Another 3rd Gen historical question...

[TTSH]

As most of you know, I "slept" through the entire 3rd Gen production period... ... so from time to time I need to turn to "Team 3rd Gen" for a little historical insight into that period in S&W history.

The subject for today is the period from roughly the mid-1990's (i.e., after the start of the Federal AWB) to 2005/2006/2007 and the end of most 3rd Gen production. The Bible tells me that S&W plastic was out there in the form of the Sigmas and, later, the SW99's. Production of the 3rd Gen TSW's were getting underway as well as the introduction of the value line guns in blue/black... and eventually, in 2003, the value line guns in stainless steel. Then in 2005/2006/2007, it all seems to have collapsed as the M&P plastic wonders took over.

Question: What was civilian availability of 3rd Gens like in that time period... roughly 1996 to 2006? Could you walk into your local LGS like you can today and have your choice of practically any S&W pistol in production? Or were there shortages... waiting lists... some models in short supply or very hard to find? Did you have to order and wait? Or could you generally walk out the same day with your all-metal "score"? And what about the PC guns? Could you typically find them in shops? Or did they generally have to be special ordered?

There is another thread running about what "killed" the 3rd Gens. I'm not trying to dupe that thread. Rather, I'm trying to figure out how everything sort of fits together, production and sales-wise, with the infamous Clinton Agreement of 2000, the "fire sale" by Tomkins in 2001 and the expiration of the Federal AWB in 2004. Were dealer stocks healthy? Or were dealers holding back? In short, what the heck was going on in the last decade of 3rd Gen production?

We all know the effect that good ol' Gaston Glock had on S&W... but I'm trying to figure out the rest of the story.

Any takers?

[smith46wesson]

It's a story I wouldn't mind knowing more about. I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum, that's for sure.

[Sevens]

Wow, very interesting question! Unfortunately... I don't have much to add for an answer. My buddy bought a 1006 brand new in June-92 (at my suggestion) and it became my first S&W pistol 4 years later. I bought a pair of handguns mere weeks before the AWB went in to effect, one was a Taurus PT-99AF simply because I wanted a hi-cap they told me we shouldn't have.

The period that you are keyed in on... I was busy gettin' married & having kids.

That 1006 was my first S&W pistol and it was just 3.5 years ago that I added my second and the floodgate that followed. Before that 1006, all of my S&W energy was clearly focused on revolvers.

Great topic for discussion!

[N4KVE]

Back in those days, S&W was coming out with new models every other week. By mixing, & matching uppers from one gun with lowers from another, & the 4 digit model numbers, any combo could exist. This is why I don't believe in the rareness of certain model #'s, or the high value some people put on low production guns. A company like Lew Horton could call up S&W, & say take this upper, & put it on this lower, with that hammer, give it a special model #, & we'll buy 100. They sold for regular prices, but yet people who might own them now think they're the crown jewels. There was never a shortage of Gen 3 guns. GARY

[grcoffman104]

As Police in this country were moving to the wonder 9s as they were called. Second /Third Gen smith's were the. gravation point. I remember during the first gulf war us boys in the Texas panhandle heard that the pawn shops out side of Fort Bragg were full of Smith 9s as reserves called in from high paying jobs to war at gi wages hocked them for cash to leave at home. We pooled money and sent an officer who flew by wife being airline employee cheap or free. Can't remember. He scored 10 third gen 9s for way under officer new price. Shipped back to Dept. I got the lone 459. Lord wish I didn't sell it years ago. Was a great gun. MEMORIES!

[rwsmith]

I was asleep at that time, too. But when my interest in guns woke up I got introduced to 3rd gens. The one I have is a 5943, aluminum frame. Man, I love that gun. I think the Mounties used a 5946, but I'll have to look into it.

I just checked. The Mounties used it and the NY city police had it in their choice of three models permitted. The 5946 had a steel frame, but the same no safety, DAO, Magazine disconnect features.

