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Old 05-15-2016, 09:59 PM
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Default Model 39 barrel bushing

Does anyone know if there is more than one barrel bushing for the Model 39 (nothing)? I bought one from Numrich ; it looks identical to the one that came with the pistol, but it won't engage the slide enough to line up the hole for the guide rod with the slide. I tried persuading it with a plastic hammer, but no go.
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Old 05-15-2016, 11:14 PM
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The only variation I know of is the one for the later 39-2s, which has two spurs on the botrtom like a M1911 bushing. I suggest you return it to Numrich and tell them exacly why it won't fit. Perhaps they'll be able to send you one that will. My one experience with the Numrich return system was very positive.
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Old 05-15-2016, 11:56 PM
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IIRC the two variations are the early style fully enclosed bushing that captures the recoil spring and guide rod and the later horseshoe shaped ones that rely on a cut in the slide to capture the rod and spring,

I have run into instances when a spare bushings lug did not fit or turn in smoothly so they may also require a little hand fitting.
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Old 05-16-2016, 08:49 AM
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I have 4 39's and there was one (can't remember which one without looking) that the bushing was not a good fit. I fixed it with a little sanding...didn't take much.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:15 AM
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Cyrano, Engine 49 Guy & Ihump 1961, thanks for the info. My 39 is serial #83xxx, so maybe I need to do a bit of sanding as Ihump 1961 suggested.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:39 PM
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I bought a Model 39 bushing from Numrich a few weeks ago. It had to be fit on both the outside diameter but by filing the locking lug too. Numrich contracts some parts and notes they are manufactured by NAC. Although they didn't show the barrel bushing as a NAC part I am sure it was. The plate portion of the bushing is significantly thinner than the original S&W part! And the bluing wore off just handling it enough to fit it to the slide!
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:23 PM
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Thanks, Alk8944
I think that my locking lug is too thick; I've been filing it down with an ignition file, but no luck so far.
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Old 05-17-2016, 03:36 AM
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Oh, does my head ever hurt, especially when I hear someone say a hammer was used in a (usually) failed attempt to accomplish something like seating a slide stop.

A proper slide stop alignment should result in it sliding in and out as if a knife cutting through butter.

Okay, maybe not as easily, but it really shouldn't be far from it.

But, like Cyrano (and I do like Cyrano; an upstanding, knowledgeable sort not given to Chicken Little actions), the only barrel bushing mods of which I'm aware date to the later Model 39-2 and its double-stack derivative, the Model 59, and which continued for as long as the eye could see. Or something like that.

Indeed, if memory serves (and it does less and less of it nowadays because I'm an official Old Guy), the "horseshoe" (thanks to EngineGuy49, I think I'll use that particular description unto the grave) became so popular that 39 and 59 owners did and will abandon a fitted barrel bushing in favor of the "horseshoe" only to blame something else for the gun's sudden inaccuracy or jamming of the barrel, recoil rod and etc.

"It didn't do it before. And I don't understand why it all-of-a-sudden decided to start jamming."

Well, while it may have even formerly shot a five-round pattern covered by a quarter at 25 feet, "the gun" doesn't decide a darn thing. It's the human that'll do so and then blame the gun.

What a life.

In what I surmise as a cost-cutting move (multiply 100,000 barrel bushings by a little less metal and one starts talking real money) Smith & Wesson doubtfully conceived of the change as having as much "cool factor" as it has. Indeed, I didn't even see it coming and I was once sure I had "future vision."

But, given the angst expressed herein, I went to the safe and pulled out the box having a 439, 459, 539, 559 and etc. (nine guns, total), each having a horseshoe and each fitting the guide rod and, as importantly, the barrel which passed through each.

I dunno, but those who are sanding might want to find a good ol' Arkansas honing stone and then continue the whittling of the replacement bushing. But you might also search YouTube for some of Bluebelly2's
content and see if you might find something he's done with the bushing. Note that I don't know that he for-sure has posted something, but if such be the case it'll be high quality and an incredibly inexpensive teaching tool.

I've learned a bunch from Bluebelly and that despite the moniker (I'm a Southerner whose forefathers hurled more than a few "bluebelly" insults, invective, or more, at Yankee invaders).

Whatever the course of action: "good luck!"

