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Old 04-30-2016, 10:35 PM
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In follow up to my earlier post, I could really use some help in regards to 59/659/5906 magazines. I won't list all the minutia here, but will summarize. Due to the lack of 10 round magazine availability, I have dug through my parts bin and located old magazines parts, which I am attempting to put together. The finished products are not up to snuff, and I need some guidance on parts compatibility. Please PM me and I will post the pertinent info when successful.
thanks, fuzzy
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Old 04-30-2016, 11:21 PM
HOUSTON RICK HOUSTON RICK is offline
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I cannot tell where you live, but the gun shows here in Houston have several excellent mag distributors, that have obtained a lot more exotic mags for me than 10 MM. What are you looking for?
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Old 04-30-2016, 11:37 PM
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You can PM me if you like.
Since Mec Gar makes 10 round mags for the 59 series, I can only guess that you are trying to get 10 round mags for a 69 series?
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Old 05-01-2016, 05:52 AM
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10-round Mec-Gar 5900-series magazines are readily available for cheap if you can live with blue (vs. stainless steel)...

Mec-Gar Mag S&W 5900 Series 915 910 695 9mm Luger Steel

... so I'm not seeing the issue.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:02 AM
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Thanks for the replies guys. Rick, I am looking for 5906 mags. Yes, I have mec-gars, but their 59 series are the only ones I find that are not reliable. I am not a fan of the short mag body with big black bottom. The spring tension is so variable from full to empty, they don't function 100% in any of my 59 series guns. The Walther 9mm and Sig 9mm are the same, which is why I blame the design.
Nonetheless, thanks for the input. Oh yes, one more thing. I have grandfathered high cap bodies that I can't buy in California.
fuzzy
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:19 PM
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I am not a fan of the short mag body with big black bottom. The spring tension is so variable from full to empty, they don't function 100% in any of my 59 series guns.
Okay, this part I get. And I share your feelings on that.

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Oh yes, one more thing. I have grandfathered high cap bodies that I can't buy in California.
Not being an expert on ever-changing California compliance, I can't tell if you are trying to rebuild a grandfathered hi-cap magazine or trying to make a grandfathered hi-cap magazine into a compliant magazine. Either way, I probably wouldn't be any help.
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Old 05-01-2016, 03:56 PM
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Mec Gar was the OEM manufacturer for the 59xx series magazines. Except for the markings, they are identical to S&W marked magazines.

I have some of both and have taken them apart and done mix and match with parts. Unlike say, Pro Mag, all of the parts are interchangeable.

If you take an orange 15 round follower from a Mec Gar an put it into a 14 round S&W body, you have a 15 round magazines. And vice versa.

If the springs are suspect, replacing them with new ones would be the thing to do. When I buy used magazines, I always take them apart, inspect and clean them, and replace the springs with new ones.

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Thanks for the replies guys. Rick, I am looking for 5906 mags. Yes, I have mec-gars, but their 59 series are the only ones I find that are not reliable. I am not a fan of the short mag body with big black bottom. The spring tension is so variable from full to empty, they don't function 100% in any of my 59 series guns. The Walther 9mm and Sig 9mm are the same, which is why I blame the design.
Nonetheless, thanks for the input. Oh yes, one more thing. I have grandfathered high cap bodies that I can't buy in California.
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Old 05-02-2016, 04:01 AM
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Mec Gar was the OEM manufacturer for the 59xx series magazines. Except for the markings, they are identical to S&W marked magazines.

I have some of both and have taken them apart and done mix and match with parts. Unlike say, Pro Mag, all of the parts are interchangeable.

If you take an orange 15 round follower from a Mec Gar an put it into a 14 round S&W body, you have a 15 round magazines. And vice versa.

