3953 back to the range

[GaryS]

My first foray to the range after picking up my3953 was a bit disappointing. While the trigger pull on the DAO gun is smooth and relatively short, I found that my shots were hitting 6 or more inch low at 7 yards!

After some discussion on the forum, I decided that maybe it just didn't like 115gr bullets, so started buying 124 and 147 range ammo when I could find it.

A friend called me early this morning and asked me if I wanted to meet him at the range. It's nice and sunny here in eastern MA, with temps in the high 30s. Good winter shooting weather as there is no snow on the ground and no wind.

We met at the range and first shot my new to me 351C. That's a nice gun, but with a stiff trigger. I saved my brass and will be doing a lot of dry firing to smooth out the action.

Then I loaded up the 3953 with Browning 147 FMJ range ammo. I was shooting at fairly short ranges because a third friend was with us and he had never shot before. I'll write about that a bit at the end.

Anyway, at 10 feet with 147gr rounds, I was right where I should have been. The 3953 is pleasant to shoot. The only thing I'll do is add a Pachmyar grip sleeve to improve the grip fit a bit. My new to shooting friend tried it and was shooting a bit high, but that's him, not the gun.

I then loaded up with 115gr Blazer Brass. It's reasonably good range fodder, although some people think it's loaded way too lightly.

In a direct comparison, the Blazer shoots low at the same distance. It might be okay for some of my other 3rd Gens, but definitely not suitable for DAO.

I plan to do some more comparisons with other 3rd gen, most particularly, my no rail 30913TSW. That always seems to shoot low, which I have attributed to the Meprolight night sights, but maybe it's an ammunition issue as well.

Currently I'm carrying 124gr for personal defense, but based on further testing I might switch to 147gr for at least some of my 3rd Gens.

A note on the 351C, if I might. That's a sweet shooting firearm, although with the usual J frame heavy DA trigger pull. In another thread it was suggested that maybe some work on the trigger and hammer interface areas might improve things. I'm going to go with the other suggestion, which was to save my used brass and use it for dry firing. A 1,000 or so "rounds" should improve the trigger pull.

I mentioned the new shooter earlier. My friend was teaching my other friend how to shoot. Oy. First, my friend uses poor shooting technique, mo matter how much I try to coach him. So, of course he's passing that on to my other friend. Who I told to pay close attention to everything that friend 1 says, and then do none of it.

The second problem is that they were using a 442-1 for instruction. Yikes. I can't really think of a worse gun to introduce someone to shooting with. The 351C is less than ideal as well, but it was much better. I was able to get my friend pretty close to on target after a couple of cylinders. Next time, I'll bring my sweet shooting Model 18 and let him try that.

All in all, it was a good morning at the range. Not that there are really any bad mornings at the range.

I hope I didn't ramble too much.

[JFthunder]

I purchased one of the NPD trade-in 3953s. Have had only limited opportunities to test & familiarize myself with it. However the first thing I learned was it really performs much better with the heavier ammo. The 147s of a couple brands are "right on" at 5 yards to 50 feet. Most 125s have been "close" with only slight variations. The 115s consistently shoot low in my 3953. It's interesting that my 39-2 preferred the lighter loads to the 147s. All in the way they were regulated....wonder what new night sights will cause...?

[M29since14]

Your M18 is a natural for the job you propose. For the benefit of the new guy, if you first can get him to understand that the object of all shooting is "hitting," which is not always an easy thing as lots of new handgun shooters have some really "unusual" ideas, he will be way ahead - and the 18 is the perfect revolver to get him on his way in this.

As to the 3953, over the years I've seen S&W 9mm autos perform differently with different ammo (bullet weights), but one thing they have all seemed to have had in common is their preference to be "slammed around." I have yet to see one that cared for lighter loads with any bullet weight. Of course you can fix the point of impact issue with a new front sight, if it comes to that.

[0849]

While I do not have a 3953, I shoot a 3913TSW and 3914TSW, which I am thinking should shoot similar to your 3953. I have found them to cycle every type of ammo I have tried very reliably, however, I have noticed some ammo shooting a bit high or low at various distances, but the Winchester 124 Grain NATO ammo seems to be extremely flat shooting from 3 yards out to 25 yards, consistently impacts at point of aim at 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards, so I am now using that exclusively for qual courses and most range trips, occasionally trying other ammo as I see something interesting to try or use up old stock. Might be worth trying that Winchester 124 gr NATO in your 3953, would be interested in knowing how it works out. I usually order it from Cabellas website, no shipping charge if you pick it up at store and sometimes they run free shipping to home deals, at $13.99 box of 50 price is not bad.

