WARNING & DISCLAIMER: This is a loony moonbat state-related thread. Members aggravated or annoyed by such threads, please do not read or reply. Even worse, it is a .40S&W-related thread. That makes it even worse.

++++++++++++++++++

Recently, a few members of Team 3rd Gen have noticed that I've been going a little nutty trying to figure out which .40S&W 11-round 3rd Gen magazines are pre-ban and which are post-ban as I am only allowed to possess pre-ban hi-cap magazines (those over 10-rounds) or I become an instant felon. For a long time now, I've gone by the blue follower vs. yellow follower rule even though it is clear that the switch to blue followers pre-dated the 1994 Federal AWB. Sticking with the older yellow follower magazines was simply playing it super-safe. I've even gone so far as to replace blue followers in two of my pre-bans with yellow followers just in case our cops and DA's don't know any better.

Fast forward to my most recent purchase, a Model 410S manufactured in 2005. One would naturally assume that the magazines that came with a gun manufactured post-AWB sunset would have post-ban 11-round magazines included with it, correct? But here is what's confusing me: They still have the (now expired) S&W trademark "Accu-Guide" on them.

S&W applied for the "Accu-Guide" (or "Accuguide") trademark in 1990 about the same time the .40S&W round was developed. The trademark was officially granted in 1991 and sometime between 1990 and 1994, S&W turned out its first .40S&W 11-round magazines with blue followers and the "Accu-Guide" trademark stamped onto the magazines. During the Federal AWB, S&W turned out "Accu-Guide" 10-round magazines for civilians and 11-round magazines for the cops... the latter magazines marked "for cops & export only."

The Federal AWB ended in 2004. Production of .40S&W 10/11-round 3rd Gens ended in 2007, although most such models were discontinued much earlier. The S&W trademark "Accu-Guide" (or "Accuguide") was legally abandoned in 1998. Someone else unrelated to S&W or firearms now owns that trademark.

You can probably see where this is going. Did S&W actually re-start the manufacture of non-cop-restricted 11-round .40S&W magazines for civilians at some point after 2004? After almost all 10/11-round .40S&W 3rd Gens had been discontinued? And if they did, why would they continue to use a trademark on them that was abandoned sometime before 1998?

Bottom line: Suddenly I am not so sure that the magazines included with that Model 410S are, in fact, post-bans. Is it possible that a 2005 pistol would be shipped with magazines manufactured pre-1994? Or is it more likely that S&W was just careless or negligent about using a long-expired trademark no longer legally owned by them?

I've seen some very old S&W magazines in new-style packaging lately. I've even bought some... so nothing would surprise me.

Your opinions please.

Interesting questions. Out of curiosity, how would you able to definitively prove to any overly zealous person in a position of authority that your pre-ban magazines are actually pre-ban?

While it is a little but tough to follow what you're saying (to be honest -- those of us who live in free states just typically do NOT think this way without genuine effort...), the one bit that occurs to me that does not appear to be given much nod in your post is:

S&W has a long, long, LONG and even documented history of making a slew of something, putting it in a box on a high shelf, and pulling it out again & putting it in to "use" later. Often, MUCH later, and in some cases, "out of order" with respect to a superceding design.

Also, and I hesitate to mention this because it may come off as a direct thread drift and "not specifically related", but simply as a sign of the times: it was also recently documented in a book about Glock that Glock bent over backwards in the early days of the AWB to give tremendous deals to large LE organizations on brand new AWB-era guns & equipment that also included the organization sent BACK all the pre-ban stuff in trade. Glock was sly enough to figure that Grandfathered pre-ban hardware had serious resale value and the LE organizations wouldn't care one iota, since they were not subject to the restrictions of the AWB. Glock likely made a PILE of money on pre-ban stuff they got back in their hands.

Thread drift? Perhaps. And/or... perhaps Smith & Wesson did something VERY similar.

That's a good question... in CA it's been suggested that you have dated receipts, but that's about to be turned into a moot point if the ballot initiative legislation our dear Lt. Governor is pushing gets passed into law... then in CA anything over 10rds is banned period, the previously grand-Fathering +10 magazines instantly become illegal.

