4566 TSW integral rail group buy

[KurtC]

Anyone have an update on this? Seems like it's been a few months.

[KurtC]

Anyone have an update on this? Seems like it's been a few months.

[KurtC]

Am I the only forum member who ordered one?

[forrest]

No you aren't the only one. Hopefully they will be here soon. I am going to email Stu for an update myself as I really want to get my hands on these.

[KurtC]

Here in New Jersey I have to apply for a purchase permit, which could take a month. I don't want to apply too soon, because they expire if not used.

[oldRoger]

I ordered one as well. The group order was placed on 6/18 thats 95 days ago and running. Since the initial S&W promise was 45-60 days, I think S&W owes us a expected ship date.
Their production control dept. must know.

[4506517]

So I am curious about this group buy. With all the talk about getting S&W to make a run of 3rd gens, how many did it take to get this off the ground? What was the cost? I find this intriguing because this speculated on monthly here.

I certainly don't mean to bring this back from the grave, but I, as I'm certain others, would love to hear the details on this group buy.

[t-bird]

Something's need to be brought back from the grave and this is one.

[Fastbolt]

You guys talking about having been able to piggy-back on that last run of 4566TSW M's (Melonite)?

I know a guy who bought one as an overrun. He's very, very impressed with the quality of it, and said it's an excellent example of the 4566TSW with all the latest refinements.

[4506517]

I have a WVSP 4566TSW. It is very recent production, not even 2 years old. I'm not at home at the moment but the date on the night sights and fired casing envelope were 2013 if I remember correctly.

[oldRoger]

This group buy was a scam! The order was never placed with S&W. With some pressure brought to bear by various very helpful people I believe everyone’s money was eventually refunded.

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by 4506517

I have a WVSP 4566TSW. It is very recent production, not even 2 years old. I'm not at home at the moment but the date on the night sights and fired casing envelope were 2013 if I remember correctly.

Nice. Congrats.

I had an armorer's purchase program certificate I hadn't used, and was thinking about ordering one for a while, but just couldn't seem to get around to doing it.

Ditto a SW1911E I was also thinking about ordering (as if I need another 1911 ).

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by oldRoger

This group buy was a scam! The order was never placed with S&W. With some pressure brought to bear by various very helpful people I believe everyone’s money was eventually refunded.

Sorry to hear it turned out that way.

[scwv67]

A member on the Sig forum, who is also a S&W fan, received a reply to his email to Smith regarding production of all-metal pistols. He received the reply last month and among other things it stated the production of all-metal pistols was being explored.

Production costs were a concern and no decision had been made.

So...maybe it's not out of the question. I may just shoot an email myself.

[4506517]

I just do not understand why they even have to think about it. Colt, SIG, Springfield, HK....people are paying top dollar ($1500+) for some of their models. Heck, some folks will pay $2100+ for a polyframed MK23. It also strengthens the brand and adds credibility by showing customers that they do care about what the customer wants.

[scwv67]

I agree, but at least maybe they are thinking about it.

[J. W.]

Hopefully they really are thinking about it. I think for the guns to be a success they will have to keep the prices similar to Sig, $800-$1000.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by J. W.

Hopefully they really are thinking about it. I think for the guns to be a success they will have to keep the prices similar to Sig, $800-$1000.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

Depend what models they may decide to make.

If it's the newest of the TSW's, I'd not be surprised to see MSRP's of $1200 (or more). They aren't making much money on $800 for TSW's when it comes to LE guns.

If it's those, and short model runs, then I'd also not be surprised to see some price scalping.

If they keep them simple, bringing in some new variation of the Value or American Heritage Lines, making them with aluminum frames, no frills and needing less machine time? Sure, $800-$900 probably wouldn't be unlikely.

Remember, it's not just the checking and fitting needed for extractors & sear release levers that will take up labor hours from other guns, but the larger assemblies (manual safeties, slide stops) are received from vendors and then require further in-house machining & finishing at the factory. It's not just like they only need a CNC machine to pop out a frame or slide (at least 30 minutes each, last I asked), or have lots of extra barrels laying around in case they decide to make new guns.

I'd like to see them reconsider their cessation of the 3rd gen's, too. Do we want to them badly enough to be willing pay prices that might run to the cost of 2.5 or 3 M&P's for the price of 1 new TSW, though?

