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Old 03-16-2017, 06:11 PM
Dregg Dregg is offline
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Default Magazine disconnect....yay or nay ?

I have a few S&W pistols and all have the magazine disconnect feature. It's a feature I'm not a fan of and would like to remove it.

My question to the hive is, what do you guys normally do? Leave it or remove it ?
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:26 PM
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They don't bother me on my S&Ws. I had a Browning Hipower which was known to have very rough trigger pull with it in. Really did make a big difference when I removed it. That said I saved the parts and eventually sold it but did tell the buyer it was out and gave him the parts.
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:28 PM
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Multiple threads on this topic in the past. Lots of strong opinions on both sides. I leave pistol as it shipped from S&W, so mine all have the "feature" in place. I was trained on a 6906 with the magazine disconnect intact so it is 2nd nature to me now.

A search on this forum or google should provide hours and hours of reading.

For concealed carry purposes weapon retention should not be a big issue. No one should know your carrying and hopefully the weapon is drawn as a last resort and retained by the owner.

For LEO or others that open carry, retention is potentially a bigger concern. Plenty of instances of folks losing the pistol to bad guys, sometimes with very bad outcomes. Mag disconnect COULD help if mag release is pushed during a struggle for the pistol.

Even pistols with the mag disconnect intact can be manipulated to fire with mag removed. If the trigger is depressed just slightly to the rear and held there BEFORE the magazine is removed, the pistol can fire a chambered round once that magazine is removed. If the trigger moves forward again without being fired, the mag disconnect will function and the pistol should not fire the chambered round.

Trigger feel is said to be improved on some models with the disconnect removed but I have never compared any side by side. Many folks remove the mag disconnect from Ruger Mark III pistols and report improvement.

Smith and Wesson did offer various models without the mag disconnect directly from factory, usually there is a warning notice engraved on the slide indicating that pistol will fire with magazine removed.

I guess it is personal preference in the end based on use and need.

Last edited by WTN1271; 03-16-2017 at 09:31 PM. Reason: grammar & spelling
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:36 PM
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I leave them but I also don't rely on them. I think it's a nice option for those who want it and S&W should have made both equally

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Old 03-16-2017, 06:37 PM
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I take the plunger and spring out of the magazine disconnect whenever the rear sights are removed, usually to put night sights on.

I don't care for the "feature" because if doing a tactical reload I still want to be able to fire the one in the tube. If someone gets the weapon out of my hands I figure I deserve to be shot anyways.

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Old 03-16-2017, 07:13 PM
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I love them and wish every one of my guns had them. I don't envision needing to do a tactical reload while I'm being shot at. I doubt I would be that cool
Under pressure. I believe the benefits outweigh the negatives. They surely have saved lives and injury. Yet to hear of one instance where they were an actual liability, and not some fantasy.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:16 PM
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Well, I just finished removing it on a 4046. Not too hard even though my pistol had the plate under the rear sight.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:18 PM
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This can definitely be a touchy subject when overzealous posters express their very passionate positions, so keep that in mind if the conversation derails.

Fundamentally, I am not a fan of the magazine disconnect, but I also freely admit that in -most- of my S&W pistols, it doesn't bother me much. Emphasis on "MOST" because on my single action target pistols that do not have a thumb-decock, the magazine disconnect is MADDENING. Cannot drop a hammer in any way without a magazine and if you have loaded all your magazines the night before a range trip, this becomes a truly ludicrous situation where your options are:

1) damn, guess I leave it cocked
2) safely lower the hammer by stuffing a loaded mag in to an "empty" pistol?! (no! never!)
3) sigh, empty a loaded mag JUST to lower this damn hammer

If you regularly shoot the sweet Model 52 (or a 952) this struggle is real, not imagined.

