within the last two years.

As of today, S&W still makes 3rd gen pistols at their Houlton plant, but limit the sales to LE. Afterall, who would buy an M&P if you could have a 3914 instead? For only $150 more MSRP too.

The m&p doesn't compare well to the 3rd gen pistols. On build quality, trigger, accuracy, reliability or resale value. If you want a second opinion, its ugly too.

I personally think the m&p pistols are the 2nd most overhyped, overated guns on the market. Next to Kimbers. I've shot many different model m&ps in different calibers over the last 5 years. You couldn't give me one as a gift. If I were to carry striker fired plastic, I'd get a new Glock 30S. Good trigger. Very accurate gun.

Evidently there are also other gun guys out in LE who DON'T want m&p's. They want 3rd gen pistols. S&W initially told the WVSP that they wouldn't make or sell any more 4566TSW's for them. They said they would trade them m&p pistols for their inventory of older 4566TSW's. WVSP told S&W to go pound sand with their m&p. They would buy the Glock 21 instead. S&W decided they could make and sell some more 4566TSW's after all. Imagine that. Regards 18DAI
Not to toot our own horns ,but those of us on this website are enthusiasts:and enthusiasm by definition is not a common trait.

LE typically gets a discount compared to us ordinary folk:as much as I'd love a 1006 re-issue (keep the rabbit ear sights please) ,the business case just isn't there.I'm an economics major,and statistics show one of the primary reasons products fail in the marketplace is because the company offering it never understood their customer base.

A re-released 3rd gen makes sense for us fringe enthusiasts;but we aren't representative of the marketplace.The typical gun shopper compares everything to Glock and goes from there.That's the ugly reality of the modern day gun market.

All S&W would gain with a new 3rd Gen is a reduced profit margin.It would be the modern day equivalent of the Bren Ten debacle.As Dornaus and Dixon alongside Jeff Cooper found out the hard way,just because a product is compelling doesn't equate to it being commercially successful.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:01 PM
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So who's going to step up, take the orders, contact S&W, and make it happen?
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:58 PM
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I am sure if a bunch of us got together on a group buy. Where we agree to buy XXX amount of 3rd gen smiths and wessons for xxx.xx amount of dollars, then I am sure they would make some up for us.

Although I have a lot of third gens already so I would have a hard time coming up with a new 3rd gen I want to earn.
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Old 05-13-2013, 08:58 PM
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So who's going to step up, take the orders, contact S&W, and make it happen?
I wouldn't want to touch that job with a 10 foot pole...


With this bunch, that would be like herding an enormous bunch of cats trying get an agreement/consensus in sufficient numbers on just what model, caliber, barrel length, etc. that the special order would be comprised of.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:11 PM
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The short answer is "NO".



A 9 shot 10mm? Ill bet about 6 guys on this website have the scratch to buy one now. Of those, only 4 can afford to buy ammo to feed a re-made 1006- and 2 of them will be sleeping on the couch when their wives get the credit card statement.
.
Untrue, I load 10mm at the same cost as .40. About 4 years ago you could buy bulk 10mm for literally $10 more per 500 than .40.

I like my M&P's but I hate that there isn't a clean "break" in the trigger.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:13 PM
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I wouldn't want to touch that job with a 10 foot pole...


With this bunch, that would be like herding an enormous bunch of cats trying get an agreement/consensus in sufficient numbers on just what model, caliber, barrel length, etc. that the special order would be comprised of.

it would be cool in that we could put a SW forum logo on it and make it some sort of commemorative edition. A true enthusiasts gun.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:40 PM
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I wouldn't want to touch that job with a 10 foot pole...


With this bunch, that would be like herding an enormous bunch of cats trying get an agreement/consensus in sufficient numbers on just what model, caliber, barrel length, etc. that the special order would be comprised of.
It would make for a great thread though.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:46 PM
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I started this thread with idea of hearing some of your ideas about what should be incorporated in a new 3rd gen design in order for it to sell to the current market. Surprisingly few ideas to add so far.

So on to the profit argument. I am surprised that much is being made about it not being "profitable". No way around the fact that other manufacturers are selling metal frame guns and are doing it well. I truly believe that the recent popularity of the 1911 has to do with it's appeal to a market that wants an all metal gun. "The public cannot afford to pay $1000 for a new re-designed 3rd gen"? Huh? I watch used 3rd gens sell every week on gunbroker for $800 to $1000. Beat up police trade 5906's selling like hot cakes for $500 all day long should be proof enough that there is market for a redesigned gun. The gun buying public is much larger and richer today than it was 25 years ago and it shows when I walk into a gun store and look at the various models that are available. It seems there is a gun to fill every niche. If you have any doubt about the disposable income people have to throw at guns one only has to look at the accessories and cr*p that people put on their AR-15's. There is no doubt that people are buying guns that they want but will never need. Who needs a $1400 kimber when a $700 Springfield Armory Range Officer is just as good? Who needs a $1300 S&W "E" series with a rail and melonite finish when the $800 stainless without a rail model is just as good. Or how about a Performance Center gun for twice the price as stock- Oh, that's right we don't have to worry about S&W making such a small production run of guns anymore since they cannot make a profit doing it and besides everybody is buying the profitable M&P and will never treat themselves to something special like a Performace Center model ever again.