Later.
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Old 05-17-2016, 07:55 AM
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DCW, I'm pretty sure that the 39-2 has a different slide than the 39 (nothing) and that if you install a horseshoe bushing in a 39 (nothing) slide, you will see part of the guide rod spring.
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Old 05-17-2016, 08:35 AM
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As stated above using the horseshoe in a slide made for a fully enclosed bushing is a No No.

The fully enclosed bushing ( used on the Pre 39 , 39 no dash and Model 39-2's made until around 1973 or 74) captures the guide rod spring,
Notice in the pic the guide rod hole is large enough that rod and spring will pass through the front of the slide with the bushing removed (Basicly unnecessary since the 39 has a solid guide rod and does not break down like a 1911).
The early design bushing is thinner and since it retains the spring it also bears its full force during recoil.
More importantly if the bushing is bent or broken it can render the gun inoperative and therefore is a weaker design IMO.

The "Horseshoe" style (Top in pic) also has a new smaller guide rod "Hole" cut in the slide ,
The new design uses the thick metal of the slide to capture the guide rod spring at the muzzle and the horseshoe shape simply prevents the bushing from rotating left or right with the guide rod in place.


Interestingly the removable barrel bushing was eliminated in my 3rd gen compact 9 utilizing a fluted barrel system instead.



On a side note there are two other designs that S&W used that Im aware of,
The Model 52 bushing which screwed in with a spring loaded stopper making it adjustable


and the later Briley brass swivel bushing found on many Performance center autos.

Last edited by Engine49guy; 05-17-2016 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:57 AM
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Excellent, Engine49guy!
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:17 AM
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Engine49guy, thanks for the info. I was issued my 39 (nothing) in the IL state police academy in 1968. I was allowed to buy it when the ISP replaced it with the 439 around 1980. My final ISP sidearm before I retired was the S&W 5904 (1989?). I went looking for a 5904 at a local gun show recently, and ended up buying a 659 when no one had a 5904 for sale.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:49 AM
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DCW, I just took the time to watch the video that you posted above...it was very interesting & informative. Thanks for the info.
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Old 05-17-2016, 11:09 AM
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FWIW, my Model 59 from 1976 has the Full Style Bushing like the early 39's.
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Old 05-17-2016, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJO1425 View Post
DCW, I'm pretty sure that the 39-2 has a different slide than the 39 (nothing) and that if you install a horseshoe bushing in a 39 (nothing) slide, you will see part of the guide rod spring.
Having written my first contribution to this thread in the morning's wee hours after a long, long day at work, it wouldn't be unusual for this author to err.

Nor, as he has found while amassing his 42-gun "39" collection, have others been disinclined of erring, too; some having used a "horseshoe" barrel bushing on a no-no 39 despite the recoil rod spring's more than obvious appearance.

Laughable is a resultant "the action doesn't work very well, anymore," while witnessed is an owner/user's complete disassociation with cause and effect. Such being obliquely mentioned, as well, in my rant of earlier today.

Nevertheless, in a re-read of what had been written it appears my broader reference to the "39 and 59 owners" was interpreted as a specific reference rather than in an intended broader context - speaking to the 39 line as a whole.

General references absent of engineering change distinctions are found in many reference materials across many lines, including the vaunted "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson," Third Edition and P.J. Fjestad's 37th "Blue Book of Gun Values," two of this writer's more-favored references. (Betcha no one could tell.)

Many references entirely omit engineering-change distinctions, stating only written atrocities along the lines of "the Model 39 was manufactured from 1958 to 1981," which is just plain wrong on a couple of fronts, huh?

Furthermore, this author's "59" reference in the same sentence as the "39" should've been entirely omitted, inasmuch as a reader could intone the 59, too, once shared the same barrel bushing design found in the "no-no" Model 39.

Indeed, such speaks to one of firearms' weakest points of overall reference, in that the Smith & Wesson "1911" differs markedly across its own line, not to mention the differences between it and the 1911 lines of still other manufacturers.

Yet, they all are generally referred to as a "1911," no matter when made or, even, by which manufacturer.

Smith & Wesson's durable Model 10 is yet another example of a model's singular reference, despite 14 engineering changes made to date.

PJ01425, I could've done better and appreciate your pointing to the weaknesses of my thought line and therefore providing an opportunity at clarification.

