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  #51  
Old 02-09-2016, 09:15 PM
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Not only is this a great educational thread - the photos are top shelf as well.
Thank you.
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Old 02-12-2016, 06:21 PM
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I'v been away from the forum for a long time, 2 1/2 years I think, no reason in particular. No joke this thread brought me back, it is just such a good read. Thanks for starting it and the project.
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Old 02-14-2016, 12:12 AM
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Default Barrel work

Evenin' Gents,

Today I set aside time to do all the barrels work.

Started off with tending to these scurvy lookin' crowns. Kinda rough with lots of tool marks and some raised burrs.


Time to break out the barrel facing & crowning tools.


Outa that pile of stuff we'll use these three... An 11 crowning cutter, a mandrel to drive it with a hand drill, and a 10mm pilot.


I use a Hilti SFH-144a drill. It's got a three speed gearbox so when I set it in first gear it's variable speed from 0-380 rpm with lots of torque and very precise speed control. Works very nicely for turning cutting tools like this.

So we assemble the cutting tool.


And chuck it in the drill. The barrel needs to be completely clean inside which I've already done here. Then apply a liberal spash of Brownells "Do Drill" cutting fluid.


Light pressure and turning the tool for about 30 seconds is all it takes usually to clean things up. I only use about 1/4 to 1/3 of the available speed so 80 - 100 rpm or so. Let the tool do the work. The 4013 barrel I had to cut twice though because the original crown was very slightly out of square as in not cut exactly perpendicular to the bore axis. Anyway they both came out quite nice. And razor sharp... you do not want to press a finger against the crown and twist... No No


Figured I would hit the feed ramps with a extra fine Cratex point while I was messing about. Not that they needed it but I gave 'em a little shine anyway


Now we get to the chamber cutting. See that bright shiny ring down in there? That's the shoulder a rimless cartridge headspaces on. In this case we need to push that shoulder forward about 3mm or from 40S&W length to 10mm Auto length.


Tools for this operation are: A Starrett 93c tap wrench, A 10mm Auto finish reamer, A 10mm auto "GO" gauge, And a 10mm Auto "NO GO" gauge. As an aside... Anytime you're doing chamber work like this, your gauges and reamer must alway be from the same toolmaker. So, if you have Clymer reamer you want Clymer gauges too. In this case, the reamer and gauges I have here were supplied by Dave Manson Precision Reamers.


Got a barrel secured in the vise and by sticking the "GO" gauge in there you can see pretty clearly how far we need to go.


If I had a larger capacity lathe I could do this on the machine and be able to precisely advance the tool to the correct depth. Ah well, maybe someday, As it is I'll do this by hand. I took that same "GO" gauge and put a mark on the reamer so I know when I'm getting close.


Oil up everything with plenty of "Do Drill" and introduce the tool.
Turn slow and evenly with moderate hand pressure until close to the reference mark. Very Important!... Never turn the reamer backwards, to do so will instantly dull the tool. Turn clockwise only.


Once I get down close to the reference mark, withdraw the reamer and clean off the chips.


Also clean out the barrel. I'm using a 45 caliber bore mop to shove a patch through (intentionally very tight) from the muzzle. I push all the junk out then unscrew the mop and withdraw the rod so as to not drag and crud back into the work area,


Once everything is clean, check it with the "GO" gauge.
Still have a little ways to go here, say 0.040" or so. At this point, when I resume cutting I will only turn the tool maybe six or eight times then withdraw the tool clean and gauge check. Gotta be patient and go slow here to get it right. Keep in mind any metal removed here can never be put back. Take it from a man who once ruined an irreplaceable NOS BM59 barrel by cutting a chamber too deep.


Cut and clean a few more times and we're a lot closer but not there yet.


Again cut & clean several more time and I think we've got it


Checking with the "NO GO" gauge and she don't go


Checking with the "GO" gauge and she drops right in.


That series of photos was the second one I did, the 4013 tube I did first so that's all for today, we're done. If I feel industrious tomorrow I'll get on the magazine modifications.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-14-2016, 02:09 AM
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Awesome tutorial/pictorial !! Thanks again for sharing with us.

Just curious, what's the dimensional difference (length?) between the "GO" gage & the "NO GO" gage?

.
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Old 02-14-2016, 05:50 AM
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When I ream a chamber, I like to save the chips.

In case I change my mind....

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Old 02-14-2016, 09:23 AM
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Oooh! ooooh oooh! cant wait to see it assembled and a range report
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Awesome tutorial/pictorial !! Thanks again for sharing with us.

Just curious, what's the dimensional difference (length?) between the "GO" gage & the "NO GO" gage?
The gauges are right in line with the SAAMI Min/Max case dimensions so...
"GO" is 0.992
"NO GO" is 1.004"

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-15-2016, 01:00 AM
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Default Checking decocker timing

I blew off doing the magazines today. I decided to be lazy instead

I did however do a little fiddling this evening.
I installed a set of plain Novaks and finished assembling the 4014 slide.

I figured before i get much further along here I best check the decocker timing. This is especially important because the spring loaded decocker I installed in the slide is new to this gun and I do not know the state of the sear release lever in the frame.

So lets get to it shall we

Here's the new to me "1014" and above it are the three pin gauges I'll use to evaluate the timing.


