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Old 02-05-2016, 07:58 PM
NH Old School NH Old School is offline
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Apparent design flaw on the SW22 Victory. Apparent design flaw on the SW22 Victory. Apparent design flaw on the SW22 Victory. Apparent design flaw on the SW22 Victory. Apparent design flaw on the SW22 Victory.  
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Default Apparent design flaw on the SW22 Victory.

I've had mine to the range exactly once, but I shot well over a hundred rounds of various ammo through it. After I got it home, but before cleaning it, I saw a video on Youtube of a guy that did a range session of testing. He found that the screw that holds the barrel and receiver to the frame (takedown screw) had backed out, causing the upper parts to fit very loosely on the frame - like rattling loose. So I checked mine, and sure enough the same thing had happened. I hadn't noticed it while shooting.

I had already had mine apart for an initial cleaning, as per the instruction manual, before taking it to the range. I had tightened the takedown screw as tight as I thought wise. Since I have to take it apart every time I clean it, I don't want to horse it down too much. I'd be likely to wear it out prematurely or flat out strip it.

I tightened it a bit tighter this time - as tight as I dare. I'll see if it starts coming apart again next time I shoot it. If it does, I'll have to resort to using blue Loctite every time I shoot it. Not good!
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:35 PM
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Not sure that could be described as a flaw. Screws by their nature are meant to screw in and screw out. Obviously there is something going on if the screw was known to be very tight when you began shooting but was loose afterwards, but using loctite on screws is not abnormal. I don't know if I have a gun without loctite on it somewhere.
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mlk18 View Post
Not sure that could be described as a flaw. Screws by their nature are meant to screw in and screw out. Obviously there is something going on if the screw was known to be very tight when you began shooting but was loose afterwards, but using loctite on screws is not abnormal. I don't know if I have a gun without loctite on it somewhere.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've never needed Loctite on any of the 200 or so guns I've owned in the last 60 years. I've used it plenty on other things. If you have to keep using it on things that you have to take apart all the time it's kind of messy, and not a good solution. I don't think a stock gun, used as directed, should come apart in normal use after less than 200 rounds. The owners manual and a S&W video illustrate the proper procedure for taking the gun apart for cleaning, and putting it back together. They do not say anything about Loctite.

I torqued it down a bit tighter this time, so we'll have to see if it's a chronic issue, and if more owners have it.
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:59 PM
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Put a star washer or nylok washer under your screw and that should fix the problem.......However if you take it down every time you shoot it the screw and female threads will accumulate wear and will be harder to tighten to the same specs over time.
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Old 02-05-2016, 11:35 PM
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I wonder what the actual Torque specs are supposed to be on this barrel. This could also be part of the problem? Not enough Torque they naturally will start to loosen up.
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Old 02-05-2016, 11:39 PM
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I would use the blue loctite as first choice, and maybe a lock washer as second choice. And, is it really necessary to remove the barrel after every shooting session? Personally, I would use an old toothbrush to clean out the chamber area and bolt face, and a bore snake to run through the barrel if needed, that's the approach that I use on my MKII Ruger semi-auto pistol.
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Old 02-06-2016, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by NH Old School View Post
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've never needed Loctite on any of the 200 or so guns I've owned in the last 60 years. I've used it plenty on other things. If you have to keep using it on things that you have to take apart all the time it's kind of messy, and not a good solution. I don't think a stock gun, used as directed, should come apart in normal use after less than 200 rounds. The owners manual and a S&W video illustrate the proper procedure for taking the gun apart for cleaning, and putting it back together. They do not say anything about Loctite.

I torqued it down a bit tighter this time, so we'll have to see if it's a chronic issue, and if more owners have it.

Pretty much every optic mount, rail system, and other gun related item with a screw recommends a loctite type product. Every screw on front sight from Glock to Beretta to CZ recommends loctite. We even add loctite to the screws on our weapon mounted lights. Loctite is not like tig welding or something and one does not need to bathe the threads in the stuff. Just a dab will do.
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Old 02-06-2016, 06:54 AM
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blue loctite wouldn't have to be used every time the screw was removed/replaced. There is usually residual dried on the threads that will still hold the screw tight.
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:29 AM
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Maybe this is why High Standard dropped the screw/thumbscrew and stayed with a spring loaded push button retention.