If the springs are suspect, replacing them with new ones would be the thing to do. When I buy used magazines, I always take them apart, inspect and clean them, and replace the springs with new ones.
Where did you find factual proof that MecGar was the OEM manufacturer for S&W 5906 mags. I find that extremely hard to believe owning many S&W 59, 147A, 5906 and 6906 (and the like of shorter mags for similiar models) and mags supplied with a Marlin Camp 9. I have many of the factory S&W mags and only one or two aftermarket mags that came my way only because they were supplied with lot of parts I purchased from a fellow member. My observation is that the Factory Mags and the AM mags are considerably different. One of the AM mags (IIRC is a MecGar) has a coiled steel spring instead of the standard factory spring while the body shape of the mag itself is not as detailed as the OEM.
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Old 05-02-2016, 07:27 AM
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Where did you find factual proof that MecGar was the OEM manufacturer for S&W 5906 mags. I find that extremely hard to believe owning many S&W 59, 147A, 5906 and 6906 (and the like of shorter mags for similiar models) and mags supplied with a Marlin Camp 9. I have many of the factory S&W mags and only one or two aftermarket mags that came my way only because they were supplied with lot of parts I purchased from a fellow member. My observation is that the Factory Mags and the AM mags are considerably different. One of the AM mags (IIRC is a MecGar) has a coiled steel spring instead of the standard factory spring while the body shape of the mag itself is not as detailed as the OEM.
Well, several points...

First off, GaryS said 5900-series magazines... which is a generalization that covers a lot of ground. To me a 5900-series magazine means anything from the earliest Model 59 & 147A magazines to the very last post-ban 5906TSW/910 magazines in stainless including 10-round "politically correct" ones for folks like me behind enemy lines.

Secondly, you are right in that the very first Model 59/147A production magazines were reportedly made by Check-Mate. But after that, things get a bit more squirrelly... and stories and rumors abound (many if not most of them false) about who made what and when.

Mec-Gar and many other third party magazine manufacturers all claim to have made S&W OEM pistol magazines (or component parts for same) at one time or another. There is also good evidence that S&W manufactured some pistol magazines in house. But when and what S&W did magazine-wise is still not well-documented outside the offices of the mothership and rumors aren't hard evidence of anything. A quick check of the forum archives shows just how much confusion and conflicting stories there are on this topic.

Like you, I don't think Mec-Gar made the last generation of stainless steel 5900-series magazines. I'd love to know who did, but I don't believe it was Mec-Gar. For one thing, Mec-Gar is not big into stainless steel magazines. Also, the magazines they currently manufacture and sell for the 5900-series guns are either black carbon steel or nickel-plated carbon steel... no stainless... and they are of the older design, not the "new" design with more numbered witness holes. Mec-Gar's 10-round design approach also differs from the approach taken on S&W's "factory" magazines.

There are letter codes on many of the S&W pistol magazines and I'd love for someone to tell me definitively what they mean. Yes, I know "S" means "stainless steel"... I'm talking about the other letters.

Bottom line is that I, too, have my doubts about who made what and when. I'd love to see this topic addressed with more than just rumors and conflicting stories... like you say, give me some "factual evidence"! But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

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Old 05-02-2016, 07:51 AM
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I wouldn't say the design was bad. The design works great for what it was designed for. Primarily 15 rounds. Making that design work with 10 rounds may be a problem but it wasn't designed to be 10 rounds. If it helps the same problem exists with many other mags that were originally 15+ rounds and retrofitted for 10

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Old 05-02-2016, 10:10 AM
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Believe me, don't believe me, I don't really care. You asked for help and I tried to help. I'm done with the thread and with you. Life it too short...

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Where did you find factual proof that MecGar was the OEM manufacturer for S&W 5906 mags. I find that extremely hard to believe owning many S&W 59, 147A, 5906 and 6906 (and the like of shorter mags for similiar models) and mags supplied with a Marlin Camp 9. I have many of the factory S&W mags and only one or two aftermarket mags that came my way only because they were supplied with lot of parts I purchased from a fellow member. My observation is that the Factory Mags and the AM mags are considerably different. One of the AM mags (IIRC is a MecGar) has a coiled steel spring instead of the standard factory spring while the body shape of the mag itself is not as detailed as the OEM.
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:46 AM
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Wow, that is tons of info and every little bit helps. I apologize if I created an argument, I hate the see that happen. We are all on the same team, bound by a long line of great pistols.
Let me try to be brief. To clarify, our restricted mec-gars have bodies shorter then the gun, with long bases so they won't hold more than ten. I would bet that the 15 round Mec-gars work great, but I can't get them. I have original 59 mags (complete) and a mix of 10 round and 15 round OE stainless mags, as well as the 659 15 mag bodies in question. The 59 series black followers are not the same as any of the orange later ones. The black ones fit the current wolff springs perfectly, but the orange ones do not. Also, the current orange follower is too wide at the base to easily slip into the bottom of the 659 bodies, so I would have to modify to even try them. BTW, my 659 bodies appear to be factory but only have an "S" as far as markings go.
I hope to locate some of the original black followers which I think will help the problem, but who knows. See, I told you it was a long story, but this project is worth it if I can assemble 4 more factory stainless magazines.
thanks again for all the help,
fuzzy
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:22 PM
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No, I'm the one that owes you an apology. I confused model3sw as the original poster in the thread. My bad.

