I picked up a LNIB 4516 no dash over the holidays. Back this past summer I asked a local dealer I do business with to keep an eye out for a clean 4516 no dash for me. In November he called to tell me he had an "unfired since the factory 4516 no dash come in."

He is primarily a Colt dealer and has sold me some very nice S&W handguns. This 4516 no dash, while in excellent, like new condition, has indeed been fired a bit. The previous owner placing an inspectors sticker back on the frame prior to trading it in. No matter, it is an excellent "random" specimen to do a test I've been thinking about for some time. I intend to "test" the reliability of the 4516 no dash under "average Joe" conditions. For a year, I will regularly shoot this 4516 no dash with different typoes of ammunition, different types of 4516 mags and under as many different conditions as I can manage.

Now be advised that this won't be one of those gunrag torture tests or internet "how many rounds till a breakage occurs" tests. This will simply be testing the reliability and durability of the 4516 no dash model under condtions likely encountered by everyone on this sub board. I will do my usual maintenance and report any issues encountered while shooting this 4516.

The gun is a 1989 TCS prefix 4516 no dash. It came with the original box, Hogue grips intalled, original Xenoy grip in the box, manual, cleaning kit (still in the bag) and 6 magazines. Three with red followers, two with yellow followers and one with a black follower. Interestingly, the early mags with the red followers are stamped "For use only in 4516 Not for use in 4516-1". I hadn't seen that before. I have come across 4516 magazines with yellow followers stamped "For use in 4516-1 only" previously. I intend to shoot this 4516 no dash with every 7-round S&W 45 mag I have. I also intend to try it with the 8-round mags of its cousins too.

This 4516 no dash has a bushing in the slide, narrow guide rod and the dual recoil spring set up. As member catshooter has related to us, all the 4516 no dash models had the dual recoil spring set up.

My intentions are as follows. I will clean and lube the 4516 tonight. I will check the recoil springs and replace if needed. Then I will gather a few boxes of 230 grain 45 ammunition from different manufacturers, both ball & JHP's and run them through it on Saturday. A friend has some old WWII ball he is bringing me and I've also got a coffee can of old discarded 45 rounds to run through the 4516 as well. I anticipate 300 or 400 rounds for the first range trip. This should be more than enough for an initial indication of this examples reliability. If all goes well, then I will qualify with it and carry it. I also intend to shoot a few IDPA matches with it to see how it performs. If all goes as planned, I figure that this time next year, the 4516 no dash will have between 1500 and 2000 rounds through it.

Why bother? Well, I and several others have had very good experiences with the 4516 no dash model. I have also read quite a few accounts from members who had bad experiences with their no dash 4516's. Several folks here and elsewhere, who's opinions I respect, have advised that the 4516 no dash model should "be avoided in favor of later revisions", or "used only as a collectors piece." So I am curious as to how a "pristine, out of the box", properly maintained 4516 no dash will actually perform.

I have a lot of time behind a 4516 and a lot of rounds down range through the model. The majority of it on a late production 4516-3. My experience with an abused confiscated 4516 no dash is what started my interest in this model of compact 45.

The 4516 no dash is the most often disparaged 4516, IMO. So I thought I'd do an unscientific "test" to see how "bad" it actually is. Stay tuned. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Looking forward to this one.....Zebulon

Are you going to super glue a rail on the front for night shooting?



Are you going to include pictures of the process? I know you have to have a camera by now

Lad

well this ride should be fun

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witty signature goes here

18DAI loving his 4516s and rightfully so!

I'll anxiously await your findings and pics of course.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

18DAI,
I'm looking forward to your evaluations of the 4516 no dash. I've come to really look forward to your posts regarding 3rd gens.

I bought a 4516-2 new in 1996. I've never liked the gun all that much. Not because of reliability issues such as FTF or FTE. I've never had one with this gun. My problem is that my accuracy is pretty bad with this gun in comparison with other 45s. Based on your posts and others, I bought a 4506 no dash. I am elated with my purchase. My/Its accuracy is excellent. I come home from the range pleased with myself and the gun.

On the other hand the 4516-2 has been a frustrating experience. All of my groups are high and right. When I compensate the groups are acceptable, but who wants to compensate? Anyway, I'm really looking forward to your shooting evaluations of the 4516 even though yours is a no dash.

Looking forward to it. Would like to hear how accurate it is compared to your other .45's.

This should be an interesting project which I'll follow closely, thanks for taking time to share it with us, 18DAI.

Let me ask the first question - how do we check recoil springs on a new gun when there is no history - no round count or age to go by? And just for a difficulty factor, with a double spring setup I suppose it is possible that the springs could be of different ages, too.

Not trying to sharpshoot you, but without some sort of spring testing gauge is this possible?

Subscribed

I'll be following this thread for sure. Looking forward to your updates

Cheers
Bill

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Because they don't make a .46

Very interesting, subscribed also. I have a 4516-1 and and looking at -3 .

I'm looking forward to hearing your reports with the 4516. I had one once and traded it off before I had much of a chance to really use it. … and I can't think of a better person for the test drive - your reports have always been just that - straight reporting. Have fun!

Jerry

Sounds like a good plan, looking forward to seeing (pictures required) how it progresses.

