LE Agency purchase of 3rd Gen Smiths

[Hawgleg44]

I know years ago, after S&W discontinued production of their metal pistols for those plastic toys, LE agencies could still purchase some models. Does anyone know if this is still an option, or has that practice been discontinued? Currently, we are issued M&P .40's and we will be replacing them next year, definitely with something else. If the 3rd Gen Smiths are no longer available it looks like we will swap to Sig.

[dmb]

Not sure if the RCMP still gets any new 5946's. I know one specialized unit recently converted to Glock 19's, so the writing could be on the wall.

[triaxle]

How have the Smith M/P line worked out for you guys . A lot are going with the Sig 320 full and Carry in 9mm, it sounded like you did not care for the Smiths ??????????

[18DAI]

IIRC s&w told NYPD no more 5946s or 3914DAOs. I think the odds are slim that they would make anything for your agency.

Locally, the Guilford County Sheriffs department is dumping the m&p45 and going back to Glocks. The two local police deparments have gone to Sig 320s.

Good luck! Enjoy those new Sigs! Regards 18DAI

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by Hawgleg44

If the 3rd Gen Smiths are no longer available it looks like we will swap to Sig.

Originally Posted by 18DAI

Good luck! Enjoy those new Sigs! Regards 18DAI

LOL!!! Yeah, I think it would take quite a large agency order to convince the mothership to get back into 3rd Gen production again. They would be kicking and screaming and begging and practically giving away their newest M2.0 plastic wonder gun alternatives before calling up Houlton and telling them to please start-up the 3rd Gen production line once again!

When you have bet the entire gazillion dollar farm (i.e., the US cop market) on a plastic future, going backwards to the all-metal past would likely be too hard a corporate pill to swallow.

So enjoy those Sigs! Hell, even 3rd Gen collector moi has turned to all-metal Sigs since I can't buy brand new S&W 3rd Gens anymore. And they are pretty damn nice guns.

[Hawgleg44]

That's too bad. The best DA/SA trigger pulls gone forever.

We have not had any failures with the M&Ps but we are going back to DA/SA pistols. Not only does the chief prefer them but the officers are in favor of it too.

Another agency near us just swapped out their Sigs and went with the Glock 19. The 320 was preferred in testing but they felt it was too new at the time and were afraid of another Sigma issue where it took years to get a model that ran right.

If I had to guess now I'd say it will be either a P229 or 2022 we end up with. If I get to choose, which will probably be the case, it will be the 2022.

[18DAI]

It is too bad. Several years back the West Virginia State Police wanted more 4566s. The current company posing as s&w told them no. Buy the m&p. WVSP said thanks we will go with Glock instead.

So, s&w made them a 750 unit batch of Melonite 4566TSWs with integral rails and decock only. It may be worth your while to contact the LE reps at s&w and tell them what you would like.

With their competitiors eating their lunch in the LE market and a shrinking market overall, you may find someone with an ounce of sense who can see the not too distant future. Regards 18DAI

[HCH]

[QUOTE=18DAI;139531928] It may be worth your while to contact the LE reps at s&w and tell them what you would like./QUOTE]

Yes, please do this and let us know their response.

[GaryS]

I've owned both a Glock and an M&P 9c. Neither can hold a candle to my 3913s, 6906, or 5906.

And for 18DAI I'll throw in my 457 and 3914NL.

On a different forum someone posted that S&W has a rebate going on for some Shield models. I suggested he'd get a better firearm by buying a CS9 or 3913.

Which brings to mind a quote from a spokesman for Volvo back in the early 1970s. That's when American companies were offering huge rebates on their cars.

The quote was something like, "When you make a good product, you don't have to pay people to buy them."

Originally Posted by 18DAI

It is too bad. Several years back the West Virginia State Police wanted more 4566s. The current company posing as s&w told them no. Buy the m&p. WVSP said thanks we will go with Glock instead.

So, s&w made them a 750 unit batch of Melonite 4566TSWs with integral rails and decock only. It may be worth your while to contact the LE reps at s&w and tell them what you would like.

