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Old 03-24-2016, 04:53 PM
harwood8330 harwood8330 is offline
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Default Used Performance Center Semi-auto Values

Good afternoon all,

I am interested in purchasing several Performance Center variations such as the Recons and Shortys. My go to source for ball park values has been Blue Book of Gun Values and Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson. However, the Performance Center guns haven't had much info or used prices. Anyone have an additional source that may provide production numbers, values, background info etc.? Also, do the models issued to Lew Horton bring higher values than the other dealers such as RSR, Camfour or Talo?

Thanks!
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:16 PM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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Lew Horton is a distributor, as anything the guns you are talking about sell all over the map. The biggest determining factors to me have seem to be the strength of the decal conditions. For example, I have seen Shorty 40 mk3, sell for $700-850 for beaters but I have also seen them go as high as $1850-2000 for pristine models.

It is similar to coins, watches and cars. Condition determines value, and the better the condition the better the value.
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:41 PM
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You can look at closed auctions for a starting price point.
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:38 PM
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Simply must know going in that it's a VERY fluid market. The sources you have listed are phenomenal when it comes to identification and in some cases, finding details that matter such as possible production numbers and original MSRP. Again -- incredibly fantastic resources in that manner.

However!
Those same resources? As actual PRICE guides -- ummm, price guides here in the Spring if 2016? Honestly -- those are almost worse than having NO other source.

Not trying to be funny or mean. But to be clear, printed price guides don't reflect reality, not in the age of the internet.

Gunbroker is not the definitive answer, but it is almost without argument the largest, active market. Gunbroker will offer the MOST data points and examples of real-world transactions. Beware that crazy, nutty, unrealistic things certainly also happen on Gunbroker. Sometimes that seems (too) often.
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:06 AM
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I re-read your post and it seems that you are asking MORE about info as much as a way to price these fine pistols.

The Standard Catalog of S&W -- FOURTH Edition is actually in the printing stage right now for what we hope is a summer release. In fact, you can pre-order it (at discount!) on Amazon right now.

Will the awesome SCSW have updated PC pistol information in the new Fourth Edition?! I don't know. But I sure hope so as these pistols are my passion also.
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Old 03-25-2016, 06:41 AM
harwood8330 harwood8330 is offline
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Thanks to everyone... I really appreciate your time and thoughts!
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:18 AM
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My two cents' worth, harwood:

You've been a member here for quite a while, apparently, but if you haven't spent a lot of time reading the extremely informative threads and watching the sales on this Forum, you will find that there is excellent reference material right here.

I have found that the prices asked and offered for Smith & Wesson handguns here on this site are overwhelmingly fair and, to the extent that it's possible to gauge such a fluid commodity, reflect "true" market value.

The only downside is that you might not be able to find recent sales on a particular model, but even so, reading threads about the model will often reveal discussions of what they are worth.

An excellent case in point, from my own very recent experience:

A very desirable, low production quantity 45ACP semi-auto showed up on Gunbroker with no reserve. I would love to own it, but I had no idea of what a fair price would be. Reading several threads about it right here, I found where a member whose opinions I value and trust had talked about that very model not long ago.

That member opined that one of these in excellent though fired condition was worth $850 to $1000. Seemed right to me, and I set my personal limit at $950. The gun sold for $1,075, which is (I think) right in line; I just wasn't prepared to go to that point.

People who sell guns here are, I think, those who genuinely want them to stay "in the family" and for other S&W enthusiasts to have them. For that reason, prices are usually set where informed, knowledgeable buyers and sellers will find common ground.

