I just picked up a firearm. It is in fantastic condition.

The frame has both a serial number and a Performance Center logo.

It has night sights (obviously dim)

There is no model number or model name on the firearm.

It is in a PC Box but the end label has fallen off

It looks like a Shorty Forty, but it is chambered in 357SIG


Has anyone ever seen one of these? I have not.

I've never seen one, but I wish I had found that....that may qualify for THE most unique 3rd. gen yet

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witty signature goes here

COooooooooool...... new one on me.....custom?....... after marked barrel?....... redone chamber on a 9mm?


Wikipedia...... .357Sig introduced in 1994........ about the time frame of thePC..... SD pistols and the Shorty-9s

Impressive! There sure has been some rare stuff showing up lately...

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

Dang! This is a new one in my book!

timn8er, I know you and I have accumulated quite a few semi autos but this is for sure the first time I've ever seen a 357 Sig chambered 3rd gen, and definitely an oddball for the shorty series. I wonder if Smith and Wesson made a run of these with multiple barrels or if this was just run of 1500 like like 9's,40's, and 45's.

-SVT28

I've never even heard of a 3rd Gen chambered in 357 Sig, I bet it would be fun to shoot...If you could bring yourself to shoot it, that is. It's probably too rare to consider shooting...

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

If you gave it to John Wayne, he'd shoot it.


The only reason I would not shoot a particular gun is if it wasn't safe to fire...
that's my benchmark for safe queens...it might very well blow up

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

Under the foam in the box was a Performance Center business card.

I called Smith and Wesson, unfortunately the gentleman named on the card retired many years ago.

Smith and Wesson has no 6 digit product code associated with this serial number. In fact they had no entry at all for this serial number. Very strange indeed, a data entry error perhaps?

The two Customer Service reps I talked with have no memory of any 3rd generation, 357SIG Performance Center offerings.

The barrel is clearly an original Briley just like a Shorty Forty is supposed to have. It is factory marked 357SIG and not a remarked/rechambered 9MM barrel.

I went through the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson and did not locate information on any of the Shorty Forty runs having been known to use the LENxxxx serial number range.

I wonder if the Performance Center gunsmith whose card was in the box might have made this as one of his personal firearms?

Or the gunsmith made it to these specs for someone else. Either way it seems one off. A few questions...

Is the magazine etched .357 sig or another caliber?

How many rounds does the mag hold?

Can it fire with the mag disconnected?

Can you make out the date on the side of the dim night sights. That could give you an idea of when it was produced in the nineties if those are indeed the originals.

Also, is the serial number above 100 or below?

I typically don't think a letter to Roy is beneficial for a 3rd Gen but in the years I'm been collecting these I couldn't think of a more deserved lettered gun.

-SVT28

Wow, I want that.

Only yesterday I was trying to search around and see what it would cost to have a ground-up custom barrel made for a CS40 or similar. The .357Sig is my current carry in a Sig P320, but some steel in the linup would be nice.

The magazine is marked 40S&W. It holds 11 just like the Shorty Forty.

If this is a one off, I doubt they would set up to remark magazines.
NO, it has the magazine disconnect in place
The sights are dated 91.

The first Shorty Forties came out in 1992.........Hmmmmm
It is actually over 4000.

So this is not part of a Distributor Exclusive offering with a custom prefix, they just used the next serial number in line.
If through some clerical error, this pistol's data did not get into the computer, I not too sure how much insight Roy could provide in a Historical letter.

I would think that at the bare minimum, Mr. Jinks could figure out where it was sent when it left S&W. That's a Federal requirement and I don't think there is a lot of wiggle room for a clerical error.

If it was shipped to a distributor (and they are still in business) it would be the next place to poke around.

I would be most curious if Mr. Jinks would refund the cost of a letter in the event he couldn't provide any information on the pistol.

Remember at about this time S&W was trying to get its own cartridge off the ground the .356TSW....... so I have my doubts it would have been making .357sigs to compete.............................

I'm still amazed that the .357 SIG was introduced in '94. I woulda guessed early 2000s. Cool pistol!

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Because of the metric system?

Serial Number mystery aside, I think this is just a re-barreled .40 cal, done by a competent gunsmith.

This is one of the most interesting and intriguing finds I've ever seen described here on the Forum.

What I notice most is the "LEN" prefix for the serial number. Never seen one of those.

I'm wondering if "LE" is for "law enforcement," as if this were perhaps a sample produced for that market. Maybe the "N" relates to the night sights?

Yes, it's true that the 356TSW was being developed around the same time, but remember: that round was to fit a niche in competition shooting, and that window closed shortly afterward. Nothing would have prevented S&W from pursuing both calibers simultaneously, IMHO.

Ballistics of the 356TSW and the 356Sig are comparable, and it's been bemoaned here before that S&W missed the boat by not marketing the 356TSW more actively. Maybe the 357 Sig was in the back of their minds all along....