So, what do I do? Well, because you do need to move the rear sight... all of mine remain intact. If it was easier to remove, I would yank them from my single action target guns that have no decocker but I would leave the others.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:24 PM
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Disconnect can be used as a "safety" device.
Leave firearm loaded with one in chamber. Remove magazine. Place firearm in desired location. Carry magazine in your pocket. To fire, insert magazine and pull trigger.
Obviously, and rightfully so, would be illegal in house with children.***
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:25 PM
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I don't feel strongly one way or the other, I can take them or leave them.

I generally remove them, just as a matter of course,,and sometimes it results in a better trigger, depending on the pistol.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:27 PM
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Remove. Not a fan,different strokes.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:32 PM
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[Sevens], I purchased this universal rear sight removal tool from eBay for a mere $45.
Univ Rear Sight Adjust Tool

What a nifty tool. Made removing and replacing the rear sight a cinch.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
I love them and wish every one of my guns had them. I don't envision needing to do a tactical reload while I'm being shot at. I doubt I would be that cool
Under pressure. I believe the benefits outweigh the negatives. They surely have saved lives and injury. Yet to hear of one instance where they were an actual liability, and not some fantasy.
Right there ^^^^. If I find myself in a situation where that one in the tube is the difference then I'm in over my head anyway and that disconnect is the least of my problems!
The implication is that I've exhausted (mostly) my initial mag, the problem isn't solved and I'm going for a tactical reload!!! Maybe I had better concentrate on just getting that next mag inserted...

Anyway...it's whatever makes you happy. I won't be taking mine out but that's JMHO.

P.S. There is always the fear of the legal implications of disabling a safety mechanism on a weapon involved in a shooting. That may be nothing...just sayin'.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:10 PM
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Don't you mean when the thread derails? For the record, I'm in favor, but understand that others don't. Also, like Arik, I don't completely trust any safety except the one between my ears.

No doubt someone will be along soon to tell us that if you use your modified no magazine safety 3rd Gen in self defense you'll go to prison for a long time. It happens every time this subject comes up.


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This can definitely be a touchy subject when overzealous posters express their very passionate positions, so keep that in mind if the conversation derails.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:22 PM
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I guess this is like 9mm vs .40......lol

For the record, I prefer .40.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:25 PM
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No doubt someone will be along soon to tell us that if you use your modified no magazine safety 3rd Gen in self defense you'll go to prison for a long time. It happens every time this subject comes up.

Too late...already came up...
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:30 PM
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I was typing too slowly!

Oh, round in chamber, safety off, if we get that far down the road.

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No doubt someone will be along soon to tell us that if you use your modified no magazine safety 3rd Gen in self defense you'll go to prison for a long time. It happens every time this subject comes up.

Too late...already came up...
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:46 PM
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Haha, again I refer to my actual "happens often, in the real world" predicament in comparison to the "lightning striking same spot twice during an eclipse" relativity of either being in the middle of a fire fight and needing the one chambered round but having no mag handy or the other scenario where bad guy is definitely in the process of taking your gun and yet you still have the small motor ability to push the mag release...

But that is part of the fun of these discussions.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
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For the record, I prefer .40.
.40 sux
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:06 PM
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My BHP had one I removed mainly because it made the trigger so bad.
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:35 PM
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I've had several Astra 400s and currently have a Star Modelo Super, all in 9mm Bergmann-Bayard (Largo). Both models use a trigger-blocking style of mag. safety rather than a disconnect, and I always preferred to defeat them, as I'd like to still be able to fire the piece if I lost the magazine somehow. In the Astra, it's a simple matter of removing the block and its spring, but the Star requires an internal part mod, as the MS also locks the takedown catch with the mag installed. To return to original, the MS must be replaced with an unmodified one.

