I've never been a fan of DAO pistols. I always viewed them as a crutch for inadequate firearms training. One consistant trigger pull = easier to teach rookies to shoot adequately. Rather than teach them fundementals of trigger control and to shoot well.

I'm reevaluating my thoughts on DAO 3rd gen guns. The last revolver I qualified with and carried on and off duty was a 3 inch 13-3 rendered DAO with a slick trigger job and spurless hammer. A sweet shooting carry gun. Since I've never shot revolvers in any other manner than DA, I didn't give it much thought.

Now I'm looking at the 39XX series DAO pistols. Thin - VERY thin. Slick slides and they handle like a CCO type pistol, for me.

The trigger pulls on the two I've dry fired were very nice indeed. I'm wondering if they get even better with use, like a revolver?

Educate me on the 3953/3954 type guns. Why did you choose them for carry? What advantage is the DAO gun over the TDA version? Any problems associated with these pistols? Same 3rd gen reliability and accuracy as the TDA guns? Thanks! Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I like DA because of its consistently. They all feel the same, at least to me. It makes it easier to pick one up and shoot where as the traditional DA/SA triggers are always different in DA mode. If I pick up any two identical guns and dry fire in DA mode one will always be heavier pull then the other. I've had 59XX and 45XX where one was lighter than the other. I don't like that. Have to get used to a different trigger pull for the first shot. It's the same with CZ and Beretta and any other DA/SA.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

NOOOOOO!!!! Don't start saying nice things about the 3900 series DAO pistols! I know where there is a clean 3953 for a good price. I have been able to resist it due to my preference for the TDA 3913.

I did own a 4586 for a while (remember the $259 Newport News VA trade-in pistols Bud's blew out a few years ago?) and thought the trigger pull was decent, but nothing as nice as a slick slide "D" series Beretta.

The flatness of the pistols is quite attractive I must admit.

I'll just sit here in the corner and cover my eyes while you guys continue the conversation.

Stay Safe.

Very interesting topic. I look forward to the input here as I too am becoming somewhat interested in DAO. Never had one, never even fired one but the 3954 that was the subject of a very recent thread caught my attention.

Also, I'd like to 2nd Arik's observation on the difference between the DA trigger pull on two similar guns. I have a 4506 no dash and a 4516-2 and there is a BIG difference in them. I prefer the 4506. True, one is a full size and the other compact, but in my opinion they really should be pretty close to being the same.

Funny you should mention the 4586. To date, that is the only DAO 3rd gen pistol I've shot.

Some years ago member Stillwater788 met me at an IDPA match. He was shooting a 4586 and extolling its virtues. He loaned me that gun for a couple of weeks to try it out.

As I recall I found it to be as accurate as my 4566 and just as reliable. The problem was I didn't shoot it as fast and accurately as a 4566. I found the trigger pull to be long. Probaly related to what Arik was pointing out above. Maybe some DAO variants have a slightly different pull among the various calibers/models.

IIRC member KurtC always favored the earlier production DAO triggers over the later variants. I think he taught us that the earlier production guns had a shorter smoother pull by virtue of pre or half cocking the hammers. I hope he sees this thread and responds. What he has forgotten about the DAO guns I will never even know. Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

The original DAO pistols from the early 90's had short, sweet trigger pulls. Damn near single action. This was because S&W was making a proprietary slide and frame for the DAO models that extended further to the rear, covering the cocked hammer. These pistols can be identified by a round firing pin retainer.

In the late '90s, starting with the TSW rail models, they began using standard frames and slides to save money. These can be idientified by an odd shaped firing pin retainer, the same shape as a safety. The drawback to this is the original 3/4 cocked hammer looked like a cocked pistol with no safety. The lowered the hammer to a 1/2 cock, which looked more presentable. It also gives a slightly longer pull. It is still better than the DA pull on a DA/SA model.

There were also a limited number of compact 9mm's made for a police contract that had full stroke DAO triggers. These had double strike capability.

Thank you KurtC !!

Nice to see you here. So, would an early production, 1991 vintage 3953/3954 be equipped with the better trigger? Thanks again! Best regards, 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

There were also a limited number of compact 9mm's made for a police contract that had full stroke DAO triggers. These had double strike capability.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the 3914DAO made for the NYPD.

Yes, it would. I think the TSW rail models didn't come out until 1995. As a side note, there were a few pre-rail models that used the TSW moniker. These still had the early style triggers and hammers.