A few problems actually. I had to work late last last night. By the time I got to take down the 4516 for cleaning I was tired. When I picked it up at the shop I gave it a function check and a pretty good looking over. It appeared to be in excellent condition and function was 100%. I don't get excited about guns anymore.........well.....except for that 4 inch full lug PC 14-6 I came across at a gunshow a few years back.......so I was pretty thorough, I thought I was anyway.

When I took it down last night I noticed a few things. This 4516 has been worked on. Modified a bit. It may have even been back to the factory.....I'm not sure how one could tell that definitively.......but I have a strong suspicion.

The extractor has been replaced. The original guide rod has also been replaced with a late production one piece (non staked) guide rod. The recoil springs were brand new and still had all their blue paint. And perhaps the worst news is that it appears, to me, that somebody throated the barrel. Not very well either. I'm still looking at photos on the net (including the excellent pics provided by BMCM in another thread) to determine whether this was done in the factory, by a gunsmith, or at someones kitchen table with a Dremel.

Now upon observing these things I asked myself; "myself, why would someone replace an extractor, a guide rod and throat a barrel?" Well, I would do those things if I was experiencing FTF's and/or FTE's. So, was this one of those problematic 4516 no dash that I've read about on the gunboards? If so, did the owner send it back to S&W for them to correct it? And if I'm correct in my assumptions, is this 4516 no dash a candidate for a reliability test of a pristine example?

If it has been modified, as it appears to have been, then I think that will skew any results of my already unscientific "test". In any case, I cannot consider this particular 4516 no dash an unmodified random sample. Because it isn't.

Here is why I think so. The time this 4516 was built, 1989, S&W still paid attention to details. Generally, the extractors were finished in the same brushed satin finish as the rest of the slide. The one on my gun is highly polished, in contrast to the rest of the finish on the slide. Also, when someone replaces an extractor, it is almost impossible not to mar the finish in the hole where the pin sits. There are marks in the finish over the pin where it looks like a punch was inserted.

IIRC The guide rods with the staked heads were OEM at the time this gun was made. The later "one piece" guide rods, without the staked heads, did not come about until the late 90's or early 2000's IIRC. I think they were made after the advent of the TSW series.

The throating on the barrel I'm not sure about. This gun has some tool marks in the frame. I suppose it could be a poorly manufactured barrel........but the feed ramp is one of the nicest I've seen on a third gen pistol. Not a mark on it. Unusual, as I've often had to polish feed ramps on my 3rd gen 45's. The barrel throat appears to be relieved more to the left side than on the right side. There were also two light tool marks. One on each side, just above the relieved area. I'm looking at more pictures today and will compare them to my barrel tonight.

I'm still going to shoot it a bunch on Saturday and report back. I'm also going to stop and see my friend Ken at the LGS and let him examine it. He was a S&W dealer when these 4516's were first introduced. What he has forgotten about the 4516 series of guns I will never even know. I will see what his opinion is before I shoot it.

This gun has also been fired a bit. It was not carried at all, hence the like new appearance. The previous owner putting the inspectors sticker back on the frame was disingenuous. I'd guess around 500 rounds based on my experience with 3rd gen pistols. The lug on the barrel is shiny. The shiny ring that forms around the muzzle of the barrel at more than 400 rounds is starting to be apparent, though not well formed. The "square" that forms on top of the tang, just behind the hammer, at around 500 rounds is just starting to appear. So, not a brand new gun, "unfired since the factory." So what do y'all think? Still continue with a long term "test"?

Enough bad news. Here is the good news. This 4516 no dash reminded me of why I became enamoured with the design in the first place. It is THIN! 1911 thin. It actually fit a couple of my old 1911 holsters too. Also fit my 59XX series holsters as well. It was a little loose in the JIT slide for the 4513TSW.

It isn't very heavy at all. Especially after carrying 4506-1's and 4566's as well as the 4516-3 around for the last decade. It is slightly heavier loaded than a loaded 7 round 4513TSW. Not that much though. If I get down to property next week with both models I will put them on the digital scales and list the exact difference.

It POINTS! Old revolver guys will know what I mean by that. This 4516 no dash is lively in the hand. It handles easily and pints quickly and naturally.......with the Hogue grips installed, for me. Points as well, for me, as a 4 inch K-frame.

I can't wait to shoot it. I haven't looked forward as much to shooting a particular gun in some time. I'm hoping this gun shoots a good as it looks and feels. Sort of reminds me of my 3913 and 3906. Very thin and just the right size and weight for a carry gun.

Oh, Hill_Country, to answer your question. I have new in the bag springs for my S&W 45XX series guns. The way I test to see if they need repacement, in the compact guns, is to lay the springs in the gun out alongside the new springs. If the used outer spring has a 1/4 inch or more set to it, I replace it. I think member Fastbolt taught us that rule of thumb.

I don't know any other way to test if springs need replacing except to watch for certain failures to occur in the guns function. Perhaps BMCM or Fastbolt can provide more info.

I will report back Monday on how this 4516 no dash performed on its initial outing with me. Hopefully, it will take a jack hammer to get the smile off my face.

Please let me know if y'all think continuing with the extended test will have any value, given the developements with this pistol. Maybe I just need to find a truly NIB example before conducting such an evaluation. Hey, any excuse will do to buy another, right? Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I'm wondering about your guiderod. Thing is, I've never seen a 0.236" (skinny) guiderod that wasn't solid one piece stainless. While the fat (0.290") ones come in several varieties ie. staked steel & aluminum and solid steel, I've only seen the slim ones as solid stainless.