__________________
Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

Every magazine Smith and Wesson produced after Sep 13, 2004 is a non-restricted magazine for anyone to possess under Federal Law no matter what text might be on it.

3rd Gen S&Ws have been in production at the facility in Houlton Maine, they are not discontinued, they are just not marketed to the general public. Examples as recent as 2012 manufacture dates have shown up right here on the Forum.

For the trademark not to be on the magazines any longer, someone in the legal department would have had to notify someone responsible for the CNC machine code and the code would have to be modified to not do that step any longer.

I doubt that occurred since abandoning something is not necessarily a conscious action. Things can be abandoned due to inaction.

I think you are over analyzing the magazines.

If a reasonable person bought a gun manufactured after the Expiration of the Crime and Control Act of 1994, it would be fair to presume that the magazines supplied with it were of a similar manufacture date.

Why all this BS over one round? Why not just get the 10 round magazines?

Because 11-round magazines happened to come with the gun I bought. I have a trade deal pending... but I'm now starting to wonder if it's necessary.

Oddly enough, most folks use the 11-round .40 magazines as 10-rounders anyway because that last round can be awfully hard to get in there... ... or they chamber from the magazine and don't top off. But that won't stop my beloved state government from declaring me a "one extra round" felon.

Well, that's the whole reason for my questions here today. I want to be damn sure that I am 100% legal. The odds of trouble are actually quite low... but the penalties are so insanely brutal and costly that one must take the issue very, VERY seriously.

Understand your pain TTSH. Doesn't a move to Florida or Arizona sound tempting? Maybe even Vermont if ya don't mind freezing!!

You raise a very interesting point about the Federal AWB of 1994. We know that hi-cap magazines legally possessed by individuals prior to the Federal AWB were exempt from the law. We also know that most of law enforcement just went by the date of manufacture of the magazines rather than trying to prove a date associated with "legal possession."

So the question is this: Was S&W legally able to sell off all the pre-ban hi-caps they already had in stock after the Federal AWB was passed? And if so, did they do that? I should know the answer to those questions but I don't.

Obviously, if they were allowed to do so and did... then all non-restriction marked hi-caps sold by them after the AWB sunset date would have to have been newly manufactured... correct?

Manufacturers of magazines were responsible for marking them as restricted/LE only -- and any magazines they made without those markings were 10rds or less.

Pre-ban magazines were NEVER illegal to own or to sell or to furnish. They were illegal to PRODUCE. Gun stores, distributors and manufacturers were shipping NEW, never owned guns with pre-ban magazines in them and that was legal also.

They shipped them legally until they ran out of them.

I just took a look at the AWB bill, H.R. 3355. Section 110103, paragraph (d). Paraphrasing here, this portion of the law mandated that any feeding device over 10 rounds manufactured after the effective date of the law be marked/dated so as to identify it as a post ban item.

If none of your magazines is marked as being restricted for LE or export, that would seem to potentially cover part of your issue since an argument could be made that unmarked means pre-ban. Since the AWB was something that every manufacturer knew was coming, there was ample time to gear up magazine or magazine body production.

I would guess that if the authorities decided to pursue the post ban magazine matter, they would have to find an expert witness who could establish post ban manufacture. I don't know if that would be S&W, but who else could provide accurate documentation on when they produced an item?

Any idea if S&W could shed light on this?

I get your point. Still we would be talking about a stainless steel magazine cut and formed in 2005 (+/-, per your argument) with an S&W trademark rolled into the stainless steel that was legally abandoned in 1998 and picked up not long thereafter by another unrelated company. I find it very hard to believe that no one inside or outside of S&W noticed or cared. S&W is supposed to have such a crack legal team.

Of course we still don't know for certain whether these .40 3rd Gen magazine bodies were made in-house or sub-contracted out. I've heard it both ways. It could be that no one ever told the sub-supplier not to use the expired trademark.

