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Old 08-06-2016, 11:12 PM
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Abit of a long story, this gun has had its extractor replaced, the recoil spring replaced and its function to my knowledge fully checked over.

and its still stove piping, I switched from a wolf 17 pound recoil spring, the weight that they say is the factory standard to a 16, as it was stove piping from shooting two handed with a solid grip with the 17, and the hogue rubber grips on it that really fill the hand,

while one handed it functioned fine, like is the grip too good and thus making the gun stove pipe?

and its still doing it now too with the 16, and thus my question is, do I need a lighter recoil spring, like a 15 or a 13, or heavier than 17 even

and its an early model 4006 at that, like one of the first ones that came out, and I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.

and thus at this point I'm kind of at my wits end, do I keep fiddling with it and hoping either a 15 or a 13 pound recoil spring for a standard model 4006 will fix it or is there something else wrong with its functioning that I'm not aware of

or some other known problem with this series of pistol.

or is it just that the hogue rubber grip is too damn good at its job and is causing the gun to jam, as I have big bear heavy hands that fit a model 29 perfectly with pachmayer grips.

Last edited by Kavinsky; 08-06-2016 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 08-06-2016, 11:25 PM
Jeffytune Jeffytune is offline
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It sounds like you have done the common cures.

I would say the next step would be to have a friend who is an experienced shooter try it out.
If they do not get stove-piping, well then it's you. If it happens to them as well, you can be fairly sure it is not you and the way you handle the pistol.
How many different loads have you tried?
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Old 08-07-2016, 12:18 AM
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Don't recall hearing this as an issue with the 4006. I have one made in July-1990 (TFF65xx) & it shoots fine.

What ammo are you using: reloads, factory? Does it do it with all your ammo?

Does it matter if you use a different magazine?

I reload my ammo to full power & I've used a heavier Wolff recoil spring, 20# & 22#, without issue. I have Hogue rubber grips on it too.

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Old 08-07-2016, 01:04 AM
TercGen TercGen is offline
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I also wonder if it could be a magazine problem, maybe a good cleaning and a new mag spring (if they've been used for more than 5 years)?
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Old 08-08-2016, 04:29 AM
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165 grain brand new american eagle ammo, and I got a new old stock magazine and it happens with that and the older ones, I had it happen with the New Old stock fully loaded, and then the older one that it came with.

and blue dot your running a 20 - 22 power spring in it? is it possible that maybe with how heavy the slide is I need a heavier spring for this thing than 17?
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:36 PM
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Extraction/ejection problems are often the result of either a damaged/improperly fit extractor, and/or a broken ejector.

Who replaced the extractor? Was the extractor just dropped in, or was it fit as is typically required? Was the extractor spring checked for proper tension (requires use of force dial gauge, and there's more than 1 spring that can be used)?

Is the ejector tip broken off?

Your gun has either the top (newer/revised) or bottom (original/short) ejector. They can be black/blued, too. If the tip is broken off, it's usually on the older style, at the sharply angled corner behind the tip.


How old are the mag springs? Are the mag followers yellow or blue? (The yellow seem to work fine for most people, but the blue ones are the current revision. I've never been able to see any obvious difference, myself.)

Why reduce the rating of the recoil spring? Have you actually tried an actual factory recoil spring?

Have you tried any other ammunition than the 165gr budget Federal load, like a 180gr load?

Is the gun lubricated?

Rubber Hogues aren't typically an issue on the big 3rd gen's, although for people with large (and/or fleshy web) hands they may add to the potential for hammer bite.
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Old 08-20-2016, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Extraction/ejection problems are often the result of either a damaged/improperly fit extractor, and/or a broken ejector.

Who replaced the extractor? Was the extractor just dropped in, or was it fit as is typically required? Was the extractor spring checked for proper tension (requires use of force dial gauge, and there's more than 1 spring that can be used)?

Is the ejector tip broken off?

Your gun has either the top (newer/revised) or bottom (original/short) ejector. They can be black/blued, too. If the tip is broken off, it's usually on the older style, at the sharply angled corner behind the tip.


How old are the mag springs? Are the mag followers yellow or blue? (The yellow seem to work fine for most people, but the blue ones are the current revision. I've never been able to see any obvious difference, myself.)

Why reduce the rating of the recoil spring? Have you actually tried an actual factory recoil spring?

Have you tried any other ammunition than the 165gr budget Federal load, like a 180gr load?

Is the gun lubricated?

Rubber Hogues aren't typically an issue on the big 3rd gen's, although for people with large (and/or fleshy web) hands they may add to the potential for hammer bite.

