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Old 12-10-2015, 07:55 PM
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Default "Hush Puppy" Rear Sight Wings & Update

Folks,

Attached to this post is a kinda crappy image of the revised rear sight wings for the Mark 22 Mod 0 pistol replica. While the windage hole may be slightly off, I do not wish to risk weakening the metal on the wings' rear edge...

Also, I spoke to a gunsmith near me who is willing to try to make the slide lock for this pistol. We will try making a 3-D printed prototype first, then try to do the slide lock from 4140 steel...

Keep the faith...
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:24 AM
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Folks,

In an effort to be as complete as possible, I want to start working on the blueprints for the detachable shoulder stock for the "hush Puppy." I have a few issues in doing that, since I use Microsoft VISIO 2007 as my drawing program, and it is NOT very user-friendly for drawing curve-linear lines, such as how the back-strap of the 39-2 curves to fit into the shooter's palm. Does anyone have any ideas on how to best overcome this obstacle without having to buy software that costs thousands of dollars?

Images of the "hush puppy" and stock are attached...
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:39 AM
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Does anyone have any ideas on how to best overcome this obstacle without having to buy software that costs thousands of dollars?
Seems you have some pretty good pics there. You know I'd try simply scaling up an image of the stock until you get the right size 1:1 and start taking measurements right off the picture. It doesn't look like a terribly complex part to make. I'd think a precision bender like a small Diacro would handle the stock tubing, a mill to fab the rest and tig to put it together.

I often wing it, make a sketch on a old envelop or if I get really fancy, some graph paper, then start making chips.

If you're really set on a computer solution there are a lot of open source CAD programs out there that are pretty well regarded and often free.

Looks like a real neat project you have going on, I'm subscribing to this thread.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:51 PM
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Bill,

Do a search in the archives on my user name and you will find other threads on this subject...
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Old 12-21-2015, 02:05 PM
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Seems like the stock attachment would be pretty simple. Just remove the backstrap and use it as a pattern.

As for a CAD program, I think there is a free trial version of Sketch up available, but even with this program which is advertised to be "simple" to learn, the learning curve will be long.
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Old 12-21-2015, 03:23 PM
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Bill,

Do a search in the archives on my user name and you will find other threads on this subject...
Well I have no idea how I missed all that terrific stuff.

By the way...Did you get all the chamber and faux can plugs sorted out yet?

I use this stuff to make turn non-marring punches all the time.
Black Delrin® (more accurately termed acetal resin)

Machines easily and is very strong. It wouldn't take but a few minutes to turn a 9mm dummy round with a o-ring groove.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 12-21-2015, 06:19 PM
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Bill,

I bought a small set of 9mm snap caps I will have turned to make a pair into the barrel chamber plus. I already bought some vinyl tubing caps for the barrel muzzle cap. Still need to figure out a replica suppressor chamber cap...

Regarding the hardest item, the local gunsmith reported back to me in the affirmative that he can make the slide lock!!! We are going to make a 3-D prototype before making chips fly. He is starting to determine a price for it now...

The true rebirth of the "hush puppy" is coming up...
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Old 12-21-2015, 09:14 PM
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Hey! Glad to see this project back on track. I personally would make that shoulder stock my lowest priority. I think only a couple were ever made and they were not issued. The one you pictured is with an Airsoft gun, of course, and the holster is missing the mag pouch on the front of it. I think you've got the hardest problem solved, i.e. the sights. What progress have you made on a threaded barrel?
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Old 12-21-2015, 09:23 PM
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Kevin,

I have tried searching for a 5" barrel supplier, but the best solution seems to be an extension to lengthen the barrel to 5". That same gunsmith is now cutting back a barrel bushing, then he will silver solder it into a slide for me...

There are a few images form a Small Arms of the the World book with the shoulder stock. Also, I have not seen an image of the holster with a pouch for a spare mag on it, only one to hold the pistol with suppressor attached...

For my pistol, I have a spare backstrap I am going to have drilled and tapped for 1/4"-20, so it at least looks like it will accept a shoulder stock. Once my pistol is done, I am going to make an engraved walnut presentation box for the pistol and an "accessory kit" in the box. Should be cool to see...

