Recently aquired a 4516-1. Later I ran across a mag marked 4561 only not for use in 4516-1. What is the difference in the mags and why can't one be used in other?

There may be info here - 4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2

After reading that article, I have to ask. Except for the grips, & safety levers, was there any difference between the 645, & the early 4506? GARY

My 4516-1 came with magazines marked for 4516-1 only, not for use in 4516. I suspect that is what you saw. I forget why dash 1 mags won’t work in a no dash. My dash 1 runs great with all vintages of S&W factory magazines.

The big difference between the 645 and 4506 is the frame. Except for its 1911 style pinned in mainspring housing the 645’s back strap is part of the frame. Under its wrap around stock or grip the back of the 4506’s frame is open. The 4506’s mainspring seats in a hole in the stock. They use the same slide and barrel. Except for the sear spring their lock work parts interchange. The 645’s unnecessary half cock notch was eliminated so it would not be felt during the double action pull but the hammers still interchange.

18DAI's great post on the entire Model 4516 family... http://smith-wessonforum.com/137063166-post3.html ... got me thinking. I own a 4516-1 and would love to own a 4516-2 &/or 457S as well. But what about a 4516 (No Dash)? There were two of them for sale at last Saturday's show... one allegedly "unfired" for top dollar and one used one in decent condition for $439. I was a little tempted to go for the latter, but held off mainly due to a rash of upcoming bills.

I've used an assortment of 7 round S&W .45 mags in my 4516-1, never noticed a failure to seat or feed. 4506/645 mags also work in my 4516-1 model as well as my CS45, they just stick out a bit. I would assume that since those fit and function, they would work in a 4516 no dash?

Still not sure. Can I use the 4516 mag in the 4516-1?

Does your mag have the orange follower?? According to the label, if you have a yellow follower mag you can.

Funny, both mags have the same part number. PN 190740000. To me that would mean the mag on the left was made earlier before the 4516-1 existed. Later on, when the 4516-1 was released, they changed the package to say 4516 and 4516-1. GARY

This might not always be the case. The magazines that came with my new 4516-1 had yellow followers and are etched for use in 4516-1 and etched not for use in 4516 no dashes.
Edit to add: I Bought my dash 1 about 1991 and have kept an eye out for used mags ever since. I've never seen a 4516 series mag with a follower that had the reddish orange color used in the first 4506 mags. I believe S&W abandoned that color for .45 followers before the introduction of the 4516 no dash. However, I've been wrong before.

You guessed wrong. Magazines sold with black followers are the newest variety. Notice the elongated detent near the black follower magazine's lip. That is the new feature in black follower 4506-x and 4516-x magazines. It holds the top cartridge back while the slide is returning forward above it better than the small detent in yellow follower magazines did. Some sellers upgrade the older color followers to black followers so you have to know the changes made near the magazine lips to identify a magazine's vintage.

To me that doesn't make sense. Since both mags have the same part number, they should both work in both guns. While there maybe visual differences, that part number has the same application. Some vendors have NOS laying around, but if that part number says it fits a gun, that's all that matters. S&W would issue a different part number for the 4516-1 if it made a difference. GARY

It's the original post that makes no sense to me. Why would a 4516 mag manufactured before any dash reversions were made to the 4516 be marked not for use in dash 1s? I suspect the original poster's memory of what he saw is wrong.
3rd generation .45 followers changed from yellow to black in the later 1990s. That I'm sure of. I'm certain both 4506 and 4516 dash what evers both still had yellow followers in 1996.

k22fan. My memory is fine. in fact I am looking at the mag in question right now. it clearly says for use M4516 only not for use in s&w M4516-1 or any other revision of M4516. I consider myself to be reasonably literate so I am sure I have the wording right. It also has an orange follower. Sorry not color blind either.Gee ya think this mag could have been made for the 4516 after the 4516-1 and other revisions?

yup thats what I have. Make sense yet?