[GaryS]

I bought the Mdl 18 some years ago when .22LR was cheap and plentiful. It's a great gun to practice DA trigger control on. It's also a great gun for new shooters. Smooth trigger, accurate, no appreciable recoil.

I taught my Daughter In Law to shoot on mine, and she loves shooting it so much that it's going to be hers when I no longer need it. Which makes my son incredibly jealous.

The first thing I did with my friend is explain to him how the sights worked on the 351C. Once he understood that concept, he started putting rounds consistently on paper.

I did the same thing with the 442-1, but the sights are different and the recoil threw him off a bit. Still, after a couple of cylinders worth, he was getting on paper, but low. Considering that he'd never shot before, that was pretty good.

I had to correct his grip, stance, and explain the concept of focusing on the front sight. He'll get it, but it will take a while.

He was doing what he saw on TV, of course. I did call him "Angie" once, because he had that Pepper Anderson grip where the weak hand is cupped around the bottom of the shooting hand, pushing the gun up.


I also let him shoot the 3953 with both bullet weights. He was also consistently low with the 115gr and much closer to point of aim with the 147gr.

I've got a couple of hundred 115gr rounds left that I've been trying to sell off. Since the offers I've gotten have been insultingly low, I'll probably just use that in my 5906. THAT gun doesn't care what I shoot through it. It makes me look like a competition shooter.

Originally Posted by M29since14

Your M18 is a natural for the job you propose. For the benefit of the new guy, if you first can get him to understand that the object of all shooting is "hitting," which is not always an easy thing as lots of new handgun shooters have some really "unusual" ideas, he will be way ahead - and the 18 is the perfect revolver to get him on his way in this.

As to the 3953, over the years I've seen S&W 9mm autos perform differently with different ammo (bullet weights), but one thing they have all seemed to have had in common is their preference to be "slammed around." I have yet to see one that cared for lighter loads with any bullet weight. Of course you can fix the point of impact issue with a new front sight, if it comes to that.

[nocents]

Originally Posted by 0849

While I do not have a 3953, I shoot a 3913TSW and 3914TSW, which I am thinking should shoot similar to your 3953. I have found them to cycle every type of ammo I have tried very reliably, however, I have noticed some ammo shooting a bit high or low at various distances, but the Winchester 124 Grain NATO ammo seems to be extremely flat shooting from 3 yards out to 25 yards, consistently impacts at point of aim at 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards, so I am now using that exclusively for qual courses and most range trips, occasionally trying other ammo as I see something interesting to try or use up old stock. Might be worth trying that Winchester 124 gr NATO in your 3953, would be interested in knowing how it works out. I usually order it from Cabellas website, no shipping charge if you pick it up at store and sometimes they run free shipping to home deals, at $13.99 box of 50 price is not bad.

I tried a lot of different in ammo in my 3913NL and the flattest shooting ammo I found for it is the Sellier/Bellot 124 gr. fmj...all my range shooting with it is at 10-12 yards and in though

[GaryS]

My 3913s all seem to shoot higher than the 3953 with 115gr ammo. Except my non rail 3913TSW. I have been attributing that to the Meprolight sights, but maybe it's not. Or maybe it's a combination.

I have a few different types of 124gr I've been carrying in my 3913s. It seems to shoot pretty close to point of aim, but I'm going to test 115 vs 124 vs 147 and see what shoots best. I had a box of Remington 115gr JHP that I shot. That shot higher than the 115gr range ammo.

On a guess, it's a combination of bullet weight as well as powder type and loading.

I have to look, but I think I have some boxes of WWB 124gr FMJ in the ammo locker. I have a few different types of 24gr JHP as well. Further testing will be done.