Now that you've added the additional information, the problem is much more clear. I would suspect that MecGar modified the 10 round magazine design so that they can't be converted to higher capacity. S&W did that with the M&P9c magazines so that 10 round MA legal magazines can not be made into higher capacity magazines.

I thought that you were discussing 14 or 15 round magazines. I can't help you with 10 round Mec Gar magazines as I've never seen one.

Sorry for the confusion.

I will say that sometimes posting pictures helps tell the story.

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Wow, that is tons of info and every little bit helps. I apologize if I created an argument, I hate the see that happen. We are all on the same team, bound by a long line of great pistols.
Let me try to be brief. To clarify, our restricted mec-gars have bodies shorter then the gun, with long bases so they won't hold more than ten. I would bet that the 15 round Mec-gars work great, but I can't get them. I have original 59 mags (complete) and a mix of 10 round and 15 round OE stainless mags, as well as the 659 15 mag bodies in question. The 59 series black followers are not the same as any of the orange later ones. The black ones fit the current wolff springs perfectly, but the orange ones do not. Also, the current orange follower is too wide at the base to easily slip into the bottom of the 659 bodies, so I would have to modify to even try them. BTW, my 659 bodies appear to be factory but only have an "S" as far as markings go.
I hope to locate some of the original black followers which I think will help the problem, but who knows. See, I told you it was a long story, but this project is worth it if I can assemble 4 more factory stainless magazines.
thanks again for all the help,
fuzzy
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:40 PM
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To clarify, our restricted mec-gars have bodies shorter then the gun, with long bases so they won't hold more than ten. I would bet that the 15 round Mec-gars work great, but I can't get them. I have original 59 mags (complete) and a mix of 10 round and 15 round OE stainless mags, as well as the 659 15 mag bodies in question. The 59 series black followers are not the same as any of the orange later ones. The black ones fit the current Wolff springs perfectly, but the orange ones do not. Also, the current orange follower is too wide at the base to easily slip into the bottom of the 659 bodies, so I would have to modify to even try them. BTW, my 659 bodies appear to be factory but only have an "S" as far as markings go. I hope to locate some of the original black followers which I think will help the problem, but who knows.
Okay, now I see what you're trying to do.

I can't speak to the issue of Wolff springs not working with the S&W orange followers as I have not tried to use any Wolff magazine springs so far.

However, the orange followers not fitting into a 659 magazine tube doesn't make sense. 1) Are you sure you have the right 9mm followers... and, 2) Are you sure they are S&W factory followers?

S&W used orange followers on a lot of different magazines so first thing I'd do is make sure they are the right ones. Also be aware that other manufacturers have made orange followers for their own 3rd party 5900-series magazines.

I'll be in a position to help you a little more by the weekend. I've got some magazine parts coming in myself and I'll be able to see if I have the same problems you are experiencing.
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Old 05-03-2016, 01:38 AM
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TTSH,
Yes, the fitment of later followers in the 659 mag seems unlikely, but it is the situation. To clarify, they can be forced in the mag bottom, but then removing them becomes quite tricky. This makes them a bad choice for long term use. The orange followers I have came from Midway as S&W OE. I was unaware of the orange 9mm followers being used on anything other than 3rd gen 5900's, but that could be my lack of knowledge. I have still more followers and springs coming, so I believe this will eventually come to a happy ending.
all the best to you and yours, fuzzy
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:52 AM
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TTSH,
Yes, the fitment of later followers in the 659 mag seems unlikely, but it is the situation. To clarify, they can be forced in the mag bottom, but then removing them becomes quite tricky. This makes them a bad choice for long term use. The orange followers I have came from Midway as S&W OE. I was unaware of the orange 9mm followers being used on anything other than 3rd gen 5900's, but that could be my lack of knowledge. I have still more followers and springs coming, so I believe this will eventually come to a happy ending.
all the best to you and yours, fuzzy
It certainly sounds like you got the right ones. Once past the bottom tube opening and indents, do they move freely? If so, then I don't see a problem. You can always push them out from the top, right? Or am I missing something?
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Old 05-05-2016, 12:07 AM
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Believe me, don't believe me, I don't really care. You asked for help and I tried to help. I'm done with the thread and with you. Life it too short...
" I " didn't ask you for anything. You have me confused with someone that give a darn. I answered the post the the best of my ability. honestly and factually.