18DAI, I was the PFI for years when I was working. I oversaw the transition from CS-1's to the 6906. I never considered any of the guys inadequately trained and we had some very good shooters, but even when the results were minor, you could see inconsistency between that first DA pull, and the follow up single actions. And the one problem I saw was guys forgetting to work the hammer drop (never called it a safety) before holstering. I had one guy who consistently carried with the hammer drop down, so he had to raise it up to engage. He would not break from that habit. (I had a personally owned 457 that Smith retrofitted with a spring in the hammer drop so that it would automatically return to position after dropping the hammer. Wish I had that back!)

We used to shoot bowling pins, and most of the time that first shot would be a miss, and then hits with all of the follow ups. I think the DA/DA trigger just simply lends itself to inconsistency.

Personally, I went from a 1006 to a 1086 when I was carrying the 10. Picture that smooth trigger pull as just rolling your finger through the action. Very nice. And there was never that silly hammer drop to fool with.

Yes, I also had a 3953 for years. For some reason, though, it had a longer trigger pull (probably just my perception) than the 1086, and the only reason I don't still have the 3953 is that an XDS came along. I really like that little pistol.

All of my 3rd. gens. are TDA.....that's what I cut my teeth on and got used to .....I do wish they had the decocker return function though.....I also never had the opportunity to use or handle a DAO and just (wrongly) presumed that platform was just like the DA pull on my TDA's.....but over the past weekend I met a guy at the local gun show that was an armorer for S&W,H&k, Glock...and one other make that I can't recall...and did CCW classes....we got in a discussion about this very topic and he let me inspect his personal carry weapon to experience his DAO on the H&K...it appeared that the hammer was in the half cock position and the pull to fire was sweet...if the earlier 3rd. gen DAO guns are similar to that H&K..than I can see why you guys prefer them.....H&k's were never on my radar till now

__________________
witty signature goes here

If I were looking for a DAO 3rd generation compact, and IF I could get one into my goofy state, I'd be all over a NYPD 3914DAO.

Unlike the 3953/54 that gun allows for a second pull of the trigger without cycling the slide.

But that's just me.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

That second strike is a nice feature to have.

But being trained continuously in the tap rack clearing drill, its sort of ingrained in me.

So lack of a second strike doesn't really present any problem, to me.

Those 3914DAO's are nice pistols. The folks who are offering them on Gunbroker seem right proud of them.

If a used one without the Houlton ME laser etching came along.......... Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I think that the one that is listed there currently is for sale by one of the NYPD authorized FFLs. The list price was in the $700.00 area when they were selling them to officers. I don't know if they are still authorized for purchase or not. Maybe someone can offer and opinion.

At that price, given the option, I'd have one of my 3913s converted either by the factory or a gunsmith. That's provided the parts were still available.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

http://www.standardlaw.us/nypdrecruit1stpage.jpg

Shooting DA all the time a crutch? Not sure I buy into that. Shooting a DAO auto is just the same as shooting a DA revolver the way it was intended, and to be good at it requires loads of practice, just the opposite, in my opinion, of inadequate firearms training, or am I missing something in that statement?

I view shooting a traditional DA auto, after the first shot, as more of a crutch - if you will - more akin to cocking a revolver for each shot (SA), as I see MOST shooters doing. As for training, that is bad practice in my opinion (shooting a defensive revolver SA that is).

As for the first Third Gen DAO models, I have not met one that I did not like, all that I own are virtually smooth and consistent from shot to shot. And the M4586 is probably the best of the bunch, tough to beat the full size .45 DAO autos, with the M4586 being a personal favorite.

__________________
.............SmithNut

For technique, I shoot my revolver, single action.

I have a double action 3rd gen because my family isn't as meticulous as I am about knowing exactly how a semi auto works. Besides, I like it. I wouldn't mind having a single action semi auto, but unfortunately I can't have everything.


BTW mine is a 5943. There is no 'manual of arms, or decockers/safeties. Put in the mag, rack and shoot. Good weight for a carry gun with the aluminum frame.

The NYPD has nothing to do with the sale of off duty guns. If you find an FFL with a 3914DAO for sale there is really no good reason they couldn't sell it to you. Happy hunting!

10mmauto - Thanks for the info! I have the decock only feature on my 4513TSW and 4566. I'd love to find some decock only parts for my 457.

I hope you will post in the revolver section about your experience with the CS1. We would love to learn more about those revolvers.

SmithNut - Perhaps "crutch" was a poor choice on my part. Better to say that from an LE perspective, I think the DAO guns were an administrators solution to a non-existant problem. Fear of lawsuits, reduced training budgets and a reduction in recruits with any firearms experience (as the gun culture in this country became demonized) led to DAO pistols and subsequently the striker fired plastic guns, IMO.