Originally Posted by 0849

While I do not have a 3953, I shoot a 3913TSW and 3914TSW, which I am thinking should shoot similar to your 3953. I have found them to cycle every type of ammo I have tried very reliably, however, I have noticed some ammo shooting a bit high or low at various distances, but the Winchester 124 Grain NATO ammo seems to be extremely flat shooting from 3 yards out to 25 yards, consistently impacts at point of aim at 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards, so I am now using that exclusively for qual courses and most range trips, occasionally trying other ammo as I see something interesting to try or use up old stock. Might be worth trying that Winchester 124 gr NATO in your 3953, would be interested in knowing how it works out. I usually order it from Cabellas website, no shipping charge if you pick it up at store and sometimes they run free shipping to home deals, at $13.99 box of 50 price is not bad.

[18DAI]

The DAO guns never shot well for me either GaryS. Thats why I sold a LNIB 3954 and bought another 3914 with the cash.

I read about how the 3rd gen DAO trigger is ".......like a tuned revolver trigger....". Dunno. I ve shot a bunch of them and was not impressed. Good luck! Regards 18DAI

[TTSH]

Okay, I've got to bring this thread back up again because it has been bothering me. I have no doubt that the experiences stated herein are 100% truthful and accurate. I trust members of "Team 3rd Gen" implicitly! What I'm having trouble with is figuring out, from a technical perspective, why certain things are so.

Can anyone answer or direct me to an answer regarding why the heavier rounds shoot flatter or higher than the 115 Gr rounds? And why might there be a difference between the 3913/3914 and the 3953/3954 in terms of point of impact (i.e., higher/flatter with the 3913/3914)?

My engineering background is getting in the way of my foggy, half-senile old brain accepting these realities without some sort of technical explanation or at least a good plausible working theory. Maybe I should know this, but I don't.

For the record, I own and shoot nothing but 115 Gr 9mm brass case range ammo... enough of it that I need to constantly worry about our MA storage limit law lest I go over the limit and end up in jail. Have I bought the wrong 9mm ammo all these years? If so, better that I find out earlier instead of later. Help!!!

[0849]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Okay, I've got to bring this thread back up again because it has been bothering me. I have no doubt that the experiences stated herein are 100% truthful and accurate. I trust members of "Team 3rd Gen" implicitly! What I'm having trouble with is figuring out, from a technical perspective, why certain things are so.

Can anyone answer or direct me to an answer regarding why the heavier rounds shoot flatter or higher than the 115 Gr rounds? And why might there be a difference between the 3913/3914 and the 3953/3954 in terms of point of impact (i.e., higher/flatter with the 3913/3914)?

My engineering background is getting in the way of my foggy, half-senile old brain accepting these realities without some sort of technical explanation or at least a good plausible working theory. Maybe I should know this, but I don't.

For the record, I own and shoot nothing but 115 Gr 9mm brass case range ammo... enough if it that I need to constantly worry about our MA storage limit law lest I go over the limit and end up in jail. Have I bought the wrong 9mm ammo all these years? If so, better that I find out earlier instead of later. Help!!!

Does MA really have a storage amount limit on ammo kept by private citizens, or was that a joke?

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by 0849

Does MA really have a storage amount limit on ammo kept by private citizens, or was that a joke?

"I never joke Double-Oh-Seven" (I always wanted to say that!).

No, not a joke.

[Bob L]

My understanding is that the heavier bullet takes longer to exit the barrel so the action-reaction from the shot means that the barrel rises up higher with the heavier slower bullet.

[GaryS]

It does, but I've never heard of it being enforced. It's actually a fire department regulation. If you go over the initial limit, you can get a permit from the local fire department to up that limit to something else. I think the permit is something like $10.00.

From what I have seen, some fire departments don't even know that such a thing exists.

I think it's a $50.00 fine, because it's a civil infraction, not criminal. It comes under the Code of Massachusetts Regulations (CMR) that cover the fire service. I could probably find the citation, but it would take more time than I'm interested in investing in the search.

Originally Posted by 0849

Does MA really have a storage amount limit on ammo kept by private citizens, or was that a joke?

[GaryS]

My understanding is that the heavier bullet causes more recoil. IIRC, it's an application of Newton's Third Law of Motion,

<h2>For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action. </h2>

So, a heavier bullet will cause more recoil, which will cause the muzzle to lift more, causing the bullet to hit the target higher. A lighter bullet will cause less recoil, less muzzle lift and the bullet will strike lower.

Of course the weight of the gun itself will affect the reaction.

My 5906, being all stainless and heavier, doesn't see the big changes between the two bullet weights. My 6906 does, but not as much as say my 3913 or a CS9.

Of course barrel length also affects that as well.