What a beauty of a pistol....

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

*
Ding ding ding. I think this is the winner. It was my first thought when I saw it. Given that the .40 S&W is the parent cartridge of the .357Sig (the case is beefier inside in addition to being necked down, so it is not an exact linear descendant), I am pretty that it would be easy to do this install, and the .40 mags would work fine.

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NHI, 10-8.

That was my first thought when I saw the pistol as well.

Seeing the LE*xxxx serial number I was thinking Lew Horton. I sent an E-mail off to Earl, but he is out of town until Monday

Then I also found it very unusual for there to be a Performance Center employee's business card stashed under the foam. So I called S&W to see if he was still working there. No luck, I knew it was a long shot

Then when Customer Service told me there was not record of the serial number or a SKU associated with this serial number I started thinking..........

S&W could have built up a tool room sample in 357SIG to have as a comparison platform while the 356TSWs were being developed.

I also thought that the Performance Center gunsmith whose card was in the box might have built it as a personal firearm since the Factory was not offering a 3rd gen pistol in 357SIG. An employee purchase might not be recorded in the Customer Service computer. Obviously it would be recorded in the bound book, but that tells nothing more than the transferee and of course Customer Service would not have access to the bound book.

Would a Smith and Wesson employee put a business card in a normal Shorty Forty's box? I can not imagine a reason.

Now a Performance Center employee's business card might be dropped into a box for a firearm that came into the Performance Center for work. However, at a customer's request, would Smith and Wesson convert a firearm to a cartridge that they did not offer? I would not think so.

So unless I can learn the configuration that this pistol left the factory in or someone else has one and chimes in, this will probably continue to be a mystery.

May be me or may be the pictures.....but does the finish on the slide........looks......"different" than other PC guns of the era??????????

Could it be a Shorty-40 marked slide........ de-blued/in the white????????

You'd think if someone had it "built" it would show signs of being carried....... but the gun looks mint...............???????


There's another thread right now about a some PC .356 TSWs........ all the posters mags were marked ".356TSW"...... how are your mags marked...? Might be a "clue"!!!!!

I think the op is the owner of those too

I am not sure what you mean. It looks like most all of the early Shorty Forties that I have handled. That is why the caliber surprised me.
The slide is not marked in any manner. Shorty Forty slides were stainless
Not sure what "Clue" you mean. The Magazine is marked 40S&W. Smith and Wesson would probably not go to the trouble of marking one or two mags for a tool room sample gun. Many of the SIGMA SW357Vs are found with magazines marked 40S&W

My imperfect recollection is that the .357Sig was introduced after the departure of most or all of the third generation models. It is perfectly possible that a left over frame was made up this way, or that the employee from the PC fitted the barrel to his own pistol at some point.

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NHI, 10-8.

Of course that is possible

However, the Shorty Forty was produced at least until 1995.

The 357SIG cartridge was introduced a year before that in 1994 and firearms/ammunition development had to start even earlier.

So at a minimum there was a one+ year overlap.

Without locating a factory record of the firearm, we are all just speculating.

BTW, Smith and Wesson manufactured several models of 3rd generation autoloaders for decades beyond the development of the 357SIG cartridge. They are made in the Houlton Maine facility, not Springfield. They are not offered to the general public, they are used to fulfill Law Enforcement and Government contracts.

The 3rd Gen line was cataloged until 2006, IIRC. I have a 3913TSW that was produced in 2002 and others with dates in the late 1990s.

Then there was that very nice 3914TSW with a 2012 production date that someone had pictures of within the last year or so.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Not all Shorty 40s had bare stainless slides.... many were blue, some were blue with polished flats and many were marked/billboards such as "Shorty 40 mk3" (do a Goggle search "images of S&W shorty 40)

From the pictures the stainless look......"off" to me .....thinking it might have been "buffed" to de-blue or remove a "Shorty 40" or Performance Center" (p369 SCS&W) billboard. (but as I said could be me or the picture) or a bit of "oil/lube"
oil"

Ya but if the magazine was marked ".357sig" to me that would be a clue that it was a factory build..... part of a run; maybe for an agency or contract bid.....marked as 40S&W is inconclusive (to me) but an aftermarket conversion would more likely than not just use .40 mag.

Ya it's all speculation without a letter......... assume that's why you brought it here; asking for our knowledge or speculation (I've owned 6 PC autos from the mid 90s over the years.....in 9mm and .45 still have 4)

Fairly common practice to have a companion barrel in 357 Sig to go along with a 40S&W barrel that the gun shipped with. 40S&W is parent case for the 357 Sig.

Worth a letter, and maybe a ship back to S&W for a 40 barrel, fitted to your slide.