I remember seeing a post about guiderods some time back and it took a bit of forum rummageing 'till I found it. post #28 by Fastbolt in this thread. Only the skinny one is non-staked one piece.
3rd Gen Obsolete?

AFAIK, the no-dash guns were equipped with the nested spring set from the beginning which leads me to believe your guiderod could be original.

Does your extractor look anything like either of these?

I've got several around here with extractors that nowhere near match the slide finish. Most commonly I see shiny brushed on the extractor flat and satin bead-blast on the slide. Of course punch marks around the pin are evidence of someone messing with it or at least an attempt to. Take a close look a the extractor hook. Use a loupe if you have one and look for signs that it's been messed with. Compared to your other 45's can you see anything different? Polishing? Evidence of filing or dremeling?. Aside from replacing a broken extractor the only other reason to remove it would be to adjust the tension by in effort to correct a function problem.

Could very well be that it did go back to S&W for some work. Is not S&W required to keep records of guns that come in for work? Might be worth the time sitting on hold to speak to S&W and see.

Cheers
Bill

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Because they don't make a .46

18DAI, thanks for taking us through the process you go through with a new weapon - I never fail to learn something new from your reports.

While the original test goals may have shifted a bit, I hope you'll continue to share your experience with this new pistol as you get to know it. This thread is already a good example of the little bits of knowledge which you and Bill take for granted, but which many of us will benefit from in the future.

Thanks and keep it coming.

FWIW, my 4516-1's extractor (1991) is shiny like the top slide in BMCM's picture. When I first got mine & stripped it down to inspect/clean it, I considered removing the extractor to check/clean under it as this was a area our Ruger SRxxC's have seemed to accumulate debris in, but after looking closer I decided not to. Maybe your previous owner was so motivated?

No matter which way you go on this, let us know how it performs in regular use.

Thanks from me, too! I recently picked up my first S&W .45 (a nice 457) and I suspect I'll learn a lot that applies to more than one model.

18,

What an excellent test!

What a pity the pistol may have been altered and has indeed been fired.

I can agree with every word that BMCM has posted. All of my no dashes had extractors brushed like his in the pic. The punch marks around it may, or may not be evidence of it's removal. Maybe the last owner thought to remove it to clean behind it, tried, discovered that it wasn't as easy as he first thought and quit while he was still ahead.

We are sorely testing my memory here, but as I recall on all the no dashes I've owned the recoil spring guides were all one piece. Of a sort. On the end that seats on the barrel there was a staked in spring loaded pin. Small diameter with two nested springs.

I would agree with your round count assessment. Pity but oh well. Five hundred rounds certainly won't hurt it, just a good start on it's break in.

Without pics ( ) it's hard to tell about the feed ramp.

At any rate I'm all in favor of your test and think it's a great idea. I haven't seen a no dash in many years and would love to find one.


Cat

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Think for yourself.

I'm lookin forward to this! I just found a 4516 no dash at a local pawn shop, but am holdin off till 18DAI shoots his!

I remember Massad Ayoob doing a test in one and how he stated that Smith might have screwed up the reliable .45 on the planet by makin it smaller.
So I'm grabbin some hot dogs and a few beers, and am waitin patiently...
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

All went well Saturday with the 4516 no dash. I fired 341 one consecutive rounds without failure. Here is a breakdown of what I used. All were 230 grain.

100 rounds Federal
100 rounds WWB
35 rounds PMC
28 rounds Winchester Ranger RA45T
50 rounds unknown manufacturer WWII vintage
28 rounds mixed (Hydra-shok, Golden Sabres, Speer Gold Dot, Speer Lawman.

I used all the original mags that came with the gun plus two of my 7-round range mags and my 7-round "carry mag" with the rounded 4513TSW baseplate installed on it.

It was EXTREMELY cold Saturday AM here. Colder than charity. The Crown Vic said it was 23 but the RO and weatherman both said 19. Anyways it was real cold. I use TW23b grease so I didn't anticipate any problems with freezing lubricants and experienced no troubles.

The trigger in DA was smooth but stacks a little at the end. In SA it was crisp and a bit light. Twice I inadvertantly fired a second shot when I had not intended to, while coming out of recoil. I've had that happen with a Walther PPQ I owned, but never with any S&W....other than that shield I tested.

I shot the 4516 every which way including loose trying to cause a malfunction. Fast, slow, limp wristing, light hold, upside down, mixed different rounds (ball and JHP) in an old weak mag, one handed, with gloves on, nothing phased it. It just ran and ran well.

Ejection was a little weak, IMO. The brass kind of piled up right around my right foot (I'm a lefty).

Accuracy was good, although by the time I started shooting for accuracy my hands were getting numb and I had gloves on. Also the range pulley system was acting up and would not go beyond around 12 yards. Best group was around two inches at 7 yards, in slow fire, with the RA45T. No surprise to me as all my 3rd gen 45's like that round best.

I did do two 5X5X5 drills using the 4516. This is where you place a 5X5 target at five feet from you and dump 5 rounds into the 5X5 square in 5 seconds or less. Its a good measurement of a carry guns utility and accuracy. Also a good measure of the shooters ability to control his carry gun.

