I carried a S&W 5906 on duty for 6 years. It was a realiable, accurate weapon. I was not a fan of the double action/single action trigger or the magazine disconnect....but that was more of a personal than functional issue.

I have been carry a Glock 17 on duty for 17 years. It does everything just as reliable and accurately as the 5906 did. It weighs less, significantly less enough to be noticeable while on duty, and gives me 6 more rounds of ammunition in a basic LEO three magazine load out. Both pluses over the 5906. The Glock is not as fancy/pretty as the 5906, but again that is more personal than functional.

To the OP's question....I have friends that work for a department that held on to the S&W 5906 until 2012. They now carry the Glock 17 and 19. What drove the change was the cost of keeping the 5906 running, both in replacement parts and new replacement firearms. The cost of a new in box 5906 in 2012 was north of $900 (and I don't think S&W was really making any money on the sell), and the wait time was dependent on when the Houlton plant did their once year run of 3rd gen pistols. When the city manager asked the question "What does it cost for one of those guns (Glock 22) the Sheriff's Department carries?" Well, that ended the 5906's life for the department.

Like many have said. The 3rd gem Smiths are fine weapons, and to the eye of a gun enthusiast worth every penny it cost to produce one. But to those who are wedded to working guns three things matter..... 1.) Reliability, 2.) Durability, and 3.) Cost drive the train. While the 5906 shines in #1 and #2.....it falls short in #3. And while there are probably some departments who could absorb the cost of an expensive sidearm, the numbers are so few that they don't tip the scale for S&W to have any concern over. Alas, as far as LE is concerned I believe the 3rd Gen S&W pistol has gone the way of the revolver, and now is a symbol of days past in LE history. As always, YMMV.

I know it's hard to believe because I look like 87, I feel like 87, I think like 87... and I'm pretty sure my doctor's assessment is that I might actually be 87.

Lol........We have had almost 10 years of problems with the full size M & P 45. Just never consistently ran well for us. The entire agency has swapped guns multiple times.

Transition to the Glock 17 starts at the end of the month.

Been in a training class all week with agencies literally from the coast to the mountains......All Glocks and SIGs.....We were the only ones toting the M & P.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

"....we were the only ones toting the m&p..." Not for long! Congrats my friend!

Guilford County Sheriff is dumping the m&p 45 too. They are going back to Glocks. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

As long as you're young at heart!

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Can open, worms everywhere.

A few years back, the MA State Police swapped out their Sigs (.40) I forget the model, for the M&P 45. I haven't heard of any problems, but it being MA, I'm sure that S&W would fix any problems quickly and quietly.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

What would be the difference what state they are in?

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A W German marked Sig 220. GARY

S&W is based in MA. In case you forgot. It would be quite embarrassing for the state police to publicly have problems with the M&P pistols which are made in MA.

Most LE agencies in MA use Glocks, which must burn the folks at S&W to no end.

It would be like the Detroit PD driving Camrys.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Not quite the direction you where going, but what are your thoughts on HKs?
The USP line is excellent. The P30s are excellent too.
Yes polymer and hammer fired. Very high quality.

I love my LE trade in USP 45. GARY

Whether the Detroit PD drives a Ford Crown Vic, Chevy Impala, or Dodge Charger, none were made in the USA. GARY

Maybe I don't know what all goes into making third gen guns but I find it hard to believe they can't do it. I think s&w just doesn't want to.
Other companies make metal and alloy framed guns and turn a profit.
Companies are still making 1911s of all price ranges. Even s&w makes 1911s.
S&W thinks they can't make it work.
Great opportunity missed.
I do not have a problem with the M&P but they are not better, cheaper sure but not better.
I am not the biggest fan of slide mounted safeties but the gun are great quality. It's really a shame.
Ok sorry my rant is over.

Same here and both my LE trade in USP 9s

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It would be no more or less embarrassing, if at all, then any other agency having problems.

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Not really turning much of a profit if most are adding polymer guns and sending those in for testing.

1911s aren't made in great numbers, there's just a lot of manufacturers making them so it seems like there's a lot of them.



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MSP went from a DA/SA .40 P226 without the equipment rail to a railed .40 P226 with that horrible DAK trigger because too many Troopers were too dumb to decock their pistols before reholstering on the range. I can only imagine what was happening with the Troopers involved in shootings with the added stress if they couldn't remember to decock on the firing range.