That's a mag I have not seen before. My guess is it was made during the same time as my 4516-1 with its mags that have the opposite restriction on their use. Perhaps during that time period there were separate part numbers. I thought the yellow follower mags with no restriction etched on their side that I bought used without packaging were 4516 no dash mags made before my gun. They match jughead440's mag that is still in its wrapper marked for both the no dash and dash one so apparently I was wrong. I learned something.

If you have not bought the mag you are inquiring about why would you buy it? If you already own it get out the range and report back whether it works or not.

yes I have the mag. When I get to the range I will let you guys know if it works or not.

S&W must have gone through the magazine design changes for some reason. Back in the 1990s it was written or rumored that 4516 no dashes had reliability problems that were solved by dash 1 engineering changes. The magazine redesigns tend to support that story.

Maybe related to this?

SMITH & WESSON
MODEL 4506, 4516, 645 & 745,
45 AUTO CALIBER, PISTOL MAGAZINES

RECALL: It has come to our attention that a small number of users have experienced cartridge-feeding problems with Smith & Wesson magazines for .45 ACP pistols. This can result in a failure to feed or jamming, and thereby a failure to fire. The cause of this problem is the magazine.

This recall applies to two types of MAGAZINES ONLY:


Magazines manufactured by Smith & Wesson for Pistol Model number 4516.

Smith & Wesson requests that you inspect your caliber .45 ACP magazine to determine if it is subject to this recall. To determine if your magazine is affected, follow these simple inspection procedures:
A.Inspection Procedure for Magazines for Model 4506, 645, or 745 Pistols.

1.Remove the magazine from the firearm following the procedure set forth in the instruction manual. Before proceeding further, you must ensure that the pistol and magazine are unloaded.
2.Examine the butt plate of the magazine. If the butt plate is not molded plastic with a crescent- shaped cutout molded into the bottom near the front edge, then the magazine is not affected by this recall. If the butt plate is molded plastic and contains a crescent-shaped cutout molded into the bottom near the front edge, proceed directly to the next step.
3.Carefully inspect each broad flat side of the magazine near the plastic butt plate. If a punch mark is present above the butt plate on either side of the magazine, your magazine is not affected by this recall.
4.If, however, a punch mark is not present on the right side at the bottom, your magazine must be replaced.
B.Inspection Procedure for Magazines for Model 4516 and 4516-I Pistols.

Any magazines shipped by Smith & Wesson with model 4516-I pistols are already inscribed for use in that particular model and are NOT subject to this recall.
1.Remove the magazine from the firearm following the procedures set forth in the instruction manual. Before proceeding further, you must ensure that the pistol and magazine are unloaded.
2.Inspect each broad flat side of the magazine. If neither side is inscribed "For S&W M4516 only" or "For S&W M4516-I only"; your magazine must be replaced.

To ensure reliable functioning of your Model 4516 or 4516-I pistol, the model number marked on a 7-round .45 ACP magazine must be identical to all digits of the model number stamped on your pistol. Do not use a Smith & Wesson magazine marked "M4516 only" in a pistol stamped "MOD 4516".

WARNING: DO NOT USE ONE OF THESE RECALLED MAGAZINES IN YOUR PISTOL FOR A SITUATION WHERE A FAILURE TO FIRE CAN BE CRITICAL, SUCH AS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT OR PERSONAL PROTECTION. RETURN AFFECTED MAGAZINES TO SMITH & WESSON FOR FREE REPLACEMENT.

To receive a free replacement magazine under this recall, send the magazine to be replaced directly to:


Smith & Wesson
Attention: Magazine Exchange
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01102

Or call toll-free 800-458-8469 between 8 AM and 5 PM EST. You will need to provide the customer service representative with the model and serial numbers of your pistol. We ask that all affected magazines be returned to Smith & Wesson in trade for the new magazines.

This toll-free number can also be called if you have any questions concerning this recall.

We regret any inconvenience this may cause; however, this action was dictated by our concern for the customer's safety and the reliability of Smith & Wesson products in all circumstances.

