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Old 04-11-2017, 09:01 AM
7gables 7gables is offline
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Just read an article about striker fired pistols. Unlike a double action hammer fired pistol or revolver that entirely cocks the hammer spring, the slide on many striker fired pistols cocks the striker spring about 70% of the way. MPs and Glocks are this way. When pulling the trigger you are only finishing the spring compression before the striker is released. Sort of a almost single action. Is this correct? I believe it is. Found it interesting, just thought I'd share
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:48 AM
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Correct on the partial compression of the striker spring, but the motion of the parts during the trigger pull is more like a short double action really. The stress of the striker spring is not fully compressed and static.....or "stationary" on a sear edge, in the same way as the single action components. More of a "camming" motion of the rear surface of the trigger bar, off of the foot of what Glock calls the "firing pin".



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Old 04-11-2017, 10:29 AM
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I see, good animation of the pistol in operation. Thanks
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:25 AM
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It's not just some striker fired pistols. S&W DAO autos with hammers require "pre-cocking".
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:05 PM
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IIRC one of the reasons the Glock 17/19 took off in the Police market is because the ATF classified the Glock as DAO.
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:56 PM
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ACTUALLY, I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY MODERN STRIKER FIRED PISTOL, THAT MAY GIVE A SECOND HIT ON A BAD PRIMER, WITHOUT FIRST EJECTING AND RECHAMBERING THE BAD ROUND. DA/SA, OR DAO CAN DO THAT SIMPLY BY SQUIZING THE TRIGGER AGAIN. SA ON THE OTHER HAND, JUST BY COCKING THE HAMMER FIRST. THEREFORE, A STRIKER FIRED IS NEITHER SA, OR DAO. APPARENTLY, BACK IN THE DAY BATF HAD ONLY A SPECIFIC CHECKLIST AVAILABLE TO CATEGORIZE TRIGER ACTIONS, AND SOMEHOW THEY HAD TO FIT THIS STRIKERFIRED MECHANISM INTO IT, WITHOUT INVESTIGATING TOO MUCH. HENCE A GLOCK FOR STARTERS, AND THEN EVERYTHING ELSE THAT FOLLOWED WAS CHECKED AS A DAO. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE SPRGFLD ARMONY XD LINE OF PISTOLS, COMPLETELY COCKS THE STRIKER ON EACH SLIDE RECIPROCATION. HENCE THE GRIP SAFETY ON THEM. NOT SURE THOUGH ABOUT IT. THAT IS JUST SOMETHING I WAS TOLD BY GUYS THAT HAVE THEM.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SOTVEN View Post
ACTUALLY, I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY MODERN STRIKER FIRED PISTOL, THAT MAY GIVE A SECOND HIT ON A BAD PRIMER, WITHOUT FIRST EJECTING AND RECHAMBERING THE BAD ROUND.
Walther P99AS, Canik TP9, Magnum Research MR9, S&W SW99, Taurus 24/7. P7 kinda has a second strike.

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Old 04-12-2017, 02:55 PM
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Walther P99AS, Canik TP9, Magnum Research MR9, S&W SW99, Taurus 24/7. P7 kinda has a second strike.

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HELLO FRIEND! ITS BEEN SO MANY YEARS SINCE I HAD USED THE P99/SW99, THAT THOUGH I REMEMBER THEY HAD A TOP LEFT SLIDE MOUNTED DECOCKER BUTTON, I CAN NOT RECALL IF THEY WOULD FIRE FROM THE DECOCKED POSISION OR NOT. IF YES, THEN YOU ARE ABSOLUTELLY RIGHT, THEY WOULD COUNT AS DA/SA. AS FOR THE HK P7 (AND P13 APPARENTLY) ONE WOULD HAVE TO RE-SQUIZE THE COCKING HANDLE TO BE ABLE TO REFIRE? EVEN IF SO, AGAIN, YOU ARE RIGHT, THIS WOULD COUNT AS AN SA. I DID NOT THINK OF THEM AS MODERN WHEN I WROTE MY POST, BUT THEY WERE IN PRODUCTION WELL INTO THE 2000'S, SO I GUESS THAT IS MODERN ENOUGH FOR ME. AS FOR THE CANIK AND MR9, I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH THEM, SO I HAVE NO REASON TO DOUBT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