Last edited by dvelleux; 12-22-2015 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Added info
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Old 12-21-2015, 11:06 PM
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Folks,

BMCM (Bill) has joined the team to recreate the chamber plugs for the faux suppressor and the barrel chamber. I am certain he will do well...
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Old 12-22-2015, 12:16 AM
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This whole project fascinates me. I have a shooting coach who was in the "Teams" in the '90s, and they still had some in the armory in Virginia.
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Old 12-22-2015, 12:27 AM
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Here is one of the refill kits:

I just have a few odds and ends but if you want to recreate the wipes I can give you measurements.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:23 AM
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Kevin,

Thanks for the offer, but the way our current government is functioning, even possessing a wipe may be grounds for taking away one's Second Amendment right!

I think if you can create a drawing with the measurements of the barrel chamber plugs, that would be a huge help for Bill to be accurate. With your vast connections, do you know anyone who has the chamber plug for the suppressor to reverse engineer?
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:20 AM
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Actually my photo shows a magazine, a muzzle plug, a barrel cap and a chamber plug. I don't have the back end cap plug. Is that what you mean by the chamber plug for the suppressor?
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:55 AM
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Kevin,

Yes, the plug for the threaded end of the suppressor with a lanyard...
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Old 12-22-2015, 11:06 PM
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Folks,

Just spoke with the gunsmith a bit ago. He came up with a great idea that will actually IMPROVE the slide lock above what S&W did on the originals. He suggested using a "D-hole" for where the pivot pin connects both sides of the slide lock. A "D-hole" is like a circle, but with a flattened spot on one side, thus if a matching "D-hole" is created on both sides of the slide lock, then both sides act in sync with each other...

Additionally, BMCM has already created a FANTASTIC copy of the chamber plug. Please review the attached images, but I think we already have a winner!!!
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Old 12-25-2015, 12:43 AM
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Folks,


Merry Christmas to all on this forum and their families. May the peace of the season be upon you all...


I am hoping a lawyer will see this and chime in. No, not regarding my first statement, but whatever...

With regard to the faux Mark 3 suppressor, I would like to know if we duplicated the muzzle plug, would inserting it into a recess on the faux can' muzzle be considered like the muzzle cap for the M16 rifle, or do we have to deal with a whole new ballgame?

I feel since the muzzle plug would be merely inserted into its recess to keep water out, much like the M16 muzzle cap, the ATF would not care. HOWEVER, due to the "interesting times" in which we live, what would the muzzle plug be considered?

Please feel free to respond...
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Old 12-25-2015, 01:06 AM
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The best option is to write a letter to the ATF firearms technology branch and get a ruling from them in writing. Anything else is akin to playing with fffire ie. federal firearms felony.

Contact info is here https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...ion-technology

You'll need to explain exactly what your are trying to accomplish and attach the prints. Answering inquiries just like this is what their job is. Basically you'd be asking for the ATF to rule that your faux can design is in fact not a suppressor under current law. Without the ruling in place you can still conceivably get in a bind. Even without the plastic muzzle plug in place the faux can may still be deemed a suppressor by an LE officer and seized and then sent the the aforementioned Firearms Technology Branch for legal determination.

Once you have the ruling in writing, assuming it is in your favor, You would keep a copy with the "Hush Puppy" set anytime you take it out to play so you have documentation that everything is legal in the event of an inquiry by local LE.

Merry Christmas
Cheers
Bill
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Old 12-25-2015, 01:15 AM
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One of my reference bookmarks is this repository of ATF legal rulings. You'll see here the wide range of tech issues the ATF issues rulings on.
Law and legal opinions

Cheers
Bill

BTW, I seem to recall there being some legal issues with attaching a shoulder stock to a pistol as well. When writing or call the ATF you might inquire about that too.
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Old 12-25-2015, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
One of my reference bookmarks is this repository of ATF legal rulings. You'll see here the wide range of tech issues the ATF issues rulings on.
Law and legal opinions

Cheers
Bill

BTW, I seem to recall there being some legal issues with attaching a shoulder stock to a pistol as well. When writing or call the ATF you might inquire about that too.
Good idea. My former next door neighbor has a full WW I era civilian .30 Luger kit complete with 32 round drum, shoulder stock and shoulder holster kit. It has a case, and includes the original receipt from 1918 when it was purchased from a big sporting goods outfitter in Germany, and brought back to the States. Along with it is a letter from 1973 from the ATF ruling that his kit is exempt from the shoulder stock ban since it predates the ban, and was in the states prior to the ban. Grandfathered through.