I wonder how much effect different torque has on accuracy. Maybe there's room for a rubber O-ring on the screw?
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
I wonder what the actual Torque specs are supposed to be on this barrel. This could also be part of the problem? Not enough Torque they naturally will start to loosen up.
That's a good question. I have torque wrenches and, hex bits to fit them. Maybe I should call S&W and ask that question.
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:28 AM
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All or any of the above suggestions would probably work. However I still don't think it's appropriate for a manufacturer to put out a product that needs additional engineering on the part of the user. If it was designed to need Loctite or lock washers, the washers should be installed at the factory (as they are on Colt Single Action Army Revolvers), and/or the instructions should specify using Loctite. We shouldn't need to be having this conversation. It should function as advertised if used according to instructions.

And by the way, before I bought the Victory, I did watch the S&W video, on cleaning it. If it had said anything about Loctite or supplying my own lock washers etc., I wouldn't have bought it, as that would have negated its major advantage to me over the Ruger that I already have.
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wproct View Post
I would use the blue loctite as first choice, and maybe a lock washer as second choice. And, is it really necessary to remove the barrel after every shooting session? Personally, I would use an old toothbrush to clean out the chamber area and bolt face, and a bore snake to run through the barrel if needed, that's the approach that I use on my MKII Ruger semi-auto pistol.
I've had a Ruger MK II bull barrel target pistol for 20 years. It still runs fine, and is very accurate. I bought the Victory specifically because of the comparative ease of taking it down for cleaning. That and a bit better ergonomics. The instructions for cleaning the Victory specify taking the receiver group off the frame, removing the bolt, and cleaning from the breech. I could do it differently, but I don't want to. And, yes, I do clean it every time I shoot it, same as every other firearm I've ever owned. I should be able to follow the manufacturer's instructions and expect the gun to work without falling apart. The fact that there are fixes to work around the problem does not alter that simple fact.
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Old 02-06-2016, 12:50 PM
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Browning uses the same system on the Buckmark pistol.
There's a jillion of them in service, including my four.
Never heard of any "design flaw" on them.
Tighten it up and go shooting.
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Old 02-06-2016, 12:58 PM
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Remington never heard of a design flaw on their 700 action safety either. Just keep the rifle pointed in a safe direction...
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Old 02-06-2016, 01:18 PM
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I can't comment on the takedown screw coming loose during shooting since my Victory extractor left the range on my first shot. However, I will comment on how hard the takedown screw was torqued from the factory. I could not break it loose with the allen wrench included, nor with a hex bit in my Brownells kit. I finally took the original allen wrench and added a much longer, stronger handle to it to break it loose. In retrospect, that is probably a clue from the factory about loosening during use.

I have no problem using locktite when needed. Most of my S&W revolvers loosen screw(s) during use.
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Old 02-06-2016, 03:29 PM
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I haven't seen anyone mention purple loctite. Purple is their "low strength" and is designed for screws that are intended to be routinely loosened. I use it on all my scope mounting screws as there is no worry about messing up screw heads from excessive torque when removing.
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Old 02-06-2016, 04:26 PM
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My Victory also comes loose rather quickly. Not much different from my Buckmark UDX that does the same thing.

I used blue loctite on the Buckmark and have been shooting it for almost a year with only cleaning with a pull through, q-tips, and brass brush.

I will do the same thing with the Victory, and use much the same items to clean it.

I like both the Buckmark and the Victory, so I am okay with loctite on the take down screw.
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Old 02-06-2016, 05:05 PM
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The gentleman is correct to mention purple Loctite. Screws below 1/4 in in diameter should use purple or equivalent. I think many get by with blue by not using it correctly in the first place. A clean small screw and thread treated with blue can be a bear to remove.