If I really "need" to sell a gun for the most I can get, I go to gunbroker for whatever deep-pockets buyer I can find. On the other hand, if I want to let go of a gun but want a friend to have it, I sell it here.
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:51 PM
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I just wanted to compliment you all on putting up such well considered posts. I don't believe a person could find a better discussion of the issue.
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Old 03-25-2016, 07:03 PM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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I do not know, I tried to sell a 3913 tsw here for a grand less than one just like it brought on GA a few months before. You would have thought I was trying to rob people. It turned into a flame fest and resulted in multiple bans and comments being deleted. Granted I do not think it was forum regulars as they would not comment on the price but move on and not comment. However, after that episode I think I will be going straight to GA or GB with all the pieces I want to sell in the future.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:03 PM
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Sounds like an odd, isolated incident and certainly not a PC gun.
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&theGiant1911 View Post
I do not know, I tried to sell a 3913 tsw here for a grand less than one just like it brought on GA a few months before. You would have thought I was trying to rob people. It turned into a flame fest and resulted in multiple bans and comments being deleted. Granted I do not think it was forum regulars as they would not comment on the price but move on and not comment. However, after that episode I think I will be going straight to GA or GB with all the pieces I want to sell in the future.
3913 TSWs go for how much? They aren't even PC guns.

TSW guns are in the $500 -$800 range around here.

PC guns are generally in tbe $1,000 - $2,400 range.

Neither are that easy to find, so if you've got to have it now you can certainly pay more.
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:08 PM
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If you can get a sw 45cqb those are pretty rare. Im still looking for a dual tone to go along with my all black one.someone here used to have the prototype.
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:27 PM
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3913 TSWs go for how much? They aren't even PC guns.

TSW guns are in the $500 -$800 range around here.

PC guns are generally in tbe $1,000 - $2,400 range.

Neither are that easy to find, so if you've got to have it now you can certainly pay more.
I saw a primo 3913tsw go for 1250 so it was not over a grand but 100 bucks less than that. I have also seen a shorty 40 bring 1850 - 2200.
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Old 03-26-2016, 01:15 AM
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As I said above -- it's prudent to keep in mind that sometimes, craziness happens on Gunbroker. It is real, I am not saying those prices didn't happen, but I am saying it's can be counter-productive to let the crazy example skew the larger picture of reality.

Case in point, March-2015 on Gunbroker and a 952-2 6" Long Slide. Final bid: $6,525 and I screen-shotted it as proof. Searching Gunbroker will not show it as they evaporate in about 2 months.

Real price, real sale. It takes three people -- one guy with a gun and two energetic bidders who really want it.

FACT is, that happened but a 952-2 6" Long Slide is currently NOT a $6,500 pistol. There are two available right this moment, the cheaper one for $5,700. The more expensive one also available now has been live and ready to buy for more than one full year. Literally has been live for 54 weeks.

But alas, I have posted about this before. I suppose it's because I find it entertaining... but it is a fine example just the same.

An incident of excitable lunacy on Gunbroker may be real and truth -- but it does NOT make the market. It's merely another single data point.
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Old 03-26-2016, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James&theGiant1911 View Post
I do not know, I tried to sell a 3913 tsw here for a grand less than one just like it brought on GA a few months before. You would have thought I was trying to rob people. It turned into a flame fest and resulted in multiple bans and comments being deleted. Granted I do not think it was forum regulars as they would not comment on the price but move on and not comment. However, after that episode I think I will be going straight to GA or GB with all the pieces I want to sell in the future.
I don't want any of us to have to relive that awful thread. I'll be polite and just say that it was not the best conceived approach to actually sell a "pre-rail" Model 3913TSW. In fact, I believe you made the point that it was just a feeler ad and that you really weren't all that serious about selling it in the first place. Those are the kinds of posts that bring out the nuts and the very worst in people.

In your situation, if you were really serious about selling it for top dollar, you should have gone straight to GB. That's what I would have done. I'll be in a similar situation later this year on a Colt I own and I see no point in messing around. If you want or need top dollar for a rare gun, GB is your marketplace.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:20 AM
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+1 to the posts about Gunbroker as a barometer, not a thermometer, of the market. One of the reasons I enjoy the site so much is watching some of the items selling for previously unheard-of prices. Just this week, a NIB Shorty 45 Mk II went for over $2,000. Will this set a new bar for that model? I don't know, but it's fascinating to watch.

Performance Center guns such as the one the OP asked about -- especially those in limited runs (the Shorty 45 MkII was 179 pieces, IIRC) -- are both uncommon and exciting to see when they do come on the market, especially NIB with all that came with them.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:41 AM
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ericlw That would be me who owns the black PC 45CQB Prototype. When I sell it, it will be on Gunbroker. I am not a non-profit and will be taking full advantage of the craziness that happens on that site.

