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  #1  
Old 07-16-2016, 01:22 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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Default M41 Performance Centre, QC issues ?

Hi Guys, just after your opinion on these couple of photos of my M14 PC.
Irregular wear on the breech block, where it slides over the hammer.
Poor machining on the inside surface of the slide.

Should I be concerned ? Or am I just being fussy ?




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  #2  
Old 07-16-2016, 07:24 AM
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Tough call. I'm sure S&W would say it's normal but it would make me upset. Now I have to go look at mine.
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Old 07-16-2016, 07:59 AM
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Once I get the barrel replaced, I might do a bit of "blue-printing" "tuning" and "Polishing" myself.
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Old 07-16-2016, 07:17 PM
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I would be upset with my 41 also if it was displaying marks like that especially for what they cost nowadays. Yes I would also call S&W to speak to them about replacing it for sure.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
I would be upset with my 41 also if it was displaying marks like that especially for what they cost nowadays. Yes I would also call S&W to speak to them about replacing it for sure.
x2. I would give S&W a call or send them some pics.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:19 PM
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My 1998 M41 doesn't show that wear pattern on the inner slide/frame side wear.
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:30 AM
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If you are unhappy, call them and send it back. If it functions, they may do nothing. They aren't too concerned with the cosmetic finish of the non-visible internals if the gun works.

They sure don't make 'em like they used to, but I am afraid, if they did, few of us could afford them!
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:15 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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That "mark" on the inside of the slide is actually a raised area of metal, like that face was not finished off properly from machining.
The pistol works very very well ( if you don't count the bullet tumbling issue)
I've put at least a 1000 rounds ( CCI standard ) thru it and would have had a max of 6 FTF, FTE.
So it is a very reliable firearm.
My concerns are that for a "premium grade" pistol, the finish in some areas is down right amature.
I also have a Sig P226 x5 L1 and the fit and finish on it is amazing.
Just what I would expect from a premium grade pistol.

It's like comparing a new S class Mercedes Benz with a 1976 Pinto ..........

How is it that a premium grade S&W pistol can have these issues ??
Living in Australia does not help as the distributor does not even have stock.
I have been waiting for a replacement barrel ( tumbling issue ) for nearly 8 months now..... still waiting.
So the thought of sending it back "state side" sort of worries me time frame wise.

When the replacement barrel arrives, I will be sending the complete pistol to the distributor ( Grycol ) for assessment.
Pretty sure I know what the will say.......
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:19 AM
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I think that with the aging and retiring and dying of S&W's old fitters and finishers, just about nothing they make now is guaranteed to be right when they ship it. The Performance Center isn't what is used to be, either. It used to build guns way above normal production standards but now, it seems they just make unusual variants of their standard products with non-standard features and call it good.

I know it's aggravating when an expensive product arrives in less-than-expected condition, especially in your case, where returning it to the factory is so difficult. I hope you find a solution.

Are you aware that when you type, you don't have an Australian accent?
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:59 PM
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"Are you aware that when you type, you don't have an Australian accent? "

And your American accent is quite subdued as well !
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:01 AM
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But I hear what you are saying.
I guess it would be easier to buy a new slide and breech ( and barrel while I am at it )
Then completely strip the frame, de-burr and polish.
Reassemble and at least know that it is now a lovely gun.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:02 AM
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Shouldn't have too though........

I would expect it on a colt......... but I didn't buy a colt.....
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  #13  
Old 07-21-2016, 12:03 AM
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Dons flame proof suit and grabs pop-corn
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2016, 07:34 PM
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OK, I finally remembered to take mine out of the safe and look at it and it is showing no wear at all. To be honest I haven't shot it much, maybe 100 rounds, because I've been tied up on other projects, plus like many other parts of the nation it's been hot and sticky here. That stuff aside, your pistol definitely has issues.
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  #15  
Old 07-26-2016, 08:56 PM
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[QUOTE=leinster lad;139168221]Hi Guys, just after your opinion on these couple of photos of my M14 PC.
Irregular wear on the breech block, where it slides over the hammer.
Poor machining on the inside surface of the slide.

Should I be concerned ? Or am I just being fussy ?