There is a tolerance on screws and threads, so you can run across installations which resist backing out or not under vibration. Loctite is the proper way to prevent problems with screwed connections. Lock washers remove metal whenever disassembled and are not as desireable.

If S&W has a design problem, then so does any screwed assembly in industry. A customers lack of knowledge of screwed assemblies is not their problem.

Torque is to maintain proper clamping pressure, not to prevent loosening of a joint. Proper torque prevents damage to a screwed assembly.
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Old 02-07-2016, 10:51 AM
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A fastener can not hold unless it is stretched. It's like a clamp. Loctite, lock washers and star washers treat the symptom but will never cure the disease. Find the socket head cap screw size on a torque chart and torque it to that value. Torque is not as good as stretch but you can't measure stretch on a blind fastener.
And don't even think about using a stainless steel screw. It will seize fast without a lubricant.

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-i...ed-Torque.aspx
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:35 PM
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In rereading my post above, I apologize if I came across harsh, as I do not mean to do that. I hung around engineering and machine design for some time, so fasteners were just a tool to me.

Everyone has areas of expertise and it would not be reasonable to expect anyone not familiar with a process to understand it.

The web is full of complaints regarding designs made by those who just do not understand the process. Hopefully these comments will serve to educate. Go to any thread on Buckmarks and you will see condemnation of threaded joints by folks who just do not understand the principles.

Always armed, I would like to have the hours back we spent fighting galled stainless steel fasteners over the years
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:57 PM
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Always armed, I would like to have the hours back we spent fighting galled stainless steel fasteners over the years
Oh yes. I found Nitro drill bits best. I would also keep broken pin punches and sharpen the edge of the pin like a chisel. Sometimes it will bite in and the edge of the cap screw will break loose when pecked with a hammer. Not usually though.
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Old 02-08-2016, 05:57 PM
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NH Old School if you find out what the actual torque specs are would you please let us all know as it may help someone else from having a similar problem. I would hate to hear of a barrel coming off during someone's range shoot and being hurt in any way from it happening.
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Old 02-18-2016, 04:59 PM
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Mine has not come loose the last two times to the range. 160 and 170 round sessions. I carry an allen wrench now in the bag so it no longer matters. As a matter of fact once I began carrying the allen wrench there has not been a problem. Hmmm?
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlk18 View Post
Pretty much every optic mount, rail system, and other gun related item with a screw recommends a loctite type product. Every screw on front sight from Glock to Beretta to CZ recommends loctite. We even add loctite to the screws on our weapon mounted lights. Loctite is not like tig welding or something and one does not need to bathe the threads in the stuff. Just a dab will do.
The problems usually arise when people use too much or the wrong type. I've actually seen people recommend red for use on #2 & #4 screws.
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:49 AM
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Well if people still want to do fasteners like they were done in the past, they can. Just use lock washers which hold by digging into the fastener and tapped hole surface to maintain a mechanical bond. The problem arises when the fastener is removed and reinstalled enough times to mess up the surfaces.

The modern way is with thread locking compound which holds well but can be removed with solvents upon disassembly and does not do damage to metal surfaces.

Red Loctite on small screws is way past ridiculous and not designed for that service. Someone did not bother to read the label on the package
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Old 03-09-2016, 12:32 PM
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Hi all, I purchased my victory about two weeks ago. I've been to the range twice and both times the retaining screw did come loose. I opened a trouble ticket with SW customer service on monday asking for the torque spec. Here is the reply I received this morning. "Hand tightening should be enough. We do not have a specific spec on that."
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Old 03-09-2016, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
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blue loctite wouldn't have to be used every time the screw was removed/replaced. There is usually residual dried on the threads that will still hold the screw tight.
What ever happened to using Monofilament fishing line? Short piece in the hole, install screw, tighten! Small screws=thin line!
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:42 PM
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I have 100 rounds through my new Victory. Field stripped it first and tighten the screw with the Allen wrench provided using the long end for leverage and really tighten it hard. Hasn't came loose yet.
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Old 03-09-2016, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
NH Old School if you find out what the actual torque specs are would you please let us all know as it may help someone else from having a similar problem. I would hate to hear of a barrel coming off during someone's range shoot and being hurt in any way from it happening.
I read on another thread that it was 20 ft lbs.
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Old 03-09-2016, 07:41 PM
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If I know that I will be removing a fastener, I use Vibra-Tite VC-3 Threadmate instead on anaerobic threadlockers like LocTite or GunTite. VC-3 (et al.) is applied to the threads of a screw and allowed to dry 30 minutes before assembling. It works by friction and not by bonding. It's reusable up to 5 times after which it can be removed with a brush and solvent and reapplied.
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:49 PM
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The take down screw appears to be a #12-24 Low Head Socket Cap Screw. Its shaft is 0.210" which is a #12 screw thread. All black cap screws are commonly Grade 8 fasteners or stronger. I can't find the torque specs for this fastener but here is a torque chart for a #10 and a 1/4 inch which are the next bigger and smaller fasteners to a #12...