You can purchase the replica black powder long barreled revolvers with detacheable stocks because black powder firearms are exempt from the law.
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Old 12-25-2015, 12:45 PM
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Bill,

I sent an email with all the needed reference files off to the ATF just a moment ago. I made a very thorough explanation of what everything is, and the attached images show everything is as I stated it to be...

Now we sit and wait...
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:12 PM
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Folks,

I have been having some chats and doing some reading offline about the shoulder stocks. Seems very few were made and fewer were used in the field. In reading from a book by Kevin Dockery, he stated a few SEALs merely attached the pistol to a lanyard and slip the lanyard over their necks...

So should I even attempt to make drawing for the shoulder stock at this time?
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Old 12-28-2015, 09:32 PM
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Folks,

My, how our government works at times. Heard back from ATF regarding the faux suppressor; they want to see a physical copy BEFORE they make a ruling. Okay then, may be a short wait until I can save the funds to do so. I know of at least one existing faux can, but I would never ask a person to potentially lose something as the ATF examines it. So, we wait a bit, but everything else is still ongoing...
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Old 12-29-2015, 11:24 PM
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Ask then if a prototype model at 1:1 scale made of composite material would suffice to make a determination. I imagine something could be whipped up quite cheaply. Looking at your drawing, it appears the "can" is nothing more than a chunk of pipe. No baffles, no liner, essentially a barrel extension so I don't see any reason a detail model wouldn't do unless of course the ATF wants to conduct live fire testing and measure decibels

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Old 12-31-2015, 09:34 AM
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Bill,

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

We can discuss that offline, but I think a 1:1 model, with the recess in the front, would fill the bill. Just tell them this is a prototype and the real item will be of aluminum for strength...
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Old 12-31-2015, 11:12 PM
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Folks,

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

And I do feel it will be a great year that the Mark 22 Mod 0 "Hush Puppy" will truly be reborn, basically fifty years after it first saw use by the SEALs in Vietnam...

Based on input from others, I made the "executive decision" to hold off on the shoulder stock plans for now. I do realize attaching the shoulder stock to the pistol will instantly make it a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) and I do NOT wish to tangle with the ATF, hence for me, I will only create the drawings at a later date...

BMCM is about to send me two chamber plugs he created from Delrin, with two different types of O-rings, to see which works best. BMCM is also working on a mold for the back end cap plug. He will be come the source for chamber plugs, back end cap plugs, and potentially muzzle plugs, once we make up a prototype faux can to send to the ATF for their determination if they will even allow the muzzle plug on a faux suppressor to start with...

So, in summary, the slide lock is the ONLY part actually left to be made, and that is in the works right now. The remaining needed parts (front sight, rear sight wings & elevation screw, faux suppressor) already have been made. Soon anyone will be able to recreate the "Hush Puppy," to enjoy and pay tribute to those SEALs who put themselves into harm's way while carrying it...

Another update hopefully soon...
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Old 01-05-2016, 01:44 AM
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Folks,

Received a Delrin chamber plug from BMCM today. It worked PERFECTLY, but extraction was a bit of an issue, though a couple fo changes to the rim thickness and the wb diamater should resolve the issue entirely...
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Old 01-06-2016, 03:32 PM
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Folks,

Anyone know of a decent web site to learn how to make a holster? I wish to make the holster for the Hush Puppy with the faux can attached. I have made holsters in the past, but they turn out less tha I want them to be...
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:38 PM
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Folks,

Am posting a few new images of the chamber plugs done by BMCM. Later this week, else early next, I am going to head to the gunsmith to pick up the 39-2 slide he worked on to cut down the barrel bushing to the proper "ring" size, then silver soldered into its correct place to allow a 5" barrel to operate and be removed for cleaning from the slide...

Things ARE progressing. The first replica should be done shortly...
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Old 01-13-2016, 05:08 PM
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Folks,

Just heard from the gent who is making the rear sight wings. He will be making a new batch this Saturday. I made a small modification to better fit the existing Second and Third Gen rear sight, to allow the windage adjustment screw to have more and better access. Yes, as I stated on the first post of this thread, I do not wish to do this, but it needed to be done. I truly am not worried, since there still will be enough "meat" on the wing's rear edge for strength and durability...