[BAM-BAM]

Those were the years I picked up all my Performance Center autos.....94 to about 1999......still have 4 of the 5 .....two 6906 compact 9mm's (unmarked Shorty-9s) a SD-9 and a DPA 5906....... traded the CQB-4566 couldn't stand the billboard. Most folks seemed to think they were too expensive...... and PC guns could sit in the case for months or years............I got all mine at way below MSRP.

The golden age of .40............ the Shorty 40 was the most common PC gun ..... in shops.........if you could only have 10 rounds.... why have a 12 or 15 round 9mm with only a 10 round mag......... I had a stash and open source of used of hi-caps Smith mags from a local Police supply house......( Depts trading in Smiths for Glocks) so I stuck with 9mm and .45s. (they had hundreds of mags. and I was a good customer for guns...... so mags were $20-25. This was pre-internet so all sales were local)

Hi-cap 9mms were fairly cheap give the shortage and/or high price of hi-cap 9mm mags...... up to $100 in many cases.

Picked up 2 or 3 3913/14/NL's during that period....... IIRC not real common in LGS's everyone wanted hi-caps......but once Hogue came out with grips rubber/wood I was hooked..................

915s were only made for two years...... but seemed easy to get

IIRC most common were 6906s and 5906s

[loeman]

I guess I wasn't exactly asleep during that period but I sure was confused! All the different models, numbers, new calibers, plastic. etc. I just plain lost interest in S&W semi-autos. At the same time I became far more interested in classic S&W revolvers as well as what Sig and HK were offering. Heck it wasn't until I retired and had time to read and understand the qualities of 3rd Gens that I became interested. From my limited vantage point it seemed that S&W had totally lost their vision. Now looking at the period in retrospect, it wasn't as bad as I thought, it was just misunderstood.

[BAM-BAM]

Something I forgot to mention.......... the early/mid 90s were Glock years......

Glock's marketing to Police Depts....... was sweeping the nation........once the ATF declared the Glock a DOA gun.

Glock was making great deals to departments...... trade-ins and a few bucks for a new Glock and 3 or 4 mags...........

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by Sevens

The period that you are keyed in on... I was busy gettin' married & having kids.

And I was busy funding my kid's college educations (for the first half) and desperately trying to play 401k catch-up (for the second half) during those years. Those were also the heaviest work travel years of my career... all over the states and the world... before I was suddenly deemed too old, obsolete and expendable in late-summer 2006. It wasn't really a total surprise. I'd seen them do it to others before me.

There was certainly no time or money available for noisy, expensive hobbies.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by N4KVE

Back in those days, S&W was coming out with new models every other week. By mixing, & matching uppers from one gun with lowers from another, & the 4 digit model numbers, any combo could exist.

Originally Posted by N4KVE

There was never a shortage of Gen 3 guns.

That (last point) is what I'm trying to figure out... and not so much in terms of what could be ordered in a 3rd Gen... but more in terms of what you could walk into a LGS, see on display and buy. Was it more or less comparable with today? I think you're saying it was.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by grcoffman104

As Police in this country were moving to the wonder 9s as they were called. Second /Third Gen smith's were the. gravation point. I remember during the first gulf war us boys in the Texas panhandle heard that the pawn shops outside of Fort Bragg were full of Smith 9s as reserves called in from high paying jobs to war at gi wages hocked them for cash to leave at home. We pooled money and sent an officer who flew by wife being airline employee cheap or free. Can't remember. He scored 10 third gen 9s for way under officer new price. Shipped back to Dept. I got the lone 459. Lord wish I didn't sell it years ago. Was a great gun. MEMORIES!

Interesting story! Thanks for posting it.

[BAM-BAM]

I was lucky..... those were the years I spent a lot of time traveling (by car) around the state of Pa.......... most small towns has LGSs that I'd take 15-20 minutes to visit...... to see what was in the case.......picked up a lot of my current guns cheap during those years....... guns in small town Pa. were 20-25 to 30% cheaper than the same gun in Pittsburgh or Harrisburg areas......

For better or worse a lot of folks were trading into Glocks and other Hi-caps in 93 and 94 as the AWB went into effect.......putting a lot of revolvers and single stack guns in the used gun case.......

