So yesterday I was on the phone with the mothership, S&W that is, to order a set of the new PC1911 adjustable sights I want to try to adapt to the PC4506. Anyway I got to talking about the parts situation and asked the rep if we're ever going to see the 3rd gen stuff back in stock. Without hesitation, the answer was emphatically no. Not even maintenance items like various springs, mag followers and such? Nope not gonna happen.

So I though I'd post some of the parts sources I know of or have done business with.

No doubt some of you will recognize a few of these...
S&W will often tell you to call this guy...
Buying and Selling Guns and Gun Parts
That guy has often told me to call this fellow...
About Gun Parts! ...Bob's Gun Parts. Top Page Commercial Super Site.
And also this guy...
The Gun Garage Siloam Springs Arkansas | gungaragegunparts.com

And of course there's always...
Jack First Gunshop - First in Gun Parts - Rapid City, South Dakota
And these folks...
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/

I used to get many items from both
World's Largest Supplier of Gun Parts, Gunsmith Tools & Shooting Accessories - Brownells
And...
Shop Shooting Supplies | Reloading | Gunsmithing | Hunting gear ? MidwayUSA
But of late most of their stock has dried up. They both still have some of the more obscure parts in stock but, most all of the commonly used stuff is long gone.

And as always, I keep a weather eye on the auction sites for parts set or kits and individual components that fit my guns. Having the parts reference handy is a great help here as you can readily identify stuff that is cross compatible between the different series' 45xx, 40xx, 39/59xx,m TSW & Value line.
I was informed yesterday the parts book was taken down for revision & update. I don't know whether the 3rd gens will even be listed in there when it's posted again at S&W.

A cautionary note though... Carefully inspect those used parts and make damn sure they are serviceable before you actually install any in a gun. I've been caught short a couple times with stuff that on it's face appeared perfect but in practice caused problems and upon detailed inspection was badly flawed.
Fortunately, nothing blew up in my face.

In inspecting parts, If you don't know what to look for, find a smith who's competent with these gun to help. NOTE: The local "smith" who wrenches AR's together probably aint the right guy to ask. I can see the day coming when finding someone competent to work on these guns will be as easy as finding a guy competent to work on a Borchardt C-93.

Best of luck my fellow 3rd gen'rs

Cheers
Bill

__________________
Because they don't make a .46

So much for the "lifetime warranty" that so many go on about.

Hopefully Apex Tactical will recieve some Emails from 3rd gen owners about this.

Apex has made a lot of money capitalizing on the deficiencies of the products made by the current company calling itself S&W. Maybe they will help us keep the 3rd gen guns operating.

Wasn't there another company that wanted to make the dual recoil springs for us? IIRC their rep wanted an un-used set. Anyone still in contact with him? Regards 18DAI

I just sent an Email to Wilson Combat too. They recently started customizing and supporting Beretta 92's. Some may want to encourage Wilson to consider the 3rd gen guns too. C&S might not be a bad idea either. Their founder is a longtime fan of the 3rd gens.

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Parts availability seems to be the only downside to owning these guns. Very dis-heartening to say the least

Thank you Bill for the list of suppliers, some of which are new to me. I suspected this dropping of support from S&W was the case when Midway cleared out a ton of their 3rd gen parts last year and switched the remaining out of stock stuff to non-backorder status. Smith must have told them the same thing, we're not taking anymore orders since we're not making that stuff anymore.

Sad.

Now we get to start (like I already hadn't started last year!) hoarding parts to go along with hi-cap mags and ammo.

GunPartsCorp recently sent me some parts that were wrong for my 908 (sideplate assembly) but then I realized it was a sideplate for a 5906 so I kept it.

Good advice to study what condition your "new" parts are truly in. Some of the stuff GunPartsCorp sent me was used, although they never stated the parts were used in the description.

Stay safe and well stocked.

Thanks for the links.

I just got on the 3rd gen wagon and trying to get a stockpile of parts as well as the basics like magazines so those are very helpful.