Those pin gauges are 0.025", 0.045" and 0.078"


Now you don't need fancy pin gauges to check this, I just happen to have a bunch. Drill bits work perfectly, you just use the shank end as a pin gauge NOT the cutting end. Drill blanks are even better. Either way, you need one each in twenty five, forty five and seventy eight thousandths diameter.

You might think whats all the fuss? As long as the hammer drops it's OK right? Well, not necessarily. You see there are some other events going on out of sight that need to happen before the hammer falls.

Here, if we erase the slide leaving the decocker & firing pin alone. With the decocker in the up or fire position you can see the firing pin is free to travel forward.


Now lower the decocker and you can see there is a dovetail cut that captures the firing pin preventing forward movement.


And viewing from aft you can see the firing pin is now shielded from hammer strikes.


We need to insure those two events occur before the hammer is released so....
What were gonna do is stick a pin gauge in the shallow recess below the decocker right where I'm pointing with the punch then with the hammer cocked, attempt the decock the pistol.


I'll start with the twenty five thousandths pin. We should see the hammer fall here. If it does NOT drop, that tells me the sear release lever is flat worn out and must be replaced.
Hammer fell here so far so good.


Next I'll check with the forty five thousandths pin. hammer should fall here too. If it does not, a new sear release lever needs to be fitted. Our hammer decocked properly with this gauge too so we're still good.


Lastly I'll check it with the seventy eight thousandths pin. Here the hammer should NOT drop. In this case the hammer remained cocked so all is well.


If the hammer did fall, that tells me the sear release lever is too long and needs to be filed.

I would have to pull the sear release lever and carefully file this edge I'm pointing at.

I would file a minute amount at a time bit then re-install & check, repeating this just until the hammer remains cocked on the 0.078" pin.

Anyway the "1014' passed the checks. All that remains is the magazine mods and we can go for a spin.

I also repeated all the checks with the completed "1013" upper on this frame since I would like to test it before it gets shipped off to its new home. It also passed the checks. But will need to be checked again on it's new frame when it gets home.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:49 AM
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I love to watch a master at work.
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Old 02-15-2016, 11:58 AM
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BMCM, I must say, your attention to the details and sharing the info has been fantastic. Long may the 3rd gen guns live in infamy!

The 10xx series has been my absolute favorite, I had the 10mm passion since its inception and jumped into the game with my first when I took delivery of the 1006 Mar 1990.

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Old 02-15-2016, 11:42 PM
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Default Magazine modifications

Alrighty, lets take care of the magazines eh?

There are a number of things that need adjusting so these may accommodate 10mm Auto fodder.


That spacer running along the spine needs to go.


Need to do something about these indents (four per side) that are securing that spacer.


This indent right below the feed lips is likely to cause problems too.


I think I'll get that spacer out of there first. Strip the magazine down then rest the base on my bench with the spine overhanging the edge a bit. Then with a punch & hammer, give it a few whacks.


Until the spacer is sticking out enough to grab with some pliers.


And yank it right out of there.


Now lets see about those indents up at the feed lips. As you can see they won't allow a 10mm follower to rise all the way up. I'm a little reluctant to go grinding in there with a power tool so lets go look in the tooling & materials drawer and see if we can come up with something else.


Hey! how about this piece of hex bar, this might work.


If I shove if in there this way...


Then cram it past the indents...


Then squash the thing in the vise...


Huh!, it worked Still have a problem though. While the follower slides freely over the full length, we can't load more then two rounds because those indents along the spine are in the way.
Off to the milling machine.


Here's a pair of 1/8" end mills. If you look close, the one on the left has an included radius where the one on the right does not. I'll use the tool on the left since I want the avoid having any sharp 90 inside angles where a crack might develop and propagate. Much less likely to have any problems if the bottom of these cuts have a small radius.


There's our little carbide tool with the radius in the collet getting ready to make the first cut. I'm going to cut 0.050" below the sides and feeding in 0.140" past touch off.


Two cuts done, fourteen to go. Just aligning by hand with the old Mk2 Mod1 Eyeball


This one is done. Just need to clean up and do a little deburring in those cuts, reassemble and we are done.


Closeup shot here you can clearly see the included radius left by that end mill. Looks like I still have a little deburring left to do.


All done for now. Both mags load and feed well however, that old yellow follower tends to tilt a little as the mag nears full capacity. The orange 40 follower tilts even more. I do have some 10mm white followers inbound though so both of these will be changed up soon and that ought to address the tilting issue.


So, next I'll be taking a closer look at recoil springs. I already have an "off the shelf" spring that will work here. What I want to do that I haven't yet is measure the spring space with the action fully open to determine exactly how much spring I can stuff in there. I also need to account for the bushing which takes up a little bit of that spring space.


Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-17-2016, 09:46 AM
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Looks very good! How did you cure the magazine base plate being a little short once the mag spacer is removed?
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:52 PM
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How did you cure the magazine base plate being a little short once the mag spacer is removed?
Oh Hell! Was I supposed to cure that?

Seriously... I didn't see that as an issue really. I take the assembled magazine in a "hammer grip" and lightly rap the toe of the magazine butt plate on the bench a couple times and inertia does the rest, the butt plate catch assembly clicks right into place and solidly retains the butt plate.

I may switch to the 10mm part later if some of those 23303000 pieces happen to come my way. But as it is now, leaving the abbreviated piece in there is in no way a show stopper IMO.