Hearsay, rumors and opinions are not facts.

PS: I see you caught the mistake and realize I did not author this post.

Like Dad used to say: Opinions are like ah-es (holes). Everybody has one and none of them smell good. If it's not factually provable, it's BS, hearsay, a rumor or an opinion. Never bet your life on that stuff. My 5906 has FACTORY Mags only ... one in (with one more in the pipe) and 2 spares for when I travel.
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:46 PM
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TT,
Actually, the followers won't come out at the top because the bottom of the follower is wider than the feed lips. Yes, they do move freely in the mag body, that does not seem to be the problem. The problem is that neither end of the wolff spring fits squarely in the bottom of the follower, so the springs stacks too early, at least that is part of the problem. See, I told you this was going to get reeeeeally boring. My apologies for dragging y'all through this.
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Old 05-05-2016, 10:18 PM
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TT,
Actually, the followers won't come out at the top because the bottom of the follower is wider than the feed lips. Yes, they do move freely in the mag body, that does not seem to be the problem. The problem is that neither end of the wolff spring fits squarely in the bottom of the follower, so the springs stacks too early, at least that is part of the problem. See, I told you this was going to get reeeeeally boring. My apologies for dragging y'all through this.
fuzzy
Oh, I understand that the followers can't come out the top. I meant to poke them out the bottom by inserting a pencil (or equal) from the top and pushing them down and out the bottom where you say they are getting stuck.

As I said, the Wolff spring part of the problem I can't help you with. I don't have any.

My old Model 59 and Model 459 magazines are buried deep in "cold, dead storage" right now where I can't access them for the next week or so. I had hoped to duplicate your problem this week using an old magazine body and a brand new orange follower. Best I can do now is sometime next week.
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Old 05-05-2016, 10:50 PM
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It's not boring at all. Most of us here like to help other 3rd Gen owners with issues like this.

FWIW, I've never seen a follower that would come out through the top. It wouldn't really make sense for that to happen because the follower would just pop up when the last round was fired and jam the action.

Can you post a picture or two of the Wolff and OEM springs? That might help us to see what the problem is and be able to suggest some ideas to help work through the problem.



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TT,
Actually, the followers won't come out at the top because the bottom of the follower is wider than the feed lips. Yes, they do move freely in the mag body, that does not seem to be the problem. The problem is that neither end of the wolff spring fits squarely in the bottom of the follower, so the springs stacks too early, at least that is part of the problem. See, I told you this was going to get reeeeeally boring. My apologies for dragging y'all through this.
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Old 05-08-2016, 05:20 AM
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My old Model 59 and Model 459 magazines are buried deep in "cold, dead storage" right now where I can't access them for the next week or so. I had hoped to duplicate your problem this week using an old magazine body and a brand new orange follower.
Okay, I finally pulled out some older Model 59/459 magazines and now I see the problem Fuzzy is talking about. The older magazines with the metal floorplates have bottom tabs that are too long to let the followers pass by them without a struggle. Tabs on the new plastic baseplate magazines are shorter and allow the followers, new or old, to drop out freely.

The followers can be forced past the long tabs with a little effort when inserting them... but taking them back out again is kind of a pain in the butt. Simply pushing them out with an inverted pencil (as I had previously suggested) is not likely to do the trick unless you are willing to risk damaging the followers or perhaps bending the tabs. I didn't try applying oil. That might have helped.

It would appear that a permanent solution (if desired) might be to shorten the tabs slightly on those old magazine bodies with a little careful and judicious filing... or, probably better, take a tiny bit of plastic off the inside of the follower's rear "legs" to help them get past the longer tabs.