With their competitiors eating their lunch in the LE market and a shrinking market overall, you may find someone with an ounce of sense who can see the not too distant future. Regards 18DAI

[hkcavalier]

Man, I figured you 3rd Gen lovers would have gone toward the Lionheart guns, since they're definitely a "product improved" S&W.

[GaryS]

There aren't that many pictures at the website, but from what I've seen, they do look a lot like the 3rd Gen guns. Sadly, we'll never see them in the PRM. OTOH, if I ever tunnel my way out, it might be a good option.

I see that they went back to the 2nd Gen style grips, which is a plus to me.

It looks like both versions are double stack. A single stack ala the 3913 would be very nice. The price point is attractive, especially if the guns are as reliable as a 3rd Gen.

Originally Posted by hkcavalier

Man, I figured you 3rd Gen lovers would have gone toward the Lionheart guns, since they're definitely a "product improved" S&W.

[AlHunt]

Originally Posted by GaryS

There aren't that many pictures at the website, but from what I've seen, they do look a lot like the 3rd Gen guns. Sadly, we'll never see them in the PRM. OTOH, if I ever tunnel my way out, it might be a good option.

I see that they went back to the 2nd Gen style grips, which is a plus to me.

It looks like both versions are double stack. A single stack ala the 3913 would be very nice. The price point is attractive, especially if the guns are as reliable as a 3rd Gen.

But that awful, awful, gigantic square trigger guard ...

[GaryS]

I can live with that. That might mean that it was originally designed for military sales. The large trigger guard says to me that someone planned on the guns being shot with gloves on.

Originally Posted by AlHunt

But that awful, awful, gigantic square trigger guard ...

[Fastbolt]

Last I was told, S&W corporate finally decided that all new production of 3rd gen metal pistols has ceased. No more NYPD or RCMP guns, even for those longtime S&W agency customers.

I didn't jot it down in my notes, but I thought I remember being told (in my last armorer recert) that there are maybe a half dozen, or less, large LE agency customers still using the metal 3rd gens. Also, one of those major agencies has reportedly recently placed an order for M&P 40's to replace their TSW's. Since I haven't seen it announced on the company website, so I'll let the naming of the agency await an official announcement from the company or the agency.

The 3rd gen/TSW guns are simply not profitable enough for the company to continue making, even having been shifted to the Houlton plant (where the SW1911's, .22's & handcuffs take up all that machine time).

As it was said, how many LE agencies are going to be willing to pay the LE price of $1000 for a metal gun (for the company to make even a minimal profit), when they can buy two plastic guns for less?

Sure, SIG is going to continue to help satisfy the existing commercial market for metal guns (especially with their gun-of-the-month fancy model variations, and the 10mm), but don't be surprised if the LE sales may continue to diminish. Why else would they have launched their P250 as the tentative service pistol "flagship" a few years ago, only to see the writing on the wall and create their striker-fired P320 model?

While I too would REALLY like to see S&W at least continue a small production capability of the 3rd gen's, I'd not be willing to pay the cost of a commercially retailed 3rd gen, or even a much lower $1000 LE price. I'd sooner buy another 1911 for that kind of money ... or a couple plastic pistols which will run fine for many years.

[MWater]

Originally Posted by GaryS

I see that they went back to the 2nd Gen style grips, which is a plus to me.

They didn't really "go back" to the 2-gen style grips--the K5/DP51 (and hence LH9) are simply derived from the 2nd gen with quite a few modifications.

Originally Posted by AlHunt

But that awful, awful, gigantic square trigger guard ...

You're going to need thick gloves for Korean winter.

I picked up a basic LH9 on black friday the year before last for $400. For that, it's a no-brainer. Even with the differences, I think it's the closest thing to a *new* metal S&W pistol.

I would love a compact, single-stack version of it, but Lionheart are just importers. I think the pattern on the grips is the extent of their technical skills.

[GaryS]

Ahhh. I made the mistake of reading into the comments. Still, they do have the 2nd/3rd Gen look to them. Which isn't a bad thing.