Click on the DOWNLOADS pdf hyperlink.
Low Head Socket Cap Screws | Coburn-Myers

...Since the 1/4 screw torques to 77.9 in./lbs. and the #10 screw torques to 33.5 in./lbs., let's "assume" that the #12 cap screw torques between the two. I get around 56 in./lbs. by my calculations.
I have been torquing my take down screw to 40 in./lbs. and it never came loose. I just took my take down screw back out to help out here but it seemed to break away easier than usual. Since it has not been shot since I cleaned and reassembled the pistol, I've decided to increase the torque to 50 in./lbs.
Hope that helps.

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Old 03-11-2016, 11:40 PM
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I like the fishing line idea. Has anyone tried a little teflon tape? I remember reading somewhere that it for lack of a better term fills the treads and will help keeps the treads tight some. I've used the purple loc-tite on optics on a Ruger MKIII and not had great luck, went to blue and no more problems.

My Victory should be here in a few days, so I'm glad this kind of info is out there to help us new owners.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:44 AM
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I haven't resorted to going up to the garage to get a torque wrench and hex bit to put my gun back together.

I did try blue Loctite. It didn't work. The screw is such a precise fit into the hole that the Loctite was pushed out onto the mating surfaces of the receiver and frame, where I found it the next time I cleaned the gun. The internal and external threads had no Loctite on them whatsoever.

I've just been tightening it very tight, tighter than I would like, and have not had the problem again. The only thing I worry about is wearing out the internal flats of the hex interface.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:53 AM
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Loctite on stainless steel needs a primer. Here are the manufacturers instructions...

LOCTITE Threadlockers | How to apply LOCTITE Threadlocker - Henkel Adhesives North America Using a Loctite Threadlocker

The proper use of the fastener is the best way to go though.
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patjmc View Post
blue loctite wouldn't have to be used every time the screw was removed/replaced. There is usually residual dried on the threads that will still hold the screw tight.

I used fingernail polish instead, on my rifle scope mounts. Seems to work as good as Locktite.



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Old 03-12-2016, 01:29 PM
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Well I tightened it so tight the Allen wrench started to bend. Thought I had it and it nearly fell out the next range trip. To bad S&W didn't use a locking take down wheel like on my Beretta U22. I like this gun and will fix the problem some how. Don
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:30 PM
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I wonder if the problem guns screws are bottoming out? The screw will never tighten if it does.
I'm testing mine to 1000 rounds at 50 in./lbs. or I'd do it.
Could someone measure from the shoulder of the cap to the end of the thread and compare it to the shoulder of the trigger guard to the bottom of the threaded hole?
If that's the problem, all that would be needed is to file or grind a little off the end of the screw. S&W could send out new cap screws.

Last edited by AlwaysArmed; 03-12-2016 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triplettoo View Post
Hi all, I purchased my victory about two weeks ago. I've been to the range twice and both times the retaining screw did come loose. I opened a trouble ticket with SW customer service on monday asking for the torque spec. Here is the reply I received this morning. "Hand tightening should be enough. We do not have a specific spec on that."
That is just plain sad!
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Old 03-12-2016, 05:50 PM
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I just finished 1000 rounds today. My take down screw is still tight. I have five magazines and I got the barrel as hot as I could.
There is SOMETHING DIFFERENT from my SW22 to the ones who have problems.