After reading your comments I decided to have a quick look at mine. It certainly doesn't look as worn as your slide is. I agree with everyone else that you should get S&W on the phone about this issue.
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  #16  
Old 07-26-2016, 10:30 PM
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leinster lad
Sorry to read/see your 41 problems. Poorer work than I have seen in a while, especially out of the "Performance Center", but S&W 41 quality problems have been reported here and RFC on production for the last several years. Basically a lack of consistency as it appears to be a random problem - not piece after piece when the basic process fails. problems with barrels, slides, extractors, ejectors and mags tend to pop upon a routine basis. Apparently a whole batch of mags were run out of spec one time. As noted elsewhere, doubtful that cosmetic items will get attention, but failures should be corrected by the factory. Good luck!!!!
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  #17  
Old 10-17-2016, 10:56 PM
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***** UPDATE ****

So it looks like my replacement barrel has arrived in Aus ( only took 14 months )
Sent my M41 PC to the Aussie distributor yesterday.
Hopefully the new barrel is 100% and they can sort out the other QC issues that I have.

I'll keep you posted
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  #18  
Old 10-18-2016, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leinster lad View Post
***** UPDATE ****

So it looks like my replacement barrel has arrived in Aus ( only took 14 months )
Sent my M41 PC to the Aussie distributor yesterday.
Hopefully the new barrel is 100% and they can sort out the other QC issues that I have.

I'll keep you posted
14 months? Must have sent it by canoe!
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  #19  
Old 10-18-2016, 03:15 PM
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Default Army ignores S&W......

In today's news.....S&W was NOT asked by the US military to submit design for a new sidearm. Those that were selected were all foreign arms concerns. Quality being questioned?
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Old 10-19-2016, 06:35 PM
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In today's news.....S&W was NOT asked by the US military to submit design for a new sidearm. Those that were selected were all foreign arms concerns. Quality being questioned?
Naw, probably the Military wasn't interested in Model 41's. If they still made the Model 46, it might be a different story.
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  #21  
Old 10-20-2016, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom S. View Post
14 months? Must have sent it by canoe!
14 months is nothing. I had my brand new Model 41 sent back to the factory and it took 32 months before I got it back. They actually replaced the whole gun with another new one and the finish on the replacement was no good.

Last edited by jackrabbit000; 10-20-2016 at 12:18 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-11-2016, 08:43 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leinster lad View Post
***** UPDATE ****

So it looks like my replacement barrel has arrived in Aus ( only took 14 months )
Sent my M41 PC to the Aussie distributor yesterday.
Hopefully the new barrel is 100% and they can sort out the other QC issues that I have.

I'll keep you posted
Contacted the Aussie distributor yesterday asking about my M41 PC.

He must have skipped the "communication classes" at management school ........

Anyways, after some gentle prodding it appears that they have....

replaced the barrel ( didn't say what they found wrong with the original )

replaced the bolt ( didn't say why )

repaired the slide ( didn't say what or why )

Hopefully I can get some more detailed info, maybe a copy of the work sheet ??

Will be test fired next week and returned to my LGS.

Fingers crossed she will now shoot like she is meant to
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2016, 04:53 PM
BJ343 BJ343 is offline
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leinster, i'm also an aussie and have the same taste in pistols, and own a P226X5L1 and a M41
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  #24  
Old 12-02-2016, 01:16 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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Hey BJ343, you have good taste in pistols my friend
I have the P226X5L1 in 9mm and the M41 Performance Centre.
Both are sensational guns and shoot way way better than me !

Currently exploring the prototyping of an adapter plate that replaces the rear sight on the X5, to mount a little red dot ( Buriss FF 3 )

Anyways, for all of you who have been wondering about my M41 barrel saga......

I just got it back this morning !!!
and it is looking fine

New barrel, new bolt and extractor, and they have cleaned up the daggy machining on the slide really well.
No work report, so I really do not know what they found to be wrong / faulty.
Cannot fault their gun-smithing. top notch.
However..... they really do need to improve on their customer service / communication skills....
and with the ease of email etc these days, there really is no excuse.

Off to the range tomorrow.
Hopefully the new barrel shoots straight.