It makes me sad that these fine handguns are not being supported by the company that made them.

I will be contacting Wilson Combat, C&S as well as Apex.

Thanks for the links, Bill. The handwriting has been on the wall for some time now. It really is the Achilles heel for our long term enjoyment of these guns, though there is some small comfort in knowing, for the most part, I've not had much to be concerned about in terms of parts failures. Since you tinker around more than most of us here, I would be curious as to your thoughts on which specific parts we should be stockpiling while we can?

If you read this Fastbolt, your thoughts would be of interest as well.

For 3rd Generation pistol grips, let me suggest the following shop:
H&H Firearms, 262 Rocktown Rd., Jefferson City, TN 37760

Harry Hance is the owner, and several years ago he secured the grip inventory of of a local S&W distributor when that person sold his business.
He does not have a computer, but you can contact him by telephone at
(865) 475-2049. I have talked with him during the last month, and he told me that he still has a lot of grips that he is willing to sell. I don't have any 3rd Generation pistols so I wasn't interested, but if you are looking for grips you may get lucky. Business hours are "roughly" 10:00 am to 5:00 pm M-F and perhaps a little shorter on Saturday.

Well, for the most part, these guns are extraordinarily rugged. Like any well crafted metal piece, with reasonable care they should outlast most of us.

The parts that I'm most concerned about are the wear items you could consider semi-consumables. These are in MY order of priority...

*Recoil springs
*Magazine followers
*Magazine springs
*Ejector
*Extractor spring
*Extractor
*trigger play spring & rivet or, spare drawbar assembly

Recoil springs I'm confident I have a handle on, at least for my small collection of 45's

I think magazine followers top my list as a wear item I like to have more of.

I bought several new mags back when Midway ran that clearance sale, in hindsight, I should've bought a bunch more than I did.

Beyond that, I think folks need to be extra careful when performing routine maintenance not to damage anything. For example... The sideplate can be easily damaged merely by removing & installing the plastic grip or just using an incorrect method to install the thing and there wont be any spares. Likewise the delicate trigger play spring can be easily bent, damaged or broken and there are a number of tiny plungers & springs that will gladly shoot into orbit if you're not exercising due care.

Cheers
Bill

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Because they don't make a .46

Bill, Thanks for the links. I'm hoping that since I spread out my small collection to give each one time at the range I will put off any excessive wear. This applies to all but the 4506-1 & the Shorty Forty, which insist on being included on every range trip.

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

In response to 18DAI's question about a potential supplier for recoil springs, yes, this is still hanging fire. He has called me after receiving the set of new springs I sent for the 4516-size nested pair, and he was following up on his end to find a pistol on which he could measure (to three decimal places) a couple of the critical dimensions. I'll get back in touch and see where we are. Heckuva nice guy and super knowledgeable. And just to tease you a little, he mentioned that his shop uses a cryogenic process that produces springs good for 25,000 rounds and more with no deterioration of capability!

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

I've been having a hell of a time tracking down an extractor pin for my 645... note that the 4506 uses the same one.

S&W - out of stock
Brownells - out of stock
Midway - out of stock
Numrich - out of stock

I'll have to try the new links provided.

Well I just got off the phone with "Jack First Gunshop" and now have an 645 extractor pin on the way, along with a 6906 grip, 457 grip, and a 2206 barrel nut (restricted part). I paid a little too much for the parts, but I'm tired of waiting.

If I remember the phone conversation:

Pin = $3.00 (6x)
Grip #1 = $20 (about the same)
Grip #2 = $30 (1.5x)
Barrel nut = $4 (about the same)
Shipping = $10

Just emailed Apex Tactical. There is a market for parts, hopefully someone's business plan will get this going for us.

__________________
USS ZELLARS
DD-777

Well, fancy that. I grew up in Jefferson City. Graduated from Carson-Newnan. Probably went to school with some relatives of his.

Maybe we should all "claim" all our guns are broke and when they can't fix em' we can sue cause they can't honor THEIR lifetime warranty and then when they can't pay up we can take the company over and we'll have all the parts we need as well as some new production 3rd Gens. Just a thought.