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Old 04-12-2017, 03:02 PM
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Right, the P7 you would have to re squeeze which is why I said it kinda has second strike. Just by coincidence

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Old 04-12-2017, 03:21 PM
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WOW!!THE MR9 IS A LOT LIKE THW P99/SW99! HAD NOT SEEN THIS BEFORE. THANX FOR THE HEADS UP.
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Old 04-12-2017, 04:35 PM
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I think the thing to bear in mind is that the essential similarity between a striker fired pistol and a single action pistol is the 100% consistency in trigger "press". Whether you look at the striker fired gun as a short double action, think of it as a DAO, etc., the key is that you do not have to train for two distinct trigger "pulls" (press - pull, whatever word you like). For many shooters that is a distinct advantage.

I will not wax eloquent on my preference for TDA pistols with decockers (think 3rd Gen S&Ws). I shall save that for other threads. Striker fired guns are not usually my cup of tea.
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:38 PM
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THE CONSISTENCY IS INDEED MORE APPARENT TO SOME STRIKERFIRED GUNS THAN OFCOURSE THE DA/SA ONES. HOWEVER, THE DA/SA, DAO, AND SA DESIGNATIONS IN THE GUN GLOSSARY REFER TO WHAT THE TRIGGER PERFORMS ON EACH PRESSING/PULLING, RATHER THAN HOW IT FEELS WHILE DOING IT, I THINK.

I REMEMBER BACK IN THE HAYDAY, LONG BEFORE THE INTERNET, WHEN THE GLOCK WAS ADVERTIZING IN GUNS AND AMMO MAGAZINE, AND THERE WAS NOT MUCH HYPE ABOUT IT, LE WERE NOT INTO IT YET, AND THE MAGAZINE EDITORS WERE SCEPTICAL ABOUT THIS "POLYMER" GUN, THE COMPANY WAS ADVERTIZING ITS TRIGER AS "SAFE ACTION" NOT DA OR DAO. MANY YEARS LATER THERE IS A TERM "GLOCK LEG"...

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Old 04-12-2017, 06:07 PM
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I remember reading a long time ago that the police chief of Miami,, I think, said to his officers in response to them requesting autos to replace their revolvers " when they have a double action only auto, then I'll get you new guns" or something very close to that. When the Glock was named a double action auto...well.. he had to eat this words and replace their revolvers. and the rest is history as they say.
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Old 04-13-2017, 05:09 AM
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I remember reading a long time ago that the police chief of Miami,, I think, said to his officers in response to them requesting autos to replace their revolvers " when they have a double action only auto, then I'll get you new guns" or something very close to that. When the Glock was named a double action auto...well.. he had to eat this words and replace their revolvers. and the rest is history as they say.
HAHAHAHA!!! FUNNY STORIES OF THE PAST! I TOO REMEMBER THAT STORY FRIEND, BUT JUST LIKE YOU, I CAN NOT REMEMBER ALL THE DETAILS. ACCORDING TO THE FBI STATISTICS BACK IN THE LATE 80'S, FOR 30 YEARS, OF ALL OFFICERS KILLED IN THE LINE OF DUTY, ABOUT 15% WERE KILLED BY THEIR OWN GUNS USED AGAINST THEM BY THE CROOKS. S&W HAD ANSWERED THAT CALL WITH THE MAGAZINE DISCONNECT, AND UNCLE MIKE'S WITH THE ANTI-GRAB RETENTION DUTY HOLSTERS. (PERHAPS OTHER COMPANIES HAD DONE THE SAME, ITS JUST THAT I AM UNAWARE OF THEM). AND THEN GLOCK WAS NAMED A "DAO", AND OVERNIGHT THE LE HAD TRANSITIONED TO IT. THE PISTOL WITH A MANUAL SAFETY ON ITS TRIGGER(?????!!!!!????!!!) AND NO OTHER EXTERNAL SAFETY (?????!!!!!?????!!!!!) ON TOP OF THAT, I HEAR THAT SOME STATES CONSIDER GLOCKS LE ONLY GUNS, AND NOT FOR CIVILIANS (MAYBE TRUE??) HMMMM.... IT SEEMS TO ME, AS IF SOMEONE CAME OUT WITH A CAR THAT ONLY HAS ONE PEDAL UNDER THE STEERING WHEEL. YOU PRESS IT THIS WAY, ACCELERATES. YOU PRESS IT THE OTHER WAY, IT BRAKES. YOU PRESS IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY, CLUTCH. AND NO EMERGENCY BRAKE. AND IN SOME STATES ITS TO BE USED AS A POLICE CRUISER ONLY. EITHER I AM GETTING TOO OLD, OR THIS WORLD HAS GOTTEN TOO SMART FOR ME OVER THE YEARS! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Old 04-13-2017, 06:23 AM
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CAPS LOCK IS NOT CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
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Walther P99AS, Canik TP9, Magnum Research MR9, S&W SW99, Taurus 24/7. P7 kinda has a second strike.

