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Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols Other Smith & Wesson Semi-Automatic Pistols from the 1950's to Present


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Old 09-17-2014, 11:56 AM
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Default Guide rods

Didn't want to hijack the "ask Springco" thread, but thought it worth tossing out as a question:

Is there any particular advantage to the older "staked" two piece rods, versus a simple one piece guide rod?

As a followup, why WERE the older ones two piece and staked???

Gots mah popcorn ready....
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Old 09-17-2014, 01:53 PM
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Older tech used in the original design.

The plunger and spring were contained within the rod body by a collar that was staked to the body. Dunno how the early staking was done, but I've been told that in recent years it's been done on a machine, controlled by hand, involving pressing the "dimples" into the rod body in 3 steps (turning the rod to spread out the indentations around the body).

Doing this by hand means it may result in spacing differences, as well as depth of the indentation. The particular material for the rod bodies, and their production (heat treating, etc), might also result in differences.

See the different depth/size of the indentations, as well as the different spacing, in this pair of rod assemblies?


If the staking were to become loose, it might result in the collar and rod separating, which could result in the rod coming out the end of the slide. Typically, armorers are told to replace the rod assembly if the collar can be turned by gentle fingertip pressure (while holding the rod body in the other hand).

The solid 1-piece rod body has been around for a long time, but it didn't really become a standard assembly item in most models until in more recent years. The CS45S I bought early in its production came with a rod assembly of the 1-piece design, as did the later production CS9S, but I was still getting spare guide assemblies for the 4566TSW's of both designs in the last few years. I saw one shipment of 4513TSW's come with staked 2-piece rods, and then the next shipment come with 1-piece rods.

The advantage of the 1-piece unit is that the collar is machined into the body. No staking to work itself loose over time.

Getting the plunger and spring for the 1-piece units isn't easy, though. Don't lose them. It's apparently easier to get the whole 1-piece assembly (including plunger & spring) than the separate plunger & spring ... unless you order the rod assembly and get only the rod body (lacking the plunger & spring), BTDT.

There have also been 3 types of plungers made for the 1-piece assemblies. One is plastic and the other is steel. The spring snaps onto a specific end of the plunger (small end of spring), and the "assembled" plunger & spring is inserted down into the rod body, large end of the spring into the rod body. Twisting the spring during insertion helps compress the spring.




FWIW, I've had to help maintain a fair number of 3rd gen's over the years, including several hundred early production models that saw upwards of 16-20 years of service. I only had to replace a handful of the older rod assemblies for having the staked collars come loose.

Regardless of whether the design is the staked unit or the 1-piece unit, it's prudent to inspect in during normal cleaning, looking for any potential damage, breakage or unusual wear. While I've never encountered it, I was told of some rods bodies in some 4566TSW's that had become peened and somewhat "mushroomed' at the front ends, resulting in some clearance issues between the end of the guide rod and slide. I was told it was felt to have been caused by a production/tempering issue.

That can happen to anyone's metal rod body, though, as I was told by a major well known vendor of it having occured with some metal aftermarket rod bodies they sold for Glocks at one time.

Doesn't matter whether we're talking plastic or metal parts, there may be rare occasions when unexpected things can happen during manufacturing & production.

BTW, I still use both staked and 1-piece units in various models & calibers, depending what's at hand in my parts boxes, and I'm confident and fine with using either of them. Just my thoughts.
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 12-09-2016 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 03:03 PM
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Thanks Fastbolt for another informative post.

ETA: I have staked guide rods on my 3913 and 5906, but my 457 is not.

Last edited by scwv67; 09-17-2014 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 03:12 PM
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Thanks, but we don't need a sticky (or a sub-forum, as another fellow suggested in another thread topic ) of things I've posted.

I'd prefer not have an increased radar profile pop up in instances whenever someone from the factory may be pursuing the forums. It's not impossible that I might yet take a job with them some day.

BTW, when it comes to the 4506 guide rod bodies that are of the 1-piece variety, it's possible to come across one which has had a spot on the "collar" ground flat.

When I asked about it one time, I was told that it had been done to .45 guide rods used by the PC, and the reason for it was that it made it easier to rest the flat spot (versus the standard rounded edge) in the 'nail nick' of the barrel lug during reassembly.
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:10 PM
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I will add my thanks also Fastbolt.......I have a staked guide rod that I replaced some time back on one of my 3913's that failed the "finger twist" test...is there any way to "retighten" the collared head on the rod body....the "bubby" in me says use a small punch to restake the head......yet it lays in the bottom of my parts box waiting for a more refined fix
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:28 PM
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I've been told the original staking is done via a press, not impact forces.

I've never heard it recommended that armorers attempt to "repair" loosened staking on guide rod bodies. Not even in my first 3rd gen armorer class where we were taught how to "repair" some potential issues, such as restoring the 90-degree angle (lever-to-pin) of a tweaked slide stop lever assembly (meaning bending via judicious whacking with a lead babbitt), or a long-tail disconnector problem, etc. Nowadays it's more pulling & replacing parts & assemblies, with mostly only extractors & sear release levers requiring fitting.

It's been observed (I've been told) that some instances of the guide rod body staking indentations having been applied too deeply have resulted in very minute cracking at the outer surface, within and without the edges of the indentations. I've been told that careful engineering examination has revealed that while the appearance was probably concerning to the lay person - - the actual integrity of the rod body wasn't adversely affected ... in those specific instances. The "cracking" had occurred at the very surface level, and it was thought it wouldn't present a problem within the rest of the body's metal structure below.

I'd be leery of trying to "hand-stake", via a punch & hammer, the existing indentations, perhaps risking causing actual damage or loss of integrity.

Then again, I'm only an armorer ... not a repair technician, an engineer, a metallurgist or a licensed gunsmith.
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 09-18-2014 at 04:24 AM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:46 PM
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thanks again....you confirmed what the common sense side of me knew....so it will reside in the bottom of the parts box as a reminder......and as you state "I'm ONLY an armorer"...most here will agree that is somewhat of an understatement for all the information you provide to us
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