Anyone familiar with this forum is well versed in what constitutes a first, second, and third generation S&W automatic. Its clearly defined and specific. However, what defines the categories that come AFTER generation three? When Smith started producing polymer framed guns, even though they weren't Smith's original designs, they were a departure from generation three. My point of view is as follows:

Generation Four (The Glock-off's). The polymer framed copies and liberal borrowing from other makers that Smith produced, both under license and under court settlement. These would be the Sigma series pistols and the licensed copies of the Walther P99, the SW99. I keep a 40-cal S&W Sigma as my car gun, though as long as I've owned it, in time it may become a collection firearm and I'll replace it with a M&P45. These class of firearms are completely and demonstrably apart from the Gen 3 pistols and came after Smith by and large stopped making all-metal framed pistols (prior to the S&W 1911). For some, these are the dark-days of Smith and Wesson autos. The shadow of the Clintons cast long over the maker, both from its production and its perception. I won't purchase a Smith revolver with a "Hillary Hole" safety lock. When I go to a gunshow, I always ask when I pick up a good looking Smith revolver, "Is it pre-Clinton?" The ones pre-Clinton go for notably more than the Hillary Hole models, and I'm not talking thinks like the 29-2, but 686's and the like.

Generation Five (Poppa's got a brand-new bang). This is the advent of Smith fielding its own design polymer frame automatics. The Shield, M&P, and SD would probably fill up the ranks of this designation. These designs are Smith's own engineering incarnate, but likely still having some external influence. Still, theyre not licensed copies or unlicensed copies of another maker's gear. A break from Gen 4. Clearly and demonstrably different from any previous production.

I personally believe that Smith autos end at 3rd Gen...

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Because of the metric system?

First, Second and Third Gen S&W autos were all based on S&W's own, original metal frames, with updated features changing the Gen number. First Gen 9mm's, 39 and 59, had no firing pin lock and could discharge with the decocker in the "safe" position. Second Gen got a lock for the firing pins. Third had a massive (for the time) change of features, like sights, grips, improved trigger pulls.

The polymer frame guns aren't a development of any earlier Gen S&W semiauto. The Sigma was largely a Glock copy. More like illigitimate children than cousins or descendants.

Well the same can be said of the British royal family. Nothing more than descendants of the most successful back-stabbing, kiniving, thieving, brutish pack of cut-throats, and liars, however, everyone in jolly old England waves a tiny Union Jack and smiles ear to ear everytime a new generation of inbred village idiots is born to the crown.

B*****ds they may indeed be, but born of the loins that brought us firearms we all covet and collect. Favor them or not, struck on the side of each of them is the S&W logo. Purists will dismiss them out of hand but you can't escape the absolute fact they rolled out of the S&W factory in the azure blue plastic boxes just like the others. Defining their genre' is what collectors do. In the end S&W makes firearms to sell for profit, its the enthusiasts that define that product as collectible. Remember, right after WW2 you could buy German P08 Lugers for five dollars. It was collectors that made some of them worth as much as a good used car.

The TSW guns incorporated a number of engineering improvements over their like numbered earlier production brethren not unlike how a 4506 is a product improved 645.

I'll go so far as to say the TSW variants constitute Generation 4 but, that's as far as I'll go There is no Gen 5.

Cheers
Bill

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Because they don't make a .46

I AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT FRIEND, AND PERHAPS I WOULD ADD THAT MAYBE THE VALUE LINE 915-908 ETC. COULD BE NAMED A 5TH GEN PERHAPS. AFTER THAT, JUST LIKE IN PALEONTOLOGY, THE POWERFUL AND IMPRESSIVE DINOSAURS WENT EXTINCT, AND PASSED THE RELAY STICK TO THE MICE... NO LINEAGE IN BETWEEN, OTHER THAN THE BRAND NAME AND LOGOS.

THOUGH YOUR TEXT IS VERY THOUGHTFUL FRIEND, AND YOUR POINTS ARE VALID, I PERSONALLY WILL TRY TO SKEW FROM THE "BRITISH" BEHAVIOR POSTED ABOVE, AND I WILL NOT EMBRACE THE DOWNFALL OF WHAT THE "GOLD STANDARD FOR PISTOLS" HAS BECOME TODAY. I WILL STICK TO MY GUNS. LITERALY! LOL!

I would include the CS series guns, CS9 - CS40 - CS45, as the "5th gen".

The only thing the plastic striker fired stuff shares with 2nd and 3rd gen guns, is the calibers and famous logo. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

A collectable Sigma............

Thanks for the laugh this morning.

OK,so how do we place the transitionals. Gen 1.5 and Gen 2.5 and for the very late 3rd Gens,Gen 3.5.

No. The end of metal framed S&W autos was the end of an era. There's nothing unique or wrong with polymer framed, same old, copycat striker fired pistols. There's no reason not to own one if a person needs a handgun to do a particular job, but they are not worthy of any designation beyond brand, model name and caliber. Kind of like the British Royal Welfarers.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

I'd classify the TSW guns more along the lines of Smith Revolvers as "Gen 3-1" guns.

Again using the S&W revolver model system...you can have a 2 1/2,3,4or 6 inch model 66 with round or square butt...............

I would view the CS guns as variations of existing Gen-3 guns..... along with the LadySmith and NL 39xx guns.