It's not enough of a problem for me to do either... but I could see where Fuzzy's particular situation in California might be improved with a little very careful modification to either the tabs or to the follower rear legs.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:05 PM
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Default YES! TTSH, you got it.

I just figured this out the other day but have been too busy to post. That's exactly the problem, and yes, I did dremel the follower legs to make them fit. But there's more!

See pictures of OEM springs. I had these in stock from time ago. They were in S&W bags and my notes indicate they were direct from S&W. What's with these? Coil bunches at both ends? One bunch is wide, will fit some funky metal followers I have and one end is narrow and will fit orange followers. However, mag will only hold 9 rounds when assembled. I guess we are supposed to cut off one set of bunches. This is crazy.
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Old 07-10-2016, 04:18 PM
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Oh yes, one more thing. I have grandfathered high cap bodies that I can't buy in California.
fuzzy
I see possible trouble in your horizon. JB just signed into law a bill that prohibits mags in excess - even if they were grandfathered in. I hope you're not in the state of California, but even if not, if you live in a state that's outlawed high cap mags, it might only be a matter of time before they follow Jerry's path.

BTW: Not doubting your comment on having trouble with Meggar mags, but I've always had great luck with them and consider them on par with any factory mags. I wonder if during the period of time before the old national 10 year ban on high capacity mags, their quality dropped while they were trying to meet demand and you got a bad batch?
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Old 07-10-2016, 04:22 PM
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Those mag springs pictured with the coiled up ends are typical for my 59xx 10 rounders.

I also have replaced similar coiled up mag springs in my 4004 10 rounders with wolf springs and they have functioned without issue. Never replaced any 59xx mag springs with wolf springs but think they will function fine with the current new followers.

I have no experience with the 59 mags and followers (old vs new).
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:53 PM
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I just figured this out the other day but have been too busy to post. That's exactly the problem, and yes, I did dremel the follower legs to make them fit. But there's more!

See pictures of OEM springs. I had these in stock from time ago. They were in S&W bags and my notes indicate they were direct from S&W. What's with these? Coil bunches at both ends? One bunch is wide, will fit some funky metal followers I have and one end is narrow and will fit orange followers. However, mag will only hold 9 rounds when assembled. I guess we are supposed to cut off one set of bunches. This is crazy.
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Those are the S&W OEM springs for the S&W 10-round crippled 5900-series magazines, of course. Mine look just like yours. I'm not surprised that you are are having trouble after just 9 rounds. Not sure what to do about that and still stay legal in your state. I don't normally use 10-round crippled magazines and even when I do I don't fully load them anyway. They are range magazines only in my world.

One point: I don't know your laws but in my moonbat state putting a 10-round OEM spring in a 15-round post-ban or ban-period tube would not keep me legal.
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Old 07-10-2016, 06:04 PM
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I see possible trouble in your horizon. JB just signed into law a bill that prohibits mags in excess - even if they were grandfathered in. I hope you're not in the state of California, but even if not, if you live in a state that's outlawed high cap mags, it might only be a matter of time before they follow Jerry's path.
I believe the OP did say in was in CA. So the next obvious question is going to be: Can he convert those 14-round and 15-round 5900-series magazines to 10-round post-Jerry CA-legal magazines with just a spring change? I'm guessing not.