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Old 02-19-2016, 05:19 AM
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Ok, why not just use the Hex Bar on the Pinpoint Indents same as
you used it on the top??
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:56 AM
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I used a 12mm long allen hex key for the feed lip indents and the indents along the back edge for the spacer were removed(internally) with a file.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Shrek View Post
Ok, why not just use the Hex Bar on the Pinpoint Indents same as
you used it on the top??
That hex bar would not reach back close enough to the spine to work on those dimples.


I also looked at this piece of rectangular section 4140 but it wasn't quite wide enough.

Even if it did fit snugly I'm afraid I would be exerting much too much force on that weld running along the spine. I was concerned about cracks developing or outright parting that weld seem if I tried something on these 8 dimples like what worked up by the feed lips. In the end I decided milling would do the job and give me the most consistent results.

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Old 02-19-2016, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman10mm View Post
the indents along the back edge for the spacer were removed(internally) with a file.
I considered that method but didn't feel I could achieve a clean consistent result that way plus I didn't want to roughen up the smooth media tumbled finish or leave any rough surface that may drag on the follower. It could be argued that my machining fix left more holes for junk to foul the magazine. Well, I suppose that's true but with eight witness holes and a magazine catch slot on each side already there, I didn't think it would make a significant difference.

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Old 02-19-2016, 10:29 PM
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Default More magazine tuning

Had to do a little more adjusting today.

My Postman delivered four white 10mm followers in this afternoon and yup as I suspected would be the case I'll need to give then a bit of a trim.

No way will I see the breech lock open on a empty mag with this. The follower is too fat at the top to fit between the feed lips.


I had a feeling this would be the case from my fiddling with the orange 40 and yellow 10mm followers. You can see here the orange 40 has a milled relief cut up at the top to fit the 40 mags.


That old yellow 10mm follower I have lacked that relief cut and would not lock open on an empty... That is, until I adjusted it some adding that relief cut you see here.


So, I figured if I give those white followers a haircut like I did with the yellow one, all would be well


Off to the milling machine. Same end mill in there I used the other day to cut on the magazines and you can see the area that needs trimming.


I shaved off 0.014" off each side from the top down about .180"


Milling is all done.


One more thing... Judging by eye, filed a 30 bevel about 0.040 high on each side too.


Two mags all set to go and two spare followers.


Range day tomorrow. I have 100 rounds of greenbox remington to burn up. Initial test drive of the "1014' as well as the "1013" top end which is going to my friend in Florida. I have a couple different recoil springs to evaluate but I'm pretty sure at this point which spring I'll wind up going with in the end.

Then I need to spend some time getting some dope on my 6.5 Grendel with the brand new glass

So, next update tomorrow evening.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:55 PM
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Default 10mm Conversion Lab - C'mon in Y'all

Be sure to inform us all on the recoil spring evaluation. Did the compact flat wire work well or, weight, trimming, etc.... 10mm Conversion Lab -  C'mon in Y'all
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:25 PM
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Default Range report #1

Sorry for not posting last night. Long day yesterday & I was just flat worn out.

I hit the range yesterday to make sure everything was working as it should and to wring out recoil spring choices. I brought two different springs with me to test, both flatwire. First a Wilson Sentinal 22# numbering 22 coils, open on one end and the other a ISMI 30 coil 22# spring closed on each end.


With the slide fully to the rear hard against the frames impact abutment there is 0.9245" space for a spring to occupy. Both springs are fabricated of 0.026" flatwire so with a little calcuating we find the Wilson spring will bind at 0.572" and the 30 coil ISMI will bind at 0.780". Both of them will fit the gun and work, at least on paper. In practice, flatwire springs behave somewhat like a stack of wavy washers and are very hard to compress completely solid. So in reality the flatwire will coil bind taller than the paper calculations indicate.

Here's the 22 coil Wilson spring installed. Goes right in easily.


And the 30 coil ISMI which is a good deal more difficult to stuff in there.


Having spent plenty of time fiddling with both of these springs at the bench and currently using the 30 coil ISMI spring in several of my compact .45s, I concluded the the Wilson spring would be too light for 10mm and as I alluded to in my last post had pretty much decided the 30 coil spring would be the best choice for this application.

Took station at the 10 yard line since it's all cement up there making it easier to find my brass. Even so I still lost one


No complaints with accuracy. I was getting buffeted by quartering wind from 7-8 o'clock gusting to 20 so I was pretty pleased with this.


I probably tossed more bullets into the berm than at the paper as I spent more time evaluating springs and ejection patterns than accuracy. I'd shoot left hand unsupported point shoulder and watch the ejection port then follow the case to where it lands. I didn't observe any significant difference in ejection between the two springs. Most brass landed 3-4 o'clock at about 8 feet away on average.

As it turns out I was wrong in my assumption the 30 coil spring would be best. While the gun ran perfectly with the Wilson spring, I had several malfunctions with the 30 coil spring installed. Mostly slide override FTF faults and a stovepipe or two so I must conclude the 30 coil is just too much spring for this gun.

Now the Remington greenbox stuff isn't exactly the hottest ammo around either so I have ordered up some Winchester 175 Silvertips and will prepare a couple different springs to test out next Saturday. I think I'll trim a couple springs to 24, & 26 coil and see how they behave both with the Remington 180s and the Winchester stuff.

This is my very first experience with 10mm and so far I like it... A lot! This little "1014" may very well find it's way onto my belt once I am satisfied it's fully trustworthy.