I'll let you all know !!
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:48 PM
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WE all have our fingers crossed for you and hope you have a really Nice Day to-morrow with your 41. If it shoots as good as it looks then I suspect you will be a Happy man for sure. Always nice to see a Happy ending. Merry Christmas also Mate from Canada as well.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:20 PM
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Odd, but there appears to be a line running down the center of the breech block, along the top. That implies it was cast to net shape, perhaps as a MIM part with no further machining on that surface. The recessed areas shown in your photo would correspond to areas of incomplete fill if this were the case. Can you verify whether the surface is not flat in that area?
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Old 12-03-2016, 12:52 AM
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That barrel and block assembly are back at a shop in Australia somewhere I believe as they have repaired his gun with new parts. I doubt he has access to them anymore.
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Old 12-03-2016, 11:56 PM
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So listeners.... the saga continues......

Went to the range and fitted my Burris FF3 onto the rail.
better sight it in before the comp right ?

So I set up a target table and sand bag on one of the practice ranges.

Loaded 3 rounds into a magazine and inserted.

Got settled and lined up the dot on the 10 ring.

Gently pressed the slide release lever to chamber the first round..........

Well, the round did not even get into the chamber ! *** ???

Cleared the pistol and had a look.
Looks like the tip of the projectile is getting caught on the top of the feed ramp..... hmmm......

Cleared the pistol and removed the barrel for better look.......

I believe the pictures below tell the whole story.

To,say that I am disappointed would be the understatement of the year.

What the actual flock ???
This is a BRAND NEW BARREL , a top of the line Performance Centre version as well.

Looks like it never made it to the machining / finishing department. Maybe they were in a hurry to ship it out to me ?









I waited 13 months to get this replacement barrel to the Aussie distributor.
I waited 3 weeks for them to "repair" it
I waited 3 more weeks while the found time to "test fire" it.

It then turned up at my gun shop without any word from them that it was on its way.

There is NO WAY that they even attempted to test fire, as it will not chamber a round.

I am lost for words...........................
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Old 12-03-2016, 11:59 PM
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Sure, I could just polish out the roughness and nip off that little lip at the top of the ramp, where it becomes the chamber.
Heck, I could even pay a local gun smith to do it....

I really do not know.

What I DO know is that I will contact S&W for a please explain.

At the moment, I am quite angry........
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Old 12-04-2016, 12:22 AM
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I am sorry to hear that now this has happened to you as well. That barrel could not have ever been anywhere's near the Quality control dept at all. Someones head should roll over this ridiculous mistake. This is very POOR Business dealings for sure.
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Old 12-04-2016, 12:37 AM
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I don't blame you for being angry. I would be livid.
Can you email the S&W factory customer service department?

Send a Message

Last edited by andyo5; 12-04-2016 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 12-04-2016, 12:52 AM
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andyo5 ...Drafting an email as we speak. I have their international managers direct email address....
I am hesitant to really give them a serve though, as I do not want a negative outcome.
But you are right Barrie, it looks like it never even got to the QC dept ( or the finishing shop ! )
The Aussie dealer ( who fitted the new barrel ) really should have known better...

looks like I should have brought a Pardini....

Anyone with a M41 , can you please look at the feed ramp and tell me if it is factory polished, or just finished nice and smooth ???
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Old 12-04-2016, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo5 View Post
Odd, but there appears to be a line running down the center of the breech block, along the top. That implies it was cast to net shape, perhaps as a MIM part with no further machining on that surface. The recessed areas shown in your photo would correspond to areas of incomplete fill if this were the case. Can you verify whether the surface is not flat in that area?
Hey @andyo5,
yep, it does look like a cast mark. I do not have it now to check further.
And yes, those dimples / divots etc were where metal was actually missing.
Something that would not happen on a machined piece of rolled steel, unless it was a particularly crappy piece of steel.

The new bolt does not have this line in it, looks and feels like a nice solid piece of steel.

Funny, because it almost looks like the barrel is cast as well.
Its un-machined surfaces look like an old 350 chevy engine block !!!

Actually, upon closer inspection it maybe a surface finish that they do, like glass bead blasting or some such.
Does not excuse the fact that the breech face and feed ramp on the barrel should have been machined and polished.
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Old 12-04-2016, 03:47 AM
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Not sure what this crud is around the rear sight dove tail. Almost looks like rust ?
Got a brush to it and got most of it off.