Having the copy of the American Handgunner magazine it appeared in with it, is better than a Jinks letter. Regards 18DAI
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Old 03-26-2016, 08:35 AM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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I don't want any of us to have to relive that awful thread. I'll be polite and just say that it was not the best conceived approach to actually sell a "pre-rail" Model 3913TSW. In fact, I believe you made the point that it was just a feeler ad and that you really weren't all that serious about selling it in the first place. Those are the kinds of posts that bring out the nuts and the very worst in people.

In your situation, if you were really serious about selling it for top dollar, you should have gone straight to GB. That's what I would have done. I'll be in a similar situation later this year on a Colt I own and I see no point in messing around. If you want or need top dollar for a rare gun, GB is your marketplace.
Just 2 months prior a pre rail 3913 TSW went for 1250 + FFL fee on GA. I do not know if it was a one time thing but it sold for that so I thought I would send out feelers here for it. I should have threw it on GA with a 1250 reserve and see if it could have been repeated.

Finding 95-99 percent 3913 tacticals are not easy to do, today. Most in the 500-800 dollar range have huge holster wear and faded rubbed off decals.

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Old 03-26-2016, 08:49 AM
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Just 2 months prior a pre rail 3913 TSW went for 1250 + FFL fee on GA. I do not know if it was a one time thing but it sold for that so I thought I would send out feelers here for it. I should have threw it on GA with a 1250 reserve and see if it could have been repeated.

Finding 95-99 percent 3913 tacticals are not easy to do, today. Most in the 500-800 dollar range have huge holster wear and faded rubbed off decals.
Not to argue with you, but just this week, a very nice example 3913TSW pre-rail that was listed on a couple of sites (not GB) sold within a day or two for $750. One of our members here bought it, and he got a heckuva good buy. Only reason I didn't go for it is because I don't have any 9mm stuff -- but I still gave it a thought....
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:04 AM
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Not to argue with you, but just this week, a very nice example 3913TSW pre-rail that was listed on a couple of sites (not GB) sold within a day or two for $750. One of our members here bought it, and he got a heckuva good buy. Only reason I didn't go for it is because I don't have any 9mm stuff -- but I still gave it a thought....
I said it could have been a one time thing, two bidders in a bidding war for that one piece that pops up from time to time. 750 is not a bad deal, but it is my gun and I can not speak for the others but it has everything it came from the factory with. It is complete with the separate magazine bump stops and all.

If I cared I would or wanted to sell it then I would have just threw it on GA with a 1250 reserve and seen if it could have been repeated. I figure offering it here for 100 dollars less was a good thing since this is an enthusiast forum. Instead it turned into a complaint fest and I never even rechecked the thread or responded to anything. Since all offers and comments were deleted before I received them.

I can not speak for other peoples 3913s but this one is special. I would imagine 1 out of 100 pieces in the top 1-2 percent for all 3913 tsws out there. It is brand new in box and is not a 700-800 piece in my opinion. If it was not perfect then I would not have put that price on it. It is a gun case piece which I do not shoot. It is meant to stay that way as normal worn out pieces continue to sell for 500-800 bucks.

If condition is truly a barometer for gun values then anyone would be a fool to sell a brand new piece for a used piece. There is not one 3913 tsw for sale on GA or GB at the moment. Most are rail guns, and most are very used for your 700 dollar price tag. A lot of times you can not even read the tactical decals on the side slide.

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Old 03-26-2016, 09:09 AM
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Not to argue with you, but just this week, a very nice example 3913TSW pre-rail that was listed on a couple of sites (not GB) sold within a day or two for $750. One of our members here bought it, and he got a heckuva good buy. Only reason I didn't go for it is because I don't have any 9mm stuff -- but I still gave it a thought....
Yeah, one infamous MA owner tried to sell his as-new "pre-rail" 3913TSW for over a year at something like $900 to $1K. It didn't go anywhere until he dropped the price down into the $700-$800 neighborhood... then it sold fairly quickly.