Originally Posted by MWater

They didn't really "go back" to the 2-gen style grips--the K5/DP51 (and hence LH9) are simply derived from the 2nd gen with quite a few modifications.

It seems that these are actually made by Daewoo, which means that they were probably made for the S. Korean military. Which probably means no single stack version is in the future. I can dream, though, can't I?

You're going to need thick gloves for Korean winter.

I picked up a basic LH9 on black friday the year before last for $400. For that, it's a no-brainer. Even with the differences, I think it's the closest thing to a *new* metal S&W pistol.

I would love a compact, single-stack version of it, but Lionheart are just importers. I think the pattern on the grips is the extent of their technical skills.

[TNZ71]

Originally Posted by hkcavalier

Man, I figured you 3rd Gen lovers would have gone toward the Lionheart guns, since they're definitely a "product improved" S&W.

Yes the Lionheart is derived from Daewoo K5 DP51 that was imported a short time in the 90s. Lots of similarities and the magazines are interchangeable with 5900 series Smiths

[GaryS]

Are the compact series magazine interchangeable with the 69xx series?

I read a bit of history of the design. It's been around since the late 1980s and was sold commercially in the US by a number of companies.

I like that double action plus design, but I'm unsure about not magazine safety. Of course while I like magazine safeties, I never completely trust them. "Trust, but verify" as Pres. Reagan used to say.

Originally Posted by TNZ71

Yes the Lionheart is derived from Daewoo K5 DP51 that was imported a short time in the 90s. Lots of similarities and the magazines are interchangeable with 5900 series Smiths

[MWater]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Are the compact series magazine interchangeable with the 69xx series?

It appears so. They'll stick out a bit:



I don't have a compact, but the 69xx mags are just a bit too short for the full-size version and the 59xx mags stick out a good bit.

[S&W Rover]

The irony is that it would cost less now than it did 15-20 years ago to make a 3rd Generation pistol. Everybody went polymer and adopted simple striker designs to cut machining costs and the number of parts in a pistol, based on manufacturing technologies of the times -- either led by Glock or imitating Glock.

But with CNC machining, and subcontracting and "just in time" delivery of sub-components (springs, screws, etc.), a 3rd Generation S&W could be reasonably priced! OR somewhat reasonably priced, albeit not as cheap as a polymer pistol with a striker about as complex as a ball-point pen. But the lower cost of manufacturing by CNC is one reason why we see so many variants of the 1911 being made (or finished) by so many companies, and these are being sold for $500 and up. Indeed, there are many versions of the classic Sigs now for the same reason, although Sig-Sauer is selling them for $800-900 and up.

It is noteworthy that Sig-Sauer, while continuing with the P-classics, is building a very good striker-fired pistol and, based on the military contract, may also sell a lot of them to LE and private sales. And Sig-Sauer is selling the P-320 to the US Army for $208 per pistol!

Could S&W make a 5906 or 3913 for the modern market? Could TDA pistols -- an inherently superior design, based on practical accuracy and safety factors -- make a comeback? The market is shrinking and it would be hard to get LE to go back to a heavy, all metal pistol -- but most of all, what would make these pistols worth the extra price?

Any new all-metal pistol would have to have exceptional accuracy and reliability to get a share of the high end market, which probably means being a player in competition shooting -- like CZ has become with all-metal pistols. And it has to be a labor of love by the company that makes it. And it would involve a long-term commitment to build them, perfect them, and offer maintenance support for them for a long while. $1000 for a new 5906? I just bought a pretty good used on for less than half of that.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

Sure, SIG is going to continue to help satisfy the existing commercial market for metal guns (especially with their gun-of-the-month fancy model variations, and the 10mm), but don't be surprised if the LE sales may continue to diminish. Why else would they have launched their P250 as the tentative service pistol "flagship" a few years ago, only to see the writing on the wall and create their striker-fired P320 model?