Could it be some sort of rosin or loctite compound to secure the rear sight ???



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  #35  
Old 12-04-2016, 04:14 AM
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And this is how the bullet tries to load into the
chamber, and the damage done to the projectile.



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  #36  
Old 12-04-2016, 08:27 AM
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Here's a picture of the barrel from my PC. Looks much like yours and functions fine:




Sorry I couldn't get a better angle but with a scope on, this is the best I can do.
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  #37  
Old 12-04-2016, 08:43 AM
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Here's a pic of non-PC barrel, but a S&W barrel none the less:




As you can see, the barrel still has the step, but there is a slight chamfer on the leading edge on both of the barrels that is missing on yours. Hope that helps!
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Last edited by Tom S.; 12-04-2016 at 08:44 AM.
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  #38  
Old 12-04-2016, 10:23 AM
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jackrabbit000 jackrabbit000 is offline
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Originally Posted by leinster lad View Post
Not sure what this crud is around the rear sight dove tail. Almost looks like rust ?
Got a brush to it and got most of it off.

Could it be some sort of rosin or loctite compound to secure the rear sight ???



That looks like rust to me. S&W quality and QC is almost non-existant. Man, I know exactly how you feel right now. I'll send you a PM on the problems I had on a new 41. I don't want to hijack your thread.
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  #39  
Old 12-04-2016, 04:08 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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I just checked both of mine, 41 and a 46 and they are polished on the face of the feed ramp. I would not hesitate to let the Big shots know about this problem as the factory is not going to get any better unless folks Scream like heck There is no excuse for this at all with what this product costs and the time delay is also extremely POOR SERVICE also. I personally would ask for the Pres of the Company and give him a earful. He can speed things up and have the job done correctly for you which he should do.
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  #40  
Old 12-04-2016, 07:50 PM
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I personally would ask for the Pres of the Company and give him a earful. He can speed things up and have the job done correctly for you which he should do.
Good luck with that. Besides the time difference and the cost of calling from Oz, presidents have secretaries who intercept such calls with "Sorry, he's busy" or "Sorry, he's at lunch" or any of a dozen other excuses. It is extremely rare for a president of a major company to respond in person to phone calls.
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  #41  
Old 12-04-2016, 08:00 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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A Good Pres of any Company will listen to any and all calls wether good or bad. Its the true way of knowing whats really going on within his company. If he's worth anything at all in his job then he should take this ph call for sure. I spent 7 years working in a big office for a major corp as the big guys chauffer. A Good leader wants to know what is going on as its his job to be on top of all problems like this especially when they take so long to resolve. This is something the stock holders should demand.
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  #42  
Old 12-04-2016, 08:43 PM
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I have been following this thread for a while, and I just got my model 41 out to take a closer look at it. Mine is a 2007, and not a PC model. Of course mine is a matte finish model, but the barrel on my pistol does look significantly different that the one that you are showing. By the way, your photos are very good and make it very easy for you to tell your story to S&W. Whatever standard Smith & Wesson has set for their handguns, the fit and finish of the model 41 should be at the higher end of that standard, and I think your photos speak volumes as to why you would feel that you have been short changed. I will continue to follow your thread to see how S&W addresses your issues.
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  #43  
Old 12-04-2016, 10:01 PM
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A Good Pres of any Company will listen to any and all calls wether good or bad. Its the true way of knowing whats really going on within his company. If he's worth anything at all in his job then he should take this ph call for sure. I spent 7 years working in a big office for a major corp as the big guys chauffer. A Good leader wants to know what is going on as its his job to be on top of all problems like this especially when they take so long to resolve. This is something the stock holders should demand.
We all know how we'd like things to be, but I'm telling you how they are.
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  #44  
Old 12-05-2016, 12:00 AM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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So I sent quite a big email yesterday to the Aussie Distributor with all the pictures etc., and cc'd in the S&W international manager and her assistant.
I got my daughter to proof read it to make sure that I was not abusive or disrespectful in any way.
Was all good.

No response as yet from S&W, but they are on weekend break so I am not that worried.
I know they will get back to me soon as we have been in fairly close contact all the way thru this.