Just for the helluvit I did some fiddling with my digital scale weighing this against my frequent carry guns. I weighed each with a full load of ammo & one mag. So, 8/9 x 230gr for the 45s and 9x180gr for the 10mm.

4566TSWSSV Frankengun 44.5oz
4516 41.9oz
Shorty45 mk2 33.3oz
'1014" 34.0oz

Hmm, verwy interwestingk

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-21-2016, 08:56 PM
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Somthin to rival the .45? 10mm is one of my top three favorite flavors
45acp, 10mm, .44 Mag
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:21 PM
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This project is nothing short of amazing. I'll never cease to be impressed by a machinist taking a hunk of metal and making something out of it. Great work.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:57 PM
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Have you thought about trying a 20lb ISMI 30 coil? I believe that is what I'm running in my 1066
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:47 AM
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Have you thought about trying a 20lb ISMI 30 coil? I believe that is what I'm running in my 1066
I've thought about it but am not sure I want to go lighter.
I feel the weight range is right it's just that 30 coils of spring is simply too much for the limited room in this short gun. Your 1066 with a 31 coil GLC20 spring has a lot more room for that spring to work in and a good deal more slide+barrel mass over my '1014" so it'll work with a lighter spring and has ample room for that spring to function in. I just don't have the room for 30 coils. Even though I can stuff it in there, it's just too much. So far I feel the weight rating is good judging by how well the Wilson spring performed. We'll see next Saturday when the experiment continues with some hotter loads. That is assuming my order is delivered in time and the weather cooperates

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Old 02-22-2016, 12:54 AM
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I was thinking more like chop a coil off the 30 and see how it acts
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:03 AM
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I was thinking more like chop a coil off the 30 and see how it acts
I'm on the same page. Already have the 22 coil with the Wilson so I'm going to make a 24, 26 & 28 coil for the next outing and see how things go

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Old 02-22-2016, 02:06 AM
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As it turns out I was wrong in my assumption the 30 coil spring ...I had several malfunctions with the 30 coil spring installed. Mostly slide override FTF faults and a stovepipe or two so I must conclude the 30 coil is just too much spring for this gun.

...And the 30 coil ISMI which is a good deal more difficult to stuff in there.
.
Glad to see you had a good day at the range with the new gun.

I'm running that same ISMI 22# spring in my 4013 (after you posted about using them almost two years ago now) & it's performed perfectly with my full power .40S&W handloads.

I've had a few guns that I had to cut a turn or two off, so they wouldn't bind, but I checked my notes, & the original spring package, and it doesn't appear as I shorted this one.

I sometime use a lighter mainspring but the 4013 has a 20# Wolff in it so I'm surprised your 1014 didn't like the 22#.

As has been noted before, the ISMI springs aren't as hard to get back in the gun in subsequent assemblies as it is the very first time, which is tuff.

Awesome thread!

.

PS: I disassembled my 4013 & verified the ISMI has not been cut off at either end.

.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:17 AM
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I'm using 22lb flat springs in my Delta and 1006, anything stiffer and I start having issues with crushed and damaged brass I believe my gen2 G20 is running 22# also. I shoot fairly warm 10mm handloads, I'm having no issues with the 22lb ISMI either with brass or pistols.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:21 PM
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BMCM / Bill
Well you guys are having a really different experience than me. In my 4013 I was running a 23# outer and a stock 4013 inner (nested set up) and the shells were landing 10 to 12 feet around 3 o'clock or so with Remington green and white like Bill was using. The thing is extremely hard to rack and I'm not a wussy so forget that part. I'm going to try the Wilson 22# and see what happens and will post my experience. There's must be some weird dynamics going on here with my pistol.
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:34 PM
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BMCM / Bill
Well you guys are having a really different experience than me. In my 4013 I was running a 23# outer and a stock 4013 inner (nested set up) and the shells were landing 10 to 12 feet around 3 o'clock or so with Remington green and white like Bill was using. The thing is extremely hard to rack and I'm not a wussy so forget that part. I'm going to try the Wilson 22# and see what happens and will post my experience. There's must be some weird dynamics going on here with my pistol.
Take Care All,
T & B
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Old 02-25-2016, 03:11 AM
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Bill, I was just recalling that on another one of your projects you added the loaded chamber inspection hole, in the hood, that the latter models had. Any reason you didn't do it on this one? Just curious.

.
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Old 02-25-2016, 03:20 PM
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Bill, I was just recalling that on another one of your projects you added the loaded chamber inspection hole, in the hood, that the latter models had. Any reason you didn't do it on this one? Just curious.
It comes down to wide hood vs. narrow hood. This barrel is of the narrow hood variety. I don't have any issue cutting a window in a wide hood however, to cut a chamber loaded port in a narrow hood would take away a third or more of the bearing surface where the hood or tab contacts the breechface. I think it best to leave the narrow hoods be.

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Old 02-26-2016, 07:56 AM
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A little late with this comment, but I think your solution of milling out the indents along the spine instead of trying to flatten them from inside was a masterful stroke. As was your choice of the radiused end mill instead of the 90-degree.

Those are examples of the way a true machinist thinks. You make it look easy. Kudos!
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Old 02-26-2016, 05:40 PM
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BMCM and those interested! You know who you are!
First, let it be understood that I'm not trying to take over this thread I just am throwing out my experiences. I want to see the outcome of Bill's project as much as anyone as I have a "1013" but mine is giving me fits.