Larry
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:12 AM
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Wouldn't the removal also make the slide slightly easier to rack?
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:47 AM
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Absolutely yes. It can be a lifesaver for peace officers.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:59 AM
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I am familiar with one incident where the mag safety played a key role. It involved a uniformed officer struggling with a subject resisting arrest. He was able to drop the mag during the fight over the weapon. It was actually part of our weapon retention training.
That feature also was important daily during pre-shift inspections. The mag was removed from the weapon while in the holster and held in the weak hand. The weapon was drawn with the strong hand and both presented to the inspecting supervisor. The weapon and mags were checked to confirm that they were present and properly loaded.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:06 AM
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If GaryS is truly in the medical emergency field, he should know better. That which dwells between our ears leads to the most departures from safe operation.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:06 PM
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I consider it a reasonable safety feature and give it no mind.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:38 PM
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As mentioned, on the Browning HP design, the disconnect can add a lot to the trigger pull. For that reason, I disabled it on my GP Competition. Otherwise, I'd leave it alone, especially if it's a carry weapon.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:44 PM
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I didn't say it was a perfect safety feature, I just said that it was the best safety feature!

Seriously, paying attention to what you are doing is the best safety feature.

BTW, I'm not very knowledgeable on the HP, so I have to ask. Is the magazine disconnect an original feature, or was it added in a later design update?

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If GaryS is truly in the medical emergency field, he should know better. That which dwells between our ears leads to the most departures from safe operation.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:45 PM
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I have three S&Ws with the magazine disconnect. Two of them I shoot in competition on occasion and have therefore removed the magazine safety. It makes clearing the weapon at the end of the course of fire MUCH easier and safer. I am reluctant to diddle with any safety device on a serious carry gun simply due to the possibility of a sleazebag lawyer or DA making an issue of it. Why give anti-gun psychos any extra angle on you if you don't have to?
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:54 PM
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They don't bother me , I leave them in place .
Seat belts in cars used to bother the heck out of me , I would take them out and hang them in the garage....but I'm older now and much wiser.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:56 PM
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Good question GaryS, don't know so checked google. With only a few exceptions all commercial hipowers have it. It felt like you were dragging the trigger across some sandpaper. Really a very noticeable difference.
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:14 PM
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So, there is a distinction between police/military HPs and commercial HPs. That's interesting.

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Good question GaryS, don't know so checked google. With only a few exceptions all commercial hipowers have it. It felt like you were dragging the trigger across some sandpaper. Really a very noticeable difference.
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Old 03-17-2017, 10:46 PM
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I guess I'm underzealous,.......I just don't care. Like everyone else I can make a ridiculous argument both for and against the mag disconnect safety but I can no longer convince myself that it matters. Back when I owned no pistols with the safety I 'thought' I couldn't stand them. Now that I have them I don't even think about it.

Still can't stand slide mounted dinguses and TDA,.........but nobody asked about that.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:01 PM
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BHP didn't have it when they were first made I believe.
Then, I believe in KISS!
None of my bottom feeders have it now and none will.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:04 PM
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Default I've never fought.....

I have never fought somebody for my gun, but if I did I'd like to have that feature. My 5943 has it and I like it more than dislike it.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:38 PM
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In a pistol with a decocker mechanism (such as most 3rd gen S&Ws), I like the added safety of a mag disconnect. For a single-action semi auto, not so much.

For those who do not like mag disconnects because they may not be able to fire that single chambered round when changing magazines: have you ever thought of the process that would need occur if that was done? The slide then closes on an empty chamber. A fresh mag would need to be inserted and then the slide manipulated to chamber a round.

Don't most people shoot the gun dry, then load a locked-open pistol? Can you really count your fired rounds during a gunfight to leave you with the last one in the chamber before changing magazines?
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firescout View Post
In a pistol with a decocker mechanism (such as most 3rd gen S&Ws), I like the added safety of a mag disconnect. For a single-action semi auto, not so much.

For those who do not like mag disconnects because they may not be able to fire that single chambered round when changing magazines: have you ever thought of the process that would need occur if that was done? The slide then closes on an empty chamber. A fresh mag would need to be inserted and then the slide manipulated to chamber a round.