They're still months back-logged on high demand M&P's ... and the SW1911's are also in heavy demand (in Houlton, where the 3rd gen production capability was moved to, not to mention the S&W .22's and PPK's being made there for Walther, as well as the handcuffs).

We can cross our fingers and wait & see.

[Gunhacker]

Fastbolt... always enjoy your posts with the "insider" information about facets that most of us are not aware of, such as the need to do the final in house machining on vendor supplied assemblies.

I've now learned that I've been fairly naive in my thinking that S&W only sourced small parts, like springs, etc. with vendors.

I'm curious.. what are the large assemblies, slides?

Thanks...

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Gunhacker

Fastbolt... always enjoy your posts with the "insider" information about facets that most of us are not aware of, such as the need to do the final in house machining on vendor supplied assemblies.

I've now learned that I've been fairly naive in my thinking that S&W only sourced small parts, like springs, etc. with vendors.

I'm curious.. what are the large assemblies, slides?

Thanks...

Manual safeties, drawbars, hammers (with struts attached), slide stops, triggers, etc are all generally referred to as assemblies, being made up of smaller parts.

Slides can be assemblies when they're ... assembled.

Magazines are also "assemblies", when it comes to that, too.

S&W operates probably the largest heat-treating facility on the Eastern Seaboard. Their forging capabilities are legendary, as well.

They've been investing a fortune in new manufacturing capabilities in recent years.

Doesn't mean they can't out-source some stuff to other US companies, though ... or that they can't make forgings, components, provide heat-treating, etc to other gun companies.

Remember their purchase of Thompson Arms ... and their subsequent relocation of the Thompson Arms barrel-making equipment to Springfield?

It's usually been explained to me that S&W is always re-examining the delicate balance between using outside US vendors or in-house capabilities for all their myriad parts & components, juggling finite floor space against the manufacturing needs of the moment. These things can change at a moment's need.

FWIW, the frames for the M&P pistols are made by a long-time major plastics manufacturer with whom S&W has had a very good working relationship for many years. Easier to out-source the Zytel frames (and other plastic parts) to a US-based company that specializes in such things, right? Otherwise, S&W would have to build another plant.

BTW, I'm constantly learning new things like this virtually every time I attend another armorer class, or talk to another one of the men & women who have helped me learn about the company and its products over the years ... and my knowledge about this stuff barely scratches the surface, not being an employee of the company.

[Gunhacker]

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

Manual safeties, drawbars, hammers (with struts attached), slide stops, triggers, etc are all generally referred to as assemblies, being made up of smaller parts.

Slides can be assemblies when they're ... assembled.

Magazines are also "assemblies", when it comes to that, too.

S&W operates probably the largest heat-treating facility on the Eastern Seaboard. Their forging capabilities are legendary, as well.

They've been investing a fortune in new manufacturing capabilities in recent years.

Doesn't mean they can't out-source some stuff to other US companies, though ... or that they can't make forgings, components, provide heat-treating, etc to other gun companies.

Remember their purchase of Thompson Arms ... and their subsequent relocation of the Thompson Arms barrel-making equipment to Springfield?

It's usually been explained to me that S&W is always re-examining the delicate balance between using outside US vendors or in-house capabilities for all their myriad parts & components, juggling finite floor space against the manufacturing needs of the moment. These things can change at a moment's need.

FWIW, the frames for the M&P pistols are made by a long-time major plastics manufacturer with whom S&W has had a very good working relationship for many years. Easier to out-source the Zytel frames (and other plastic parts) to a US-based company that specializes in such things, right? Otherwise, S&W would have to build another plant.

BTW, I'm constantly learning new things like this virtually every time I attend another armorer class, or talk to another one of the men & women who have helped me learn about the company and its products over the years ... and my knowledge about this stuff barely scratches the surface, not being an employee of the company.

WOW... much more going on behind the scenes than imagined.

After you mentioned it, I remembered reading something, somewhere, last year that S&W also provided forgings and other services for other firearm companies and non-firearm related industries.

Thanks again.

[nocents]

Originally Posted by Gunhacker

Fastbolt... always enjoy your posts with the "insider" information about facets that most of us are not aware of, such as the need to do the final in house machining on vendor supplied assemblies.