Because the 250 was a good idea but a gigantic failure. While many people don't have problems shooting occasionally, the FBI reliability tests were horrible. Gun chocked a lot and none made it to high round counts

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[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Arik

Because the 250 was a good idea but a gigantic failure. While many people don't have problems shooting occasionally, the FBI reliability tests were horrible. Gun chocked a lot and none made it to high round counts

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At least the frame rails didn't fall off like my P226

[BigDaddy7972]

I thought that the RCMP carried the Sig 226 DAK? Or at least the SWAT team did.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by ladder13

At least the frame rails didn't fall off like my P226

That's the other thing. Sig has been riding their reputation from the 80s and 90s. Unfortunately for about a decade between 04 and 14 their guns were 50/50. Either you got lucky and got a good one (or you didn't shoot enough) or you gun unlucky and got complete garbage. Secret Service dropped them when frames started to crack and snap at under 5k rounds. Other departments​ started dropping them when other things started breaking at low round counts. Their QC has gone up with a new CEO

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[TTSH]

Originally Posted by S&W Rover

The market is shrinking and it would be hard to get LE to go back to a heavy, all metal pistol -- but most of all, what would make these pistols worth the extra price?

LE isn't going to give up on plastic. It's cheap, it's light and it works. Or at least it works well enough. And did I mention... it's dirt cheap?

Originally Posted by ladder13

At least the frame rails didn't fall off like my P226

What the heck??? Do tell. I love mine dearly but that problem does not sound too appetizing.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by TTSH

LE isn't going to give up on plastic. It's cheap, it's light and it works. Or at least it works well enough. And did I mention... it's dirt cheap?


What the heck??? Do tell. I love mine dearly but that problem does not sound too appetizing.

My German Sig 226, the frame rails separated from the frame after less than 200 rds. Kind of weird standing there with a rattling gun in your hand.
Took the slide off and the rails fell to the ground. Cheap pot metal I suppose.
Allegedly there was an issue with substandard metal.
That was enough for me, first and last Sig for me. To their credit Sig relaced the gun, which I have not fired in about 20 years, I should just off the thing.

Arik mentioned other issues, Sig has a long history of problems. Maybe they should pay people to buy their guns.

The cold hard truth, just like fastbolts post.

[StickShift]

Originally Posted by hkcavalier

Man, I figured you 3rd Gen lovers would have gone toward the Lionheart guns, since they're definitely a "product improved" S&W.

The Daewoos are interesting guns, and the old DP51 I handled last year was quite nice despite being older than I am, but I was turned off by the triple action. It adds another layer of complexity for minimal benefit. If they sold it with a safety only (like a CZ) or decocker only, I think they'd get some attention, but for the time being they're too obscure for most people to risk buying one.

That being said, I'm pretty heavily invested in CZs now. With S&W abandoning the market, SIG selling gimmicky, overpriced special editions that STILL have the slide stop in the wrong spot, and Berettas not fitting my hands, CZs are the best choice on the market. If S&W brought 59xxs back for $1k-$1200, I'd buy one, but that won't happen.

[Hawgleg44]

Thanks for all the replies. One agency I do the firearms instruction and qualifications for allows their officers to carry anything reasonable in from 9mm to .45acp. For that agency I use a 229 in .357 Sig. The chief carries a 5906.

After showing the other agency the 229 and 2022, I see the MP40's being dumped for one of them, probably the SigPro.

Yes,mother P250 was a horrible failure. I know one field office of the FAM swapped from the 229 in .357 so the 250 and had horrible results. I'm not sold on the 320 yet since it's nothing but a 250 that's striker fired instead of DAO. I've only fired around 400-500 rounds out of a 320 so it's way too early for me to form an opinion yet. To be honest my opinion won't be completely unbiased since I prefer DA/SA pistols now. I spent almost 20 years with Glocks but going back to DA/SA actually improved my split times and didn't change my first shot on target times at all.

If that Lionheart thing is derived from the Daewoo K-whatever 51, no thanks. Those pieces of, well, you know what I want to say, have a trigger even worse than one of those Israeli Jerichos!

[Stargater]

Originally Posted by Fastbolt

Last I was told, S&W corporate finally decided that all new production of 3rd gen metal pistols has ceased. ...

The 3rd gen/TSW guns are simply not profitable enough for the company to continue making, even having been shifted to the Houlton plant (where the SW1911's, .22's & handcuffs take up all that machine time).