On the first try I missed low twice and high once. On the second I missed low once and high/right once. But again, it was VERY cold, I had been at it for over 90 minutes and was pretty much numb all over. So it was definitely me, not the gun. In fact at that point I was regretting doing this and ready for my "test" to be over for the day.

I did find that the 4516 no dash had substantial felt recoil, for me, using basically all the rounds I fired. Federal 230 grain ball being the least...... objectionable........noticeable. Perhaps it was the cold, or the gloves, or a combination of both. but in any case my hand swelled up Saturaday afternoon and ached enough that I took an Advil. I have a visible bruise today, right where the tang kept pushing back into my hand. The 4516 no dash was wearing rubber Hogues.

So, all and all I think that 341 rounds is enough to pronounce any gun reliable. Were I inclined I would have no problem putting tis 4516 no dash into a holster for use on or off duty. That said, I will be keeping my 4506-1, 4566 and 4513TSW V1 as my on and off duty guns.

I shoot the big 45's better (faster follow up shots and more accurately) than this particular 4516 and I prefer the 4513TSW V1, even though it is slightly thicker, as my favorite carry gun. I have carried this particular 4513TSW V1 for over a year now. Almost everyday, on and off duty and fired in slight excess of 1500 rounds through it in 2013. 100% reliable and accurate. Light weight, easily concealed, decock only with Novak Night sights. Great little pistol. Perhaps I will do another thread on my experiences with that particular example.

Someone asked me to rate this gun as to its accuracy in comparison to my other S&W 45's. Keeping in mind that I've only shot it this one time and with limited tests for accuracy, here you go.

PC Shorty 45 MKII
Melonite 4566
4506-1 (dash 3)
4516-3
4513TSW 7-round rail free
PC 4563 45CQB prototype
4513TSW V1
4516 no dash
PC 4566 45CQB
4566 LE trade in

Your mileage may vary and probably should. This rating by me is based on a comparison of best groups, from the above listed guns, shot on 3 inch Shoot-N-See targets, by me, at 10 yards, using RA45T, that I've collected and kept over the last three years or so.

Thanks for the info BMCM and Catshooter! My extractor does indeed look like the ones pictured.

I also should have used better terminology when describing the guide rod. It is a stainless steel guide rod and it is "one piece" as all S&W 3rd gen guide rods are. Where it differs from the OEM 4516 no dash guide rod is in the fact that it is not staked at the head with the four dimples as original 4516 no dash guide rods were.

It is from later manufacture, likely post 1997 in my recollection. No matter as the gun functioned flawlessly.

Badkarma 1 - Buy it, shoot it, love it. I will anxoiusly wait for your range report so perhaps we can compare notes.

I will continue to shoot the 4516 no dash periodically and report back here, for those who are interested in a longer term performance "test". Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

That would be me about the accuracy comparison. Thanks for the interesting write-up.

Lunch break over, now back to working on the dining room floor as I feel like I'm being stared at.

Thanks 18ADI, you are a stronger man than me spending that much time out in the frigid cold. I could have probably done a half hour to 45 minutes, but not double that. I see you are even in NC, that must have been pretty cold for that far south.

Overall though it's really nice to hear that even the no dash's are capable of running reliably. I know it was only a couple of hundred rounds, but in those condition and consecutively makes it impressive.

I look forward to future reads and results, thanks.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

Darn!

I was hoping if you were carrying the 4516 for a year you'd be looking for someone to babysit your 4513TSW....

I have its brother right here... They would look great together!!!

.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

I don't think that was the kind of endurance testing you originally had in mind, but impressive that both the gun and shooter continued to function in those conditions.

holy cow...341 rounds of .45.........good man....and I thought I was doing well with at 172 round test of 9mm....INSIDE......and I was wore out.....you made me feel like a wimp

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witty signature goes here

Your test has turned out about as I expected. I started buying '16s in about 1990 and ended up with four or five of the little gems. Please keep up the test, I like it.

I couldn't even begin to guess at the number of rounds fired through them. I cast and reload my own 45s and have done so since about '73 and I like to shoot. None of them ever, ever failed. I used every mag Smith built for them too, completely mixed and matched. They fed everything, usually semi-wadcutters like the H&G 68 or Lyman 452424.

The Lyman was my favorite. Heavy, it usually came in at about 255 grains. Eight hundred feet per second was easy to get and accuracy was always right there. Hits like the hammer of Thor.

I did find the pistols a bit heavy, but I sure like the all steel construction. Tough, tough, tough. I ended up replacing them all with Shorty 45s. Wish I'd kept a few though now.


Cat

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Think for yourself.

Concerning the brass landing at your feet, I gotta figure what I'm doing wrong (I hate chasing brass) but even with a 19# recoil spring my 4516-1 sends them a lane or two over, unless it bounces off my head first.

That was pretty gung-ho shooting that many rounds in the cold. I can see why your hand was unhappy about it.

Keep us updated.

Thanks all! I'm almost thawed out.

Catshooter, I have pretty much replaced my 4516's with 4513TSW's and only because I want to keep wear and tear off my Shorty 45 MKII. Or I would just carry it. Great pistols. I was thinking last night that the only way to improve on the little 4513TSW V1 would be to make the slide thinner, like the 4516 no dash slide.