... which was my first assumption and why I alerted my FFL to hang onto the magazines for me while I tried to trade or sell them to someone in a free state. And it may be that I still go that route if my suspicions about them possibly being pre-ban leftovers are wrong.

One can't look at this question without considering the fact that most of the cataloged 11-round .40S&W 3rd Gens were discontinued before the 2004 AWB sunset date. The 410/410S was the one big exception to that rule.

Then if that is the case, my 410S came with post-ban magazines and I better go through with the trade I've arranged. Thank you for clarifying that.

There are so few instances of case law on this "pre-ban" restriction that I don't think anyone knows what a PRM ADA might do. All I can tell you is that the penalties are onerous and you can kiss goodbye to your license, your money, your collection and your life if you take a risk and lose.

I highly doubt S&W CS would be of any help. My luck with them has not been great lately.

Believe me, I feel your pain. I have a ton of money invested in these ****** old pre-bans. The only thing government can do that's worse is to ban them altogether.

The People's Republic of Vermont??? No thanks!!!

Come up to New Hampshire. We need all the pro gun voters we can muster. We are still living free and are not dead.
Jim

We would if we could. Your super-high property taxes up there are the number one thing preventing it. Not good for old retired folks without a lot of money.

Read this thread......my head hurts!!!!!

It's not like I didn't warn you!

Wait, did I miss something here???? Sevens said many guns sold after 1994 were shipped with *PRE-BAN* magazines and you jumped to yours had to be post-ban?

Unless you bought the gun BNIB from the original distributor, there's no telling what magazines were in it, and no link between gun mfg date and magazine mfg date. Those sound like pre-ban magazines to me (from the data you present) and I believe you are good to go.

I bought a pre-1994 6906 used which shipped to me with LEO-marked 12-rds, so again, there's no connection between gun mfg date and magazine mfg date.

solomon..... makes a good point....... gun leaves S&W in 94 ( or any year with 10+ rounds mags) sits in a distributor or gun shop for a year or more.


Unless it's one of the LE marked mags.......

Or just bury them in your backyard until TEOTWAWKI......................

Years ago during the ban we all had to endure, all newly made hi cap mags had the LE warning on them. However I remember a guy walking the gun show with brand new Glock non LE marked hi cap mags. He was a German fellow who purchased them in Austria where there was no rule to mark them LE, & he sold every mag he had in 5 minutes at $50 each. GARY

The take-away from Sevens' post is that all (or at least most) of the pre-ban hi-cap 3rd Gen magazines already manufactured and in S&W's stock at the start of the Federal AWB (1994) were likely sold off in the year (or years?) immediately following the ban. I was unclear if the manufacturers were allowed to do that (i.e., sell off already manufactured stock) and Sevens confirmed that the Feds did allow them to do that.

If it really happened that way, then my 410S... manufactured 11 years later in 2005... most likely has post-ban magazines, this despite the fact that they are identical to late-manufactured pre-ban magazines even down to the long-expired/abandoned trademark.

A few more points:
1) I have no reason to believe that the two magazines sold with my 410S aren't original to the gun. Both the gun and the magazines appear clean and "as-new"...

2) What confused me most was the use (in 2005?) of the old trademark, which was legally abandoned in 1998... but explanations have been offered regarding how that could have happened.

3) What also confused me was the fact that most 10/11-round .40 3rd Gens were discontinued during the Federal AWB years. Restarting 11-round magazine production solely for the 410 & 410S seemed a little pointless... but that too can be explained away.

4) We do know that some pre-ban S&W magazines have survived time and still show up occasionally... some in brand new style packaging. I bought two such magazines this past year. They were original production SW40F pre-ban hi-caps. Still, this is the exception to the rule. Someone just found a bunch of leftovers.

Bottom line: Despite being identical to late-production pre-bans, I think the two magazines that came with my 410S are, unfortunately, post-bans.

me thinks you worry too much.....and yes I do get the whole felony thing.....but really??....and I did read your disclaimer and regretfully ignored it

__________________
witty signature goes here

Then you have no right to complain!