I always have heard ad nauseum, from self described "experts", that a "consistant trigger pull" is easier to teach. I have not found that to always be the case. But I did come up being trained to fire revolvers. Always in DA.

Perhaps others not so trained would have more difficulty shooting DAO semi auto's. Dunno.....

nocents - I have quite a few HK's. Sweet pistols. You are doomed to own a few. Were I back in an urban jurisdiction kicking doors, I would have my HK USP 45 in my holster. The HK LEM is similar......but not quite the same as the S&W 3rd gen DAO trigger pull, in my experience. All my HK's are TDA. The only tupperware guns worth owning IMO.

Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Believe it or not, I actually like my HK trigger better than the DAO 3rd Gen pull. I have the LEM on my P2000 and I love the light initial pull, coupled with that very distinct final short pull, it works very well and keeps the gun on target better than even a DAO S&W 3rd Gen.

But even with LEM on my H&K, I have the same theme as my DAO Smiths. One consistent trigger pull for each shot, that's what I like in my carry guns.

__________________
Still carrying my S&W 642

I have a few HKs. Love em but even their LEM have differences. My USP 9 LEM is VERY light. I've held some that were heavier. My P2000 40s&w is technically a LEM but I wish it were a little lighter. Regardless, great guns. I'd be a HK fan boy if it weren't for some of their prices. 45acp mags $60ea.....common! As it stands I'm a Glock fan

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

My search for the more "rare" 3rd generations led to a 6944 and 4054. Later an early flat slide release 3953 was added.

The half-cock function of the early 6944 is heavier than any Revolver I own. The 4054 and 3953 triggers are quite nice. For pleasure shooting I prefer DAO revolver shooting to any of them.

That said I like the aesthetics of the slick side 3rd generation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have become more of an admirer/accumulator of all the 3rd gen variations. The variation on a 59xx or 45xx is almost astounding when you start going through a catalog. My shooter/ carry 3rd gens are specific, 4513TSW 3913, 4506, 5906, 6906. But my accumulation of 3rd gens and I do shoot them all is starting to expand. I have a 1086 I really like. I was looking through the SCSW today..50xx 5903, 5903TSW, 5903-SSV, 5904, 5905, 5906, 5906NS, 5906 Super 9, 5906TSW, 5924, 5926, 5943, 5943SSV, 5943TSW, 5944, 5946, 5946TSW, 5967 plus the RSR transitional. ALL started within about a 5
year period. And that is just the 59 series...who can wrap their head around all that!
BTW I did get my hands on a 5924.. LNIB...I had never even seen one in real person..some of these were made for 1 year maybe 2.

__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

I have a single stack 4053. My only .40. I should get rid of it but I can't bear to part with it.
As nice a trigger as my S&W 66 shooting DA. Maybe better.
Eight rounds in the mag, totally reliable and accurate.
The single stack 4053 (and 4054) is built on a frame intended for .45/10mm. Not quite as skinny as the 9mm frame but not bulky since there are no controls protruding from the side.
I hate DA/SA, perferring a consistent pull.

3954s are rare, as you know. I've had a 6946, John, and it was utterly reliable. As down on the "no second strike" design as I was (Why?), the gun never once needed a second strike.

__________________
Now go make God proud...

I carried a 3953 for many years. I consider it to be one of the finest auto pistols Smith made for carry. It has a "fast action" meaning the hammer is already half cocked when you start to pull the trigger. The early forged parts guns have better trigger pulls than the early MIM guns. The later MIM guns are OK.

Forged parts are silver. MIM are black. Early 3953's have a serial number that starts with T and don't have the later, more open ejector port. They seem to work fine.

I wish I had kept a 3953 as they have dried up. The only bad things about them are no parts and the mags are getting harder to find. They are good guns though.

Thanks all for all the input, information and advice.

I purchased a NIB 3954. I'm going off duty in a little while and driving over to pick it up.

I will clean and lube it tonight and try to shoot it Sunday at the local indoor range. I will of course post a range report with my impressions of the 3954 some time next week.

I'm hoping that it shoots as good as it looks and feels. I will probably put a set of Hogues on it as the Hogues make the 39XX feel as though they were made for my hand.

This gun was part of a large collection that a collector decided to divest himself of. IIRC 28 different S&W revolvers as well as some 2nd and 3rd gen semi autos - ALL UNFIRED SINCE THE FACTORY. Looking at all those guns felt like I was standing in a time capsule.