BLUEDOT37, All of my S&W 3rd gen 45's toss brass alot further than this 4516 no dash does. I'm thinking there may have been a reason for the previous owner to remove the extractor afterall. I will be keeping an eye on its extraction pattern in the next range session. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

A very through wright up 18DAI, and I'll see if that '16 no dash is still at the pawn shop, right after I get down my driveway, 15+ inches of snow and I don't feel like shovelin!
If I get it, I shall wring it out, try some of the 185gr. stuff and see how it runs.
While were at it, can I use regular 645/4506 mags in it?
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Hi Badkarma1,

Yes, you can use the larger 8 round factory mags in the 4516 guns.

When I carry my 4516 I carry a full size 8 round mag on the off side for a reload. They work fine. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I have M-4516 no dash number TCP1804. I bought it NIB as soon as they came out, it was the first one that my local S&W distributor/law enforcement products dealer got, in November, 1989.

I put 250 rounds of W-W hardball through it on it's first outing. It ran faultlessly. Being all steel construction, it is fairly heavy for it's size and I didn't find recoil objectionable.

Over the next 2 years, my department transitioned from revolvers to semiauto pistols after a new sheriff was elected. We were given a pretty broad choice of guns to pick from, in 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, choosing between S&W second and third generation guns (they wanted the firing pin lock), Glock, Colt (Series 80 or newer, again for the firing pin lock), Berretta, Sig-Sauer and Ruger. As one of the department's "gun cranks" pushing for the transition, having a lot of the guns being considered, and also pushing to keep a wide range of approved choices available, I organized a lot of range trips to let fellow deputies try them out to see what they liked. A fair number of assorted ammo of all makers and styles was fired through my 4516 by an assortment of deputies.

I can only remember witnessing one stoppage with the 4516. A fellow had loaded it with .40 S&W cartridges by mistake. It fired the first round but the badly deformed case didn't cycle all the way out of the gun. A change to the correct cartridges, and all was well again.

All-in-all, I shot, and saw shot, about 750-1,000 rounds through my gun with just that one failure. I haven't shot the gun since about 1992, having gone in the 1911 direction with my own choice of duty and off-duty pistols.

Not a high mileage test, but I would carry my 4516-dash nothing with confidence.

Good, cause I got a cigar box full of them, and as much as I like my 4506-1 I prefer the somewhat lighter 645. And since I'm a bit flush after sellin that Glock, I'll see if its still there and bring it home. A nimble pocket .45 would be great this time of year!
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Great information! Thank you Buff!

I have been thinking about the recoil sensitivity I experienced Saturday. I've never had a problem with a 3rd gen 45, previously. I'm thinking that the distinct tang of the 4516 frame combined with the extreme cold and wearing gloves, all played a part.

That old WWII 45 ACP was pretty stout too. Dunno.....

Anyways it is a great little 45 that points like a dream and is VERY thin, compared to its cousins.

I will be shooting it again this month and intend to shoot an IDPA match with it next month if I don't have to work. Lots of less then perfect draws and shooting multiple targets with rapid mag changes will be a good indicator of reliability. Though I must confess I am already convinced that the 4516 no dash is a reliable model.

Badkarma1 Good luck! It does point and is VERY nimble. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

This past weekend I took the 4516 no dash out for a short lesson with a young female shooter who has decided - after shooting several different handguns/ in different calibers/ with different instructors - that she wanted to shoot a "45 carry gun" to see what it was like.

Someone suggested she contact me as I own several and we agreed to meet at the local indoor range and I would bring a couple for her to try. So, I thought why not kill two birds and bring the 4516 no dash to continue my "test" and give some compact 45 exposure to the shooter.

I also figured that if anyone can cause a compact 45 to misbehave it is a shooter new to shooting compact 45's.

The young lady showed up with 100 rounds of WWB. I had 50 rounds of Federal 230 ball to run through it. She ran a few mags through to familiarize herself with the gun. She shot it very well and liked it. Then she tried my 4513TSW V1. She didn't care as much for it due to the more substantial felt recoil. She shot more of a pattern with it whereas she was grouping pretty well with the 4516 ND.

Last gun she shot was the XDs45 range rental. She shot it better than my 4513TSW but not as well as the 4516 ND. She opined that it was a little too snappy for her although she did like the size. She then shot what was left of her ammo through the 4516 ND. She said she liked it best and inquired how much they cost and where to find one.

I advised her on a good price, the fact that they were out of production and sent her off to the auction boards.

After she left I ran 50 more rounds through my 4516. All told around 125 more flawless shots through it. No issues. Not one problem. Boring reliability. Good accuracy. Nice pistol.

As I cleaned it Saturday night I wondered whether I would even bother to continue my "test" of this pistol. I thought back to my first exposure to the 4516 no dash at that agency open range day. That was truly a random sample anyway you look at it.

It was random that I was there. It was random that there was a 4516 no dash confiscated by that agency and still in custody of same. The ammunition available was a mix of all kinds of factory fresh, filthy old rounds, roll your owns and everything in between. The gun was neglected/abused and filthy too. With no lube on it when I began shooting it. After a few hundred rounds I could detect the slide starting to "slow down" a bit and broke it down giving it a hosing with some Breakfree. The little 4516 no dash then went a few hundred more rounds that day. If you could stuff it in the one available mag, that little pistol ate it and shot it accurately. IIRC it was a little bit more accurate than the current example I own too. That event in and of itself was a very good test of that model pistol, IMO.