TTSH the only issue with seeing 3rd Gen guns in shops was there were so many options..........written up in the "Gun Rags" but not yet in the Shops...... and most shops couldn't stock all the options but could order you one.................

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

I was asleep at that time, too. But when my interest in guns woke up I got introduced to 3rd gens. The one I have is a 5943, aluminum frame. Man, I love that gun.

I know how you feel. It's why I own two of them (one cleaned up shooter, one collector grade clean!).

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

Those were the years I picked up all my Performance Center autos.....94 to about 1999......still have 4 of the 5 .....two 6906 compact 9mm's (unmarked Shorty-9s) a SD-9 and a DPA 5906....... traded the CQB-4566 couldn't stand the billboard. Most folks seemed to think they were too expensive...... and PC guns could sit in the case for months or years............I got all mine at way below MSRP.

The golden age of .40............ the Shorty 40 was the most common PC gun ..... in shops.........if you could only have 10 rounds.... why have a 12 or 15 round 9mm with only a 10 round mag......... I had a stash and open source of used of hi-caps Smith mags from a local Police supply house......( Depts trading in Smiths for Glocks) so I stuck with 9mm and .45s. (they had hundreds of mags. and I was a good customer for guns...... so mags were $20-25. This was pre-internet so all sales were local)

Hi-cap 9mms were fairly cheap give the shortage and/or high price of hi-cap 9mm mags...... up to $100 in many cases.

Picked up 2 or 3 3913/14/NL's during that period....... IIRC not real common in LGS's everyone wanted hi-caps......but once Hogue came out with grips rubber/wood I was hooked..................

915s were only made for two years...... but seemed easy to get

IIRC most common were 6906s and 5906s

Excellent report Bam! This is exactly the kind of first hand information I'm interested in. Thank God some of us were alive, awake and paying attention during those turbulent years for S&W!

I may even forgive you for "Bam-Bam's Formula" for such an interesting post.

I've always said that Roy needs to author one more book before he retires. If he does, I hope you will help him write it.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by loeman

I guess I wasn't exactly asleep during that period but I sure was confused! All the different models, numbers, new calibers, plastic. etc. I just plain lost interest in S&W semi-autos. At the same time I became far more interested in classic S&W revolvers as well as what Sig and HK were offering. Heck it wasn't until I retired and had time to read and understand the qualities of 3rd Gens that I became interested. From my limited vantage point it seemed that S&W had totally lost their vision. Now looking at the period in retrospect, it wasn't as bad as I thought, it was just misunderstood.

Great comment! Exactly the kind of customer impression of that turbulent period of so many changes and models that makes sense and rings true. If I were awake and paying attention, I'd have probably thought and acted exactly the same way. Thank you.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

I was lucky..... those were the years I spent a lot of time traveling (by car) around the state of Pa.......... most small towns has LGSs that I'd take 15-20 minutes to visit...... to see what was in the case.......picked up a lot of my current guns cheap during those years....... guns in small town Pa. were 20-25 to 30% cheaper than the same gun in Pittsburgh or Harrisburg areas......

Sounds like it was a great time to be a collector/accumulator with a little money to spend.

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

For better or worse a lot of folks were trading into Glocks and other Hi-caps in 93 and 94 as the AWB went into effect.......putting a lot of revolvers and single stack guns in the used gun case.......

And I managed to miss it all. Lucky me... NOT!!!

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

TTSH the only issue with seeing 3rd Gen guns in shops was there were so many options..........written up in the "Gun Rags" but yet in the Shops...... and most shops couldn't stock all the options but could order you one.................

Again, this goes right to the heart of my interest and why I started this thread. How does this endless variety of new models... the whole 3rd Gen "gun of the month" thing... tie back into the all the other things that were going on with S&W, internally and externally, during that crazy 10-year period? Was there a plan or purpose to it? A reason for it? What was driving these 3rd Gen business decisions in a world where plastic was about to take over? Was it Tomkin's? Was it the Clinton Agreement and the subsequent boycott? Was it an attempt to save all-metal pistol production? Or was the writing already on the wall?