Move to Florida, you can buy a 3-br in a nice neighborhood for around 80,000-100,000 in NWF,
smokin' hot babes in bikini's 11 months of the year...
all our gun laws are Anti-Criminal laws, not anti-gun laws...funny how our crime rate is HALF of Kali's...
NO state income tax...and you can still farm if you feel like it

__________________
Marlin & Calico Specialist

Oh, I get it. Honestly, I do. Now, if we could only move the whole family, in-laws & outlaws + friends... ... it might work!

BTW, I did a little more research and found that the patent stamped on the magazines had expired as well years before 2005. Let's face it: By 2005, S&W just didn't care about all-metal semi-auto pistols anymore. The Sigmas were out... the SW99's were out... and the M&P's were just coming out. Exactly how the "new" 1911's fit into their plastic switchover business plan I still don't entirely understand.

Anyway, the offending magazines are gone. Better safe than sorry. This is Massachusetts after all... and EVERYTHING's illegal in Massachusetts.

I get it. You would miss that record snowfall you had last winter. LOL. GARY

Okay wise guy. I know you don't have to "shovel" your hurricanes but I hear they can be pretty bad too!

Do what my grandfather did...he moved here from TN...
then my mom moved down from TN within a year,
then my Uncle moved to FL from Arizona,
once folks stay a week or two to visit Gramma & Grandpa,
it starts a love affair...eventually, they all move down,
or at least a lot closer, both uncles are now in Alabama...
and pretty much that entire branch is within 4 hours drive of me

The other side of the family is all within 2 & 1/2 hrs,
except for one holdout who likes Louisianna Swamps

If you build it, they will come

Besides, since the advent of A/C & home delivery of groceries,
you can take a very relaxed view of life...enjoy retirement...
fish & hunt to your heart's content...
we have a 2 Whitetail deer per day bag limit
Fresh & Saltwater fishing
All the Hog you could hope for...
and MORE!!

__________________
Marlin & Calico Specialist

Big Shrek is absolutely right....we are looking around the Spring Hill area as we speak...Ohio winters suck just a little less than Mass....right now here it's 36.....there right now 70

__________________
witty signature goes here

Haven't you two guys heard about "Global Warming"? Soon, we will have 72° winters here in the PRM... ... while you two will be frying to death down there in Florida! Or maybe you will be underwater! I can't remember which. I have trouble keeping the scary predictions straight.

The waters will rise.............

TTSH start looking in the foothills of western NC........ soon to be beach front property.........not to hot and not to cold.

While a little far north the "cabin" is on the west side of the Eastern Continental Divide.......so soon all I'll have to do is take the RZR up the trail to the top of the mountain to watch the sun rise over the Atlantic.......... a PC DPA 5906 on my hip with a PC Shorty 9 for backup and a M&P-15 in the rifle rack........for the zombies, you know; and the Mad Max looters and displaced DC bureaucrats roaming the badlands!!!!!

Ahhhhhh....... the post Apocalyptic good life..............................

But with just 4-1/2 good years left, this will be something for you and somewhat younger folks to enjoy.

It's way off topic but retirement financial projections (especially medical/dental & taxes) are beginning to scare the wife and I so much that we're no longer sure the good wife can ever retire and allow us to move to a decent retirement property anywhere. My only real hope is to kick the bucket soon... before the retirement money runs out.

Well, as a former Tennessean, anything Al Gore ever said
was pretty much full of meadow muffins...

The dock my grandfather built back in the 70's has only lost two inches
over the last 40+ years, which could just as easy have been from settling...
Every time they talk about Climate Change, I go,
"Has it snowed in Pensacola & stuck yet?? Not since 1973."

Climate Change...biggest bunch of horse hockey ever invented...

__________________
Marlin & Calico Specialist

We can always hope for Z-Nation
Most of us would be like Sgt. Tackleberry...or Sledge Hammer
Happy as pigs in slop with zombies to play with!!!

__________________
Marlin & Calico Specialist

Don't forget, Al Gore invented the internet too. GARY

The ultimate departure off-topic... into zombies and past TV and movie role models.