Don't most people shoot the gun dry, then load a locked-open pistol? Can you really count your fired rounds during a gunfight to leave you with the last one in the chamber before changing magazines?
For the purposes of answering your question, I'll post this. No, you probably are not counting rounds during an exchange of gun fire with some bad guy. The purpose of swapping out a magazine during such an event would be to top off your weapon if there's time to do so from behind cover. Some refer to that as a "tactical reload" and a lot of police departments teach and practice that.

Edited to add: The mag with unknown rounds in it that you just removed, does not get discarded. It usually gets stuffed in a rear pocket as a last resort.

Last edited by Dregg; 03-19-2017 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dregg View Post
I have a few S&W pistols and all have the magazine disconnect feature. It's a feature I'm not a fan of and would like to remove it.

My question to the hive is, what do you guys normally do? Leave it or remove it ?
I carried one or another 3rd gen S&W as an issued duty weapon starting in '90, and I own several of them. All of them have the standard magazine disconnect/safety feature. I've neither felt it presented any particular risk, nor have I disabled it in any of my pistols.

As an armorer trained to repair and maintain 3rd gen pistols, I'm familiar with the design, function and normal operation.

Yes, I've heard all the usual arguments offered, for and against, by owners and enthusiasts ... and my personal 3rd gen's still have the original mag disconnect/safety feature.

Yes, S&W used to sell pistols to some agencies without the feature, at the specific request of an agency.

FWIW, the feature has been documented as having saved the lives of cops, but I'm unaware of a single instance where it was actually documented that the feature caused a cop his/her life, or contributed to injury. Mas can offer some similar insight, I believe.
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Last edited by Fastbolt; 03-19-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 08:28 PM
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Well, I was able to easily remove the mag disconnect in the rest of my 3rd gens. For me personally, I'd rather it this way.

I replaced the hammer bushing on a Ruger Mark 3 for the same reason, and also for the reason I didn't need to insert an empty mag in order to disassemble the pistol.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:05 PM
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I keep mine intact. The benefits of of having one outweigh the benefits/ risks of not having one. IMO. I have read/ researched both sides. I do not speak for SA Target shooters. I am speaking about any traditional pistols used in a tactical situation or carried in a Self defense situation.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:41 PM
Dregg Dregg is offline
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That's the beauty of it all. We all can't be the same.

I understand the reasons for wanting it, and don't mind people who do. I'm simply on the other side of the idea as to why it's better for me not to have it.

At least the convo was civil.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:01 PM
TercGen TercGen is offline
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I like the mag safety and leave them in all of my S&W 3rd Gens, but I see it as a matter of personal preference. The only thing I would say is that it's probably better to have all of your 3rd Gens in the same configuration to avoid any confusion.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:15 PM
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I like the idea that in the event of a struggle for your gun, you could eject the magazine and toss it so your assailant could not use your gun against you.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:25 PM
Dregg Dregg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyo5 View Post
I like the idea that in the event of a struggle for your gun, you could eject the magazine and toss it so your assailant could not use your gun against you.
I thought of this but at that point, it's hand to hand combat. Some people are better at hand to hand combat than others so with saying that, I'd want the ability to be able to send a round towards my threat should my mag somehow get ejected to the floor.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
I love them and wish every one of my guns had them. I don't envision needing to do a tactical reload while I'm being shot at. I doubt I would be that cool
Under pressure. I believe the benefits outweigh the negatives. They surely have saved lives and injury. Yet to hear of one instance where they were an actual liability, and not some fantasy.
I remember reading about an incident in California several years
ago. An officer was walking down the sidewalk. A 17 year old
ran up behind him and smacked him along side his head with
some kind of club. The officer fell to the ground, pulled his
pistol, which if remembering correctly was a Beretta M9 or 92,
and in his dazed condition hit the mag release instead of the
safety. Of course there was one in the barrel, but because of
the safety disconnector the gun would not fire.