Anyways, I've already come to a few conclusions about the model 4516 no dash. After my personal experiences with the model, conversations with my friend Ken at the LGS (who was/is a S&W dealer) who knows more about them as he was selling them when they were still new and sent a few back to the factory, conversations with folks who built these and were there when they were made and member Catshooters experiences with several different examples of 4516 no dahs guns.

Here are my conclusions. Due to the way these guns were made, there was still a large amount of handfitting being done. The use of CNC machines was just beginning back then. Due to tolerance stacking some of these were not built to the same "standard" as other pistols of the same production run but built earlier in the day/week/month. Problems aften showed up in guns used by LE agencies. These agency guns, were they individual officer/agents guns or were they guns used for trianing seeing thousands more rounds per year than standard issue pistols? Dunno.

So I think that your odds of getting a 4516 no dash that functions 100% are very good.......better than good........excellent odds actually based on my experience and that of others.

Is there a problem or areas to watch for with these guns? Yes, the ejectors. I've read multiple reports on the net and in print of the early ejector tips breaking off due to stress fracture. Simply replacing it with the later ejector should eliminate that concern. Otherwise, just take the gun out and shoot it. Till you are content. Its a fun gun to shoot. Its not "too heavy" to carry either. It is also a good looking gun. S&W still made good looking guns with excellent triggers right out of the box back then.

So, theres my 0.02. I don't know if I'll continue to test this gun. I don't see much point in it as it is already apparent, to me, that there is no inherent reliability issue with this 4516 model gun. Besides, I want to shoot my 4566's and 645 more often than I currently am shooting them. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

thanks 18DAI......another no BS report that we all look forward to.....made me decide to stuff mine in the range bag with the newly acquired 4506-1 for a little lead slinging session today

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witty signature goes here

Nice update. I would still trade my plastic fanstastic wiz bang new police issue for a good old school real steel Handgun any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

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Plastic has no soul

Great update and write up. I hope your female friend finds a good 4516.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

Thanks for the work 18DAI....

I had an very early 4516...it worked well .... nice and thin..... but just too heavy..... even with an IWBH the slide "seemed" too short to hold the butt in....

Switched to an early Sig 245..... lighter.... extra 1/2 inch of barrel (sight radius and "Butt stabilizer".. but thicker than the Smith.

Switched back to a Tactical 4513 w/ 6 round mag........ modified a set of rubber Hogue's ...... loved that gun... but could never find enough extra mags.(I like to have "at least" 6/carry gun).... so

I'm back to Sig's 245....................... what can I say.....I think the 4566 is the "best of the breed" but the weight and long butt make it awkward for CC.........

I generally carry a 3913NL.....LOL

"with a young female shooter"

I've learned not to get my hopes up for pictures of your firearms but C'mon man!

No pics of a young gal shooting a 3rd gen S&W....

Lad

At 52 years of age, when I refer to someone as "young" that covers a lot of ground.

Trust me when I say that some things are better left to the imagination. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I think cold weather greatly amplifies perceived recoil with a handgun.

I think that pre-shooting perceptions also greatly affect our expectations. I took my younger, smaller (5'5" tall, 130 pounds) sister shooting a few years ago. She was looking to acquire a 'car gun' as she did a lot of travel by herself in some isolated areas. She had started out with her husband's Model 57 .41 Magnum, with nickel plating and an 8-3/8th inch barrel.

I told her that, outside of visual presence, high power output and the ability to use it if she lost her jack handle to her Toyota, she may find another handgun more useful.

I took her shooting with a Colt lightweight Commander and my S&W Model 4516. She did not "know" that these guns were hard kickers, that it took manly men to control the heavy .45 ACP cartridge. Some simple fundamentals, good ear and eye protection, and she caught on fast. She believed that both .45's were easier to control than a 4 inch Model 66 with 158 grain Magnums.

We both made the same discovery, that for ourselves, and our medium hand sizes, the short grips of the 4516 made the gun feel very top-heavy, like the bore center was way above the grip, that the gun was somehow less secure in our single hand grip. I still believe it has this feeling, although I think it is something that can be resolved with more experience or, like me, shifting to the 1911 pattern of handgun.

I really like the Model 645 and the family that descended from them, the 4506, 4505, 4516, 4513, 4566, 1006 and the others. Very high level of ruggedness and reliability.

I served as a detective in my department's robbery-homicide unit for a few years. Several of the deputies bought 4516 and 4513 pistols as their choice of compromises.

Buff I agree. On all the points you made. I did notice that in the 50 degree indoor range my hand neither swelled nor hurt afterwards. Then again I only shot 50 vice 300+. That may have had something to do with it as well.

I find my 4516-3 to be top heavy. Especially when compared to my 4566. I don't find the 4516 no dash to be especially top heavy, to me. In fact, when I compared the 4516-3 alongside the 4516 no dash, I found my 4516-3 to be rather.......ungainly. Thick, slower handling than the no dash and rather top heavy.

It did make me recall all the things I really liked about the 4516 no dash I originally fired back in the day. I find the no dash to be slightly thinner, fast handling and a natural pointer, for me and a little lighter in weight.

I liked your comments on pre-shooting perceptions as well. I agree again.