Damn, I wish I had been paying attention back then!

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

TTSH the only issue with seeing 3rd Gen guns in shops was there were so many options..........written up in the "Gun Rags" but not yet in the Shops...... and most shops couldn't stock all the options but could order you one.................

Bam,

I imagine we bought some stuff at the same shops. Funny you bring up this point, as the first pistol I bought was a 915, and I bought it specifically because it was a) black and b) only had 3 digits in the model number. The store I bought it from probably had 20-30 different 3rd Gen models on display for sale. I knew I wanted a Smith, but my head was spinning as they were telling me all of the differences.

Looking back, how different my collection, hobbies, and life could've been had I purchased a Glock, or Ruger instead!

[surfgun]

The models one would typically see in that time period at a gun store would be like a 3913, 5905, 6906, 4006, 4506, 4516, 915, 910, 457 and maybe a smattering of DAO and performance center models like a Shorty Forty. Some of the obscure models were almost a special order proposition.

[N4KVE]

I got turned off by the fact that they were introducing so many variants every week. Back then I bought Sig, Glock etc. Only now when the faucet is turned off, & no more are being released can I choose what I think is the best of them all, so I chose a 3913 where the lower is parallel to the slide, put a 5906 hammer on it, & I believe that's the ultimate 3rd gen gun. I have a 645, & would never have the need for a 4506. Way too many sku's for a store to stock everything back then. The fact that S&W was being sold every few years, & one parent company sold toilets didn't help either. GARY

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by N4KVE

I got turned off by the fact that they were introducing so many variants every week. Back then I bought Sig, Glock etc. Only now when the faucet is turned off, & no more are being released can I choose what I think is the best of them all, so I chose a 3913 where the lower is parallel to the slide, put a 5906 hammer on it, & I believe that's the ultimate 3rd gen gun. I have a 645, & would never have the need for a 4506. Way too many sku's for a store to stock everything back then. The fact that S&W was being sold every few years, & one parent company sold toilets didn't help either. GARY

Ironically, I traded a 908 because someone had done the same thing by installing a hammer, and I liked the spurless. Different strokes...

[Mainsail]

I can't say I was asleep, but it was all the bad press about the 1st gen Smiths that put them completely off my radar through the 2nd and 3rd gens. I had written S&W autos off- would never even look at one when I was shopping. I figured Smith was good at the revolver (for which I had no interest) and dismissed their autos.

Then a couple years ago my dad gave me his early model 5906. Barely a month or two went by and I picked up a 1076 locally. I would probably buy another but the value I place on them is far below the value the owners are selling theirs for. I see a 45xx as a $350 gun, maybe $450 if it's almost perfect w/box and all. I can think of dozens ways (many not gun related) to spend $900 or more.

[N4KVE]

Originally Posted by Mainsail

I see a 45xx as a $350 gun, maybe $450 if it's almost perfect w/box and all.

I agree 1000%. A local put up a mint 645 for $500. I texted him right away telling him my highest offer would be $400, but that since he just placed the ad to see if someone would give him the $500. 8 days later he contacted me asking if I still wanted the gun for $400. I said yes. Oh, my $400 offer was the highest he got. GARY

[BAM-BAM]

1st gen guns were haunted throughout their production by the "early 39s weak/broken extractor issue" which was fixed by the -2s. NO Internet and few "Gun Rags" in the day....... to spread the word that the problem had been fixed.

Had a Asst. Director of my Security Dept. with a 39-2...... as his concealed carry ........ he loved and shot well. (I was young and not interested in a mere 9mm; I needed a .357 and/or .45)

2nd Gen; the hi-cap gun's grips were IMO "like holding a 2x4". Single stack were GTG except they were "low-cap"..... and all but worthless in the new "Wonder -9 World" we were living in...........


The 3rd Gen S&W autos were.......like in "The Three bears"........ "just right!!"

[oldRoger]

At the time, early 90's, in my area of Central Illinois, there were few in the few shops around. I special ordered my 1006.
Had I been able to see and handle a few, I might have been a buyer.

