Well I added another firearm to my growing transitional pistol family, there is not much info on the non RSR models any info greatly appreciated, so far I have a 4590,4690 and 6590 as far as I can tell I need a 6450 yet.

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Come on does anyone have any info on the pilot or transitional series pistols? Articles, advertising pages anything?

Nice family!

Sorry no info.

Oh, I think that's supposed to be "Ya-Hooooo."

Oh, well.

Chief-Wahoo, I too chase transitionals (officially distinguished as "Interim" and "Pilot") and, I tell you, those you have are pretty doggone cool.

As the attached image of an old RSR advertisement (below) shows, these actually existed (there once was doubt of such expressed within this forum) and provides other information, although scant (I know, I want MORE, too!), but which may hopefully ring your chimes, Chief-Wahoo.



In a tangential story: Recently, one of the "real" auction houses - conducted live with floor and 'Net bidders - offered a 459 that had, as does one of yours, a Model 459 in a 4590-marked box (having all those special codes and etc.) and, importantly, a corresponding "RSR XXXX" serial number.

The 459 noted above slipped through my fingers because the auction house evidently doubted my sincerity and lowered a $1,150 "maximum" bid to $550. The $1,150 was actually between the estimated sale numbers the auction house posted and represented what I'd be willing to pay at retail (additionally considering commissions, taxes, S/H and etc.) for that particular gun at that particular time. I've been doing this collecting thing for a while now and feel I've got a decent handle on it . . . not a mistake-free handle, but a decent one.

In something the auction house couldn't have known but in the week immediately before the "459" auction I'd bought a No-No (my second, known as a "Pre-39" to some) and a primo Model 469 (my third and added to a beloved 469-through-6906 mini-collection within the overall collection).

Realizing a personal weakness, I learned a long time ago to put up numbers I can live with meeting and then avoiding like a plague any further actions having to do with that specific auction until AFTER the auction concluded. In that manner I avoid the testosterone rushes during a live auction and which compels a male bidder to go where he darn well doesn't belong, "monetarily" and "stupidly" speaking that is.

It's served me well, now having more than 200 handguns in my collection (99.5% being S&W) with roughly 90-percent having been acquired using my above method.

When I saw the gun had sold for $750 I naturally thought it was mine but then later realized the above occurred after an informational exchange with the auction house.

Sadly, their actions only screwed themselves of gross profit based on at least $800, presuming the other bidder at that price wished to go no further. Had he wished to go higher and then still higher, I then could've potentially gone to at least my maximum bid and the auction house's percentage bump from there.

Indeed, I've even bought two handguns I didn't really want through a combination of brain fade, brain farting and viewing listings late at night when too doggone tired and, no lie, evidently clicking on "Buy Now" when I didn't really want to "Buy Now." I still paid for them without hassle or debate. Funny thing: I made money on 'em upon reselling. It's a strange world out here.

The buyer of that above 459, however, was looking for a quick retail score, having afterward immediately put it up on GunAuction for $1,295. My stomach dropped when I saw it.

That and any buyer had and has every right to pursue a resale. It's what manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers do every single day. Additionally, it's probable the buyer of that 459 is clueless of what happened to me. Frankly, I hope the buyer-turned-seller gets that $1,295. It's just not gonna come from me. I made a $1,150 (about $1,400 when all the dust settled) run at that gun and that is that.

If you're still with me, Chief-Wahoo, upon discovery I promise to provide additional hard material within this S&W Forum and hope you'll be kind enough to do the same for me and all those others out there who are interested in S&W history.

If I'm understanding the Interim and Pilot models correctly, they pre-date the RSR transitional models, and carry the old 2nd gen model number on the frame, but the box has the model number with an extra "0" (4690 or 6590).

Were the interim and pilot model of the 645 both marked with a 6450 on the box?

I don't know if it is exactly what you are looking for but Cherry's Fine Guns has a 6690 for sale for $600.00. Or at least they did a day or so ago.

I have no connection to them or the gun, just saw it on their website.

Yes and yes, they predate the RSR models by three years, and they all have the added "0" on the box only. The RSR models, although limited in production, were made circa 1991, and utilized "leftover" second gen parts, primarily slide assemblies. So to be clear, RSR models are not transitional models at all, as they were all made way after the introduction of the third gen models, they just happened to use some of the designations only found on the box of true transitionals, not the pistols themselves...and the photo shown above by DCW is actually mine, it's a photocopy of a sales flyer I took a picture of and posted here on another thread. It has nothing to do with RSR prefix models....it was printed in 1988, as you can see by the hand written "1988" circled on the photocopy....this flyer pertains to the TBY, TBU, TBV, and other prefix true transitional models...

Just to clarify, an RSR model will have that serial prefix, as well as the corresponding four digit model number stamped on the frame, "6590", or "6690" for example, while the true 1988 transitionals will have three digit model numbers stamped on the pistol, and four digit model numbers on the box only.....