MSP now carries the mid size MP45, but I was just told they are beginning research to swap back to a Sig, my guess would be the 320. Why back to Sig? This is what several Troopers told me:

They stayed with Sig even after the trigger bar issues in their 226's because the LE salesman making the deal was a retired Trooper, so Sig was the best pistol on Earth. That same salesman left Sig and was hired at S&W, so suddenly Sig was a steaming pile of dog **** and S&W was God's gift to the MSP. Now I hear that same salesman moved back to Sig and suddenly he has nothing good to say about S&W anymore.

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Will work for ammo.

I'm not the least bit surprised. I am a bit surprised to find that there is a retired statie that didn't move to Florida.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Anyone know what NHSP use?

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Sure you did

You would expect them to carry Sigs but I believe it's the HK USP instead.

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Will work for ammo.

The latest info I could find goes back to 2007- 2012 and lists the M&P45

Here's an article from 2015 and M&P are visible
State police major charged | New Hampshire


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Sig must be pissed.

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Sure you did

Doubt it. They're all international. I don't see Glock carrying what ATL/Georgia carries. And I don't think Tennessee switched to Beretta just because they moved. MD state police carry G22 despite being the home of Beretta....etc

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Yes, exactly. Does FHP carry Taurus?

Glock wins most times because of what CQB27 stated.

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Sure you did

I'm getting this vibe from several folks... i.e., that West German all-metal Sigs are great but American-made ones are junk.

Anybody want to tell me which currently offered models are still made in West Germany and available to buy here in the USA? I'll worry about the MA-compliant thing later.

I think you need to live in the crazy moonbat state of MA (where EVERYTHING has political ramifications) to *get* what GaryS is getting at. How S&W even survives here (and how/why they stay here) is a story onto itself. There is an odd-couple relationship between S&W and "Bacon Hill" that often works in very mysterious ways.

Maybe s&w made some deal to survive? Lol

Hopefully, there are a few other factors that enter into these sorts of decisions (like firepower, accuracy and safety), but I get your point: The lowest cost acceptable candidate is usually going to win. Modularity BS aside, I think we just saw that bigtime with the Sig P320 and the Army. While I am decidedly not a big Glock fanboy, I believe the Army should have gone with Glock just for the long and proven history of the design.

My (highly cynical) guess is that if some reasonably well-known brand came up with a mucho cheaper alternative plastic pistol tomorrow (i.e., cheaper to make & sell than even a Glock), that Glock would be in big trouble in the law enforcement market... and I say that despite the long half-life of its products and the venerable cop support organization that Glock has built.

I'm wondering myself if the Sig P320 is going to be that gun.

No, it's not that simple. I didn't mean to imply that at all. It's far more complex and multi-faceted than that... and very political.

Well it's hard to still makes things in W. Germany since it ceased to exist towards the end of 1990 when both East and West came together and became just Germany.

You can find W. German gun made in Germany. That is to say they were made after 1990 when there was no more east and west. I have such a gun, a Sig 220 made in 1995 but marked W. Germany. They still had parts so why not use them.

American Sigs aren't necessarily junk but there was a time when they had serious QC issues. Their timeline goes something like this....
- From the 80s to late 90s they were imported.
- From​ late 90s to around 2004 the slides were made here and the frames were imported. These guns will have that stamped on the side "frame made in Germany"
- Around 2004 Sig split into US and Europe. They essentially became two different companies. They were also struggling financially. A new US CEO was brought in and to save money they started cost cutting. Many small parts were outsourced, materials changed... etc... Up until then Sig only made a few guns. Their main buyers were gov agencies around the world and anyone who happened to like those guns. They are now called legacy guns. P series 210/220/226/228/225-P6, I may be forgetting one or two. Since they were loosing to other manufacturers they started to focus on the civilian market. This can be seen in their lineup. Up until a year or two ago Sig had 29 different versions of just the 226. Many were nothing more than color changes. The civilian market also doesn't require stringent reliability testing. Agencies who were buying the legacy guns started noticing problems. Roll pins breaking early, frames cracking ... especially around the mag release button. Rails separating....These issues were 50/50. Either you got one with problems or yours would run forever.
- Around 2010/12 (I don't remember the exact year) that CEO left and a new one came in. Sign started to tighten up their QC and how small parts were made. Their quality started going up. There were some lemons here and there, like the 250, but overall their quality went back up. Unfortunately time had passed them by and by then most departments had switched away from steel hammer fired guns.