I would suggest not to panic. I have many first and second gens, which many of the parts for have been obsolete for a long time, but have never had a problem finding spares for. Considering the sheer number of third gens produced, as well as parts interchangeability, and the number of spares made during the third gen production, I would think parts will be around for a long, long time.

The good part is they are nearly "bullet proof" so needing parts is fairly uncommon. That said, I just bought a bunch of misc parts and springs from Numrich. Their supply is thin and dwindling so get it while you can.

S&W implemented the lifetime warranty in 1989, IIRC. That is an interesting question, whether the "repair of defects in materials and workmanship" (statement of warranty) is extended to normal wear items like springs.

Oh great! How am I going to break this to the kidz that their Creator doesn't love them any more?

Sounds like more "cuddle time" & less "play time" is in order for the kidz.

Be advised that this also applies to the PERFORMANCE CENTER 3rd gens as well. I was not going to even bother telling this story here, but it seems to be an appropriate time to do so.

I have a PC 4566 45 CQB that I had sent back to S&W last year. I wanted them to install Novak Night sights and a forged spurless hammer. It took them months to do those two simple things - but that is another story.

I also asked - and paid for 6 recoil springs for it as it was a limited production gun and I was going to use it as a duty pistol. I figured six springs would get me to retirement.

When the gun was finally returned to me there was a bag with six recoil springs in the box. No parts numbers - just a plain plastic zip lock type bag.

So back around February of this year, I decided I would qualify with the 45 CQB. I installed one of the new springs S&W had sent me. It was very hard to install and almost 1.5 inches longer than the spring that was in the gun. The gun hand cycled fine - but was a bit harder to rack the slide than before. I figured that since the PC had sent me the springs, they must be the correct ones. Right?

So I qualify firing 100 rounds. Then that Sunday I shoot a local match with it firing 120 rounds. That Sunday night when I go to clean it I find that my guide rod has been gouged - scalloped in three places by the spring. The spring is evidently stacking and binding.

So Monday I call S&W to get a replacement guide rod and buy the correct springs too. I'm told, after waiting on hold for 26 minutes that; "those parts are on back order." Me - "OK. Can I go ahead and place an order for them?" CS - "I'm not sure we will ever be getting any more of those parts. And even if we do, there is no way I could tell you when that might be." Me - "This is a Performance Center gun with a lifetime warranty." CS - ".............is there anything else I can assist you with?" Me - "Thanks, no. CLICK!"

So, I Email the S&W LE rep. I politely inform him of the problem and ask for assistance. He has always been VERY kind and helpful in the past, whenever I wanted to buy mags or recoil springs. Two days later I get a terse one line reply - "I use grease on my guide rod." - accompanied by the two parts numbers for the parts I already know are on back order - AND have been told by the CS rep are probably not going to be restocked!

So, I Email him again - politely - and explain my conversation with CS and ask him for his assistance. Afterall, this is an "LE duty gun" as well as a PERFORMANCE CENTER piece with their LIFETIME WARRANTY. And S&W "always caters to LE", right? Well........maybe if you carry an m&p.

I'm still waiting on an Email response from him. Although I no longer expect one.

So being a persistant type I find out where <DELETED> is these days (the original S&W Performance Center was his baby back in the day) I Email him at <DELETED> and ask if he can supply the parts for the 45 CQB. He Emails me back. He is unable to help as S&W won't sell him parts. He seems surprised at the difficulty I am having and informs me that when he was at the PC they kept repair parts for a period of 10 years and advises me to call the head of the PC.

Being disgusted by all this I've not bothered to do so. Member BMCM and I have discussed this matter, through PM's, over the last few months and he has gone out of his way to try and assist me. THANK YOU AGAIN BMCM!!

So keep in mind that your performance center guns, depending on model and what year they were made, may not be supported by the "performance center" for the life of the gun. Unless of course the PC makes an m&p. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

So where does that leave me with my used 4006 with a chipped extractor? I basically have a single shot pistol.