Back when I was a rookie my training officer (and later my partner for 5 years in robbery homicide at the DA's office) told me "kid don't ever prejudge anything. I don't care if its mopes, crime scenes, cars or women. Just look at what you are seeing. Take it all in. Keep your eyes open and your mouth shut. Be a great listener. When you have looked at everything there is to see and heard what there is to hear, then formulate a decision about what you have seen and heard. Not before." Wise counsel. He was a great detective and better friend. So I try hard not to let my pre shooting perceptions effect my actual shooting conclusions.

I also never pre judge a new shooter. I do not give paid instruction as I am not currently a certified instructor. My lawyer and long time shooting partner has a fit about things like. But when someone needs assistance I try to be helpful.

So I sometimes will meet folks who have been sent to me, on a limited basis, to try and help them. Either with a shooting problem, or for someone to experience an excellent but out of production gun that may be right for them.

Evidently this woman had tried different handguns and instructors and was a bit frustrated by the experience. She told me that one instructor had told her that; "...45's were not for women. Get a .380." I was a little surprised by that. But just a little.

She contacted someone who knew me and knew I had some steel framed TDA compacts, which is what she was looking to shoot, so thats how I wound up in the mix.

Anyways, I made another convert to S&W 3rd gen pistols. And once again proved that the much talked about and feared/loathed "DA to SA transition" is really a training issue and a lot of internet bally-hoo. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

18,

You speak the truth. Actually a bunch of 'em.

I started with '16 no dash. When the dashes started coming out I held a few. Bleh.

As you've pointed out, the differences are small. Two ounces, a few cuts on the frame & slide that the dashes don't have. Not much, but enough. As we all know, the devil lies in the details.

The no dashes feel better, point, handle, balance and just look better.

Dang you, now I want another and I haven't even seen one for five or six years!


Cat

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Think for yourself.

Saturday I experienced the first malfunction with the 4516 no dash. Let me say up front, at the risk of sounding like one of those gunrag writers, that the malfunction was mag related and not gun related. Completely my fault too. As I knew this particular magazine to cause problems but loaded and used it anyway.

I went with my shooting partner to the local indoor range on Saturday AM. He wanted to shoot a LNIB 4566TSW he got from the Henrico County VA Sheriffs office. I figured I'd throw a few more rounds through the 4516 no dash.

I was in a hurry and reached into the plastic tub I keep my "range only" 7-round mags in and grabbed four. Without looking at them. Turns out, one of those mags I grabbed was the same mag that caused my only other S&W 3rd gen 45 stoppage. In my 4516-3 no less.

That was around 4 years ago. It happened during annual qualifications. I messaged member Fastbolt during the lunch break and followed his instructions, replacing the mag spring and follower. But I never "trusted" that mag again, so I marked its baseplate and threw it into the range only tub. Where it was used frequently for some time.

We were shooting drills when the malfunction occured. The drill we were shooting was double taps on the head of a Mixson target at the seven yard line. My shooting partner had been doing the drills with his new to him model 10-5 snub, so I was only loading 6 rounds in my mags as well.

I fired two doubles and then one single, then as I was coming out of recoil I noticed the bullet protruding from the top of the slide and blocking my view of the front sight. My first reaction was to do a malfunction drill and clear the stoppage, but I caught myself. I put the gun down on the bench and examined it while it was cooling off. The malfunction was a text book example of a stovepipe. The cartridge held vertically between the slide and barrel hood. Just the bullet protruding.

Ammunition in that mag was Federal 230 grain ball. The stoppage occured at round 44 of the session. I picked up the mag after clearing the stove pipe and saw the tape on the bottom of the baseplate, confirming that this was a problem magazine. Hence the range only restriction I put on it. Then I checked the guns ejector and the extractor. Both OK. Had to be this problematic magazine.

Sunday I decided to verify my suspicions about that mag being the culprit. I got two of my "for serious" carry mags - both with black followers, two range only mags with yellow followers and two range only mags with red followers. Plus the problem causing mag which had a fairly well used black follower in it. I took each one apart and examined them carefully. The following are my observations.

I've been told here for some time that all the magazine springs for the 6, 7 and 8-round S&W 3rd gen 45's are the same spring. That may be true today, but evidently was not the case in the late 80's and early 90's.

The magazines with the red and yellow followers have magazine springs that have 12 bends in them - top to bottom. The current production magazine spring has 14 bends. I is over a full inch longer than the earlier springs as well. In addition, the 12 bend springs are different from the current 14 bend springs at the top as well. On the 14 bend springs the circle or coil at the top - which goes under the front of the follower - is "even" or "in line" vertically oriented with the other coils in the spring.

On the 12 bend springs from the mags with the yellow followers, the top coil or circle which goes under the front of the follower is set back almost an 1/8th of an inch from the vertical orientation of the coils.

Even stranger, on the mags with the red followers the top circle or coil which goes under the front of the follower is bent up at almost a 45 degree angle. Seemingly propping up the front edge of the red followers.

The problem mag contained a slightly worn black follower. I recall placing it in new around 4 years back. But the spring I pulled out had only 12 bends in it. It was similar to the springs from the mags with the yellow followers. Except it was 1/2 an inch shorter than them, from excessive use. I also noticed that the feed lips on this problem mag are slightly spread at the rear. This mag was one of five I picked up for $7 a piece several years ago at the local cop shop. I more than got my moneys worth out of it. I did strip it for the follower and base plate and bagged the mag body and used spring. It won't be used again.