English is an amazing language. It is not the language of science, commerce and in many other arenas of discourse because "we American's" forced it on others.

Instead, it is the chosen language of general world discourse because of its specificity. The pilot flying me to France speaks English when landing at Paris' Orly Airport, just as he does when departing Tokyo.

I'll endeavor to better utilize our rich tongue no matter the time of day - and I appreciate your bringing that need to my attention, "PJ."

Later.
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Old 05-17-2016, 01:20 PM
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LOL DCW, it's obvious to me that you know a lot more about S&W semi-autos than I do, and I appreciate your input. My experience has been largely limited to shooting & cleaning them. I thought it would be a good idea a while back to pick up a spare barrel bushing...in doing some research I was shocked to find that Model 39 parts are scarce; how could parts for a pistol that I was (seemingly) issued just yesterday become scarce overnight? ...it turns out that "just yesterday" was 47 years ago...
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Old 05-17-2016, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtnfolk325 View Post
FWIW, my Model 59 from 1976 has the Full Style Bushing like the early 39's.
Out of curiosity I pulled my highest 59 with an enclosed bushing at serial A-265338 shipped Oct 1975 so appears the change may be closer to late 1975 to early 1976,

Wondering what your serial is around to maybe narrow it down a bit, Also does it have the large or smaller guide rod hole ?

Reason im asking is Rule no# 1 with S&W is Anything is possible with S&W and sometimes the parts guys stumbled on a cache of old parts ,
IIRC using an enclosed bushing in a small hole slide intended for a horseshoe bushing will have no adverse affect that Im aware of ,
The problem occurs when using the new horseshoe style on the older frames intended to use the fully enclosed bushing.

On a side note the Model revision system can be a bit confusing and is complicated by the fact that S&W did not use a new revision number with every single manufacturing , engineering or part change , In other words there are changes throughout most S&W models that had no resulting revision change,

Besides the barrel bushing and guide rod hole diameter change early 39 / 39-2 safety levers did not initially have enough clearance for the wider model 59 frame introduced in 1971 so those early 59 frames required machining below the lever to clear the 39's tightly spaced safety lever,
At some point early on the engineers realized by changing the spacing of the safety lever so it stuck out a bit more it would clear the wider 59 frame and eliminate the extra machining steps ,
For this reason a Model 39-2 or 59 slide made in 1971 will not fit on Model 59 frame made in 1976 without replacing the safety lever with the new wider spaced lever.

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Old 05-17-2016, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJO1425 View Post
LOL DCW, it's obvious to me that you know a lot more about S&W semi-autos than I do, and I appreciate your input. My experience has been largely limited to shooting & cleaning them. I thought it would be a good idea a while back to pick up a spare barrel bushing...in doing some research I was shocked to find that Model 39 parts are scarce; how could parts for a pistol that I was (seemingly) issued just yesterday become scarce overnight? ...it turns out that "just yesterday" was 47 years ago...
Wondering if your ISP Model 39 has the special "Two piece" wide staked extractor like this


or if its a standard one piece wide extractor like this:

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Old 05-17-2016, 03:34 PM
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" Wondering what your serial is around to maybe narrow it down a bit, Also does it have the large or smaller guide rod hole ? "

Mine is A3313xx, it has the smaller hole. Hope that helps.
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Old 05-17-2016, 04:23 PM
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Engine49guy, my 39 (nothing) has the two piece extractor, but it may have been modified at some point by the ISP armorers, can't remember after 40 some years...I think that some of the troopers after my cadet class were issued 39-2s. ispcapt (a member of this forum) has posted some good info on ISP semi-autos, also on ISP issued ammo (from 1968 to 1993, when I retired, we were issued 8 different 9 mm rounds, starting with FMJ and proceeding to the +P+ that we carried in our 5904s.
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Old 05-17-2016, 04:25 PM
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Mtnfolk325, the serial # on my 39 (nothing) is 83xxx...it has the large guide rod hole.
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Old 05-18-2016, 12:25 PM
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"A3313xx, has the smaller hole." My Model 59 from Oct 75 Serial A265338 also has the smaller guide rod hole as does my early 39-2 Serial A194274 that Shipped May 1973 ,
I had always assumed the smaller guide rod hole and new horse shoe bushing design were two design improvements that were implemented simultaneously,
Based on the above observations It looks more like they were two seperate changes implemented several years apart, Makes sense as well since the the older bushing design appears to be a stamped piece of steel that is machined into shape then pressed onto a cast bushing where the newer horseshoe shaped bushing appears to be one solid cast piece making it simpler to manufacture with less steps, the newer style is also a much looser fit which no doubt required less hand fitting where the older style is a very tight fit .