Quite true.

Steel guns are expensive to produce (as anyone who's tried to buy a quality 1911 can attest). Soon it would cost close to a grand to produce, market and ship a well made steel DA gun. These ugly plastic striker-fired pistols that look like 1960s squirt guns are a turn-off. Remember all the TV shows and movies that used 2nd and 3rd gen S&W autopistols just because they showed up well on screen and were beautiful? Soon they're going to have to put the guns in paper bags!

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by ladder13

My German Sig 226, the frame rails separated from the frame after less than 200 rds. Kind of weird standing there with a rattling gun in your hand. Took the slide off and the rails fell to the ground. Cheap pot metal I suppose.

Allegedly there was an issue with substandard metal. That was enough for me, first and last Sig for me. To their credit Sig replaced the gun, which I have not fired in about 20 years, I should just off the thing.

Arik mentioned other issues, Sig has a long history of problems. Maybe they should pay people to buy their guns.

The cold hard truth, just like Fastbolt's post.

Oh, that is not good news. Poor old TTSH has already started down the Sig rabbit hole and is accelerating as we speak. Yes, cheap disposable plastic has its place and I did recently pick-up a Shield .45, but all-metal is my thing. So where the heck is an all-metal guy supposed to turn these days? I have pretty much exhausted the used 3rd Gen thing (at least from a practical standpoint and in a highly-restricted state). I have my Berettas... I have my 1911's... I even picked up a CZ 75BD the other day (not easy or cheap to do in moonbat Massachusetts). If not Sig, then what comes next???

[petepeterson]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Oh, that is not good news. Poor old TTSH has already started down the Sig rabbit hole and is accelerating as we speak. Yes, cheap disposable plastic has its place and I did recently pick-up a Shield .45, but all-metal is my thing. So where the heck is an all-metal guy supposed to turn these days? I have pretty much exhausted the used 3rd Gen thing (at least from a practical standpoint and in a highly-restricted state). I have my Berettas... I have my 1911's... I even picked up a CZ 75BD the other day (not easy or cheap to do in moonbat Massachusetts). If not Sig, then what comes next???

Browning Hi-Powers- and lots of them!

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by petepeterson

Browning Hi-Powers- and lots of them!

Ha!!! And have you tried to buy one lately? Let's forget the fact that they are banned in Massachusetts for sale or transfer by dealers (except for guns which were in-state pre-'98) and just focus on current availability of new or slightly used ones anywhere. THEY PRACTICALLY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE. I've visited dozens of dealers in RI and NH and not one of them had one in stock. I did find 3 of them in MA. Two were rusty old WWII relics for staggering money and one was just an over-priced post-war version... that came with a horrible trigger and numerous spots of corrosion as a bonus.

Yes, a C&R License would help, but that is at least a year away. I'll get it once we are settled in at our retirement place.

Brand new ones are still available for ordering but in only two models: Traditional with adjustable sights and Mk III with fixed sights. Same price for each (about $1K) but not sure which way I'd go if I could find a dealer who was willing to transfer one in.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Oh, that is not good news. Poor old TTSH has already started down the Sig rabbit hole and is accelerating as we speak. Yes, cheap disposable plastic has its place and I did recently pick-up a Shield .45, but all-metal is my thing. So where the heck is an all-metal guy supposed to turn these days? I have pretty much exhausted the used 3rd Gen thing (at least from a practical standpoint and in a highly-restricted state). I have my Berettas... I have my 1911's... I even picked up a CZ 75BD the other day (not easy or cheap to do in moonbat Massachusetts). If not Sig, then what comes next???

I wouldn't worry about it. They all had or have problems. CZ had problems too.

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[Arik]

Originally Posted by Hawgleg44

Thanks for all the replies. One agency I do the firearms instruction and qualifications for allows their officers to carry anything reasonable in from 9mm to .45acp. For that agency I use a 229 in .357 Sig. The chief carries a 5906.

After showing the other agency the 229 and 2022, I see the MP40's being dumped for one of them, probably the SigPro.