Yeah thanks 10ring I saw that Friday on Cherrys web page actually had it on hold until today I decided to stay away from the rsr guns and stay focused on Transitional and interim pistols along with Colt Double Eagles

A bit more info, based on my own research into the interim/transitional models (non RSR). I have found that it appears only the "pilot" versions have "special" on the box label, and all seem to have a Spec. Ord. number of 14xx (1408, 1410), which is clearly not a julian date. The "interim" models, which were built on second gen frames, do not have "Special" on the box label, and carry a julian date (all late 1988). I also should note that the box labels do not have the SI or SP suffix on the product code, this appears to be added to the sales flyer as an item number only, and some models carry the second gen standard product code. It also appears that ALL interim/pilot models were only available in fixed sight versions. There are clearly models not listed in the example flyer, as 6690, as well as 4590 models were made as well (again, non RSR prefix).

TBY = 4590
TBU = 4690
TBS = 6590
TBV = 6450??? both the interim and pilot?

Any model could have any one of those prefix letters..., here are some box labels...the serial prefix numbers were assigned to semi-auto models, not specific models, so any model/caliber could have any of those prefix numbers....

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I have only observed TBU, TBV,TBW, and TBY

"TBS" is shown on the 6590 box in the original post.

I did see that, it also has the correct product code. I was referring to those I have actually seen, but I have heard of other prefix numbers. It would be nice to start a database on this forum.

Thanks, Grif84, no malicious intent existed in my heart.

I failed to note the originator of the above image when I first DL'd it and I'm rather embarrassed that such transpired. I read and acquire so much doggone S&W material I couldn't remember from whence it came.

It won't happen again because the file now contains proper notes.

Furthermore, thank you for delineating the supposed "RSR Transitional," of which "being one" is even noted within one notable, oft-cited book within this S&W Forum and from which most sellers derive information.

Sometimes "corrections" smart; but learning is even smarter.

Thanks, again, Grif84.

DCW, no problem at all, I simply wanted to point out that it pertained to transitional models only, not the (often confused with) RSR models...

Hey Griff, what happened to the article you had up?

Not sure what article you're talking about Chief, if you meant the ad, DCW posted it above...

For the sake of comparison to the true transitional labels* supplied by Grif684, above, is an image, below, as taken from one of my RSR-serial number boxes.



Question:
Recognizing that a handgun plus its original, properly labeled box equals a more desirable condition than a handgun without its box, are the serial-number prefixes TBS, TBU, TBV,TBW, and TBY likely to have been solely affixed to the transitionals as are the "RSR" prefixes assigned to the, well, the RSR guns?

Thanks.

Oops, forgot the asterisk's reference:

* "Transitional" today is so often used for, associated with the RSR handguns - even by supposed experts, as was the case in a recent high-quality gun auction - one wonders if its use now is beyond its proper association.

I think it might be.

In my 3rd gen spreadsheet, I'm still referring to the RSR guns as "transitional", and these non-RSR guns as "pilot" or "interim".

Yes, and I believe that is probably the right designation skjos, I have letters ordered fom Roy Jinks, so I guess we will see what he has to say.

I refer to the interim, pilot, and AIP pistols as "true transitionals", as they were all actually made during the second-to-third gen transition period in late 1988. I personally consider the RSR pistols as "distributor models", much like todays Talo version pistols and revolvers, as they aren't transitional at all, having been made years after the introduction of third gens. Just my personal take on it...it seems the transitional monicker came from the second gen parts used on the RSR models, probably leading one to believe they were made during the transition period, but clearly not the case. Not to take anything away from the RSR pistols, as they are very limited production, have unique to them model numbers (stamped on frame) and are clearly very collectible today, and much easier to quickly identify by their RSR serial number prefix and unique model numbers.

Question:
Recognizing that a handgun plus its original, properly labeled box equals a more desirable condition than a handgun without its box, are the serial-number prefixes TBS, TBU, TBV,TBW, and TBY likely to have been solely affixed to the transitionals as are the "RSR" prefixes assigned to the, well, the RSR guns?

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

DCW, no, they are not. The serial prefixes mentioned are scattered throughout regular production second gen and early non transitional third gens, and also all semi auto models. So that is to say that just because a pistol bears one of the listed prefixes, it is not necessarily a transitional (or pilot/interim) model, and most likely, not one. I have actually seen a few pure second gen models with the mentioned prefix serial numbers HIGHER than the "interim" pistols that I own.

Hopefully my info here isn't as "clear as mud"!

Great explanation,,, thanks Grif684

Thanks DCW, also great info, as soon as I find any more info I will let you know!

I have a 3rd gen “true transitional” question, but first a level set:

The true transitionals were classified as either interim or pilot models.

Interim models were "Pre-Pilot Test Production Guns were HAND BUILT with New 3rd Generation Modifications. Guns were built on old frame but have new Novac Beval package and new Three Dot Sight system. Guns are stamped with old Model # and box is marked "Special". (Less than 150 guns have ever been released to commercial sale.)"