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

1st gen guns were haunted throughout their production by the "early 39s weak/broken extractor issue" which was fixed by the -2s. NO Internet and few "Gun Rags" in the day....... to spread the word that the problem had been fixed.

Had a Asst. Director of my Security Dept. with a 39-2...... as his concealed carry ........ he loved and shot well. (I was young and not interested in a mere 9mm; I needed a .357 and/or .45)

2nd Gen; the hi-cap gun's grips were IMO "like holding a 2x4". Single stack were GTG except they were "low-cap"..... and all but worthless in the new "Wonder -9 World" we were living in...........


The 3rd Gen S&W autos were.......like in "The Three bears"........ "just right!!"

I agree. My 59, from '73, while in pretty good looking condition, appears to have been shot a lot. Other than the 300 or so rds I have through it, I can't speak to any maintenance that was done on it, but I would imagine if it was a lemon, it wouldn't be running so well now.

[Sevens]

I have said this before but TOTALLY agree about 1st/2nd Gen doublestack ergo's and how they are completely different than a doublestack 3rd Gen.

While I really enjoy my 659 -- it is an absolute monster in my hands compared to my 5906. So much so... I believe if anyone ever wants to know "what were the improvements to a 3rd Gen?!", along with all the conversation and little nuances that are part of the discussion... that interested person should pick up a 59/659 and then immediately pick up a 5906 and the epiphany will follow.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by surfgun

The models one would typically see in that time period at a gun store would be like a 3913, 5905, 6906, 4006, 4506, 4516, 915, 910, 457 and maybe a smattering of DAO and performance center models like a Shorty Forty. Some of the obscure models were almost a special order proposition.

Originally Posted by N4KVE

Way too many sku's for a store to stock everything back then. The fact that S&W was being sold every few years, & one parent company sold toilets didn't help either.

Thanks guys!

Originally Posted by N4KVE

I got turned off by the fact that they were introducing so many variants every week. Back then I bought Sig, Glock etc.

Ironic, isn't it, how today Sig seems to be the one putting out a "gun of the month" variant... far too many of them for me to keep track of.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by Mainsail

I can't say I was asleep, but it was all the bad press about the 1st gen Smiths that put them completely off my radar through the 2nd and 3rd gens. I had written S&W autos off- would never even look at one when I was shopping. I figured Smith was good at the revolver (for which I had no interest) and dismissed their autos.

Then a couple years ago my dad gave me his early model 5906. Barely a month or two went by and I picked up a 1076 locally.

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

The 3rd Gen S&W autos were.......like in "The Three bears"........ "just right!!"

My divorce poverty-induced "deep sleep" began right at the end of the 1st Gens and beginning of the 2nd Gens. I don't recall the earliest of the 2nd Gens making much of an impression on me. In fact, I was very pleased to have found and purchased one of the last of the Model 59's produced. Looking back from today's vantage point, it really is the best of the 3rd Gens that do it for me. I'd like to buy a really nice example or two of a 2nd Gen... but mainly for historical significance and collection completeness.

Originally Posted by N4KVE

A local put up a mint 645 for $500. I texted him right away telling him my highest offer would be $400, but that since he just placed the ad to see if someone would give him the $500. 8 days later he contacted me asking if I still wanted the gun for $400. I said yes. Oh, my $400 offer was the highest he got.

Reminds me of a local gun I found. Seller advertises he wants $450-$500 (depending on which day of the week it is). I offered him $400 cash. Dude has so far ignored me and my offer. Too bad for him... it's still for sale. I went out and bought the same model from someone else.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by oldRoger

At the time, early 90's, in my area of Central Illinois, there were few in the few shops around. I special ordered my 1006.
Had I been able to see and handle a few, I might have been a buyer.

Another key point... thank you. This is why I am so interested in what local dealer availability of 3rd Gens was like back in that 10 year period before they were dropped. I think one of the best comparisons to today would be with the Sig all-metal guns. Around here, the dealers that specialize in Sigs and have many if not most of the all-metal gun variations available... they sell more! No big surprise I guess. The dealers that don't specialize and just stock 2 or 3 basic models... they sell a whole lot less. Duh!!!