Quote:
Originally Posted by PJO1425 View Post
Engine49guy, my 39 (nothing) has the two piece extractor, but it may have been modified at some point by the ISP armorers, can't remember after 40 some years...I think that some of the troopers after my cadet class were issued 39-2s. ispcapt (a member of this forum) has posted some good info on ISP semi-autos, also on ISP issued ammo (from 1968 to 1993, when I retired, we were issued 8 different 9 mm rounds, starting with FMJ and proceeding to the +P+ that we carried in our 5904s.
Im not an ISP 39 expert but IIRC ISP was instrumental in helping S&W identify weak points in the Model 39's design and the two piece extractor is fairly exclusive to the ISP weapons (Perhaps Connecticut State Police as well ?) also not sure if they were modified at S&W or if it was an in house ISP mod, either way they are neat guns that bridged the gap until the 39-2 improvement,
On a side note there was another extractor design that briefly appeared in the Mid 80s 439/539 series that are sometimes found with a short fat extractor, theory is S&W was going for a US Military contract and changed the design to pass field trials that never occurred.

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Old 05-18-2016, 12:45 PM
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Engine49guy, ispcapt knows more about ISP S&W semi-autos than I do...my cadet class (Sept. '68) was the 2nd or 3rd to receive the 39...no big deal to me as I was 3 months out of the Army & had carried a Colt .45 1911 (not an a1) that I had taken with me to 'Nam in late 1965...my ISP field training officer was pissed when he had to stop carrying his Python & start carrying the 39...
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:53 AM
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Default Extractors . . .

Quote:
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Wondering if your ISP Model 39 has the special "Two piece" wide staked extractor like this


or if its a standard one piece wide extractor like this:
I've actually got both (well, one M39 with the "split" - which was the repair for the supposed extractor problems - and two-or-so-dozen 39s with the full-length extractor.

A couple years back I picked up a slide with the "split" because I just wished to see exactly how "the fix" had been accomplished but realized in the last few weeks (taking inventory) that I'd yet to break it down - along with a few 100,000 other things I would've liked to accomplish for fun.

And I'll have no more of the: "you know more than me" stuff. While I appreciate the compliment, 49, I'm stupid as compared to where I'd like to be, for sure. And while I may have a boat load of 39s such means only one sure thing: I like 'em. I'll be darned if I can't learn something new from anyone, anytime. K?

But, recalling one of my "split" thoughts: It most likely served as S&W's entree to the eventual 39-2 extractor. Short, with the spring just inside of the cut and, of course, a pivot between the cut and the business end of the extractor.

It should be no secret that I'm a big fan of that long extractor, the lines of which on the slide makes for an elegant mechanism.

I've extensively researched that one aspect and I've long reached the conclusion that the breakage occurred with a single round's insertion from above (to reach the 8+1 capacity) as opposed to loading from below via the magazine, thus subjecting the extractor to less stress.

While I'd love to take the credit for such finding, it actually came from a period article in Guns And Ammo in which the Illinois State Police's chief armorer stated such belief after massive efforts in the test alone at forcing an extractor break were unsuccessful.

Without running to my notes (because a doctor's visit calls, along with other matters), I believe that ILSP armorer or a contemporary deduced that loading from above stresses the extractor each time but that the breakage occurs only after numerous improper round insertions - put another way: the extractor "breaks" just a little each time. When actually occurring - remember, that long extractor was a spring, itself - the breakage, of course, looks to be spontaneous in nature but, rather, is climactic instead, releasing the full extent of its kinetic energy.

In ancillary, similar studies conducted on a number of pistol models, it seems manufacturers have little taste for loading a semi-auto in any manner than from a slide for the same reason.

I'm doing a thoroughly annotated piece on the deal, but it's having to be done in free time, of which I have little. I can only hope it gets done before I croak.

Best to you, 49.

Later.
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