Discouraging to say the least. A darn shame to say it better. Freakin' unbelievable to say it the best.

I guess the Wanted to Buy section here on the Forum is gonna get a lot longer before long....

I'm sure we'll look out for each other in the meantime, but this certainly isn't a long-term answer.

As an aside: as a relative newbie to S&W semi-autos for the past couple of years, I have naively developed a sense of loyalty to the brand and a pride of ownership as part of a community of like-minded folks. I'm feeling, frankly, more than a little let down by the lack of corporate support of these pistols that, admittedly, are of an earlier time and place and might not make sense economically for S&W to continue to support. None of my pistols has the lifetime warranty any longer, I suppose, as I'm not the original owner of any of them, but if they did I would be more than a bit "incensed."

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

Whoa fellas! All is not lost and the future is far from bleak!

Having owned, been issued, purchased and examined many hundreds of well used 3rd gen guns, and shot the snot out of a whole bunch of them - far more rounds through individual examples than most average shooters will ever run through one example - I've only broken a MIM mag catch on a 4516-3 and chewed up a guide rod on a PC 4566.

Not bad I'd say. And I have never been considered "lucky".

As was pointed out above, where a market exists, somebody will fill the void and make a profit.

Buy them, shoot them, love them! Besides, lifes too short to buy ugly plastic guns with lousy triggers. If not a 3rd gen gun, then what?

Well........yea, there is always HK...... Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Try calling the guy in Texas (LSG). People on the forum have posted good things about him in the past.
Warranty Stations - Smith & Wesson

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

From a legal standpoint, Smith and Wesson better be real careful about not honoring 3rd Gen repairs that fall under their "Lifetime Warranty". And not having the replacement parts is not an excuse to perform a necessary repair, especially for those with priority and departments still issuing and using them.

Just assuming whoever is making those big boy decisions has already consulted the legal department and must not be worried about the risk associated with a lawsuit.

__________________
USS ZELLARS
DD-777

If you can get the guy in touch with me, I can provide those dimensions for him on a couple guns. 4516-2 & Shorty45 mk2 specifically

Cheers
Bill

__________________
Because they don't make a .46

I was told just this morning by a Sgt. with the WVSP that they are switching to M&P's this fall/winter. Although the rumor of switching to M&P's was floating around when I was still a troop a few years ago, I think it is probably true this time around. It certainly fits with the info in this thread.

It's a travesty that S&W won't maintain at least a few of the most popular models as PC items...


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

I wouldn't be surprised if the company wouldn't like it if many of their existing agency customers were make the transition from 3rd gen to M&P pistol.

I've been told that they'd like to see the 3rd gen's completely go away from production (even for existing agency customers who have used them for many years) within the next 10-15 years. This would mean the CHP (CA), WVSP, NYPD, LAPD and any number of others would have to agree to replace their 3rd gen's with M&P's.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I wonder if this would possibly mean that some more WVSP 4566TSW's will be hitting the resale market?

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

That would certainly be the only upside to the change!


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

[quote Buy them, shoot them, love them! Besides, lifes too short to buy ugly plastic guns with lousy triggers. If not a 3rd gen gun, then what? Well........yea, there is always HK...... ][/quote]

I agree, except for the part about HK, but I'm more of a SIG than HK guy.

If nothing else, if this happens maybe some of the parts floating around in various armories would be sold as surplus. Depending of course on how deep the parts inventory is.

OTOH, if these agencies decided to get away from the S&W 3rd generation guns, there is no guarantee to S&W that the replacements would be M&P guns. They might opt to go to some other companies all metal guns.

10-15 years is a long time away, though, so who knows what will happen?

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Part of the way there already, Master Chief. I had told him that if he wasn't able to come up with a pistol, I knew a Forum member who could probably provide the dimensions to him. Yep, I was thinking you'd be the go-to guy there. Either he or I will get in touch with you soon. Thanks.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

I recently e-mailed Apex as well and received a prompt and personal response stating that although nothing was in their pipeline for the 3rd gens that they were always reevaluating and researching new product directions and ideas so definitely a thumbs up to a barrage of inquiries sent their way.