Launch date is getting closer. The chamber plugs are perfected and ready for production. We are still working on the back end cap plug for the suppressor. A 1:1 model of the faux suppressor will soon be made up and sent to the ATF for approval...

Exciting times indeed, folks...
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Old 01-17-2016, 10:41 PM
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Folks,

Spoke on the phone the first time with BMCM regarding the Accessory Kit parts. His Delrin chamber plugs are ready for production. We spoke at length about the muzzle plugs, the barrel caps and the back end cap plugs. The muzzle plugs will be made from a sheet of a white vinyl-like product, punching them out with a gasket cutting tool. With both the barrel cap and back end cap plug, we basically came up with the idea of creating something like a bullet mold to form the external shape of both items, while there will be an internal insert to create the inner portion of the barrel cap. BMCM has some ideas he wants to try regarding the actual material itself. He is also going to create a 1:1 copy of the faux Mark 3 suppressor with the recess, to be sent to the ATF for their legal determination...

By Wednesday, I should be picking up my 39-2 slide with the silver soldered "ring" bushing. I shall also discuss with the gunsmith who to go about creating the 3-D model of the slide lock for testing and verification...

Keep the faith...
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  #32  
Old 01-18-2016, 05:03 PM
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kwill1,

Since you own an original barrel cap, are you able to post some images here, and perhaps give out some dimensions on that item? Thanks in advance...
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:06 PM
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See post #12 for a picture of what I have. Dimensions:

Muzzle cap:
1.25 diameter
0.375 Thick
0.25 diameter of depression
0.125 depth of depression

Barrel cap:
0.75 OD
0.5 ID
1.00 long
The material is 0.375 thick so the depth is 0.625.
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:34 PM
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kwill1,

I got my mind wrapped around the muzzle cap disk. Guess the Navy felt a much thicker disk would be better at keeping water out of the suppressor...

With the barrel cap, I am confused, which is not too difficult for me. Does the interior of the barrel cap have "padding" to more or less cushion the threaded barrel in case it was dropped muzzle down? What is the actual material thickness? I guess it is 0.125" thick, but what IS the actual material? It looks to be like a rubberized thing from the images, but perhaps not a vinyl substance.

We will get things troubleshot yet...
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:47 PM
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The barrel cap seems to be fairly ordinary rubber. There is no padding beyond the material itself. Note the muzzle cap has an annular ring so it can be press fit into the tube. Reading the original patent may help. If you don't have it I can send a PDF.
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:52 PM
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Kevin,

Regarding the muzzle cap....

Any guess as to what the material is? Based solely on some of the pictures I've seen I'm thinking silicone rubber.

ETA: Can you post a picture of the muzzle cap edge on showing the annular groove?

Cheers
Bill
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Old 01-18-2016, 06:18 PM
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Kind of quick and dirty but:

I don't think the muzzle cap is silicone; just plain black rubber but ??
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Old 01-18-2016, 06:30 PM
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Not the barrel cap...the can muzzle cap, any guess as to what compound that is? Kinda looks like silicone that has yellowed with age to me.

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Old 01-18-2016, 06:42 PM
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Polyurethane, according to the patent. I think that's the original color.
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Old 01-18-2016, 06:58 PM
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Ahh good, urethane is even better. Two component pourable compound can be had easily. Looks like I need to explore crafting another mold of some sort.

Does the patent describe the firmness of the material or Shore rating ie. shore 60A is comparable to car tire tread.

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Old 01-19-2016, 12:33 AM
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kwill1,

Please email me any PDF copies of patents for the "Hush Puppy" that you might have. I have a few, but would welcome more...

And I figured out what was confusing me with your post with dimensions for the barrel cap: you wrote 0.375" material thickness when you meant 0.125". I got it now...

Last edited by dvelleux; 01-19-2016 at 12:40 AM. Reason: Added paragraph...
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Old 01-19-2016, 10:32 AM
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BMCM,

I think the back end cap plug is made of the same material as the barrel cap. Just need to make the mold for it so the end that gets inserted into the back of the Mark 3 suppressor forms a friction fit to strongly engage the threads there, thus the need to embed the end of the attached lanyard well within the body of back end cap plug for durability...
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  #43  
Old 01-19-2016, 07:11 PM
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Folks,

Good news and not so good news tonight...