OK I tried the Wilson 22# spring. Installs nice and is easy to rack. You know Wyoming is a big state but this thing, with the 22# spring, throws shells into Montana and I hate crossing the line just for shells! Really they land about 18'+ away at 4:00. The ammo was PPU 180 gr. JHP. Probably a lot like the Remington green and white. I didn't even try the Winchester 175 Silver tips, probably end up in Washington state!

Now with the 23# nested spring every thing lands about 12'(+-) away and that is with PPU 180's and Winchester Silver Tips 175, and the with the Sig 180 gr. FMJ which felt a little hotter than everything else.

Oh, on SOME of the brass there is a slight dent or scrap on the case face that appears to be from the extractor as the slide closes over the shell. Maybe that nested set up is just to powerful!?

I do have some 30 coil 22# springs coming so I can mimic whatever Bill ends up with. Yes I like the flat wire springs but I haven't found the right one yet!
Thanks for listening, Take Care
T & B

For those who haven't seen Bill's thread on "Melting Down" a 4516, do yourself a favor and check it out! This guy's not just a machinist, he's an "artiste" with a lathe, mill, and hand tools!
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Old 02-26-2016, 06:55 PM
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I have a "1013" but mine is giving me fits.

OK I tried the Wilson 22# spring. Installs nice and is easy to rack. You know Wyoming is a big state but this thing, with the 22# spring, throws shells into Montana and I hate crossing the line just for shells! Really they land about 18'+ away at 4:00. The ammo was PPU 180 gr. JHP. Probably a lot like the Remington green and white.
Just a thought... Make sure you have a factory full power (20#) mainspring in the gun. There are some reduced power mainsprings that fit these plus some of the DAO variants came with a 17# spring which could have found it's way into your pistol. Also, It's not unheard of for folks to install a reduced power mainspring to lighten the DA trigger (kind of a poor man's action job).

Control of initial slide velocity is shared between the mainspring & the recoil spring so if your mainspring isn't "up to snuff" you'll wind up with violent ejection among other problems. That's probably where I'd look first.

Ahh Wait! I just though of something. The ejector in these old single stack 40s including the CS40 variants is part number 234340000. However, all the 10mm guns use part number 230190000 which is a tad shorter and is common to all the 45xx & 10xx models.

Here's a comparison shot. 4013 et al. on top, 10xx & 45xx bottom.


I'm pretty pleased with how my "1014" works but, I still think there is room for improvement in the ejection so.....

Presto Change O. Out with the 234340000 and in goes the 230190000.


I'll not change anything else until I have noted any difference in ejection pattern with the Remington green & Wilson 22# combo.

Anyway, along with the new ejector, I have cut & dressed three more springs for testing with some warmer loads. In addition to the Wilson spring I have ISMI 22# springs trimmed to 24, 26 & 28 coil and 200 rounds of Winchester 175s plus another 50 of the Remington 180s.

Range day tomorrow

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-26-2016, 11:50 PM
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Bill
Hey thanks for the heads up on the main spring, I'll get a new one if they're out there. I have a 1006 so I'll do a quick swap with the ejector and see if that helps. In the meantime I have several 30 coil 22# springs coming so I can do whatever you find when you test yours.
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Old 02-27-2016, 01:14 AM
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Turn & Bank, I was going to suggest you go to an extra power mainspring, to add a little more resistance to the slide recoiling, but I forgot that Wolff doesn't make one for the 4013's (Group "B"-Short), only the Group "A"-Long.

I recently bought a nice 4586 that I'm going to be shooting 45 Super from & in addition to the extra power recoil spring I'm going to use an extra power mainspring. I've done this on my 1911 too.

As far as casings going into sub-orbit, I haven't hit on a combo that keeps full power loads close. You just have to plan on hunting them down afterwards.

.
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Old 02-27-2016, 01:56 AM
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Turn & Bank, I was going to suggest you go to an extra power mainspring, to add a little more resistance to the slide recoiling, but I forgot that Wolff doesn't make one for the 4013's .
I have a scheme in mind to tinker with mainspring weights using a 25# flatwire mainspring. I just have to make custom a plunger to fit it since it's just a bit too fat for the factory plunger. But that's for another time... At this point I'm not even sure it's needed. I'll have a better idea after tomorrow's outing.

Cheers
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Old 02-27-2016, 11:55 AM
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BLUEDOT37 & Bill
Thanks for the info guys. Can't find an extra power mainspring only the standard weight(?)and have ordered it through Numrich. Also ordered the 1006 ejector as Bill thought that might help. I don't really mind hiking for the brass I just assumed that anything going that far is not good for the pistol.

BLUEDOT37
I too bought a 4506 for using with 45 super so I'll be interested in what you end up with for that set up. A PM is fine if you want to discuss it.

Can't wait to hear what Bill finds today.
Thanks again, Take Care,
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Old 02-28-2016, 10:28 AM
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Master Chief, I and I'm sure others here who've never shot 10mm would be interested to know how you developed this interest in the cartridge. Frankly, I was surprised to read that you're considering switching to your converted 10mm pistol as your EDC from your 45ACP's. All of us here value your opinions about these matters, and if 10mm is your choice in a self-defense round, I for one feel the need to sit up and take notice.