Maybe Novak's would step up to the plate as well IIRC Wayne Novak also had a hand in the 3rd gen design back in the day as well as making his sights their flagship standard. Their site still advertises 3rd gen work too.

I just spent about 6 months getting a simple ambi safety lever & plunger to put my 5905 back together and can echo the earlier posts, supplies are dwindling fast. It took a trip to Mordor to get a simple guide rod for the gun too.

Ditto that! Having just put a lot of money into these guns it's not very comforting to know that parts support from S&W is going to be nill. I guess once word gets out we might be able to buy these guns at 2-for-1 prices & cannibalize one for parts. Guess I better update my parts compatibility list.

Chances are higher that those customers might go elsewhere,
if they think that S&W won't do any better for the M&P line in the future...

SIG & Glock have an edge there...
not to mention all the bad press from the M&P Shield recall.

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Big mistake on s&w's part. But I suspect they will do what ruger does with customers requesting support on their Six series revolvers. Ruger will scrap the gun and sell you a new GP100 or SP101 for cost, which is about 350 bucks shipped right to your door. I imagine a new M&P would cost less then 200. And ruger doesn't even have an official lifetime warranty

The NYPD issues the 5946. Gotta be at least 8000 officers with them. And the NYPD is not gonna force 8000 cops to buy new night sights and leather. New recruits are selecting the gun as I type this so those guns will be carried until 2034 at least. Not supporting those guns is gonna piss off one of their biggest contracts. Of course, they might have given the job a ton if spare parts which is why they have none for the civilian market

Sad to say it, but as many of these LE trade-ins come on the market, plenty of them will be bought simply as organ donors to keep other pistols shooting.... The last 457 I bought from SOSS was like new, but its price put it within my range to look at it as a "parts-kit". So far, I haven't had to act on this.... and it was damn hard to even type this thought - but there it is. Yuck!
XAVMECH

A friend of mine standardized on 1911's just for this reason. He said, it's an open design. I can maintain and repair it as long as guns are legal.

Now I think, sure its great to have some old guns, but if you are serious about self-defense adopt the latest technology when its stable, and keep only old pieces for fun range use.

Sorry to hear the news.

I only have two, 3913 and the later 915. But about a year ago when they were available, I bought side plates and trigger play spring/rivets for both of them. I figure Wolff will have springs for some time to come.

Dave

Although I've been a 3rd gen pistol armorer since the 90's, it's not all that often that I have to dip into my parts collection to repair guns. When I have, it's typically been because someone has fiddled with a gun and damaged something (damaging a sideplate while installing factory grips incorrectly), or abused the gun in some manner (repeatedly loading the chamber directly instead of from a magazine, or letting it be submerged in water without reporting it for more than a year, etc ).

I've had a small number of instances where a part was unknowingly defective, or had been produced at the wrong end of some tolerance spec & stack combination.

I've even had some guns require attention and parts replacement after having seen 10-20 years of heavy use (and neglect), and having been used to fire more than 10-12K+ or more rounds.

Even some of the older revisions of some parts have sometimes resulted in the need for a replacement part at some point after years of use (ejectors are an example).

However, that's taking into consideration that I've helped support a few hundred early 3rd gen's which remained in-service for close to 20 years, and then their replacements (TSW's) for several years. In the greater picture, not much in the way of spare parts have really been required, overall.

It's amazing how well the 3rd gen guns can withstand normal usage if simply cleaned & lubricated properly, on a reasonably periodic basis, and then given fresh recoil and mag springs (without waiting for them to demonstrate signs that they've become significantly weakened or worn out ).

Yes, the use of the hotter loads in each caliber can accelerate the expected wear & tear ... but that's one of those TANSTAAFL considerations, folks.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

At the very least, S&W should issue a statement on their website stating they will no longer be honoring their "lifetime warranty". That is completely unacceptable.