First, I went to my gunsmith to pick up the 39-2 slide with the silver soldered bushing "ring." He had cut the ring down to be 0.25" thick, as based on the image seen below.The inner portion looked good, but the outer was rough, as he did not know how I wanted it finished, which is fine for now...

The not so good news was when we tried to insert my 5" barrel into the bushing, the barrel hung up on the inside rear edge of the "ring" and also contacted the back most portion of the "webbing" at the front of the slide. He is going to thread the first 0.5" of the barrel to 1/2"-28, to see if the removal of material will provide enough clearance, but if not, he will Dremel the contact points until the barrel does fit...

Also, I spoke with him regarding the slide lock. He stated a casting will be the best, less costly option and I concurred. We did agree a 3-D model needed to be made to iron out any bugs before trying to make the first slide lock. Additionally, I left a spare sear release lever with him, so he could remove the short bottom leg, to duplicate how the "Hush Puppy" safety would only protect and affect the firing pin, while the hammer could remain cocked and locked for a fast shot if needed...

That is all I have for now, but hopefully, there will be more news by week's end...
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Last edited by dvelleux; 01-19-2016 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Added info...
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  #44  
Old 01-20-2016, 01:28 PM
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Folks,

Based on yesterday afternoon's chats about the slide lock, I have made a few slight changes to how each half of the slide lock will mate to matching parts. Additionally, for the first time, the slide lock halves will now be able to operate in sync with each other, meaning the halves will move the exact same way at the exact same time...

For the right half of the lock, I included a shoulder on the pivot pin, so the right side lock will have more bearing surface to be welded to the right end of the pivot pin. For the left side, a "D-hole" was designed to mate with a flat milled on the front face of the threaded shaft for the #8 nylon lock nut. With this simple change, the two halves will "sync" up with each other, thus allowing for a precise and strong lock-up to restrain the slide during firing...

Now with this news, I would like to kindly ask if someone who has access to a CAD program for generating the .STL files used by 3-D printers would be willing to step up to take the AutoCAD files I created of the lock, clean them up if need be, then render those AutoCAD files as the .STL files needed to create a 3-D plastic prototype of the slide lock. This act would be greatly appreciated...

I have posted the PDF file of the slide lock drawing, and a "compressed" file containing the two AutoCAD files for the "lucky" volunteer. I do sincerely hope someone will take pity, er, um, pick up the ball and run with it. This is the very last part that needs to created...

Keep the faith...
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  #45  
Old 01-20-2016, 05:42 PM
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Folks,

About thirty minutes ago, I got some GREAT news. A young lady who works at the same shop the gunsmith does had told me she might be able to create the 3-D prototype. All she needed was the original files to work with. She also said she had to ask her boss about computer time. Well, she emailed back her boss said, for a double sawbuck, the prototype could be drawn on the computer and the prototype made!!!

One small step for a man, one incremental leap for all S&W fans...
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:54 AM
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Folks,

May have a slight setback with the 3-D prototype. Anyone wiolling to try creatign the .STL files?
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:38 PM
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Folks,

Chatted with the gent who is making the rear sight wings. He finally had time to water-jet and bend hopefully what will be the final design of the wings. He said it will be mailed come Monday, so by perhaps Wednesday, I will be able to report back in a very positive way...

Things are indeed slowly coming together...
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:57 AM
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Folks,

had an online chat with Rennie Raines, who will be the go to guy for the grips and the holster, and a gent named Dan. Dan took the CAD files for the slide lock and produced the first images of the left half of the lock. Things look GREAT so far...

VERY soon indeed...
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Old 01-25-2016, 09:48 PM
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Folks,

The slide lock is ready for prototyping...
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Old 01-27-2016, 09:22 PM
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Folks,

BEHOLD!!! The rear sight wing design is now finalized and ready for production!!!

Justin Meyerholtz did a SUPERB job on tweaking the design for the final time. The windage adjustment screw is now fully accessible and there is still enough "meat" left on the metal for strength...

I am pleased as punch right now...

VERY soon, folks...
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