Pilot models were "Pilot Guns are COMPLETE first production runs of the New 3rd Generation Auto's. The difference is they are stamped old model # and box is marked "Special". - New Frame's & Trigger Guard - New Grips - New 3rd Generation Modifications - New Three Dot Sight System - Old Markings (Less than 300 ever released to commercial sale.)"

A sales brochure that was attached to this thread indicated there were (4) interim and pilot models:

Model 4690, Product Code #103101 (Pilot), SCSW - 4690 Transitional Gun.
Model 6450, Product Code #103710 (Interim), SCSW - Transitional 645 marked 6450, 1991.
Model 6450, Product Code #103710 (Pilot), SCSW - Transitional 645 marked 6450, 1991.
Model 6590, Product Code #104001 (Interim), SCSW - 4" S 14SH FS transitional 659 marked 6590, also shipped with night sights.


However based on this thread (and others), it looks like there were more true transitional models than listed in this sales brochure:

Model 4590, Product Code #104010, SWSC - 4" S TDA 15SH AS Georgia HP 1st trigger guard.
Model 6450, Product Code #103712, SWSC - 5" S 8SH FS AM, 1985-1988.
Model 6450, Product Code #103719, SWSC - 5" S 8SH AS AM.
Model 6690, Product Code #104051, SWSC - 3-1/2" S 12SH FS AM, 1986-1988.
Model 7450, Product Code #103906, SWSC - 5" B/S 8SH AS Special, 1990.

Now for my question:
Do these unlisted transitional models fall into the interim or pilot configurations; or are they still in a 2nd gen configuration?

- I've seen a 459 that looked exactly like a 5903, and SCSW does mention 5903's with 459 markings, so I'm pretty sure that is a Pilot model.

- The pictures I saw of the 7450, it looked like it was in a 2nd gen configuration with no modifications.

Skjos, I guess my answer to you would be to review post #10 from griff684, as far as getting more info he is your best bet, everything I have learned about them is from his posts.

Here is a scan of a advertisement on Interim and Pilots, for what its worth.

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FWIW, I have a Model 645/4506 I bought new in September, 1988. TBR95xx, third gen slide on second gen frame. I have never shot it.

CAN ANYONE PLEASE HELP!!
Can anyone please help identify if my 659 is an interim or pilot model?
I don't have the original box. But here are some pics. The first picture is recent with new/original grips and the rest are pics with the hogue grips I bought it with.
It is marked 659 but has a 3rd gen frame and many 3rd gen slide features.
Thanks.

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Skjos

I recently purchased this very well maintained 745 with the box marked 7450 and product code 103906. Could it be a transitional ?

Thanks and cheers!!!
David

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I'm not savy enough to place two pics in one post yet...here is a pic of the label

Cheers!!!
David

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Mikedtkd, it looks like a 6590 interim model to me.

Dparker,
The 745 is a little bit of a mystery, it retains all the 2nd gen features, but it is noted on the box as 745"0" like the pilot/interim models, and it has a TBYxxxx serial number. I'm not sure if it can be considered a transitional when it does not include any 3rd gen changes from the original 745, but I'm not not a true expert on these transitionals.

DParker, here is a scan of my end label for my 7450, I was told that this was a special run of 100 pistols and to distinguish that they added the "0" to the 745, so not a true "transition" pistol.

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Thanks Chief-wahoo...I noticed your special order no is 136 and mine is 156...any clue what may be the difference?

Thanks & Cheers!!!
David

No I don't I was just looking at that myself!

Just realized from my Original post that i have added a 6450 to my collection!

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I bought my Model 745 new October, 1990. It is the last style, no DVC markings, an adjustable rear sight, checkered wooden stocks. Serial number TFJ4092, marked 745 on the gun, 7450 on the box.

Still unfired and could be bought...

Much appreciated! I have another thread asking for help identifying if my 659 is an interim or pilot and haven't received an answer yet, so your help is appreciated
. I wish S&W or an informed individual would post an article with all the facts and information about these interim/pilot models since people look to collect them.
Thanks again Mike D

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BUFF

Out of curiosity....what is your special order ?

Thanks & Cheers!!!
David

Again, "Well?"

I'm anxious to learn the outcome of "the letters," as I feel they could provide important, relevant information on this topic, Especially since I just recently acquired a 4690.

Later.

Yes, it is.

On my 745 box and pistol, noted above, serial number TFJ5492, adjustable sight, wood stocks, has on the box label '7450' as the model number, with product code 103906 and Spec Ord 0229. There is, in the top left corner of the label, above the Model No, the digits 900. Model 745 is rollmarked on the frame.

As far as factory letters, Roy Jinks is on vacation in Italy now, wreaking havoc on fine wine stores and tearing the covers off of golf balls and won't be doing letters until June. For those who haven't seen this news in other sections, it appears that the factory is getting out of the historical letters business and they will be done, if at all, by the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation. More news will be posted as this change shakes out.

Hey Buff did you ever get rid of your 7450?

No, still have it.