I have one of mags like above That came with my 4516-1 and it hasn't had a problem in 22 years with lots of ammo through i.

Same here. I've used all the magazines in all 4516 variants without any trouble.

That said, in an abundance of caution, I only use the last revision magazines with the black follower in my duty and off duty 4516s. Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

IIRC the orange followers preceded the yellow ones. My 4516 no dash had mags with orange followers. A 4516-1 I owned briefly came with the yellow followers and again, IIRC was marked for use in 4516-1 only on the mag tube.

That said, ALL the magazines, orange follower/yellow follower/black follower, work in ALL the different 4516 variants with no issues. In my experience anyways.........and that of several others too.

But once again, I only suggest using the mags with the black followers in 4516s carried for serious purpose. They were the last and evidently best revision. Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: TTSH where did your post go? By the time I posted my response, your question was gone??????

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Sorry 18DAI. About 20 seconds after posting, I was able to answer my own questions. Therefore, I deleted my post.

Specifically:

1) Yellow follower M4516 family magazines were issued "gun specific" just like the orange follower magazines were.

But...

2) Not all yellow follower M4516 family magazines were so marked... i.e., some were not "gun specific."

I am even more confused now than I was before.

Were any orange follower M4516 family magazines not gun specific? I would guess so if they were the first ones out before the yellow... correct?

I found the following explanation on-line in another forum. It was specifically written about Model 4506 magazines but I'm wondering about its applicability to the Model 4516 magazines as well.

While the quote above does not offer any help at all regarding the mysterious difference(s) between 4516 (No Dash) marked magazines and 4516-1 marked magazines... it does potentially explain the transition from orange follower magazines to yellow follower magazines (the latter never being mentioned at all in the recall notice).

Given the date of the 4506/4516 magazines recall (December 1989 +/-), which was right about the time of the transition from 4516 (No Dash) to 4516-1 pistols, I'm thinking that I'm not seeing any unmarked (i.e., not model specific) orange follower 4516-series magazines in circulation because they were all (or mostly all) recalled. Does that make sense?

If it does, the following mysteries still remain:

1) Why do orange follower model-specific 4516-series magazines even exist? Why, after the recall, didn't S&W just go right to model-specific yellow follower magazines?

2) Why weren't the orange follower model-specific 4516-series magazines eventually recalled if they were causing problems as per the quote above?

3) Why do yellow follower non-model specific 4516-series magazines even exist out there in the marketplace today??? How do they fit into the picture?

S&W CS has not been able to help with this set of mysteries at all. All they can tell me is that they only sell Black followers now and that if they don't work in your particular magazine tube and gun, you are S-O-L.

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You are probably wondering why I am so crazy interested in this subject. The fact is that I own a fairly large and wide variety of 4516-family magazines and I'm looking to sell some of them in order to help pay down my debt after the excesses of last year. But I don't want to sell anything to anyone that is not going to be 100% reliable.

Gentlemen,

Seems there were 4 different mags, orange follower 4516 specific, yellow follower 4516-1 specific, yellow follower, not specific to weapon, and the black follower.

The 2 pictures show the yellow follower that can be used in the 4516 and the -1

Attached Images

	s-l1600.jpg (26.9 KB, 90 views)
	s-l1600 (1).jpg (67.2 KB, 93 views)

You missed at least two: orange follower 4516-1 specific and yellow follower 4516 (no dash) specific.

As I see it, the only remaining question is why there aren't any orange follower non-specific (i.e., unmarked) magazines out in the wild? They must have existed early on, right? Were they all recalled under the recall notice? Every last one of them?

I find that hard to believe.

I've found the Earth spins off its axis if you use the wrong magazines in the wrong variants...

Actually, my sneaking suspicion is it's a prank to make sure we all keep talking about the guns.

Recently, I found a .45 mag with a black follower that said -- you guessed it -- this magazine must have a yellow follower...

(The above being a classic example of S&W humor...)

The crafty Devils on $bay are selling black followers for 4516 mags. I've seen them on Gunbroker as well...