Sig has gone through its ups and downs here... or at least so report the dealers. I find it interesting to watch. That said, I know Massachusetts is a weird market because of our "Lists" and "Regs." Same for the last of the S&W 3rd Gens. They had to be on our EOPS list and comply with the AG's Regs or NO GO.

[byxlaw]

A friend of mine "passed down" to me a 5906 (all steel) and a 15-4 he bought at a local [fishing gear] shop in mid-1991; selling point was LEOs used it. That shop's been chased away long time ago by local politicians...

On another note, I have seen a 1-st gen Mod. 59, alloy frame, nickel plated. This came from a retired LEO. It was carried a lot, and probably shot a lot. It shoots where aimed, and has the best DA trigger I have ever felt, even better than aforementioned 15-4 (which was hardly shot, I got ~30 38spl rounds with it - probably what remained of the 50-box); SA trigger is hair-thin. With this I conclude that even 1st gens could be custom-worked to still be competitive nowadays. As to the fit, this Mod. 59 was very comfy for me, and 5906 is more like 2x4 (or 2x3-ish).

[rwt1405]

I bought a 5946 and 3953 in late 1991 or early 1992.

I had a 669, that they replaced, when I decided to rid myself of all my DA/SA handguns and go to the same trigger pull for every shot.

I went thru a divorce in 1994 that caused me to sell the 5946 (along with many other handguns and rifles), but I kept the 3953 as it was my CCW.

I few years later I tried a Glock 30 and carried that for many years, until the weight and thickness caused me to start carrying my 642.

Recently I pulled my 3953 out of the safe, to help a few new shooters try some different guns, etc., and guess what? After shooting it again and shooting the X out of the target one of the guys asked me why I didn't carry that gun, to which I answered "what do you mean, it's once again my carry gun"!

[N4KVE]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Thanks guys!


Ironic, isn't it, how today Sig seems to be the one putting out a "gun of the month" variant... far too many of them for me to keep track of.

It's sad. Back in the day, Sig had the 220, 225, 226, 228, & 230. All fine guns. Now they have so many, it's crazy. And nowhere the quality of the old guns. Guns that were made in W. Germany, & imported to Tysons Corner Va, & Herndon Va were the best. Soon after they were imported to Exeter HH, the quality dropped. Now mim'd parts replace forged, & milled parts. And they got into the 1911 game. There's not enough 1911's out there to choose from? I still have the P220 I purchased in 1988. I wouldn't trade it for 2 new 220's. GARY

[JR78]

I was smack dab in the middle of the Great 3rd Gen Shuffle. Back in the 80's my agency carried Model 39-2's, then 3904's, then 5904's. By the mid-90's, Sig P228's & P220's were issued. Then came Glock 17's. The world stopped on it's axis. Administrators loved them, no safety, no de-cocker, pull the trigger and go bang. If I remember, my agency was buying them for around $265 with three magazines.

I think S&W could have pushed the DAO versions and engineered a poly-frame.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by JR78

I was smack dab in the middle of the Great 3rd Gen Shuffle. Back in the 80's my agency carried Model 39-2's, then 3904's, then 5904's. By the mid-90's, Sig P228's & P220's were issued. Then came Glock 17's. The world stopped on it's axis. Administrators loved them, no safety, no de-cocker, pull the trigger and go bang. If I remember, my agency was buying them for around $265 with three magazines.

I think S&W could have pushed the DAO versions and engineered a poly-frame.

Well, they did do that, didn't they (think: "Sigma" and later "SW99")? It just didn't work out quite as well as S&W had hoped until the M&P series. How do you beat a cheap plastic pistol that Glock could practically give away and still make money? And let's not forget the fact that they actually work.

But I know what you mean. Still, I shudder at the notion, still brought up occasionally in this forum, of a plastic-framed 3rd Gen. I'd rather that they just killed them off with dignity.