The gun had its extractor replaced and fitted by a gunsmith, as it was having this same problem right out of the box when it was bought used

and then taken to a competent one after the extractor broke, IE the front gripper part of it broke, and I think that was after screwing around with a different recoil spring

its abit hard to remember has their has been alot of screwing around to get this thing to function right

and I tried to stick with factory spring weights, the first spring came from brownells as a factory replacement spring out of the back of their catalog, then its got its extractor replaced after it broke while using it after it had been fiddled around with by that other gunsmith

and I dont know what style it got replaced with actually.

and then it still had the same problem afterwards, stovepiping then this second one came from wolff themselves as part of the service pack at 17 pounds

so I dont know what the spring tension of the first one from brownells was, as it really didnt fit that well and it seemed too long, like it was ment for the 4006 Match Version.

and just recently I told them, wolff the problem I had and they sent me the 16 pound spring free of charge actually, as I guess they figured the spring might be too strong for the gun

although after blue dots post and remembering what Mike Larroca told me about the walther PP and PPK spring rates.

where the PP is 15, and the PPK is 20 for its half an inch shorter barrel, and I wonder if maybe I'm doing a nutinfancy and putting the wrong power springs on it and blaming the gun, given it is a shorter barrel like the PPK in a way

as I asked Mike about that after Nutfancy screwed up his PP by putting that 17 pound spring on it, only to learn he shot himself and his gun in the foot by acting like a fool and not putting the proper spring rate in his gun, and he did this for the CZ 75 too.....

both of which I have handled, shot and not had any of those problems that he had as well.

and I'm kind of wondering if I'm doing the same thing here, like maybe it needs more than a 17 pound spring, as it seemed to recoil a little worse with the 16.

and I dont have any 180 grain at present really, its just a lot of 165's and I always keep the gun lubricated with hoppies no 9

the mag springs for all of the magazines are probably all stock and I have both yellow and blue, and I had it happen with a mag that had either on them too so I dont think its a mag problem.

which means it has to be one of the two, the Extractor or the Recoil Spring, hell maybe I need to take a look at the kicker and see if that's intact actually.

and now you see why I came here, I'm just like what am I doing wrong here lol

Last edited by Kavinsky; 08-20-2016 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 08-20-2016, 06:52 AM
Big Cholla Big Cholla is offline
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I had a student with the same problem. His gunsmith did all the mods you have. I tried the M 4006 and it didn't stovepipe for me. I handed it back and told him to shoot and I will watch. He also had great big work hardened hands. After a few shots his hands crept up on the grip and his thumbs started rubbing the slide. That was just enough to cause the stovepipe. He never noticed the rubbing because his fingers were calloused and he was tense trying for the best accuracy possible.

IMHO, you should get an experienced Instructor to watch your shooting technique very closely. .............
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Old 08-20-2016, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinsky View Post
The gun had its extractor replaced and fitted by a gunsmith, as it was having this same problem right out of the box when it was bought used

and then taken to a competent one after the extractor broke, IE the front gripper part of it broke, and I think that was after screwing around with a different recoil spring

its abit hard to remember has their has been alot of screwing around to get this thing to function right

...

which means it has to be one of the two, the Extractor or the Recoil Spring, hell maybe I need to take a look at the kicker and see if that's intact actually.

and now you see why I came here, I'm just like what am I doing wrong here lol
You're saying the extractor has been replaced TWICE??

If the gunsmiths had the S&W extractor bar gauges they could file/fit the .40 extractor.

If they had a low force Wagner Force Dial gauge, with the proper extractor hook extension, they could determine the extractor spring tension and dial it in (using an appropriate extractor spring).

If they didn't have those tools, I have no idea how they "fitted" a new extractor to that slide, or put the extractor spring tension in the factory-recommended tension range (5-8lbs). The extractors typically aren't a "drop-in" part, nor does guesswork replace the use of the tools, especially if someone is experienced and accustomed to servicing and repairing 3rd gen guns. (No, you don't use the "does it hold a dummy round under the extractor" sort of eyeball "test".)

Also, some 3rd gen .40's function best when the the extractor is fitted more tightly (called 'tightly blocked', meaning when the GO end of the Bar gauge requires just a little bit of force for it to slip it between the edge of the extractor hook and the opposite shoulder of the breech face).

Yes, the "kicker" (hope you mean ejector) needs to be in good condition for the gun to consistently operate normally.

Experimenting with recoil and mag springs is a good way to introduce further confusion about what's happen ... or not happening, but should be happening. The heavier the recoil spring, the more likely you can introduce extraction/ejection issues, especially if running budget ammo that has a lighter bullet weight. The older the mag springs, the more likely it becomes for feeding "timing" issues to surface.