I've been a 45ACP guy at heart, though I toyed with 40S&W at one point, but I eventually "ran home to mama" and have been dedicated to big, fat, and slow ever since. I read that the FBI Hostage Rescue and SWAT teams are still issued 10mm, and that some police agencies use it too. I guess recoil was the biggest knock on 10mm as a "one size fits all" round for LE, but I've never had a problem with 45ACP and don't think 10mm would be an issue for me.

What say you on this?
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Old 02-28-2016, 06:55 PM
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Master Chief, I and I'm sure others here who've never shot 10mm would be interested to know how you developed this interest in the cartridge. Frankly, I was surprised to read that you're considering switching to your converted 10mm pistol as your EDC from your 45ACP's. All of us here value your opinions about these matters, and if 10mm is your choice in a self-defense round, I for one feel the need to sit up and take notice.

I've been a 45ACP guy at heart, though I toyed with 40S&W at one point, but I eventually "ran home to mama" and have been dedicated to big, fat, and slow ever since. I read that the FBI Hostage Rescue and SWAT teams are still issued 10mm, and that some police agencies use it too. I guess recoil was the biggest knock on 10mm as a "one size fits all" round for LE, but I've never had a problem with 45ACP and don't think 10mm would be an issue for me.

What say you on this?
I'm going to point out a little thing that worries some folks...
HRT's using 10mm know it also does one other thing...
they can shoot thru a victim and into a terrorist pretty easily...
sometimes you have to put a non-lethal wound on a good guy,
to give a fatal wound to a bad guy...
or if the bad guy is evil enough, you'll sometimes have to
give fatal wounds to hostage AND bad guy.

Just the reality of the world since the 1972 Munich Massacre...
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Old 02-28-2016, 09:26 PM
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Big Shrek
You're right I would find that worrisome and I pray I would never be faced with that dilemma. I'll leave that to the professionals and G-d Bless them!

So Bill was saying that the ejector on the 4013 and CS40 are the same yet different than the 10XX & 45XX. Well I've got a CS 40 with the short armed ejector! Go figure. So being hesitant to change a bunch of internals (I have the correct short ejector coming) I'm going to run the 4013 / 10mm slide on the CS 40 frame and see if that helps my issue with orbiting brass. I'll let you all know what happens. I also might try the 4013 slide on my 1006 frame as it of course also has the short ejector. This is not a perfect test scenario as the main spring in both pistols is not the same as the one in the 4013 and that bugger may be the problem but trying it might get me closer to solving this mystery.
Oh, I found a site called "point shooting" that has an excellent article from the FBI on wound statics / wound studies. Check it out. It is enlightening and makes me wonder about my carry rounds.
Take Care.
T&B
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by vigil617 View Post
Master Chief, I and I'm sure others here who've never shot 10mm would be interested to know how you developed this interest in the cartridge. Frankly, I was surprised to read that you're considering switching to your converted 10mm pistol as your EDC from your 45ACP's. All of us here value your opinions about these matters, and if 10mm is your choice in a self-defense round, I for one feel the need to sit up and take notice.

I've been a 45ACP guy at heart, though I toyed with 40S&W at one point, but I eventually "ran home to mama" and have been dedicated to big, fat, and slow ever since. I read that the FBI Hostage Rescue and SWAT teams are still issued 10mm, and that some police agencies use it too. I guess recoil was the biggest knock on 10mm as a "one size fits all" round for LE, but I've never had a problem with 45ACP and don't think 10mm would be an issue for me.

What say you on this?
Not to worry, I'm not going to be "mothballing" my 45s anytime soon... In fact...Not now, Not ever!

I've seen a lot of these baby 10's on the forum and I had a bunch of parts on hand to make one, so when the opportunity presented itself to cook up a couple of these, I jumped at the chance.

I've been a bit enamored of the 10mm Auto ever since first reading about it in Jeff Cooper's commentaries many years ago.

I weighed the completed gun against my regular carry guns merely out of curiosity. Since hurting my back I've been mostly carrying the Shorty45 because it's lighter weight is less stressful on my lower back. It was interesting to see the "1014" weighs virtually the same as my Shorty. Anyway My back is slowly healing and I was able to carry my SSV all day Saturday in relative comfort.

I do like the "1014" a lot and I can see where these conversions have a lot of appeal as a CCW. Once I have full confidence in it's reliability I may include it among the guns I carry. I'll have to play with it some more to develop that level of trust. Plus I'll need to settle on a carry load and assure reliability with that too. I'm kinda leaning towards the 165gr Golddot Underwood loading. This in no way means it will supplant any of my 45s.

Now I have no empirical evidence, this is merely what I think or my opinion if you wish...Firstly, I didn't see the recoil as an issue. Perhaps I'm insensitive to recoil but I though it no worse than than a compact 45. The main downside for me is that it is very "barky". I would not want to touch one of these off in an enclosed space, say in my house or in a vehicle. Same reason I don't use a .357 snubby for CCW, too barky. I already have some degree of permanent hearing damage and would rather not need to be scraping my eardrums off the windshied

I also think 10mm Auto gives up a lot of its capability in a short barrel and is much more suited to a fullsize pistol. I've seen it argued in many forums that the 10mm Auto in a short barrel is nearly identical ballistically to the 40S&W which I have zero interest in. So in a 3.5" or thereabouts barrel, same terminal ballistics except with more flash, blast & bark with the 10mm.