It doesn't matter to me 'cause even $700 is out of my price range. I'm strictly a "plain vanilla" 3rd Gen kind of guy.

A gun is only worth what you can buy it for or what you can get for it. Believing it is worth a whole lot more just because you saw a crazy price once on GB is kind of deceiving yourself. Although you never know unless you try. You could get lucky!

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Old 03-26-2016, 09:30 AM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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I know the market have watched it, and no way is my piece going for 700-800 dollars. No way, I kind of want to set a classified ad up for it just to see if it can be repeated. All of you with Performance Center pieces should want the values go up, the more TSWs and PC guns sell for higher prices the better your gun values are.

I do not have to sell, did not want to sell it. Basically it was just me looking to see if it could be done again. Honestly it you all can buy the type of condition my 3913tsw is in for that price then you should buy any and all you find. Somehow I would imagine the books would be missing, the condition would not be there, maybe other parts that originally included would not be there.

None of you and none of the people in this thread are buyers for it. Nor were you buyers of my other pieces which according to you all are astronomically top of the world marks. I have seen the 500-800 tacticals on GA and GB. They do not hold a candle, but good luck with your searches and purchases. None of you will ever own a 99 percent 3913TSW, brand new in box.

Good Luck.
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:09 PM
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I don't blame you a bit for trying to get all your gun might be worth. You never know when the right buyer has the right amount of money burning a hole in his checkbook at the right time.

During the past two years, I bought two S&Ws in which I had been interested, a Doug Keonig PC1911 in .38 Super with its aluminum case and all the goodies and a Model 686-3 National Match, a one of 500 piece made in 1989 for Bill Davis, a well-known revolver specialist, that came to me as the gun only. I might have paid a little too much for both but those two guns don't pop up on the used gun market often and both were in like-new condition. I wanted them and had the extra cash so I'm happy. They'll only become more valuable as time goes on.

I shot them both yesterday as a matter of fact and the revolver is more accurate than the 1911 but the Super still has its fiber-optic front sight in place and it is harder to hold a repeatable, defined sight picture with that glowing blob instead of the revolver's Patridge (which I have for the 1911 and should get around to installing).

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Old 03-26-2016, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
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All of you with Performance Center pieces should want the values go up, the more TSWs and PC guns sell for higher prices the better your gun values are.
Ever pause, take a breath, maybe re-read what you post and consider that your view is simply that and not necessarily what others would subscribe to?

Seems like the value of what you have is number 1 on your list. This ends up as a nice payoff if it gets stolen or you plan to retire to the Cayman Islands on all your gun investments.

Me? I love to shoot them. I also like to chase MORE of them. Plotting, hoping and praying that all the prices on PC guns climb to the heavens gets me NOWHERE. I'm not selling mine, I'm trying to add more of them.

I missed your epic, original 3913 thread tragedy. Lucky for me -- but it kind of looks like we get to re-live it right here in this thread. Seemingly endless... all for a carry gun that's not even Performance Center.

To be crystal clear -- your method and view of what a handgun should be to YOU is absolutely, without question-- correct. For YOU.

To me, it's ludicrous to sit around hoping the finest series of semi-auto pistols made all rocket in price/value, making it nearly impossible for me to get more -- and making it a worry to wear down or possibly break one of the ones I already have and love.
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Old 03-26-2016, 01:34 PM
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Sure my view is mine, there is not doubt in my mind that I could go to GA right now and post pics of the 3913tsw on there and get what I am saying.of course then I would have to deliver the firearm to whoever bought it. I typical will only buy pristine condition rare pieces but I do buy shooters and shoot them but as more and more rare third gens get beat up and carried, it will only increase the rare tactical and performance mdels values.

It is better to find a better buyer for those rare pristine models it means that it will be taken care of after the sell,
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Old 03-26-2016, 01:49 PM
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My advice is to always get them as cheap as you can. Don't let emotion drive the wallet out of your pocket.