I went to my spare mag springs, which I keep in a large Zip-loc bag. I have around 14 springs. Sure enough, I found 3 more of the early 12 bend springs in there. So I segregated them from the newer 14 coil springs and placed them with the range only mags.

So thats my take on the malfunction. Not the guns fault. My fault. You must use magazines with springs that are fairly fresh to assure 100% function in these little 4516 guns.

The little 4516 no dash went on to fire 45 more trouble free rounds that day giving me 89 more shots to add to its total. These were a mix of Federal 230 ball and Speer Lawman 230 ball. For those keeping score, 341 + 125 + 89 = 555.

If we count the probable 500 rounds fired before I got this pistol, we are over the 1000 round mark with one stove pipe caused by a weak mag spring. Thats a very reliable gun in my book. I have enough confidence in it that I have been carrying it off duty for the last few weeks. I intend to try to run an IDPA match next Sunday with the 4516 no dash. If all goes well I will qualify with it during my in service training scheduled for the 9th, 10th and 11th of April.

A couple of asides here. The front white dot sight on the 4516 no dash had been bugging me. Through neglect or poor storage it had become a yellow/tan color. At least it had not fallen out as seems to be common with todays S&W pistols. So I went to Target and picked up an I <heart> Nails pen. Gloss white. These are what females use to draw on their fingernails. They are in the beauty section at Target. Around $7 IIRC. Much better than a paintbrush as it is a fine point tipped pen. Made the front white dot on the 4516 no dash just like new.

I also got the best concealment holster for a compact 45 that I think I've ever owned. I got it off Fleabay for $27 shipped. It is a LH BLK Don Hume number 33 007K. Open top belt scabbard. Fits 4515 no dash, 4516-3 4513TSW w rail as well as the rail free 4513TSW.

I like it for the 4516 no dash best as with the other guns the wider decock paddles and thicker slide stops spread the protective "wings" at the top of the holster reducing its concealability.

I have a few other thoughts on shooting this 4516 but I will post them later. Regards 18DAI

Oh, for those constantly harping for photos, here you go. The "target" on the bottom left was shot at the 10 yard line with 6 rounds of Federal ball. It is the scoring target which is printed up at the left of the B27. Aim small miss small. One accurate little 45!

Attached Images

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I went to the annual "no officer left behind". I qualified with the 4516 ND as an "alternate duty gun". Only S&W present out of a class of 19 shooters. The rest of the duty guns were all Glock 30's. We fired 50 day and 50 night shots. Speer Lawman 230 grain ball.

I scored 98 day and 100 night. And this one doesn't even have night sights.......yet.

No malfunctions. No issues. My shooting hand did get a little sore again. I think it is a combination of the 4515 ND's tang, the Hogue grips and my crush grip on the gun. Dunno....

I don't have the problem shooting my 4513 series guns.

I heard the usual "What is that?" "Is that a Sig?" "I didn't know S&W made a metal gun!" "GEE thats heavy!" "Is that a customized pistol?" "I wish I had one so I could shoot 100!"

That last statement brought to mind what my Grandma used to say to me. "Ya know how you get to Carnegie hall? Practice!". Wise woman. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Great story. Customized pistol, is it a Sig, funny stuff.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

I fired another 100 rounds of Federal 230 ball through the 4516 ND last week. No malfunctions, no problems at all. That makes 755 rounds to date for those keeping score.

I have changed the grip. I took the Hogue rubber grip off and replaced it with the OEM Delrin grip. Then I put a "Glock sock" or Hogue slip on grip if you prefer, over the OEM grip.

Keeps the slim profile for carrying concealed while anchoring the gun in my hand during shooting. I will take it to the range another couple of times before I am sure that this is my preference on the 4516 no dash. So far, I like it!

I have been carrying the 4516 ND off duty all week as well. It replaced the 3914 I had been carrying recently. The 4516 ND is almost as thin as the 39XX series gun and only a bit heavier. I have been using a DeSantis "sticky" holster IWB and am satisfied with this arrangement. I may just continue to carry the 4516 ND for the rest of the summer. Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: Does anyone have a copy of the 4516 article in the March 1990 GUNS magazine? How about the Mas Ayoob 4516 article in the 1990 AH Annual? If you could Email me a PDF of either it would be much appreciated!!

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

18DAI.... not many people actually "see" my EDC; which is a 3913LN with Hogue checked wood grips; and generally carried with a flush fit 7round factory magazine........can't tell you how many times over the past 20 years I been asked "Who built that for you?"....I even been asked if it is an ASP!

Then everyone wants to know where to get one..... when you tell them that S&W haven't made them in 20 years ( I had to look it up/ can't believe it's been that long)....... their first question in "Why not??"

One time showed a buddy my 3913NL, 3914 and 3913 all with Hogue wood grips..... all he could say was "D---"

I had an early 4516 no dash.... but it was just too heavy ( as a side note; I found the 4566 with the longer barrel easier to carry IWB than the 4516).......then one of the early TSW guns w/ the 6 round mag........ but extra mags were too hard to find...........and the three I had were not enough.......... Ended up going with a Sig 245 for winter carry if I want a .45.

This has been a very interesting and informative read, thanks for taking the time to write it all up.

I had a similar reaction of "what is that?" when I shot my Shorty 45 MK2 at a IDPA match.

Way off thread..but...... haven't had it out in years but the PC SD-9 always drew a whole lot of attention. And a few BIN offers.........LOL