Sigs reliability is also not what the internet makes it out to be. They had issues with roll pins, that was always a weak spot. The 220 45acp had mag issues. I think they went through 4 or 5 redesigns. There were originally issues with the 40s&w but that was fixed early on. They are also harder to keep running in a large agency.

However, if you're spooked and looking for a manufacturer without issues you can stop looking, they don't exist. Even the 3rd gens had issues.


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My defective 226 was W German, I bought it in late '88 early '89 and returned it a couple weeks later. I think they started making them in NH soon after???????

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Sure you did

Touché Ya got me... ... My Bad.

I just want to know the answer to this very simple question: Since the mothership isn't making my beloved 3rd Gens anymore, what is the best alternative available for me to go out and buy today?

And rest assured that I am not ignoring the rest of your post. I just need to study and digest it. I've said many times before that Sig (the company) confuses me... and always has... far more than any other handgun manufacturer out there. It has taken me a long time to warm up to Sig and to actually plunk money down for a Sig (other than my cheapy Mosquito bought long ago - another story for another time). Now, to learn that I may be making a big mistake with Sig products is kind of disturbing.

As a design the legacy guns are good though guns. The 226 passed the US military trials without issue. It came down to who could keep them running cheaper....Beretta or Sig. Beretta outbid Sig in that department, that's all. However, their design was good for it's time. It has been surpassed. Doesn't make it a bad design but standards have changed. This doesn't make it bad.

Let me ask you this. How much do you actually shoot? Do you just collect or do you carry and train with them. If you just collect and occasionally shoot a few boxes you'll never see issues unless it was already present. If you shoot and triangle with them then just be aware that some things need to be changed at certain intervals. You need to keep an eye on the rails. They're alloy and shouldn't be dry all the time. This doesn't mean they have to be consistently soaked but you shouldn't be shooting hundred of rounds on consistently dry rails. A little grease/oil when you clean and an occasional check is fine. The roll pins should be replaced around 20k. Some guys do it sooner. They can go much longer but I'd definitely do it at 50k. Now......are you going to get to that? Only you know.

I have 3 Sigs. Two W. German and one German. 220/226/228. The 220 (1995) and 226 (1990) were ex police guns and show it. The 228 is a civilian model and the one I like the least but it has nothing to do with reliability. Good guns, work good but when it comes to carry there are much better options so I don't carry them. The reason I have German and not American is because of price. The 226 was $400 and the 220 was $325. I understand you have MA laws to worry about and that affects the price but you are also looking at condition, I do not. I simply look at what I'm getting for the price. $325 for a W. German Sig....Yes please! If I wanted to I can have them refinished for $100 or less but for $100 I can also buy 500 rounds of ammo, which is much more important to me then the finish.

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Both Atlanta PD and Georgia State Patrol carry Glock 22s/17s currently. The GSP has had a Glock in their holster for 20 plus years, APD for about 4 years. But it really has nothing to do with Glock USA being headquartered in Metro Atlanta (Smyrna). That is a big plus for all Georgia agencies carry Glock though. Makes customer service when needed very easy.

Atlanta PD for years, like 100 years or so, were exclusively a S&W department. To the extent that when they decided to leave the 5906 behind they transitioned to the S&W 99 in 9mm...for about 18 months. They left the S&W 99 behind because the external extractors rusted horribly in the field. They then switched to the S&W 4006TSW, transitioning from 9mm to 40 S&W at the same time....again for about 18 months. They left the TSW because of issues with the recoil guide rod/spring. They then transitioned to the S&W M&P in 40 cal.....for 5 years or so I believe. In 2013 APD transitioned to the Gen 4 Glock 22. I don't know what drove them abandon the M&P, but I am guessing it was some issue with reliability/durability.