That's my understanding, but I'm not a physicist or a ballistician, don't play one on TV and haven't slept at a Holiday Inn Express in over a month.

Originally Posted by Bob L

My understanding is that the heavier bullet takes longer to exit the barrel so the action-reaction from the shot means that the barrel rises up higher with the heavier slower bullet.

[rwt1405]

Originally Posted by 18DAI

The DAO guns never shot well for me either GaryS. Thats why I sold a LNIB 3954 and bought another 3914 with the cash.

I read about how the 3rd gen DAO trigger is ".......like a tuned revolver trigger....". Dunno. I ve shot a bunch of them and was not impressed. Good luck! Regards 18DAI

Well, that's fine for you, a good many of us have found the DAO triggers to be very good.

You feel free to not be impressed (to each his own).

I will tell you that I bought my first DAO's in 1991, and after shooting them, I got rid of ALL of my DA/SA autos.

I will never purchase another DA/SA auto.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by Bob L

My understanding is that the heavier bullet takes longer to exit the barrel so the action-reaction from the shot means that the barrel rises up higher with the heavier slower bullet.

Originally Posted by GaryS

My understanding is that the heavier bullet causes more recoil. IIRC, it's an application of Newton's Third Law of Motion,

So, a heavier bullet will cause more recoil, which will cause the muzzle to lift more, causing the bullet to hit the target higher. A lighter bullet will cause less recoil, less muzzle lift and the bullet will strike lower.

Of course the weight of the gun itself will affect the reaction.

My 5906, being all stainless and heavier, doesn't see the big changes between the two bullet weights. My 6906 does, but not as much as say my 3913 or a CS9.

Of course barrel length also affects that as well.

That's my understanding, but I'm not a physicist or a ballistician, don't play one on TV and haven't slept at a Holiday Inn Express in over a month.

Okay, fair enough. Thanks guys. So would I be correct in thinking that either gun (3913 or 3953) if held firmly in a gun vice would hit the same spot (+/-) on the target regardless of bullet weight? Or put a little more simply, bullet weight shouldn't affect impact point for either gun... yes?

[nocents]

Originally Posted by rwt1405

Well, that's fine for you, a good many of us have found the DAO triggers to be very good.

You feel free to not be impressed (to each his own).

I will tell you that I bought my first DAO's in 1991, and after shooting them, I got rid of ALL of my DA/SA autos.

I will never purchase another DA/SA auto.

.......wow....just wow

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Okay, fair enough. Thanks guys. So would I be correct in thinking that either gun (3913 or 3953) if held firmly in a gun vice would hit the same spot (+/-) on the target regardless of bullet weight? Or put a little more simply, bullet weight shouldn't affect impact point for either gun... yes?

Not sure what a "gun vice" () might be, but I presume you mean that somehow the gun could be caused not to move upon discharge. In that case, I believe you would be correct - at any reasonable distance. Of course very soon the gun would likely beat itself to death, but in theory I believe you are correct.

All that really matters here is how much the gun can move before the bullet exits the muzzle. The various determining factors that lead to acceleration of the muzzle and exit velocity of the projectile are fairly self-evident.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by M29since14

Not sure what a "gun vice" () might be, but I presume you mean that somehow the gun could be caused not to move upon discharge. In that case, I believe you would be correct - at any reasonable distance. Of course very soon the gun would likely beat itself to death, but in theory I believe you are correct.

All that really matters here is how much the gun can move before the bullet exits the muzzle. The various determining factors that lead to acceleration of the muzzle and exit velocity of the projectile are fairly self-evident.

"Pistol vice" would have been a more accurate term (not to be confused with "Miami Vice").

Anyway, I can kinda sorta accept the "recoil" explanation in regard to bullet weight... although it still doesn't explain why a 3913 would shoot higher or flatter than a 3953.

[ZoomieG]

For those asking about POI changes with bullet weight, here is a good resource:

The Effects of Bullet Weight, Velocity and Trajectory on Point of Impact

Long story short; out of the same gun with same point of aim, heavier bullets will hit higher, and lighter ones lower.

[0849]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Okay, fair enough. Thanks guys. So would I be correct in thinking that either gun (3913 or 3953) if held firmly in a gun vice would hit the same spot (+/-) on the target regardless of bullet weight? Or put a little more simply, bullet weight shouldn't affect impact point for either gun... yes?