Actually, the 40 S&W is not the parent case of 357SIG, If you attempt to form 357SIG from a 40 S&W case you end up with brass that is .10" too short. The cartridges do share a case head. 357SIG can be properly formed from trimmed down 10MM Auto brass, though you then have a different primer size

I am not a fan of 40S&W and would not spend money converting a 357SIG pistol into that caliber. Though I do realize lots of folks like the convertible pistol concept.

I'm with Colt on this.....I had 9mm and .45s before either were introduced and really didn't see the "need" to expand into the "latest and greatest" rounds.........

but do have to admit I've got a "used" Sig 229 with both .357 and .40 barrels and a half dozen mags in the safe..... just in case I can only find that ammo .

Everyone has valid points but what I cannot get over is the serial number.

LEN0xx

With this serial, I can't imagine it being a Shorty Forty Re-barreled. This had to have been a extremely limited run or one off from the performance center for experimentation for the .357 Sig Caliber. Maybe a performance center employee's initials are LEN?

It looks like it's been shot, soooo when can we have a range report? Ha!

Svt28

Retired don't necessarily mean dead...I'd try to track the fella down
More than likely someone probably knows the guy...fair chance someone on here would know...
all they'd need to see is the Card

Of course there's always the Person Tracker websites...a few bucks could score you some answers

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

This gave me an idea, I called S&W and inquired about the serial number before and after this pistol.

Neither are Shorty 40s, so LENxxxx was a run of one firearm

Also Roy gave me a ship date of January 1993 and came up with product code 170011 which is a Shorty 40 product code. This was a year before the official introduction of the 357SIG

I know that toolroom samples get assigned existing product codes, I have a autoloader with a Titanium slide that is coded as a two tone stainless. They do not want the work to create a SKU for something they are just getting rid of one piece of.

That gun is sweeet ;...even the second time around..... any idea where it shipped???

As a Shorty 40 mk3 owner and a Sig 229 SAS in 357 sig, it looks like a custom house job for some contract or a one off. The performance center could take the standard Shorty 40 and build it easily for the 357 Sig since it is essentially a 40 casing necked down to 9mm.

It looks like an interesting piece, I am sure it will be easier to handle than the standard Shorty 40. I love mine, they are really neat pistols

Yep dead on as I own a Blue MK3 with factory LPA adjustable sights. Also had it's twin walk in to the pawn shop I work in a few weeks ago right down to the LPA adjustables. Guy saw mine told me he had one and showed up a few days later with a dead mint possibly unfired version in the box he was given by his father!!

As you state, the pirctured firearm is a Shorty 40 mk3 (SKU 170061). It is not a Shorty 40 (SKU 170011)

As far as I recall all of the 170061s that were produced were blue

and they came with fixed and adjustable sites. Do not really know what Mk3 stands for other than it being the 3rd version in the series.

Don't know how I missed this thread but that short .357 Sig is HOT ! thanks for posting Mark. Sell it to me ?

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Historical Letter arrived today . . . . A Treasure chest full of information

Factory Letter confirms that Smith & Wesson produced it as a 357SIG pistol

The first name of the person that it was made for is Len

It shipped to the Late Husband of the widow that I acquired it from.

It was sent C/O a gun range that was about 100 yards from my Father's first Auto repair shop in Pembroke Pines. Both businesses were in the same industrial park when it shipped on January 27th of 1993. That happens to be the week after my 22nd Birthday

I think it was trying to get too me as a Birthday Present all these years . . . . . My Precious

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"Acta non verba"

The 1994 SIG P229 is supposed to be the first production pistol chambered for the 357 SIG.

Doesn't it seem odd that S&W would make a pistol chambered for someone else's cartridge a year before that company's pistol debut?

I wonder when the 357 SIG cartridge's SAAMI specs were made available to the public?

You'd think SIG wouldn't want another manufacturer to release something before them, considering the their developments costs & the specs would be hush-hush before?

Not trying to put your nice pistol down, it's cool, just seems strange??

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Not strange at all

In this case the pistol was made for someone that obviously had lots of pull with the Factory. Whether he had it done just for Fun or if it was a business venture we may never know

It is not uncommon for folks to begin exploring a cartridge before the originator "Officially" releases it

I was loading and shooting the 500 Smith & Wesson Magnum cartridge half a year before the revolver was introduced at SHOT.

When I talked to Herb Belin at SHOT that year, he was still deciding if the cartridge should be submitted to SAAMI as a 60,000 PSI max or just 50,000

My two single shot barrels had the chambers EDM cut because there were no reamers yet. I did not have access to a pressure barrel, so I had no idea what those first loads were running at until about a year later.

Then there are the loads of wildcats that never get submitted to SAAMI.

At least as of last year 22TCM was not submitted to SAAMI

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"Acta non verba"

Glock was offering the G22 chambered in .40 S&W before the first S&W 4006's were being shipped... but Glock stole some ammo from a trade show. (Allegedly!)

Well, a NEAT pistol & story! Very nice, congratulations! Thank you for sharing; this must be a sweet 3rd Gen.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909