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Pretty sure you can re-cock the Glock action without ejecting a chambered round. I've no idea why you would want to do this, but you can.

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I remember reading a long time ago that the police chief of Miami,, I think, said to his officers in response to them requesting autos to replace their revolvers " when they have a double action only auto, then I'll get you new guns" or something very close to that. When the Glock was named a double action auto...well.. he had to eat this words and replace their revolvers. and the rest is history as they say.
Miami PD--one of the first big police departments to adopt the Glock, did so in 1987. Smith and Wesson had long been producing DA/SA semiautomatics, and introduced DAO models for the 3rd Gen (1988). And of course, there's no real safety difference between a DA/SA and pistol and a DA revolver. Many other police departments had long been issuing or authorizing the S&W DA/SAs.

Of course, I've never accused any big-city Chief of being a smart person.
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Old 04-13-2017, 07:51 AM
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Pretty sure you can re-cock the Glock action without ejecting a chambered round. I've no idea why you would want to do this, but you can.



.
You can't. Only way is to rack the slide.

When the pistol is charged, the firing pin is in the half-cock position. As the trigger is pulled, the firing pin is then fully cocked.

Any kind of cocking involves the slide to be pulled back to the rear and released. Whether that's by hand or by shooting

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Old 04-13-2017, 08:23 AM
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Pretty sure you can re-cock the Glock action without ejecting a chambered round. I've no idea why you would want to do this, but you can.



Miami PD--one of the first big police departments to adopt the Glock, did so in 1987. Smith and Wesson had long been producing DA/SA semiautomatics, and introduced DAO models for the 3rd Gen (1988). And of course, there's no real safety difference between a DA/SA and pistol and a DA revolver. Many other police departments had long been issuing or authorizing the S&W DA/SAs.

Of course, I've never accused any big-city Chief of being a smart person.
HELLO FRIEND, I MENTIONED ELSEWHERE, MY KEYBOARD DOES NOT TYPE LOWERECASE WHEN SWITCHED TO ENGLISH. I HAVE NOT THE SLIGHTEST CLUE WHY, AND IN NO CASE I KNOW MUCH ABOUT COMPUTERS.