Before y'all ask or PM me, sorry, they are all spoken for as of this AM. I was just lucky. Right place, right time type of thing. Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Congrats on the older 3954.

Post pics.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I had plans to buy a 5900 series 15 rd mag but had a lot I needed to get first. I saw one in the store last week for too much money but I bought it anyway. I don't see anything in the future except more scarcity and cost going up.

I love the 3rd gen dao pistols. I own a 1086 and a 5946. I prefer the dao to the traditional da\sa triggers. It might be because I shoot revolvers so much but the da pull on the 3rd gens is very short. If I run across a 3953 or 3954 I will have to get it. I have a 3913 but the safety adds bulk to a carry gun. I prefer the slick slide of the dao Smiths.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

I own a 4043 and it's my normal carry pistol right now.
Took a little getting used to the DAO trigger as my other 3rd gen Smith is a 1066 and I also have a SAO Browning High Power. I like shooting the 4043 now that i have gotten used to the trigger a LOT. I swapped in a 16lb hammer spring and then spent some time dry firing it to get the feel of the longer DAO trigger. At first with the stock hammer spring I had to take my time or I pulled low but now shoot very well with it. I like the thought of having that consistent pull and a longer more deliberate pull if I find myself in a defensive situation where my adrenalin is really going is not a bad thing.

As a long time revolver shooter with lots of trigger time, I can't think of a better concept than a compact 3rd gen pistol with a revolver like trigger. The only problem is I have never shot , or even handled one. Closet thing I have to a DAO, or in this case a consistent trigger pull, is a Glock 19. I've had a G17 and G21 and shoot Glocks very well, which I attribute to maybe being the consistent trigger. Unlike my friends south of the border, up where I live, 3rd gen Smiths are not that common and DAO models are quite rare. I'm keeping my eye out for a 3953/3954, but realistically I may have to look at other Smith DAO models. I'd love to put one through the grind and compare it to my 3914, 6904 and G19. As much as I love my Smiths, for reasons like being metal framed, having a hammer and grip angle, I won't be giving up my G19 unless I can find and test a DAO Smith. I'll be waiting anxiously for 18DAI's range report on his new 3954, Congrats on a great find by the way !!!

I own a 3953TSW. It is one of the finest pistols I own (and I own many fine pistols).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bad rounds are bad rounds. No amount of second striking will set them off.

Dump them ASAP.

Second or third strikes are first and second hits of return fire.

IMO "second strike" is the marketing department taking advantage of a mechanical coincidence.

As you point out, tap, rack, bang. No better method.

My thoughts exactly on the second round strike thing. Every time it's mentioned I'm forced to think of the only situation where it seems to fit,................B grade movies from the fifties. The SOP seems to be "click" "click" "click" and then our hero throws the gun at his aggressor. I'm not trained to do that.

Makes sense from the standpoint of a DA revolver where pulling the trigger a second time brings a fresh round under the pin, but in a semi-auto pistol? Since *most* semi-autos don't have second round strike capability it's probably wiser to adopt a method that works with *all* semi-auto pistols.

Love the 3rd gen DAO. I didn't know such a thing existed prior to a year ago but have been accumulating them since the discovery. 3953, 3954, 4053, 4586, several 6946's and many 5946's and 4046's. I've noticed that the duty sized pistols generally have better triggers than the compacts, but none are bad. I'll have to check to see if I can sense a difference in trigger quality between the forged and MIM parts. My two faves so far are the 3953 and the 5946. The only one I'm not yet sure I'm happy with is the 4053 which seems on first blush to be 'too much blaster,.....not enough grip'. Haven't shot it yet but I was puzzled by the fact that neither magazine would activate the slide lock when hand cycling. Finally traced the problem down to 'personal weakness',..........the double nested recoil spring requires that you REALLY FORCEFULLY rack the slide and that's not easy to do with the shortened grip. I'm betting it works just fine live firing but I'm seriously considering swapping uppers between the 4053 and one of the 4046's. The longer slide and reduced recoil spring will make the shorter grip manageable and the larger grip of the 4046 will give me better leverage against the double recoil spring of the short upper. It would be much like my favorite S&W DAO of all,...........a 5946 frame that I slapped a 6946 slide and barrel on. Here I thought I had invented a completely new model until I learned today about the SSV versions.