I think this boils down to market share. Right now there is a existing market for metal frame guns, the evidence is in your gun dealer's gun case, the question is could a modern S&W alternative to the Sigs, Brownings, Berettas, Rugers, CZs, or whatever, sell? I bet it could if it was different and sexy enough.

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Old 05-13-2013, 09:58 PM
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the question is could a modern S&W alternative to the Sigs, Brownings, Berettas, Rugers, CZs, or whatever, sell?
It would... the issue seems to be more of a case of S&W corporate not being able to figure out how do whatever all of those other folks have have managed to do, in order to make it work/profitable for them.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:00 PM
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the question is could a modern S&W alternative to the Sigs, Brownings, Berettas, Rugers, CZs, or whatever, sell?
It would... the issue seems to be more of a case of S&W corporate not being able or willing to figure out how do whatever all of those other folks have have managed to do, in order to make it work/profitable for them.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:22 PM
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With all this talk of "economics" and "statistics" it makes me wonder.....why would S&W have reintroduced so many models of revolvers in the Classic line if it wasn't profitable? Here is a line that absolutely cannot depend on any type of govt contract at any time......yet these guns sells quickly and at steep prices.

Who's to say a new 3rd gennie couldn't do the same?
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:45 PM
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Well, if you arrange it, I'll take two new R3 4506s with INTEGRAL light rails. I'll pay $1500 each and do so gladly. If you can get the trigger and hammer to be flash chromed I'd prefer that, but won't be picky.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:25 PM
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Brand new 3900's at this place
http://www.standardlaw.us/
And by the way where are all the pics!
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:27 PM
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Who's to say a new 3rd gennie couldn't do the same?
I'll prove it right here.

Which gun should S&W re- make?

The 1006? The 4506? A 5906 re-issue?
Fixed sights? Novak's? Gi-style ? Adjustable w/Rabbit Ears? Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon Steel? Hard Chromed? Double stack? Single Stack? Compact frame? Full size frames?
At one point there were so many 3rd Gen models S&W made a "Wheel of Fortune" so that dealers could keep track of the models.


If S&W made a 4506 re-issue, the 9mm fans would be pissed the 5906 got passed over. They make the 4506 and 5906, and the 10mm guys are butthurt the 1006 didn't come back.S&W makes the 4566, and then the 3913 fans are wailing bloody murder.


If S&W makes them in Melonite the Stainless Steel fans will b!tch, and if they made em all stainless the Melonite fans will boo. Without bringing every single model back into production, its a crapshoot.

That being said, go ahead and start a group buy if you think i'm wrong. Best of luck to ya.

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Old 05-14-2013, 10:36 PM
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Of course I would buy every model that they would make. But first would have to be a 10mm, especially if it is made with all my wishes from my first post. In fact I'll take two, one for the safe you know.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:29 AM
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Silver smoke.....

I love ya kid.....but you're running out of arguments......

Once upon a time I also thought everything I was being taught in a college classroom was the absolute truth.

It isn't...... untold businesses have succeeded or failed on unintangibles......you never know.

You might want to stop looking at life in such extreme boundaries.......
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:45 PM
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Here's your chance boys, a NIB 3rd Gen for the taking. Step up, it could be yours.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/guns-sa...-gen-guns.html
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:50 PM
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That being said, go ahead and start a group buy if you think i'm wrong. Best of luck to ya.

It was tried here before, big fail, they couldn't even get 50 orders(I think they got 10). BUT.....
I'm in for a 39xx....er 59xx....er 107x......CS9 or 45....45xx....
who's collecting the funds and running the show?
No rail guns for me, thank you.
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:52 PM
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If they did come back I would totally buy a 4513TSW. I want one BAAAAAAAAAAD.
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Old 05-15-2013, 02:03 PM
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If anything could sell I think it would be small ones like the chiefs special. Maybe the 3913 - 4513's too. Just don't see it happening as much as I would like it.

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Old 05-15-2013, 02:19 PM
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A big city gun store I occasionally check has had a new stainless finish 4566 priced at $580 plus tax for over 2 years. The dust on it only got thicker through the last 6 months of panic buying. There’s only one hope for that 4566 drawing a young customer away from high capacity wonder plastic: my favorite of all the current U.S. presidents holding a 4566 over his podium proclaiming 90% of Americans want 4566s banned.
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Old 05-15-2013, 02:23 PM
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CZ is successful but no where near Glock. A lot of CZs are actually copies. When they first started exporting they didnt have any copyrights so a massive amount of companies just stole the design. Same would happen if Glock didnt have copyrights. In fact they sued S&W when the M&P became too close in design to Glock.

I like both polymer and steel guns. To me "feel" and "looks" never enter into the decision process. A perp is not going to stop because my gun looks nice or feels good to me. I simply want reliability and i have that with my M&P45 & G19. And its easier to carry a 22oz G19 over a 40oz S&W 5946

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