THE RESTRIKE OR NOT, WAS NOT A MATTER OF PREFFERANCE, RATHER A WAY TO DEMONSTRATE THE DIFFERENCE IN OPERATION OF EACH TRIGGER SYSTEM. HOWEVER, WE HAD AT THE RANGE HERE A COUPLE TIMES BATCHES OF 9MM, THAT SEEMED TO HAD BEEN PRIMED FOR OPENBOLT SUBMACHINE GUNS. THE LATEST WAS FROM RUSSIA, ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO. OLIVE DRAB CASE, COPPER FMJ AND RED PRIMER. THOSE ROUNDS WERE HARD TO IGNITE THROUGH A GLOCK, AND SOMEHOW EASIER THROUGH AN F92 OR A USP. IN CASE OF MISFIRE IN EACH, THE DA/SA WAS A ROUTINE OF REAIM AND FIRE. THE GLOCKS HAD TO BE CYCLED. MAY BE A DIFFERENT WAY TO RECOCK THEM, ITS JUST THAT WE COULD NOT FIND IT. BESIDES, THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE THE ONLY INSTANCE WHERE A SUCH FEATURE WOULD BE USEFUL I GUESS, AND NOTHING MORE.
ON HOW A DA/SA AND A DA REVOLVER DO NOT DIFFER IN SAFETY, I AM NOT SURE I FOLLOW. IF FOR EXAMPLE MY LOADED 4506 OR 5904 HAVE THEIR SAFETY ENGAGED, NO MATER HOW MUCH I WORK THE TRIGGER, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. ON THE OTHER HAND, MY 686 WILL ALWAYS GO CLIK OR BOOM DEPENDING IF LOADED OR NOT. ASSUMING NOW THAT BOTH GUNS ARE IN THEIR HOLSTER, TRIGER EXPOSED, AND SAFETY OFF, (FOR THE SAKE OF THE EXAMPLE) THE PISTOLS WILL GO BOOM IF THE TRIGGER IS MAINULATED. WILL THEY EJECT AND RECHAMBER? HMMM... I DONT KNOW, BUT I DOUBT IT. HOWEVER, THAT FIRST SLUG WILL BE ON ITS WAY TO SOME RANDOM TRAJECTORY, INCLUDING MY ANATOMY. THE SAME EXAMPLE WITH THE REVOLVER HOWEVER, I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY POUNDS OF TRIGGER PULL WILL BE NEEDED TO SPIN THE CYLINDER INSIDE THE HOLSTER, AND MAKE IT FIRE ACCIDENTALY. I HAVE NOT TRIED IT OFFCOURSE, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A BIT DIFFICULT TO HAPPEN. I BELIEVE THAT A DA/SA - DAO - STRIKER FIRED PISTOLS AND DA REVOLVERS ARE VERY DIFFERENT ANIMALS IN TERMS OF SAFETY. JUST MY TWO CENTS FRIEND.
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Old 04-14-2017, 04:44 AM
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You can't. Only way is to rack the slide.

When the pistol is charged, the firing pin is in the half-cock position. As the trigger is pulled, the firing pin is then fully cocked.

Any kind of cocking involves the slide to be pulled back to the rear and released. Whether that's by hand or by shooting

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Well, just tooling around with my 26 and a spent case, the trigger easily resets long before the barrel unlocks enough to eject the case.

Now, given that the striker is what pushes the trigger forward, it would seem to me that that indicates that the striker is in its normal "semi-cocked" position. In other words, that it's impossible to reset the trigger without also resetting the striker. The trigger spring just holds the bar up to catch the striker.

There's little-to-no decent information online, so I think I'm just going to have to wait until I get a misfire with a 9 to see for myself.

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ON HOW A DA/SA AND A DA REVOLVER DO NOT DIFFER IN SAFETY, I AM NOT SURE I FOLLOW. IF FOR EXAMPLE MY LOADED 4506 OR 5904 HAVE THEIR SAFETY ENGAGED, NO MATER HOW MUCH I WORK THE TRIGGER, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. ON THE OTHER HAND, MY 686 WILL ALWAYS GO CLIK OR BOOM DEPENDING IF LOADED OR NOT. ASSUMING NOW THAT BOTH GUNS ARE IN THEIR HOLSTER, TRIGER EXPOSED, AND SAFETY OFF, (FOR THE SAKE OF THE EXAMPLE) THE PISTOLS WILL GO BOOM IF THE TRIGGER IS MAINULATED. WILL THEY EJECT AND RECHAMBER?HMMM... I DONT KNOW, BUT I DOUBT IT. HOWEVER, THAT FIRST SLUG WILL BE ON ITS WAY TO SOME RANDOM TRAJECTORY, INCLUDING MY ANATOMY. THE SAME EXAMPLE WITH THE REVOLVER HOWEVER, I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY POUNDS OF TRIGGER PULL WILL BE NEEDED TO SPIN THE CYLINDER INSIDE THE HOLSTER, AND MAKE IT FIRE ACCIDENTALY.
I believe your premise is incorrect. There are a couple options for holster selection when it comes to the example you're discussing:

(1) The holster doesn't cover the trigger--well, not the greatest CCW selection in the world. However, holsters with exposed triggers that are designed for anything other than competition usually have some kind of retention device (a strap or a thong) that goes around the back of the hammer to hold the gun in the holster. With that strap in place, the hammer can't move back, preventing the gun from firing. Most of these also leave the cylinder exposed, which isn't idea for frequent use because it's not going to protect the gun.