I've now learned that I've been fairly naive in my thinking that S&W only sourced small parts, like springs, etc. with vendors.

I'm curious.. what are the large assemblies, slides?

Thanks...

Gunhacker is spot on Fastbolt....we all learn from your posts....personally, I look forward to your posts first when I log on......thanks

[Fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Gunhacker

WOW... much more going on behind the scenes than imagined.

After you mentioned it, I remembered reading something, somewhere, last year that S&W also provided forgings and other services for other firearm companies and non-firearm related industries.

Thanks again.

Yeah, although sometimes there may understandably be non-disclosure agreements in place at the request of the other gun company "client", too.

I was told last year about another "major gun company" who had contracted with S&W for some finishing/heat treating. (No names given.)

Of course, it's not just other gun companies who are clients for their services. I forget the specifics, but some years ago I was told they were contracted to forge/manufacture some critical portion of some aircraft landing gear.

Also, S&W has always seemed to take some pride in owning their own MIM molds, even though the MIM house(s). I'm also told the MIM houses they use are located in the US (versus being located off-shore, FWIW). This was first discussed and explained to me in a class in the 90's, and the point being made at that time was that the company engineers felt that owning and having control of the actual MIM molds being used was a good way to control the quality of the parts being produced. The MIM process is one thing, but it takes good molds to make good parts, too. Not a good place to cut costs and scrimp pennies.

If I remember right, the MIM mold used to make the then-new 3rd gen MIM sears (referred to in-house as the "Super Sear") would throw 75 sears, and had cost the company almost a quarter of a million dollars.

Every time they have a new mold made, they're spending significant money. The revised, stronger M&P striker is a MIM part, replacing the original machined steel part.

Probably easier & less expensive to make the subtle angle or dimension changes, bends, tweaks or welded additions to the stamped steel parts (like the M&P slide stop lever assembly, in this case), whether in-house or out-sourced, right?

[Fastbolt]

BTW, I appreciate the sentiment about some of my posts, but always remember that I'm NOT a S&W employee, nor am I a licensed gunsmith, factory repair tech, engineer, etc.

There have been any number of S&W company folks who have graced this forum from time to time, as well as much more experienced armorers and licensed gunsmiths.

I just happen to have the time to browse and post, and an apparent collection of trivia gained from my modest years as an armorer, to add every now and again.

[Gunhacker]

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

I forget the specifics, but some years ago I was told they were contracted to forge/manufacture some critical portion of some aircraft landing gear.

Interesting... because I think it was an article related to aviation/aerospace where I saw mention about S&W. It may have also been where I learned that Ruger with their investment casting facilities, produces things such as jet engine turbine compressor blades, aluminum engine blocks and missile stabilizing fins.

Guess it shouldn't be a big surprise... after all, if S&W used to make toilet flush valves , anything is possible .

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by Gunhacker

WOW... much more going on behind the scenes than imagined.

After you mentioned it, I remembered reading something, somewhere, last year that S&W also provided forgings and other services for other firearm companies and non-firearm related industries.

Thanks again.

As Fastbolt said, S&Ws forging and heat treating facilities are legendary. The forging process is also noisy and shakes the entire building. They were busy stamping out 1911 frames the last time I was there, but they still forge the revolver frames as well. They do them in batches, of course.

The last time I was there (April 2012) they were making casting for Harley Davidson as well as some other manufacturers I couldn't identify.

The CNC machines were busy working on 1911 frames and slides.

Sadly, they've discontinued factory tours for regular gun owners, but I'd bet that some groups still do get tours. I'm just not that special.

[nocents]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Sadly, they've discontinued factory tours for regular gun owners, but I'd bet that some groups still do get tours. I'm just not that special.

Bill and Hillary???.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by nocents

Bill and Hillary???.

LOL! No, I'd guess that big clients get tours and maybe LE groups.

Too bad, I always liked going on the tours. Each of the guides was a retired long term employee who came in one day a week to do the tours. Since they had a variety of jobs, we'd get a different perspective each time. I always learned something new.

[vigil617]

Think of the PR boost they would get by offering tours to groups of S&W owners, such as members of this very Forum.

Or what an enterprising travel agent could do by setting this up...

Wonder if S&W does this for the SWCA or the Historical group from time to time?