Yes,mother P250 was a horrible failure. I know one field office of the FAM swapped from the 229 in .357 so the 250 and had horrible results. I'm not sold on the 320 yet since it's nothing but a 250 that's striker fired instead of DAO. I've only fired around 400-500 rounds out of a 320 so it's way too early for me to form an opinion yet. To be honest my opinion won't be completely unbiased since I prefer DA/SA pistols now. I spent almost 20 years with Glocks but going back to DA/SA actually improved my split times and didn't change my first shot on target times at all.

If that Lionheart thing is derived from the Daewoo K-whatever 51, no thanks. Those pieces of, well, you know what I want to say, have a trigger even worse than one of those Israeli Jerichos!

I don't know exactly what was changed and I have no interest in buying a 320 but it's been out long enough and tested enough to have set a good standard by now

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[Arik]

Originally Posted by Stargater

Quite true.

Steel guns are expensive to produce (as anyone who's tried to buy a quality 1911 can attest). Soon it would cost close to a grand to produce, market and ship a well made steel DA gun. These ugly plastic striker-fired pistols that look like 1960s squirt guns are a turn-off. Remember all the TV shows and movies that used 2nd and 3rd gen S&W autopistols just because they showed up well on screen and were beautiful? Soon they're going to have to put the guns in paper bags!

So it wasn't because thats what was a available in quantity at the time and the armories that supplied the studios happened to have them!!!!!

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[ladder13]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Oh, that is not good news. Poor old TTSH has already started down the Sig rabbit hole and is accelerating as we speak. Yes, cheap disposable plastic has its place and I did recently pick-up a Shield .45, but all-metal is my thing. So where the heck is an all-metal guy supposed to turn these days? I have pretty much exhausted the used 3rd Gen thing (at least from a practical standpoint and in a highly-restricted state). I have my Berettas... I have my 1911's... I even picked up a CZ 75BD the other day (not easy or cheap to do in moonbat Massachusetts). If not Sig, then what comes next???

Not to worry, as Arik pointed out they all have or have had issues. We get them fixed or get rid of them, but are honest enough to point out the imperfections.
You're doing fine.

Isn't a 320 striker fired?

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by Arik

I wouldn't worry about it. They all had or have problems. CZ had problems too.

I'm not sure that makes me feel any better.

I've already got a P226 and a P229 and I'm "semi-committed" on a Sig .45 next month... either a P220 Compact or a P227.

Where is a 3rd Gen collector supposed to turn to when he runs out of 3rd Gen models?

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Where is a 3rd Gen collector supposed to turn to when he runs out of 3rd Gen models?

You have them all?




Pretty good for a "noob"

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by ladder13

Not to worry, as Arik pointed out they all have or have had issues. We get them fixed or get rid of them, but are honest enough to point out the imperfections. You're doing fine.

Isn't a 320 striker fired?

Yes, the P320 is striker-fired. It's the one new Sig I have no interest in. I even like the SP2022 despite it being a disposable plastic wonder gun.

Anyway, you should have warned me about Sig before I started buying them! What were you thinking?

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Yes, the P320 is striker-fired. It's the one new Sig I have no interest in. I even like the SP2022 despite it being a disposable plastic wonder gun.

Anyway, you should have warned me about Sig before I started buying them! What were you thinking?

A Shield and looking at a SP2022? I'd keep that quiet if I were you.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by ladder13

You have them all?

Pretty good for a "noob"

Moi a noob??? I guess that depends on how you define a noob! At nearly 67 years old and having started collecting Smith & Wessons at the age of 26, most people would just call me a silly old man with barely three "good years" left to finish up his collection.

Do I have them all? Of course not. But given where I live and given the fact that very few new candidates for acquisition have shown up in the last 12 months, it was time to move on. I have most of the basics covered. Yes, I am still lacking in the "highly-sought-after" categories (including PC guns) but you can't buy what's not here and what can't be legally imported in.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by ladder13

A Shield and looking at a SP2022? I'd keep that quiet if I were you.