Last edited by TTSH; 07-10-2016 at 06:06 PM. Reason: add clarity...
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Old 07-10-2016, 07:21 PM
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I believe the OP did say in was in CA. So the next obvious question is going to be: Can he convert those 14-round and 15-round 5900-series magazines to 10-round post-Jerry CA-legal magazines with just a spring change? I'm guessing not.
I don't know, nor do I know how soon it takes effect. Why they went after pre-ban mags is pure lunacy, but hey, that's California.
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:05 PM
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I don't know, nor do I know how soon it takes effect. Why they went after pre-ban mags is pure lunacy, but hey, that's California.
The new CA hi-cap magazine prohibition law takes effect in one year (July 2017). At least that's what I read. Good luck getting folks to turn in their property without any compensation. This will be interesting to watch.
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Old 07-10-2016, 10:56 PM
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The new CA hi-cap magazine prohibition law takes effect in one year (July 2017). At least that's what I read. Good luck getting folks to turn in their property without any compensation. This will be interesting to watch.
I can see a lot of Cali. high cap mags befalling tragic boating accidents
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:42 PM
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Thanks again guys. Yes, I am aware of the new law. I will simply be moving my hi caps to my second home out of Kali. Wow, I was really surprised to find y'all were aware of these springs, because my S&W OEM 10 rounders do not have these springs in them. I have never seen them before. I will have to pull one apart to see how they are limited because i simply don't remember. BTW, I found some Wolff +5% mag springs I had and they seem to work fine, so I may be in good shape for the time being. Regarding the Megars, they are fine magazines, but I just don't like the long plastic base. Shortening the mag body causes very high spring tension when loaded, very light when only a round or two left. This can causing cycle timing issues that can be problematic when tuning the gun to run lighter loads with lighter recoil springs.
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:26 AM
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Wow, I was really surprised to find y'all were aware of these springs, because my S&W OEM 10 rounders do not have these springs in them. I have never seen them before. I will have to pull one apart to see how they are limited because i simply don't remember.
Interesting. Maybe I should check all of my S&W 5900-series 10-rounders to see where I stand. The funky springs could have been a late addition to the already crimped magazine tubes (designed to limit follower movement range). Perhaps some lawyer or regulator told S&W that the crimped tubes alone were not enough to assure the magazines would be AWB legal?

It also raises the question about maybe replacing the funky springs with normal 14- and 15-round springs? Would that solve the 9-round dilemma and still be legal in the loony moonbat states? You would think that the crimped tube and 10-round witness holes would be enough on their own to satisfy most cops and prosecutors, but who knows?
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:39 PM
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TTSH,
Regarding the springs, that is yet another somewhat problematic area. Forgive me if I am repeating myself, but the S&W parts rep told me that the funky springs are for both the low cap and hi cap mags. I find this hard to believe. The Wolffs I have are a bit wider (I actually checked with caliper) than OE springs out of my 5903 factory hi cap mags. This causes them to bind a bit up under the factory orange follower. Will the madness ever end?
fuzzy
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Old 07-15-2016, 08:47 AM
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TTSH,
Regarding the springs, that is yet another somewhat problematic area. Forgive me if I am repeating myself, but the S&W parts rep told me that the funky springs are for both the low cap and hi cap mags. I find this hard to believe. The Wolffs I have are a bit wider (I actually checked with caliper) than OE springs out of my 5903 factory hi cap mags. This causes them to bind a bit up under the factory orange follower. Will the madness ever end?
fuzzy
The information you got is wrong. Here is a normal full-capacity 5906 magazine spring:



The funky spring is clearly for capacity-limited magazines only.

As far as the Wolff springs being too wide, I can't help you there. My only experience with Wolff magazine springs was on some 10mm magazines that I eventually sold off to pay down debt. I did not detect any tightness or binding... but then again, I wasn't actually loading and using them in a pistol. They were just in the reserve magazine stash for a possible future acquisition.

I did notice that Wolff makes two different strength springs for the 5906 magazines... a +5% and a +10%. Still shouldn't have made any difference, but who knows.

I see that new S&W 5906 springs are not available from the usual on-line suspects. I'd try S&W CS again. They have been good to me lately, although it usually takes more than one call to get to someone who really knows what they are doing and can get you the right parts you need.
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Old 07-17-2016, 03:07 PM
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TTSH,
Thanks for hanging in there so long on this subject. Yes, I broke open a relatively current 5903/50906 mag and found that spring in there. I will call S&W again and have them re-check. Once I get the OE springs, that should be the end of this interesting project.

On the 10mm, I also have a couple of the tens, thank God I thought ahead to buy plenty of mags long ago. I also have tried the Wollf +5% in the factory mag and they fit just fine. Have not shot when yet, but will try in the future.

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Old 07-18-2016, 11:30 AM
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TTSH,
Thanks for hanging in there so long on this subject. Yes, I broke open a relatively current 5903/50906 mag and found that spring in there. I will call S&W again and have them re-check. Once I get the OE springs, that should be the end of this interesting project.

On the 10mm, I also have a couple of the tens, thank God I thought ahead to buy plenty of mags long ago. I also have tried the Wollf +5% in the factory mag and they fit just fine. Have not shot when yet, but will try in the future.

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All the best, fuzzy

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