I have a 3913,14 and 53. I must admit that the 53 is a very nice pistol but my real love for a DAO is the Browning BDM. I have two and the ability to switch between TDA and DAO is delightful. All you have to do is to turn a screw head with a penny, Their safety is one that I have never seen on any other pistol. You simply move a double-sided (left or right side) up with the knuckle of your thumb. Very easy to do as you draw. Dave_n

Frame-mounted for your thumb to move UP to fire, and DOWN to safe...entirely counter-intuitive to generations familiar with 1911, BHP, and all manner of .22 pistols using a like safety.

You bring up a good point about the second strike. I guess that means I'll have to start looking for a 3953/54.

__________________
Can open, worms everywhere.

Personally I like the one trigger pull for each shot. Ingrained in me by my early days with a 1911 or Hi-Power.
18, you know damn good and well that shooting a DA wheel gun effectively is a lost art today, but once mastered is nothing to sneeze at!
That said I spent a good number if years behind a SIG P226 and like you learned the DA to SA transition. It wasn't till I picked up an old 5946 that everything clicked. Its short, smooth 7-9 pound pull thrilled me. On the range it's no slouch, tending to hold 2-3.5 inches at 25yds as long as I maintain my trigger control and follow through. The lack of a safety/decocker much improves the lines of the piece, and makes slide manipulation easier without worry of activating the safety.
I recently (thanks to you Brother!) bought a links new 4046 Melonite that I call "NIGHTMARE" and yes its trigger is almost as smooth as it's older 5946 brother.
To me they simplify the manual of arms, and aid in the reholstering process by having a place to put your thumb on, the hammer.
Dale

__________________
"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

Spent a good bit of time on the range yesterday with the 4043. This is the first real range day with it since I have swapped in the lighter 16lb hammer spring. At first I was a little inconstant with it but started taking my time and focusing on being smooth with that DAO trigger. After I got 20 rounds or so down the pipe I got the feel for the trigger and found that I began grouping really well with it.
I honestly think having this DAO 3rd gen is forcing me to really work on my trigger control and making me a much better shooter as a result.
By the end of the day much to my amazement I was shooting as constantly with the DAO 4043 even as far out as 25 yards as I was with my old Browning Mk III High Power that I have owned for several decades.
Trust me that is saying something!

I picked up my 5943 and spent some time with it this weekend. I am loving this gun. I had to break out the 1086 as well. Now I need to find a 4046. I looked at a 4043 at a local shop but I really prefer the double stack mag because the grip fits my hand better.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

The 4043 IS a double stack.The only difference between the 4043 and 4046 is the 43 has the aluminum frame and the 46 SS. One thing that has been cool for me with my 4043 is that it fits the holsters I have for my 1066 well. I know you like me have a couple of the 10mm 3rd gens so take another look at that 4043, I LOVE mine!

Ok the one I looked at was the aluminum frame with a single stack magazine. Not sure the model number.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

As a big fan of Smith DAO autos (own a 4586) I'm curious if my 3906 can be converted to DOA. Any thoughts?

__________________
Metro Man

S&W use to offer a conversion of TDA 3rd gen pistols to DAO. But as they are trying to end 3rd gen service and terminate interest in 3rd gen pistols (in order to attempt to generate interest and sell the plastic guns they produce today) I don't think they will still do it.

Since the 5906 was capable of being converted I believe the 3906 (same top end) is too. Good luck! Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I've many years shooting revolvers DAO (oddly, I never use the single-action capacity, but I want the option).

For me the my 5946, 6946, 3954, and 3953 are just wonderful. Feels like the same sweet DA trigger as my Smith revolvers. my 3953 is my EDC. The DAO 3rd Gens have slowly causing me to sell off my TDA guns.

GaryS and 18DAI thanks for the info

__________________
Metro Man

Old thread but still a good discussion, I like the gen3 DAOs triggers and the slick slides, I just added a nice 5943ssv and the 3914dao I got recently is made in Springfield �� 457D and a CS45D is next on the hunt!

Thread resurrection or is it resuscitation? As an update, I didnt care for the DAO trigger on the 3954 and it got sold to someone who wanted it. DAO is not for me.

Has anyone heard from my friend Badkarma? My Email to him has gone unanswered and he has not been on the gunboards in some time. Im concerned and hoping he is OK. Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I've managed to pick up three DAO Smiths, a 4046, 6946, and an NYPD 3914 DAO. I like the smooth slides and DAO in a defensive weapon makes sense for the consistent trigger pull is very revolver like.

No chance of an engaged safety in a stressful situation. A shorter and lighter DA trigger pull with the DAOs is an advantage too. Second strike capability in the 3914DAO is also a plus.

digiroc