Okay wise guy! Now you are just making fun of a poor old man who has already admitted many times that sometimes cheap, disposable, plastic wonder guns still make sense in certain situations.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by TTSH

I'm not sure that makes me feel any better.

I've already got a P226 and a P229 and I'm "semi-committed" on a Sig .45 next month... either a P220 Compact or a P227.

Where is a 3rd Gen collector supposed to turn to when he runs out of 3rd Gen models?

Well.....Show me one brand that hasn't

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[ladder13]

Originally Posted by TTSH

Okay wise guy! Now you are just making fun of a poor old man who has already admitted many times that sometimes cheap, disposable, plastic wonder guns still make sense in certain situations.

You sound like a prudent, independent thinker.

[TTSH]

Originally Posted by ladder13

You sound like a prudent, independent thinker.

And a ripe, old "seasoned senior citizen" too!

[MWater]

Originally Posted by TTSH

all-metal is my thing. So where the heck is an all-metal guy supposed to turn these days?

There are lots of options from foreign lands (well, maybe for people who aren't in MA, anyway). For folks who just want metal guns, you can take your chances with quite a variety of them imported from Turkey and the like. EAA and ATI import a lot of interesting metal. There's even a steel frame option right now in the K2-45 (based on the CZ 75).

As to the topic of metal-framed guns from American manufacturers, I whole-heartedly agree that they *could* make metal guns cheaper now than ever, and they wouldn't cost *that* much more than plastic guns. But people have been convinced that plastic is better, not cheaper. So they're not going to pay more for guns that they think are inferior.

I see the industry turning in the same direction as beer, though. With the accessibility of CNC machining, I think we'll see more and more boutique firearms production--basically microbreweries for guns. We're already seeing that with stuff like ARs, but I think we'll be seeing it with pistols as well, with companies springing up to churn out classic designs that are no longer in production.

[GaryS]

You're ONLY 67!?

Originally Posted by TTSH

Moi a noob??? I guess that depends on how you define a noob! At nearly 67 years old and having started collecting Smith & Wessons at the age of 26, most people would just call me a silly old man with barely three "good years" left to finish up his collection.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by MWater

As to the topic of metal-framed guns from American manufacturers, I whole-heartedly agree that they *could* make metal guns cheaper now than ever, and they wouldn't cost *that* much more than plastic guns. But people have been convinced that plastic is better, not cheaper. So they're not going to pay more for guns that they think are inferior.

.

I don't know who has been convinced of what but personally the ONLY thing that convinces me is reliability. If both are equally reliable then it comes down to price and other factors like weight, size, mag capacity and parts availability.

If both have no problems with high round counts then they are both equal to me. In that case I'd buy the cheaper one. In the cheaper category I'll buy used over new 99% of the time. If the price is about the same then I'd buy the one that weighs less. In the end it's about use

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[Daedalus-NC]

Originally Posted by GaryS

Which brings to mind a quote from a spokesman for Volvo back in the early 1970s. That's when American companies were offering huge rebates on their cars.

The quote was something like, "When you make a good product, you don't have to pay people to buy them."

And, sorry to say, I did. A 1970 mustard yellow 145S wagon. Lesson learned. Dual Zenith-Stromberg sidedraft (I think) carbs on a 4 cyl engine are reserved for the third ring of hell or those who enjoy pain!

[GaryS]

I think the color was your first mistake. I forget if the 140 series had a six cylinder option. It might have been the bigger series.

I was much more into cars back then, and I remember that one big weak spot was the alternator on those cars. Another was that they were underpowered. At one time, there was a company in Maine that offered a conversion from the OEM engine to a small block Ford engine.

I knew a guy that had a 145 and the hatch mounted antenna frequently needed it's cable replaced because the opening and closing caused that cable to fail.

Then again, Volvo is still in business, while poor Saab is a memory.

Ahh, the good old days.

Originally Posted by Daedalus-NC

And, sorry to say, I did. A 1970 mustard yellow 145S wagon. Lesson learned. Dual Zenith-Stromberg sidedraft (I think) carbs on a 4 cyl engine are reserved for the third ring of hell or those who enjoy pain!