It ended ok though. The officer pulled his bug, a snub nosed
.38, and killed the attacker.

That's the only time I have heard of a mag safety disconnector
being a liability.
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:49 AM
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As far as I know, all BHPs come with the mag disconnect. It was part of the orginal design and has stayed with the pistol. I own three of them and have removed the feature from all three. Made a difference to the trigger. I also own three S&Ws: 39-2, 915 and a 952-2. They all came with the feature and still retain it. The S&W design doesn't seem to effect the trigger as badly as it did on the BHP.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fordson View Post
As far as I know, all BHPs come with the mag disconnect. It was part of the orginal design and has stayed with the pistol. I own three of them and have removed the feature from all three. Made a difference to the trigger. I also own three S&Ws: 39-2, 915 and a 952-2. They all came with the feature and still retain it. The S&W design doesn't seem to effect the trigger as badly as it did on the BHP.
Different design.

The ejector depressor plunger (nylon plunger and spring) pushes the ejector down, and therefore the disconnector down, which pushes the drawbar down and disconnects it from the hammer (DA) and sear (SA).

When a magazine is present, the left lip lifting the ejector against the ejector depressor plunger and its spring, the trigger functions the gun normally in both DA & SA.
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:23 PM
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Haha, for anyone that has ever owned a Hi-Power, you have seen how oddball that pistols links the trigger to the sear. It's nothing whatsoever like amy other handgun that I have ever seen and right along with that, the BHP magazine disconnect safety is also like nothing I have ever seen, ever.

The existence of BHP "mouse-trap" magazines reinforce the idea that nothing about a BHP system is typical or familiar.

Actually, now that I think about it-- the Hi-Power seems like it might be blood-related to modern striker fire pistols. The BHP has a hammer of course, but the trigger interacts with the underside of the slide to eventually trip the sear, something that most hammer-fired semiauto pistols don't do.
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Old 04-08-2017, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
I have three S&Ws with the magazine disconnect. Two of them I shoot in competition on occasion and have therefore removed the magazine safety. It makes clearing the weapon at the end of the course of fire MUCH easier and safer. I am reluctant to diddle with any safety device on a serious carry gun simply due to the possibility of a sleazebag lawyer or DA making an issue of it. Why give anti-gun psychos any extra angle on you if you don't have to?
And it happens, because I remember being involved in such a case in the People's Republic of Maryland back when I was still practicing. A careless neighbor accidently shot and killed the plaintiffs' son with a FEG pistol, which is an exact copy of the Browning High Power. In their presumed grief, they sued everybody in sight, including my firm's client, a major firearms manufacturer. Their claim was that our client manufactured an unsafe gun that could fire without the magazine in it, or in the alternative the magazine disconnect didn't work and allowed the gun to fire without the magazine in it. I normally didn't work on product safety cases but I contacted the litigation attorney to volunteer my expertise, which I later heard put a chill into opposing counsel. I got to examine the gun to confirm that it was not manufactured by our client and establish that the magazine disconnector worked. On the motion to dismiss, I swore out an affidavit that I was an expert on firearms by reason of 40 years in competitive shooting and declared that 1) our client had not produced any kind of standard handgun since World War II 2) the handgun was a copy of a long respected handgun design 3) the handgun was of quality manufacture as evidenced by its steel frame and 4) every safety device on the handgun in question was in working order. Our client got dismissed from the case without having to appear in court at all.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:37 AM
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My two cents. I was trained on the 5946 with the mag disconnect. I like the feature. Also carried the Safariland SSIII double retention holster. I have had people grab my gun while fighting but never lost it. I had in my mind though if I thought I was gonna lose it I would eject the mag and go straight to the Model 60 on my ankle. Side note when MPD went to the Sig 229 .40 10years ago they requested and were the first Dept to get a Magazine Disconnect on a Sig Pistol. Double side note the mag disconnect on the Sig has a slight failure rate so now they are being removed and all Officers are being retrained.
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