Atlanta PD is a microcosm of historically ruled LE agencies for 100 years or so. Top echelon loyalty to a specific manufacturer so strong that no matter the "test and evaluation" process of several brands during a weapon evaluation, in the end only the historical firearm was going to win. Little concern was given to the actual "best of the trial" or what the man on the street wanted to carry. The decision was made at the Chief/Sheriff/Commissioner level and there was a lot of individual/political issues driving of the train. For some agencies that still exists. Atlanta PD finally broke that mold when they allowed the patrol officer to have a voice in weapon selection. Of course there are limits. If all the rank and file want the $2500 Marsoc Colt railed 1911, that ain't happening. Reliability/Durability/Cost are still factored in. All of this is of course a sore subject for another thread on another day. As always, YMMV.

I'll happily answer that question, but, philosophically speaking, I don't believe it should matter in regard to my question.

To wit:
In other words, whether I shoot it every day (I don't) or whether I get to the range whenever my retired old fool's limited budget says I can afford the $20 or $25 fee (depending on location), the very best all-metal alternative to a 3rd Gen should be the same gun... no?

Right now, I am still between clubs pending our coming move, so I am stuck with the local pay-by-the-hour indoor ranges. They aren't a great deal of fun with my ear problems so little ammo is being consuming for the time being. But if I manage to find a club near our new place with an outdoor pistol range, you can bet that my ammo stash is going to start shrinking at a rather alarming rate!

You don't seem to know all that much about selling or how municipal bidding works.

On paper, municipal bidding is a matter of the vendor who meets the terms of the RFP at the lowest price "lowest responsive bidder", gets the contract. In reality, politics, personal preference of the people making the decision, salesmanship by the vendor reps, and other factors play into the decision.

Where I worked, the radio shop liked Motorola. So, we had Motorola. The bid specs were written so that Motorola was going to win. There is an are to that, I've seen it done. It was also done for one large ambulance purchase. The guy who would make the decision wanted a particular brand, so the RFP was written so that only they could meet it.

There is also a home town pride factor in some purchases. Not to mention revenue being kept local.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

My last 3 pistols I have bought have been HK's....and unless I find a nice 4513TSW .....my next one will probably be an HK as well

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witty signature goes here

What does selling or municipal bidding have to do with S&W being more embarrassed if guns fail in MA vs guns fail in MN or FL or UT

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Gary.....the only thing worthwhile that comes from Sweden are blondes......................and meatballs

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They're still having rail issues or that's in the past?

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Sure you did

The issue you had is unusual unless it was a heavily used gun. The rails are alloy and the frame is steel. All that's needed is to keep an eye on it every once in a while but that's typically done on disassembly. A little lube or grease and it's fine. Left heavily neglected they can wear out and occasionally snap

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I like that the NYPD lets officers choose what 9mm they carry. Glock/sig/s&W. gives the street officer a little confidence in what he;s carrying not stuck carrying whatever the chief picked for you which could be a piece of **** gun!

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

What were the issues?

John

I think you mean the slide is steel unless I am missing something.

That still doesn't sound like a very good excuse for the rails falling off.

The biggest complaint I had heard about Sig pistols (prior to this discussion) was about seemingly random corrosion problems, but I was told that was more common with their NH-Made 1911s than with the all-metal P-Series DA/SA guns. Having actually seen that myself more than once, the complaint clearly had some merit... but that said, one of the very best 1911 pistols I ever fired was a Sig and it almost had me buying one!

Yes sorry

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Yes, but their process of choosing their duty weapon is really screwed up. If you've shot them on your own before, you're all set. If not, you're going in blindly since they make the academy cadets choose which pistol they want BEFORE they are allowed to handle or shoot any of them!

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Will work for ammo.

The 5946 may no longer be available to new recruits according to Brendan. Maybe BigCityChief or other members know more.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/139101286-post17.html

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Sure you did

I guess I just didn't shoot enough of them, but I really don't know what all the fuss is about regarding traditional double action autos, S&Ws or Sigs. Of all the trigger systems I have shot, it is my most hated. Can't stand that transition, never could, never will.

I wish I would have/could have sampled a really good DAO version, but never have.

I shoot all my revolvers DAO, even hunt that way. The key is => it's the same, every time I pull the trigger. But those darn crunchintickers, sorry to offend, but I can't stand them.