Here is my method...
Clean and lubricate the take down screw using Mass Air Flow Sensor Cleaner to strip the screw and receiver threads clean and use M Pro 7 gun oil to lube the threads. No Loctite.
Tighten to 50 in./lbs. although the take down screw stayed tight at 40 in./lbs. through 500 rounds.
The shoulder of my cap screw is square and flat to the shank.
The resting place for the shoulder of the screw cap inside the frame is clean and flat. No shiny surface in there.
With the frame removed from the slide and barrel, my take down screw goes all the way into the threaded piece in the barrel until the threads end where the unthreaded shank starts.
The gap from the screw cap shoulder to the threaded piece in the barrel is less than the bulkhead in the frame. That means my screw isn't bottoming out before it gets tight.

My take down screw SNAPS when I break it loose.

There has to be something different between my SW22 and the problem pistols.

Last edited by AlwaysArmed; 03-12-2016 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 03-12-2016, 05:57 PM
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Another observation...
There are contact marks where my barrel meets the frame. No contact marks between the slide and the frame.
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Old 03-13-2016, 12:16 PM
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Just put a #61 o-ring in mine. Will see how it works next time out.
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Old 03-13-2016, 12:43 PM
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Well there are enough of us working on this problem we should come up with something. Alwaysarmed may have it but we will see. If I could get just half of what he is getting I could live with it. I think we should keep on S&W CS just in case they finely decide they may have a problem and have come up with a fix we don't know about. I will call them tomorrow as my screw nearly fell out. Don
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Old 03-13-2016, 01:56 PM
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I am not at all surprised by this. The Victory looks like a warmed over 22A. Use of a hex screw turned this Victory model into a non-starter for me as soon as I realized how take down was accomplished.
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Old 03-13-2016, 02:00 PM
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Default Red loctite

On my new 442 yoke screw. I thought it was a little tight. I guess they don't want folks messing around with the innards anymore.

I mean I didn't put lighter springs in there or anything but that must be what they are afraid of. I applied just a very wee bit of CLP on the sides of the hammer and besides, I always take everything down on a new gun just to see that everything is a-okay.

This was a brand new from the gun shop 442, not a used gun so it came that way from the factory.

Does this seem strange to anyone? That they evidently don't anticipate an owner will ever take the side plate off a 442?
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Old 03-13-2016, 02:52 PM
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Not that the information would be earth shaking, I would like to see included what ammo is being used included in the posts.
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  #46  
Old 03-13-2016, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
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I would like to see included what ammo is being used included in the posts.
CCI SV brick
Blazer brick
Federal Champion HP bulk pack blue box 525 rounds
Federal Champion brick
Aguila Super Extra HV brick
Aguila Rifle Match brick
CCI Mini Mag LRN 100 box
CCI Mini Mag HP 100 box
CCI Sub Sonic HP 100 box
Norma USA Tac-22 brick

That makes about 3000 rounds through this pistol without any glitch whatsoever.
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Old 03-13-2016, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
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Not that the information would be earth shaking, I would like to see included what ammo is being used included in the posts.
25 rounds of each. The screw was tighten as tight as I could get it with the Allen wrench provided. It was about to fall out on the last group shot.
Norma TAC-22
Remington Thunderbolts
CCI Standard Velocity
Federal Target Grade Auto Match
Eley Target
Aguila Rifle Match.

All ammo cycled fine and gave good groups.
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Old 03-13-2016, 10:12 PM
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I would use a bore brush a rimfire shooter best friend zip zip it is done a couple of q-tips a quick swipe of a toothbrush easy piese lemon easy
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Old 03-14-2016, 08:08 PM
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Fired another 100 rounds today and the Purple Loc Tite held so far. I normally only shoot a 100 rounds a range trip as I go 4 to 5 times a week. Don
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:21 PM
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fired 100 rounds today. So far o-ring seams to be working.
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