As was mentioned by another poster, I've also seen my fair share of shooter hand/finger position - which can unknowingly shift during recoil & cycling - to be involved in causing odd and puzzling functioning issues.

Maybe it might be worth the time to call the factory warranty station in TX, and let them look at the gun?

LSG
10059 HWY 1476
COMANCHE, TX 76442
Phone: (325) 885-2700
Email: franks@wildblue.net Web: LSG, Mfg|Gun Parts|Warranty|Gunsmithing

Trial & error is a frustrating, and usually inefficient & ineffective, way to try and diagnose gun issues.
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 08-20-2016 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 08-29-2016, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Cholla View Post
I had a student with the same problem. His gunsmith did all the mods you have. I tried the M 4006 and it didn't stovepipe for me. I handed it back and told him to shoot and I will watch. He also had great big work hardened hands. After a few shots his hands crept up on the grip and his thumbs started rubbing the slide. That was just enough to cause the stovepipe. He never noticed the rubbing because his fingers were calloused and he was tense trying for the best accuracy possible.

IMHO, you should get an experienced Instructor to watch your shooting technique very closely. .............
I've never had issues like that before, that's the weird thing, I can and have shot the tiniest of guns without any sort of issue, I mean I just managed to get that moose of a glock, the 27 to actually hit where I aim despite it being way too small for the .40 call cartridge by using the trigger guard as a mounting point for my hand.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
You're saying the extractor has been replaced TWICE??

If the gunsmiths had the S&W extractor bar gauges they could file/fit the .40 extractor.

If they had a low force Wagner Force Dial gauge, with the proper extractor hook extension, they could determine the extractor spring tension and dial it in (using an appropriate extractor spring).

If they didn't have those tools, I have no idea how they "fitted" a new extractor to that slide, or put the extractor spring tension in the factory-recommended tension range (5-8lbs). The extractors typically aren't a "drop-in" part, nor does guesswork replace the use of the tools, especially if someone is experienced and accustomed to servicing and repairing 3rd gen guns. (No, you don't use the "does it hold a dummy round under the extractor" sort of eyeball "test".)

Also, some 3rd gen .40's function best when the the extractor is fitted more tightly (called 'tightly blocked', meaning when the GO end of the Bar gauge requires just a little bit of force for it to slip it between the edge of the extractor hook and the opposite shoulder of the breech face).

Yes, the "kicker" (hope you mean ejector) needs to be in good condition for the gun to consistently operate normally.

Experimenting with recoil and mag springs is a good way to introduce further confusion about what's happen ... or not happening, but should be happening. The heavier the recoil spring, the more likely you can introduce extraction/ejection issues, especially if running budget ammo that has a lighter bullet weight. The older the mag springs, the more likely it becomes for feeding "timing" issues to surface.

As was mentioned by another poster, I've also seen my fair share of shooter hand/finger position - which can unknowingly shift during recoil & cycling - to be involved in causing odd and puzzling functioning issues.

Maybe it might be worth the time to call the factory warranty station in TX, and let them look at the gun?

LSG
10059 HWY 1476
COMANCHE, TX 76442
Phone: (325) 885-2700
Email: franks@wildblue.net Web: LSG, Mfg|Gun Parts|Warranty|Gunsmithing

Trial & error is a frustrating, and usually inefficient & ineffective, way to try and diagnose gun issues.

well the extractor was replaced once, and it was taken to the other gunsmith and looked over, maybe I need to tell the competent one to put in a new extractor, as I know he's worked on this kind of gun before. the 9's though, not the 40's

as he worked over the trigger and got abit of the roughness out of it, although he did say it was very unplessant to shoot, as he has arthritis in the hands.

I dont know, I do want to try it with a 20 pound recoil spring from wolf, so I'll see if maybe it could be that, but maybe before hand I should put the 17 back in and try holding it lower down or switching to the stock grips, as maybe that could be contributing to me holding too high and bumping the slide.

and now you see why I came here, and how many variables are involved lol
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Old 08-29-2016, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavinsky View Post
as it was stove piping from shooting two handed with a solid grip with the 17, and the hogue rubber grips on it that really fill the hand,

while one handed it functioned fine, like is the grip too good and thus making the gun stove pipe?
This means something and falls in line with what Big Cholla was saying about your thumb possibly rubbing the slide.
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Old 08-29-2016, 03:54 PM
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Unless the smith has the factory bar gauge and a Wagner force dial gauge (with the correct hooked attachment to pull against the extractor hook and check for the deflection point), it's guesswork to check the fit of a new extractor and the proper spring tension. There are 3 different extractor springs that might be used for the average 3rd gen .40, to get the extractor spring in the right tension range (and a 4th one if we're talking about one of the 411's).