I thought a gun vice is what I have because every time I see a 3rd gen tsw model I want to buy it

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by TTSH

"Pistol vice" would have been a more accurate term (not to be confused with "Miami Vice").

Anyway, I can kinda sorta accept the "recoil" explanation in regard to bullet weight... although it still doesn't explain why a 3913 would shoot higher or flatter than a 3953.

You mean a "vise," do you not? I was trying to have a little fun at your expense but I didn't pull it off.

Anyway, pistols of very similar to apparently identical construction shoot where they shoot depending on very small differences in fitting, the quality of certain parts (notably the barrel), and how the parts interact. When there is a problem, sometimes tracking these gremlins down can be frustrating, so the expedient way to proceed (at least it seems to me) is if the pistol produces good and consistent results for its user, and the user is not seriously deficient in his marksmanship, then just adjust the sights! - and be happy!

I have probably mentioned it here before but I once owned a Model 66 that would not keep six shots on a 15x15" paper at 50-feet, with any type of ammunition I had on hand. I was fortunate to be able to consult with one of the best custom revolver builders in the country about the gun. Neither he, nor I, could come up with anything that might cause such gross inaccuracy. Everything about the gun appeared - and measured - completely normal.

My only recourse would have been to send it back to Springfield where I likely would have been on the hook for a new barrel, and/or cylinder, but in this case the seller was a true gentleman and allowed me to return the gun, so I never did find out just what was ailing the Model 66.

[GaryS]

No more calls folks, we have a winner!

Originally Posted by 0849

I thought a gun vice is what I have because every time I see a 3rd gen tsw model I want to buy it

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by M29since14

You mean a "vise," do you not? I was trying to have a little fun at your expense but I didn't pull it off.

Damn! Ya got me!!!

I'm just not the sharp tack that I used to be!

[Remmark54]

Do both guns have identical grips? Straight back or curved back grips may cause some shooters to have the same bullets hit at different points of aim. The 1911 went from a straight grip to the A-1 configuration of a curved recoil spring housing to move the point of hitting up as most military were shooting low. I'm sure this was in part to the one hand hold they were teaching back in those days.

[ShelbyV8]

3rd gen factory POI is set for "standard" bullet weight. 9mm 124, 40 cal 180, and 45 230. When those older pistols were built there weren't any 115's.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by ShelbyV8

3rd gen factory POI is set for "standard" bullet weight. 9mm 124, 40 cal 180, and 45 230. When those older pistols were built there weren't any 115's.

Okay, not sure if serious here. Either I am missing something bigtime (which is always possible) or you must just be goofing on me (but usually that is Mr. Bam-Bam doing that).

Doesn't the 115 Gr 9mm bullet weight go all the way back to the development of the round more than 100 years ago?

Lord knows that I am not any sort of expert on the development and history of handgun cartridges, but I think I need a little more information on what you are trying to say.

[silversport]

Yes...and back when 115GR was VERY popular...

Bill

[silversport]

And to add I have always noticed different POI with 115, 124, 147, 115 +P+, 124 +P and 127 +P+ ...some made a big enough difference that training was required...just my experience...

Bill

[GaryS]

I had some time today and some really nice late February weather, so I took the 3953 back to the range. This time I had proper targets, no new shooters, and plenty of time.

I brought two boxes of ammunition. The first box was Fiocchi 115gr FMJ.

I put 50 rounds through the gun into this target.



The point of aim was the middle of the bull, and as you can see the rounds hit low and to the left. I'm not overly concerned (yet) about the to the left part. That's still a matter of getting used to the DAO trigger pull. Which is very smooth, if a bit long. With a TDA 3913, I hit at the level of the bull, but to the left. I continually have to work on that, although I'll admit with limited success. One thing is that the grouping with the DAO is more consistent than with the TDA.

That's something to think about.

Target two was shot with WWB 124gr FMJ. I noticed that my first few shots were pretty much in the orange, but then they started to drop. I slowed down my firing rate and concentrated on trigger pull, front sight, breathing, IOW, the basics and that improved again.



As you can see, the rounds struck higher overall. I think the bullet weight made a lot of difference in point of impact.

My next trip will feature a comparison of 124gr vs 147gr. I might even test DAO vs TDA.

I think I might be changing over to a DAO for personal defense.

Which of course means haunting various shops and gun shows for a 3953TSW either rail or no rail.