Emotion has driven prices through the roof.
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Old 03-26-2016, 01:51 PM
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ericlw That would be me who owns the black PC 45CQB Prototype. When I sell it, it will be on Gunbroker. I am not a non-profit and will be taking full advantage of the craziness that happens on that site.

Having the copy of the American Handgunner magazine it appeared in with it, is better than a Jinks letter. Regards 18DAI
I might be willing to pay you a craziness price if you can wait a few months for me to find a new job.lol
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Old 03-26-2016, 02:03 PM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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We should all be in agreement that the PC shorty 40 and 45 are 1800 - 2200 guns. Sine this thread is about performance center models; however, the tactical models share some craftsmanship and lineage to the performance center models.
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Old 03-26-2016, 02:20 PM
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We should all be in agreement that the PC shorty 40 and 45 are 1800 - 2200 guns.
Dang! I knew I shoulda bought that Shorty 40 for $899 when I had the chance!
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Old 03-26-2016, 02:23 PM
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Haha, yeah, and the TSW models certainly have direct lineage from the 3rd Gens which obviously were drawn from the upgraded 2nd Gens which no doubt came directly from the 39, 59, pre-38 and 147A, etc etc.

Some are production guns, made by the thousands. The PC guns were built by the hundreds -- some less.
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Old 03-26-2016, 02:48 PM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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No kidding, so now I know the game. You all have an idea of what a gun is worth based off beaters selling on GA or GB. So what about the 2200 dollar Shorty 40/45 that sells or what about the 3913tsw that sells for 1250. Obviously to the Op and like I said prices are every where because they are based on condition. Which is why I would never buy the smith and Wesson guide it is out dated before it hits the streets. Ever see a 71 cuda sell for 18 grand for a beater driver vs 50 grand for a restored one. Same concept
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:34 PM
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In regards to the 952-2 6 inch that sold for $6,525. I was in contact with the seller during and after that auction. I stated then that he would hold the record for a long time. I think he was the most surprised of all at the sale price.

I have a 952-2LS heavy slide and would love to think it is worth very big bucks but it will not bring but a little over 1/2 of that. With that said I can always hope for someone with deep pockets. Certain model guns are like cars,you buy them and hold on to them and hope you picked the right one. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:18 PM
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No kidding, so now I know the game. You all have an idea of what a gun is worth based off beaters selling on GA or GB.
A gun is worth what the buyer and seller agree upon. Sometimes, the buyers spend some time arguing their role and the seller waits to see where they end up.

You may continue wishing that some magic formula is possible but in the real world, it's not. Changes with every transaction.
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Old 03-28-2016, 06:49 AM
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Congratulations, OP, on the latest addition to your growing stable of production and PC S&W semi-autos!

You're nudging that barometer upward on the NIB Third Gen PC 45s, and I for one think that's a good thing.

We have to acknowledge that many of these are at the very least uncommon, and some truly rare, so seeing the prices approaching the $2K level is not really surprising given the quality in addition to the low numbers.
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Old 03-28-2016, 08:57 AM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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The new performance center pieces are nice too, and a lot more reasonably priced. I do not know or understand why these older PC models bring huge money for what they are. The newer PC models in 1911 and revolvers seem to be priced better than the older stuff. Maybe it is some sort of perceived scarcity for them or maybe the market is larger and the amount of those pieces is small.

Either way it seems to be a good thing for the older pieces, but before I would buy a huge PC 45 or 40, I would get a Nighthawk or Wilson combat. I have a Nighthawk performance commander model and they are a class above any performance center. There has to be limits to what I consider price/ value that is above what the PC models were ever intended to do.
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Old 03-28-2016, 09:09 AM
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IIRC............

the Shorty 40s were the most common of the PC guns produced in the early to mid-90s.......everyone needed/wanted a .40 vs. a 9 or .45.....

Makes me wonder about the less common PC guns like the "SD" 9mm,40s and .356s.......(edit I own an SD-9 one of only 179 IIRC)

The unmarked and unnamed PC 9mm's based on the 6906/04 models.... (edit: I own two, both reverse two-tone, that match nothing exactly as described in the SCS&W .....have carried one as my hi-cap compact concealed carry gun since about 95/96..... who knew..... kind of like the guys who actually used their RMs in the 30s)

The DPA 5906s.....that had a few but small (?) runs........(edit; mine is serial # DPA00xx)

The Recon .45s........

and others from the same period.