I for one, will never again buy a S&W handgun or anything else they sell.
If they want to treat their customers like this, then i'll buy some other make.

Lifetime Warranty? I won't be buying another S&W semi-auto.

I've got to say I'm leaning in the same direction as you guys. So much seems to be going wrong that its hard to stay positive. I'm so hooked on 3rd Gens though it'll be a hard habit to break.

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

I hate to say it, but I've given up. I own 20+ 3rd gennies, but I think I'm good. Carried a 4566 for a few years, but I'm done.

I have well documented the problems my agency has had with the M&P full size 45. Found out last week our entire inventory of M&Ps will be replaced AGAIN. If you recall we have already done this twice. This will be my third pistol, for some of my buddies this will be their fourth. For a few this will be their fifth.

Smith no longer produces quality products. They have focused solely on profit margins. I understand that's what a company is supposed to do. My first career was business management. However, it is important how you handle customer relations. Smith has decided to write the 3rd gennies off......okay. A worthwhile company would make some type of public acknowledgment that was the case. Even Microsoft publicly states when they stop supporting older versions of Windows™ and they are perhaps one of the most profitable corporations in existence.

I don't want to argue about why Smith doesn't produce the 3rd gennies anymore. I'm really tired of hearing the excuses made for them. They produce revolvers and 1911 pistols.....all steel framed. The simplest answer is they just don't want to. Better companies than Smith have failed and gone bankrupt because they didn't pay attention. Ask Colt how successful/profitable depending on govt contracts is/was.

I am done with Smith. They will get what's coming to them.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

Because of lack of parts I have been slowly selling off my 3rd gens. I don't collect so they all get used and I can't use em if I can't fix em.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Stay tuned fellas.... There's a scheme afoot to brew up a batch of those nested spring sets. You know, the 108660000 & 10867000 springs. And we'll need your help to get an idea of what the demand is going to look like. Remember those springs are spec'd in some 14 or so different models.

So don't get discouraged fellas, I'm certainly not. I will keep my little collection running irregardless even if I have to whittle my own parts out of chunks of scrap steel. And if I see another 45xx that strikes my fancy I wont hesitate to snatch it up. (assuming I can come up with the scratch) Frankly, I don't care what S&W does.

This whole deal with parts support, it's really no different than expecting a local Dodge dealer to have parts for a 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner GTX with a 4 speed manual, Dana 60 rear & a 440/sixpack under the hood . There aint a Dodge dealer on the planet has parts for that car but, the aftermarket sure has if covered

Look, manufacturers move on and the market changes. What we have to do now is show some reputable aftermarket producers that there's a healthy demand for consumables to keep these fine guns running.

So you folks with guns that spec the nested springs, think about how many sets you'd want to start with.... There's liable to be a datacall soon.

Now what I want to know is who is the subcontractor who made the mag followers and where are/who has the molds.

Cheers
Bill

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Because they don't make a .46

BMCM has it right. Let's find out who has the molds and who was making them for S&W. Making the simple replaceable followers, mag springs, extractors etc shouldn't be a big deal for the aftermarket consumers that the + 1 Million 3rd Gen owners there are. Who knows how many total are out there but it is significant.

It's a slap in the face by S&W that is a tough pill for us all loyal to swallow. I'm coming to grips with this now but I'm also not getting to excited as Fastbolt mentioned. When I need a part is typically because i made a mistake. Other than that, mine just keep running besides the typical consumables that we need someone to step up on. If the after market turns it's back on us I will sell them and never buy another smith semi auto again.

Hello Other All Steel Manufacturers.

I still don't understand why Smith thinks they cannot honor a Lifetime Warranty because they don't have replacement parts. That is not my problem and part of the reason we all bought them. Shaaaaadddddyy......or Fraudulent?

__________________
USS ZELLARS
DD-777

Well, it looks like Wolf makes he bigger springs for these, good chance they may step up in S&W stops making the smaller ones. Metal parts may be harder to come by....

One way or another it will work itself out. If there's money to be made, someone will make it!