The thick rubber Hogue grips can sometimes lend themselves to pushing the web of the strong hand (of someone with fleshy hands) far enough under the hammer to result in hammer bite. The thumb and finger positioning can shift under the snappy recoil of the .40, and sometimes belatedly lift up to touch something (slide, slide stop, mag catch button) as the gun is recoiling back downward ... and this isn't often "felt" by the shooter. It takes an observant instructor to catch this sort of thing while watching the shooter's grip (not the target).

If you call and speak with Fred at the Texas warranty station, he might decide it's a possible warranty issue and arrange for free shipping. Dunno, especially since some non-factory gunsmith has already done something with the extractor, but it can't hurt to call and ask about it.

Otherwise, you can continue the trial & error method and hope it works at some point.

BTW, going to heavier recoil springs also means the slide running forward into battery harder. This means the slide stop pin is going to probably have some additional force hitting it over time. Nothing wrong with the factory spring rating, though.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Unless the smith has the factory bar gauge and a Wagner force dial gauge (with the correct hooked attachment to pull against the extractor hook and check for the deflection point), it's guesswork to check the fit of a new extractor and the proper spring tension. There are 3 different extractor springs that might be used for the average 3rd gen .40, to get the extractor spring in the right tension range (and a 4th one if we're talking about one of the 411's).

The thick rubber Hogue grips can sometimes lend themselves to pushing the web of the strong hand (of someone with fleshy hands) far enough under the hammer to result in hammer bite. The thumb and finger positioning can shift under the snappy recoil of the .40, and sometimes belatedly lift up to touch something (slide, slide stop, mag catch button) as the gun is recoiling back downward ... and this isn't often "felt" by the shooter. It takes an observant instructor to catch this sort of thing while watching the shooter's grip (not the target).

If you call and speak with Fred at the Texas warranty station, he might decide it's a possible warranty issue and arrange for free shipping. Dunno, especially since some non-factory gunsmith has already done something with the extractor, but it can't hurt to call and ask about it.

Otherwise, you can continue the trial & error method and hope it works at some point.

BTW, going to heavier recoil springs also means the slide running forward into battery harder. This means the slide stop pin is going to probably have some additional force hitting it over time. Nothing wrong with the factory spring rating, though.

yeah just to give you guys an update I went to the range with 18 and 20 pound LB springs in addition to the 17 factory and I had some odd issues with the 18, as the 20 was too heavy to fit into the gun and compress.

and I had a weird lockback issue on one of the rounds with the 18 where it fully locked the pistol back on a full magazine after one round, so I went back to the 17. and it seemed to work fine although I still had the odd stove piping

and I had one round that got hung up on the feedramp when trying to load the pistol, a semi wadcutter FMJ and in checking it and feeling around where the rounds feed it seems like theirs abit of a sharp edge in there.

so I think it needs a feed ramp/reliability package to rub it down abit given this and it would explain why no matter what I do it still shows up from time to time.

like maybe when mine was made the machining for the thing was still quite sharp and new at the smith and wesson factory and it indavertantly caused the issue with the thing, as I bought it used but it didnt seem that used really.

as it reminds me of a story on here with a PPK/S in Stainless Steel where the guy tried everything in a very similar manner to what I did and couldnt get the thing to work, and he just passed it off to his daughter, naturally telling her of the issue with it, she takes it to a gunsmith and he gives its feedramp abit of a polish and a work over and then it starts working fine.

to the point where she wants to give it back to the dad given he really did like the thing and couldnt get it working and he passes as he's just up and done with the thing.

and it makes sense as the stainless steel of the early to late 80's and the very early 90's is abit rough compared to what it is now, and even then its not quite as malleable as normal steel, as every stainless gun I've ever handled has been abit on the rough side compared to its normal steel brethren.

Last edited by Kavinsky; 10-07-2016 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 10-08-2016, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
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...I had some odd issues with the 18, as the 20 was too heavy to fit into the gun and compress.
Wolff recoil springs? I've installed their 20#, even tried a 22# in my 4006 without any issues. Not sure why it didn't fit in yours.

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Old 10-08-2016, 02:07 AM
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I run the Wolff 22# spring in the 4006 with the 357 Sig barrel.
Anything less is too light and beats up the gun and barrel.
But it installs with no problem just like the stock 17#.

John
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