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Old 03-28-2016, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by James&theGiant1911 View Post
The new performance center pieces are nice too, and a lot more reasonably priced. I do not know or understand why these older PC models bring huge money for what they are. The newer PC models in 1911 and revolvers seem to be priced better than the older stuff. Maybe it is some sort of perceived scarcity for them or maybe the market is larger and the amount of those pieces is small.

Either way it seems to be a good thing for the older pieces, but before I would buy a huge PC 45 or 40, I would get a Nighthawk or Wilson combat. I have a Nighthawk performance commander model and they are a class above any performance center. There has to be limits to what I consider price/ value that is above what the PC models were ever intended to do.

There have been several threads that equate the older (90s) PC guns with hand built custom guns...... designed and built by the PC's founding old school master "gunsmiths"...... while newer PC guns are more about unique "looks" than being true custom built guns.

In the 90s one of the ideas I heard floated about PC guns was that rather than having to buy a "stock" gun then send it out to be torn apart and customized...(think ASP or Trapper guns of the 80s).....

the PC shop used some stock and some custom parts of their own design to build "custom Smiths" from the ground up at about 2X the cost of a factory model but still costing less than half of, for example, having an ASP made from a 39 ..........


IMHO the "old PC shop" has a lot in common with shops like Wilson today.

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Old 03-28-2016, 09:49 AM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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Shorty 40s were limited to 500 pieces each, my Mk3 is one of 500. It is pretty limited. I have heard the 45s and 9s are the same case for the Performance Center models.

Well, I am not spending the money for a Wilson Combat or Nighthawk on a Performance Center smith. To someone it might meet the threshold for me it does not. I love limited pieces and rare guns as much as the next fella but regardless of what you opinion of them are. No Performance Center 45 holds a candle to a good Nighthawk/ Wilson as similar no 9mm PC can hold a candle to Novak's Hi Power 9s.

When a Smith goes for those prices that is where I am spending my money. Like the people wanting to sell a 9mm ASP or 652 for 4000-6500 dollars. They might eventually get what they want but how long does that take?

You have people on this forum from both threads whining about paying 1500-2500 for a older PC gun when some of the new ones sell in that range. The craftsmanship on the custom guns is so much better than the older Smith and Wesson pieces. I once had a Colt Special Combat, which is Colt's attempt to compete with Wilson/ Nighthawk well for a few hundred more you can get a real custom and not a gun which is produced in bunches then customized by a shop to make it a custom firearm.
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:27 AM
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LOL...... according to "Inflation Calculator" a $900-1000 PC gun bought in 1996 would be going for $1,360-$1,500.......today.....

I got my 4 between about 94-98 used and new but for ....IIRC all/each less than $650; and in my opinion the PC guns are a few steps above factory standards. ( One local Police Supply/LGS had quit a collection... which didn't sell ...... so after 2/3 years in inventory they wanted them sold/gone)

Having been on Wilson's site........he has "In Stock Firearms" so I'd guess he makes batches of his "standard" products....... along with "one off" custom orders.............heck he has Beretta make him 1000 gun runs of his $1,100-1,200 "Custom" Beretta 92s!

All I was saying above is that; old PC designed upgrades to factory guns then built those guns from scratch..... much like Wilson or other "Custom" gunsmiths.........

Back in the day.......new PC guns "sold" for $800-1000 new ...... while Wilson and Novack's price points IIRC, were more like $1,500-2000.

For me I wouldn't pay the prices being asked for some of the old PC Smiths....... but I'm not a "deep pockets collector" trying to fill out his/her collection.

I've passed on Bill Wilson's Beretta's my Factory Elite IIs are good enough for me. I'd love a Novack Browning HP...... but while I'd have great pride in ownership.....I wouldn't carry it ...... so it's not worth it to me to pay full retail, or a premium, for one!