I did receive a reply from the Aus dist. this morn.
Apparently while he was busy attending to family matters, a subordinate at the company took it upon himself to send it back without test firing etc.
Somehow managing to fill out all the documents and comply with all the regulations regarding sending a firearm across state lines etc........

yeh right.

Sent it to the correct gun shop, but failed to include MY contact details.
The gun shop had no idea who it was for or why it was even delivered to their shop...

Lucky that it just so happened that a friend of mine was at the EXACT SHOP when it was delivered and heard the shop owners confusion etc when they opened the consignment.
He knew that I had sent mine away and that I was expecting it soon...... put 2 and 2 together and rang me.
We verified the serial numbers and yep, you guessed it, it was mine !



So anyway, they have decided to get a local smithy to sort it out at their expense.

Cool.

The real issue though is how the heck did an unfinished PC VERSION barrel manage to escape into the wild for a WARRANTY REPAIR for FAULTY BARREL ???

There should be a few heads rolling at S&W.!!!

Thanks for all your support guys, it is really appreciated.

I'll keep you informed as this saga unfolds
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2016, 07:12 AM
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There is a US army term to describe this whole ordeal, but we're not at liberty to use those terms here. It should take the local smith about 15 minutes (not counting tea time) to fix this for you and another 15 minutes to test and be awed by the accuracy. Good luck and keep us posted.
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  #46  
Old 12-05-2016, 12:56 PM
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I have attached two photos of my 1980s era M41 for you to use as comparison. Notice that there is a generous edge break into the chamber, the feed ramp is smooth and blued, and the surface of the fire control housing is machined smooth with an edge break at the rear, where it cocks the hammer. Some oil on the surface may obscure this, but it is quite smooth. It looks to me like your gun was assembled with some machining steps skipped. I can't imagine why they would do this.
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Last edited by andyo5; 12-05-2016 at 12:58 PM. Reason: correct spelling
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  #47  
Old 12-05-2016, 06:35 PM
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G'day, mite. (heh heh. Just my pathetic attempt at an Australian accent).
Here is a link to a good Model 41 maintenance page. It has lots of photos that you can use for comparison as well:
Model 41 maintenance
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  #48  
Old 12-05-2016, 09:53 PM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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It looks to me like your gun was assembled with some machining steps skipped. I can't imagine why they would do this.
Thanks for your photos.

It certainly does look like mine skipped a couple of machining steps.

The Aus distributor seems to think that the finish (?) on this new barrel is quite normal, and that polishing / finishing the barrel is "gun fit specific" and that means that each one gets "hand finished" to suit the gun that it being fitted to.

What a load of **** !!! They supply and sell drop in replacement barrels FFS !!

The more they try an justify their incompetence, the angrier I am getting.

Still no response from S&W international Dept. in the USA.
I wonder if they have people that read these forums ?
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  #49  
Old 12-05-2016, 11:10 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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They only need one person from this Company to read this Forum. Guess what level he is in at their shop. Tom S I have dealt with many world class corporations during my work career and when nessesary I go right to the top. I have always had a reply directly from them a well. In any GOOD Company the little guy does have a voice. These Presidents of Companies have Big Toes to step on if need be. Its one of the reasons they are in that position. A lot of people on here are waiting with you for a proper reply and outcome as well.
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  #50  
Old 12-05-2016, 11:35 PM
leinster lad leinster lad is offline
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The worry for me Barrie is that this level of "quality" is now considered acceptable by S&W, and as such, nothing will change.
Many companies have gone down this road. It is just a numbers game and on an individual basis, they are not concerned.
To them, it does not matter if they lose 1000 sales, because they simply cannot keep up with demand anyway.

I have sent S&W another email, outlining my disappointment and asking if my concerns can be elevated to a person with a higher pay grade.

I also have James Debney's email, and are considering contacting him personally.

For the time being though, i'll let the normal chain of command deal with it.

I am really not sure what they could even do ?? short of sending my gun shop a replacement 100% perfect ready to go replacement barrel directly ? and maybe half a dozen factory magazines ??

Maybe a complimentary S&W gift pack, containing lots of S&W goodies ??

I won't be holding my breath........

So that shiny new 686 I was thinking about might now have to be a Python ..

Last edited by leinster lad; 12-05-2016 at 11:37 PM. Reason: spelling, grammar, sanity....
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