(2) The holster covers the trigger--in which case, it's going to prevent a discharge. Whether or not the cylinder can move is irrelevant. And such a holster is going to cover the cylinder anyway.

(3) The holster covers the cylinder, but doesn't protect the trigger--most likely because it's a soft, flimsy piece of garbage.

Which brings us to--

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I HAVE NOT TRIED IT OFFCOURSE, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A BIT DIFFICULT TO HAPPEN. I BELIEVE THAT A DA/SA - DAO - STRIKER FIRED PISTOLS AND DA REVOLVERS ARE VERY DIFFERENT ANIMALS IN TERMS OF SAFETY. JUST MY TWO CENTS FRIEND.
That's because you're viewing the gun in isolation of the holster, a mistake lots of people make.

DA/SA, DAO, and striker-fired pistols rely on the holster to make carry safe. Without the holster, you could jam something sideways against the trigger and get a discharge. In that respect, striker-fired guns with trigger safeties are a little better (but not by much, tbh).

Note that I didn't say "pistols without manual safeties". Lots of people get hung up on the presence of a manual safety. In reality, it's a false sense of security, because manual safeties have a funny habit of deactivating themselves given just the right bump.

As I explained above, revolvers are just as dependent on the holster.

There's really no advantage, safety-wise, to one particular mechanism or another. As a private citizen, it's simply a matter of what you can shoot best, and what you're comfortable with.

Law enforcement agencies have to contend with standardization, training, and making sure all officers can use the issued weapon. In that respect, the Glock has a pretty clear advantage over, say, the Smith DA/SA and DAO pistols. Glocks are very easy to shoot what I'd call "adequately"--good enough to qual with. I'd consider DA/SAs the most difficult trigger style to master or even shoot well with--the transition from double to single is jarring. And the DA pull can be a little long for someone that doesn't spend a lot of time shooting, or has very small hands.

Add that to the fact that there's a Glock for every size hand, its low price tag, and that they're just the easiest damn things in the world to field-strip and maintain, and it's easy to see why police agencies were so taken with them.

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Old 04-17-2017, 02:58 PM
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Well, just tooling around with my 26 and a spent case, the trigger easily resets long before the barrel unlocks enough to eject the case.

Now, given that the striker is what pushes the trigger forward, it would seem to me that that indicates that the striker is in its normal "semi-cocked" position. In other words, that it's impossible to reset the trigger without also resetting the striker. The trigger spring just holds the bar up to catch the striker.

There's little-to-no decent information online, so I think I'm just going to have to wait until I get a misfire with a 9 to see for myself.



I believe your premise is incorrect. There are a couple options for holster selection when it comes to the example you're discussing:

(1) The holster doesn't cover the trigger--well, not the greatest CCW selection in the world. However, holsters with exposed triggers that are designed for anything other than competition usually have some kind of retention device (a strap or a thong) that goes around the back of the hammer to hold the gun in the holster. With that strap in place, the hammer can't move back, preventing the gun from firing. Most of these also leave the cylinder exposed, which isn't idea for frequent use because it's not going to protect the gun.

(2) The holster covers the trigger--in which case, it's going to prevent a discharge. Whether or not the cylinder can move is irrelevant. And such a holster is going to cover the cylinder anyway.

(3) The holster covers the cylinder, but doesn't protect the trigger--most likely because it's a soft, flimsy piece of garbage.

Which brings us to--



That's because you're viewing the gun in isolation of the holster, a mistake lots of people make.

DA/SA, DAO, and striker-fired pistols rely on the holster to make carry safe. Without the holster, you could jam something sideways against the trigger and get a discharge. In that respect, striker-fired guns with trigger safeties are a little better (but not by much, tbh).