Too each their own......................
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:40 AM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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Gee, the Performance Center guns from the 90s now have asking prices well into the 3-4-5 grand range. Look at the Anacondas, it is what it is. All I was saying is it is really hard for me to give that kind of money for 20-30-40 year old Smiths when that much buys a lot better guns.

I pretty much have all the guns, I wanted in my collection. Nothing really catches my eyes any more other than the Smith Performance wheel guns. I really like Thunder Ranches and R8s a lot.
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Old 03-28-2016, 01:47 PM
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It might help at least a bit with perception if we can toss out the idea that there were kind of two different levels or "echelons" of PC semiauto pistols. And try and not get bent out of shape here, but...

The PC carry/defense guns are NICE. They are extremely sharp looking, low in production numbers and with smooth DA triggers and Briley bushings. But those DA/SA pistols don't quite match up with the Limited 5-inch and 6-inch precision, single action target pistols.

The 952's, 845's, the 3566 Limited, the PPC9's and various Euro-Target Champion guns offer something beyond the classy and short-printed PC carry pistols and they cost more when new and they tend to (typically) go for more money now.
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
It might help at least a bit with perception if we can toss out the idea that there were kind of two different levels or "echelons" of PC semiauto pistols. And try and not get bent out of shape here, but...

The PC carry/defense guns are NICE. They are extremely sharp looking, low in production numbers and with smooth DA triggers and Briley bushings. But those DA/SA pistols don't quite match up with the Limited 5-inch and 6-inch precision, single action target pistols.

The 952's, 845's, the 3566 Limited, the PPC9's and various Euro-Target Champion guns offer something beyond the classy and short-printed PC carry pistols and they cost more when new and they tend to (typically) go for more money now.
Why should we "toss out the idea that there are two different levels...of PC semi-auto pistols".....?????????????? LOL... your very post seems to imply there were two levels........ Nice carry guns that don't "match up" to the PC target guns..


You are right they were different guns for different purposes.......carry vs target pistols.....but you're still talking guns mostly from the 1990s;

3566;1993
845s; 95-97, 98
952; 2000

As far as I know none of those have been made for at least 10-15 years.

I've seen a "lot" of threads over the past 15 years talking about the PC revolvers..... looking cool but nothing special in the action/accuracy dept.

Now the PC is making PC M&Ps ...........................OK....what's so PC about them ....... ported barrels?.....after market trigger?.... Hi-Vis sights?

As to the 1911s...... I don't know......but only 1/3 the price of a Wilson.


But the PC isn't making any of the custom guns of the 90s anymore.....folks want them and prices have gone up.......but "3-4-5 grand" guns they are not.....IMHO...

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Old 03-28-2016, 04:22 PM
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If somebody wants to give me $2K for my LNIB PC Shorty 9 please have your FFL fax a copy to my FFL. Oh, and THANK YOU!!!
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Old 03-28-2016, 07:17 PM
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Shocked that someone got annoyed with a post. Like never happens...

I'm merely attempting to SHARE the idea that the 5-6" Performance Center target pistols are trading (typically) at prices above and beyond what the shorter, smaller, defense/carry oriented DA/SA pistols trade at, and perhaps suggest why that might be.

In any case, when I said "toss out the idea" I didn't mean "throw the idea away", I meant "put this idea out here to be discussed a bit."

952? If it's priced at $1,800 consider it SOLD, gone, vaporized, history, yesterday's news and you won't get a second chance. 952 can and will sell comfortably at $2,500+. And though these are totally amazing pistols, I believe (simply compared to other PC semiautos) that the 952's are just a bit inflated considered they were perhaps made in the highest volume compared to any/all of the other 5-6" target PC pistols.

The most recent 845 on Gunbroker didn't sell at $2495 until it ran for three weeks. VERY surprising to me, I figured it was a slam-dunk at $2,495. The last two were over $2,700. That's a pistol that reportedly under 600 were made.
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Old 03-29-2016, 08:37 AM
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Shocked that someone got annoyed with a post. Like never happens...