No, I'll be sticking with my 45s. Low pressure and relatively quiet big fat heavy subsonic bullets and even if the fancy high speed modern hollowpoint fails, it still leaves a half inch hole.

I do see a factory adjustable sight 1006 in my future though

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:03 AM
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Default Range report #2

I got to the range about noon on Saturday. Unfortunately there was a LA CCW class occupying the short line when I arrived. Fortunately for me I brought other toys so I headed over to the long line to play with my Grendel for an hour or so until those folks had finished up.

Once I got back to the short line I set up at the 10 yard line over on the extreme right. I wanted to set up there so my brass would land in the grass and stay put and not bounce around. Last time I was shooting in the center and it was a little difficult to assess where the brass was landing when it was bouncing all over the place. I brought with me 50 rounds of the Remington green box stuff which is 180gr FMJ truncated cone bullets and 100 rounds of Winchester 175gr silvertips. I also had four springs to fiddle with; the Wilson 22# 22 coil and three ISMI 22# springs trimmed to 24, 26 & 28 coils.

Now with the correct ejector in the gun, I started out with a couple mags of the Remy loads and the Wilson spring. Ran fine but I still felt the Wilson spring was a little light. With the 28 coil ISMI spring I had a FTE fault. Between the 24 & 26 coil springs I couldn't tell any difference. The gun ran very well with either of those springs in and between them I burned up the rest of my ammo for the day, about 130 rounds.

The headshots were there before me. I'm shooting at the 100m zeroing target. Looks like I might need a taller front sight and perhaps a tad of windage adjustment here.

That target was a lot more shot up by the time I had finished.
There was a Sheriff's Deputy there too I let take it for a spin.
After sending a mag full downrange he turned 'round and with a big grin and said "Yeah, I can shoot this".

I thought the Silvertips were supposed to be hotter than the Remy stuff I had been shooting, at least that's what the reviews at Midway alluded to but I didn't notice any difference. Overall the gun was very well behaved with either the 24 or 26 coil spring installed. Recoil was certainly manageable and I had no problems recovering my sight picture quickly.

Ejection seemed hmmm, I guess tamer would be a good word.
I have the 10xx/45xx ejector in the gun now and it seems to me the brass arced higher and flew slower than it did before. I didn't really see a difference in how far though. Ejection did seem more consistent though.

Here I'm crouching about 3 paces from the corner of the slab. I was shooting right there left of my range bag the. This is where I found the bulk of my brass. If I had parked say a wheelbarrow here, probably three fourths of my casings would have landed in the tub. So no real change in how far just seemed to toss the brass higher & slower. Like T&B said in an earlier post... must be some weird dynamics going on here


Well, I think this is about a wrap. I don't see anything else that needs doing aside from tweaking the sights a bit. Just for the helluvit I'm going to try making a plunger to fit the 25# flatwire mainspring I have here and I'll see about trying that out. The recoil spring is right for the current setup. With the factory 20# mainspring installed it seems 24 or 26 coils of 22# ISMI is the sweetspot.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 02-29-2016, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
Not to worry, I'm not going to be "mothballing" my 45s anytime soon... In fact...Not now, Not ever!

I've seen a lot of these baby 10's on the forum and I had a bunch of parts on hand to make one, so when the opportunity presented itself to cook up a couple of these, I jumped at the chance.

I've been a bit enamored of the 10mm Auto ever since first reading about it in Jeff Cooper's commentaries many years ago.

I weighed the completed gun against my regular carry guns merely out of curiosity. Since hurting my back I've been mostly carrying the Shorty45 because it's lighter weight is less stressful on my lower back. It was interesting to see the "1014" weighs virtually the same as my Shorty. Anyway My back is slowly healing and I was able to carry my SSV all day Saturday in relative comfort.

I do like the "1014" a lot and I can see where these conversions have a lot of appeal as a CCW. Once I have full confidence in it's reliability I may include it among the guns I carry. I'll have to play with it some more to develop that level of trust. Plus I'll need to settle on a carry load and assure reliability with that too. I'm kinda leaning towards the 165gr Golddot Underwood loading. This in no way means it will supplant any of my 45s.

Now I have no empirical evidence, this is merely what I think or my opinion if you wish...Firstly, I didn't see the recoil as an issue. Perhaps I'm insensitive to recoil but I though it no worse than than a compact 45. The main downside for me is that it is very "barky". I would not want to touch one of these off in an enclosed space, say in my house or in a vehicle. Same reason I don't use a .357 snubby for CCW, too barky. I already have some degree of permanent hearing damage and would rather not need to be scraping my eardrums off the windshied

I also think 10mm Auto gives up a lot of its capability in a short barrel and is much more suited to a fullsize pistol. I've seen it argued in many forums that the 10mm Auto in a short barrel is nearly identical ballistically to the 40S&W which I have zero interest in. So in a 3.5" or thereabouts barrel, same terminal ballistics except with more flash, blast & bark with the 10mm.

No, I'll be sticking with my 45s. Low pressure and relatively quiet big fat heavy subsonic bullets and even if the fancy high speed modern hollowpoint fails, it still leaves a half inch hole.