Note that I didn't say "pistols without manual safeties". Lots of people get hung up on the presence of a manual safety. In reality, it's a false sense of security, because manual safeties have a funny habit of deactivating themselves given just the right bump.

As I explained above, revolvers are just as dependent on the holster.

There's really no advantage, safety-wise, to one particular mechanism or another. As a private citizen, it's simply a matter of what you can shoot best, and what you're comfortable with.

Law enforcement agencies have to contend with standardization, training, and making sure all officers can use the issued weapon. In that respect, the Glock has a pretty clear advantage over, say, the Smith DA/SA and DAO pistols. Glocks are very easy to shoot what I'd call "adequately"--good enough to qual with. I'd consider DA/SAs the most difficult trigger style to master or even shoot well with--the transition from double to single is jarring. And the DA pull can be a little long for someone that doesn't spend a lot of time shooting, or has very small hands.

Add that to the fact that there's a Glock for every size hand, its low price tag, and that they're just the easiest damn things in the world to field-strip and maintain, and it's easy to see why police agencies were so taken with them.
HELLO FRIEND! I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINTS. MY EXAMPLE WITH THE HOLSTERED PISTOLS, WAS A BIT EXAGERATED, IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE MY POINT MORE OBVIOUS. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, ANY DECENT HOLSTER WILL NOT ALLOW THE HOLSTERED GUN TO FIRE. (ACTUALLY, EVEN THE CHEAPER ONES I HAVE SEEN, WOULD NOT ALLOW A GUN TO FIRE EITHER). MY EXAMPLE WAS MORE OF A HYPOTHETICAL, SO I COULD TALK ABOUT EACH MECHANISM SEPERATELY. PERHAPS THIS NEXT EXAMPLE MIGHT MAKE MY POINT MORE CLEAR. ANY LONG ARM, RIFLE OR SHOTGUN THAT I NOW, HAS MANUAL SAFETY. THERE ARE NO HOLSTERS USED USUALLY WITH THEM, RATHER OCCASIONALLY A SLING, OR ELSE, IN HAND ALL DAY. IMAGINE, THAT SOMEONE HAS TO CARRY A PISTOL/REVOLVER, IN THIS SAME MATTER. IMHO, THE STRIKERFIRE/ NO MANUAL SAFETY PISTOL WOULD BE THE MOST PRONE OF THE BATCH TO GO BOOM UNINTENTIONALLY. MAYBE NOT, BUT THAT IS MY OPINION, AND I WILL GLADLY RESPECT YOURS IF IT DIFFERS. THE POINT HOWEVER THAT YOU MAKE ABOUT HOW EASY GLOCKS ARE TO SHOOT, THERE MY FRIEND, I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE. SEE, OVER HERE IN EUROPE, GLOCKS ARE EVERYWHERE. I HAVE DONE ABOUT 75% OF MY HANDGUN SHOOTING WITH GLOCKS, MOSTLY 17 19 AND 21. I FIND IT VERY DIFICULT TO AIM WITH THEM. SOME SAY ITS THE GRIP ANGLE. I DONT KNOW. ALSO, I DISLIKE THE FACT, THAT THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT GUNS FORM FULLY LOADED TO ALMOST EMPTY, IN TERMS OF WEIGHT. THIS MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT AFFECTS ME TOO PERHAPS. 3RD GEN SMITHS ARE HARD TO FIND ON THE OTHER HAND, BUT WHOEVER HAS TRIED MINE, THEY ARE TURNED TO MARKSMEN RIGHT OFF THE BAT!! ESPECIALLY THE 4506 VS THE 21, ACCORDING TO EVERYONE AT THE RANGE, THERE IS NO COMPARISON ON HOW SUPERIOR THE S&W IS IN EASE OF SHOOTING. I WILL AGREE WITH YOU ON THE LOW COST ADVANTAGE THOUGH, AND PERHAPS THE INTERCHANGABILITY OF PARTS, AND EASE OF REPAIRS MOSTLY, NOT MAINTENANCE PER SE, THAT MADE THEM FAVORABLE WITH THE LE. THOSE WHERE ALSO THE REASONS WHY OUR RANGE SWITCHED FROM CZ TO GLOCK IN THE DISTANT PAST.
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