I'm merely attempting to SHARE the idea that the 5-6" Performance Center target pistols are trading (typically) at prices above and beyond what the shorter, smaller, defense/carry oriented DA/SA pistols trade at, and perhaps suggest why that might be.

In any case, when I said "toss out the idea" I didn't mean "throw the idea away", I meant "put this idea out here to be discussed a bit."

952? If it's priced at $1,800 consider it SOLD, gone, vaporized, history, yesterday's news and you won't get a second chance. 952 can and will sell comfortably at $2,500+. And though these are totally amazing pistols, I believe (simply compared to other PC semiautos) that the 952's are just a bit inflated considered they were perhaps made in the highest volume compared to any/all of the other 5-6" target PC pistols.

The most recent 845 on Gunbroker didn't sell at $2495 until it ran for three weeks. VERY surprising to me, I figured it was a slam-dunk at $2,495. The last two were over $2,700. That's a pistol that reportedly under 600 were made.

LOL.... Sevens...... sorry I misinterpreted your comments........

my point all along is that the originators of the PC ...... were eliminating the need to send factory guns out to be customized...... by purpose building "custom" guns from scratch ....... like a Wilson Combat.....that philosophy seems to have been lost at the PC in the past decade........

therefore searching for and buying a older PC gun is like finding a gun customized in the 70s, 80s by well known gunsmiths........but the limited supply of 90's PC guns is driving the prices up......

what those guns are "worth" depends on who and why they want them....
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Old 03-29-2016, 11:50 AM
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Oh, it's all good!

In my opinion, there are S&W semiauto pistols available on the used market (well out of production) that does NOT have the PC logo or name but it absolutely has the Performance Center blood in them. That would be the models 41 and 52.

The fitment, the slide-on-frame "feel", the lock-up, the on-target accuracy/repeatability and as much as anything -- the incredible trigger (clean, light, short break, lack of overtravel and terrific reset) makes these two older pistols thoroughly Performance Center in all but name.

If someone considers themselves big fans of the golden era of the PC and digs the semiautos we know and love, they are cheating themselves if they haven't chased the 41 & 52.

I realize the 41 is still in production... but I've never handled a newer 41 so I'll have to reserve comment until I have.
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Old 03-29-2016, 12:15 PM
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So true.........I have my Father's early 60s 41............wish my 60 something eyes were up to getting the best out of it!!!!!
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Old 03-29-2016, 12:37 PM
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So true.........I have my Father's early 60s 41............wish my 60 something eyes were up to getting the best out of it!!!!!
Two words: Red dot. Not the powder or a laser either. Although my vision isn't terrible, I still shoot better when using a red dot in place of open/iron sights. Bought my first Aimpoint in the late 80's, just about the time my eyes started losing their ability to see both sights clearly, especially in low light situations like at one of our local indoor ranges. I stuck it on a Browning GP Competition, and the difference was very noticeable, not only to me, but to my friends who shot it and wanted one for their guns. Aimpoint has gotten pretty pricey now days, but there are cheaper alternatives, especially for a low recoil firearm like the 41. Of course if your 41 is old, you might have to decide whether or not you want drill and tap holes in the top, but I suspect since it was your father's, you aren't worried about resale value.
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:28 PM
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Two words: Red dot. Not the powder or a laser either. Although my vision isn't terrible, I still shoot better when using a red dot in place of open/iron sights. Bought my first Aimpoint in the late 80's, just about the time my eyes started losing their ability to see both sights clearly, especially in low light situations like at one of our local indoor ranges. I stuck it on a Browning GP Competition, and the difference was very noticeable, not only to me, but to my friends who shot it and wanted one for their guns. Aimpoint has gotten pretty pricey now days, but there are cheaper alternatives, especially for a low recoil firearm like the 41. Of course if your 41 is old, you might have to decide whether or not you want drill and tap holes in the top, but I suspect since it was your father's, you aren't worried about resale value.

Drill and tap a family heirloom........NOOOOOooooooo!!!!!!!

LOL
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:26 PM
James&theGiant1911 James&theGiant1911 is offline
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Here is a PC insert from my mk3, it is pretty cool and very rare. Do not know how many have survived in tact with the cases, and pistols.
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