I do see a factory adjustable sight 1006 in my future though

Cheers
Bill
Thanks for the comments, Bill. Very sensible and reasonable observations, and they help convince me to stick with what I have. As a civilian, I'm more than prepared with 45ACP, and since a compact is what I want to carry around, 230 grain HP ammo fits the bill perfectly. Thanks again for a great thread!
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Old 03-04-2016, 10:50 PM
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Default 1013/4013 chronograph

Got a chance to run down to my range and do a little chrono test today as this thread had got me curious. So using the stock 4013 upper loaded with .40 caliber Winchester 155 grain Silvertips, 10 rounds fired, they had a average muzzle velocity of 1011.60 fps

Now, 2 minute presto-chango to using the 10mm upper with #22 recoil spring and updated ejector:
10mm 165gr Gold dots avg 1236.50 fps these were my loads, very close to Underwood 10mm spec.
10mm SiG 180gr FMJ avg 1195.75 fps pretty close to advertised velocity in a short barrel, very consistent best (hottest) factory loads I have found to date at a pretty decent non boutique price
Very managable, pushes like a .45acp +P, no issues with brass or primers however though the poor guys in the stall next to me I think got nosebleeds from the muzzle blast they wuz sure giving me that look, kinda like I was shootin a Mosin M44 inddoors, so I guess I wuz "that guy" today big sigh, I did let them shoot it some they liked it, so no permanent enemies made. It would be nice to take it out on a night shoot to see how bad muzzle flash is.
Only shot about 50 rounds of each for the 10mm. No issues it throws brass about 6 feet to my 4 o'clock I found all of what was shot. Now that in itself was pretty amazing as I always lose a few pieces. After I got home, I disassembled & cleaned to see how it looked over all. Doesn't seem to have any issues with the Wilson #22 Spring. Not a really an extensive test but I plan on shooting the 1014 a whole lot more, didn't get too much of an idea of the accuracy as I was trying to see where the brass was going and also trying not to shoot my chronograph on a breezy day. I did get to shoot a few for accuracy and was pleased with the potential from the few mags I shot.
6Actual out
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Old 03-09-2016, 04:45 PM
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I'm curious, how's that Caswell treatment/ coating holding up since putting some rounds thru it?
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Old 03-09-2016, 06:50 PM
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DA trigger was a little gritty so I swapped out the hammer. I was going to stone the original hammer but that one is lopsided and it was bugging me so it's out. Here it is next to a later MIM hammer and you can see how cockeyed it is Things like that make my brain itch


Found another blued wrought hammer in the bin and stoned the radius smooth above the hooks. Really slicked up the DA pull.


I've been carrying the "1014" around the property the past couple days. It carries very well and I must thank 6actual for turning me on to the small flat magazine baseplates. Those really complete the package IMO. Weighs in at 33.6oz loaded with 9 x 165gr Speer Gold Dots from Underwood.


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I'm curious, how's that Caswell treatment/ coating holding up since putting some rounds thru it?
Well, not so great. The black on the decocker and ambi levers is almost completely worn off.


My little bushing and the guiderod seem to be holding up better but not by much. The bushing is still black and guiderod is now a medium grey color.


In all fairness to Caswell I must point out that I didn't follow the directions 100%. Also different alloys of stainless are to be treated differently ie. different concentrations of the solution and different times spent in the solution bath. I only know for certain the alloy the guiderod & bushing are made from being 416 stainless. I do not know what steel the levers are made from but treated all the parts at the same time in the same manner. So it's very likely the iffy results are solely my fault.

I may pull & clean these parts and try again. I'm also entertaining a roll of the dice to see if that spring wound on the decocker will survive a dip in the meloniting bath.

But not right now. I have some Karl Nill grips that need messing with.

Cheers
Bill
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Old 03-11-2016, 11:34 PM
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Default Going for the "Pinto" look

Pulled the levers today a did a little file work to soften all the edges then a quick trip to the blast cabinet. Also swapped out the slide stop for one in stainless with a full width pad. I'm going with the "Pinto" look for a while. You know, it's kinda growin' on me


I also drifted the front sight a smidge to correct the windage but havent the opportunity to check it yet and it's monsooning tomorrow so no range day I might need to put a taller front in to correct elevation but I'm gonna hold off on that until I get to try it out at longer distance. Right now I have a .216 front mounted, next taller would be .229 I think.

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Old 03-12-2016, 09:35 PM
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BMCM and those following this great thread!
I'm back with a range report. As you might remember I'm the guy with the 4013 conversion to a 1013 as Bill has done here. I have shell casings landing 10 to 12 ft. from me and thought that excessive so I've tried to shorten that distance by going with the 22# 26 coil flat wire recoil spring, shorter ejector, and a new mainspring as Bill thought it might be a 17# spring. Sorry guys but it made the problem worse! Shells are now landing 25 ft. around 3 or 4 o'clock.

So as suggested by BLUEDOT37 my next step is to try the 30 coil 22# spring, as long as it doesn't bind. I'm not hopeful and will probably go back to the 23# wire spring in the nested setup. Oh, I was using the older Remington green and white box 180's as ammo. With the setup that Bill is using I'm starting to see just a slight hammering on the frame so that is right out. On the next round I'm going to Dykem the slide and frame to see which is the worst for hammering. I hope all of you are fairing better than myself. Also considered density altitude / barometric pressure but that difference is slight and could not account for double the distance the shells are traveling! Ah what the heck it's fun monkeying with this, and the emphasis should be on "Monkeying"! Yeehaw!

Take Care,
T & B
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