I MUCH AGREE FRIEND.

These are the arguably correct (or at least technically supportable) answers.

I would state it just a little differently by saying that the most significant "break" between the original 3rd Gens (including the early "pre-rail" TSW models and "pre-Value Line" guns) and the second coming (second incarnation?) of 3rd Gens came with the split into the premium black mustache-railed TSW's plus the true Value Line guns... and I lump the CS models in with the Value Line guns for their technical and visual/cosmetic similarities.

In my view, the marketing component is just as important and significant here as the technical and visual/cosmetic components. The handgun world was changing and S&W sought to adapt to those changes in multiple ways. This, as it turned out, was their final effort to save their long-lived S&W family of all-metal, center-fire semi-autos. Sadly, we all know how that effort turned out.

I have to disagree here. If you collect the spectrum of S&W products, your collection would include even the firearms that were produced that were less than stellar. If you collect a narrow genre, such as metal-framed classics, like myself, then your collection holds a vast majority of glorious steel, alloy, and stainless framed classics.

I do concur with you that polymer framed firearms are not at this time collectibles. I can't think of a single soul that collects Glocks. However, the Sigma is a discontinued S&W product and even if you don't regard it in the same class as your perfect 645, its still an example of a firearm S&W made. There are collectors out there that will buy and proudly own a Colt All-American 2000 pistol even though many reviewers consider that pistol to be the WORST commercially available gun made by a name brand American gun maker. Collecting can be any level and degree but some are absolutists, collecting EVERYTHING a particular maker produces, good or bad.

The trick here is not becoming elitist and engaging in gear snobbery. All S&W products can be part of a collection, if its something you enjoy and of value to you, that's what makes a collection relevant to you.

OH AND CAPS LOCK DOES NOT MAKE YOUR POINT MORE VALID.

Absolutely correct. But don't expect too many other members to agree with us unless they are full spectrum S&W collectors... out to own the good, the bad and the ugly. They are all interesting to me. In fact, some of the biggest S&W failures are the most interesting guns of all to me. Why? Because I want to understand the failures just as well as I understand the success stories.

I FULLY AGREE WITH YOUR POINT OF VIEW ON COLLECTOR'S IDEA OF WORTHINESS FRIEND. I ONLY HELD AND FIRED A SIGMA ONCE, WHEN THEY HAD HIT THE MARKET, BACK IN THE MID 90'S. FWIW, I THINK IT WAS MUCH MORE ERGONOMICALY DESIGNED TO FIT THE HUMAN HAND THAN THE GUN IT HAD COPIED. BUT STILL, I WOULD NOT WANT ONE. SHOOTER OR COLLECTOR WISE.

It's silly to attempt to redefine a word in the English language merely to mold it to your particular subject. In this case, S&W 1st, 2nd and 3rd Gen pistols were not adorned "Generation" as a marketing term, it was simply the proper word in the language to describe their relationship to each other.

Indeed, a TSW-series pistol could be logically argued a 4th Gen, and you could perhaps argue PC semiauto pistols a 5th Gen, although there is a genuine conflict in time line between those two.

I wouldn't agree that the CS-series small pistols could claim a generation of their own -- unless a similar case were made for the 469/669 pistols also.

Any comparison between handguns and the British Royal family is cute nonsense. One thing has zero to do with the other.

HA!!! WHO IS THE CULPRIT BEHIND ENGLISH SUBJECTS NOT ALLOWED TO OWN HANDGUNS???? THE ROYAL FAMILY PERHAPS??? HMMMM.... THERE!! THE PLOT THICKENS!!! HAHAHA!!! JUST KIDDING!!

I have a hard time thinking of the PC autos as a separate Generation....... given the generally small runs of these guns. Again using the S&W revolver history as a guide..... I'd put the PC guns in the same category as the 1930s Registered Magnums........ "factory custom"

As much as it pains me to say it the end of the 3rd Generation guns...... was like the Neanderthal.......... being replaced by the Cro-Magon.............
representing two different genetic lines of development!

I'd view the move to the new polymer strike-fired guns.....more akin to the change when S&W went from "top-break revolvers to double action "hand-Ejectors" with swing out cylinders........




All that said I don't necessarily view the change over as an improvement !!! just MHO!!!!!!!!

But if you take the shine off that's pretty much the way it is. Reminds me of 'Kill one person and you'll be hung. "Kill a lot of people and you will be knighted."

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I think the polymer pistols are another branch of the family, and have their own "generations."

The Sigmas were Gen 1. Runty, literally *******s from the glock seed, never gaining much legitimacy for the S&W clan. The SW99 might fit in this generation (it's really from a lineage outside the family too).

The polymer M&Ps (2005+) represent the second generation, which also includes the BG, the much improved Sigma (in the form of the SD), and the Shields. S&W made a much more presentable series of handguns in this second generation, gathering loyal followers and incidentally saving the company. I'm not sure this Gen has guns with the soul and Spirit of the all-metal pistols, but I think the infusion of Apex DNA saved the day.

The M&P 2.0 might represent the start of a third Gen of polymer guns. Dunno. Will have to see if they have a life and a spirit of their own.

So Gen 4 of S&W all-metal pistols has yet to appear. It could, maybe, if S&W updated and modernized the 3913 and the 915 et al into something more accurate, reliable, and affordable than the last of the superb all-metal Gen 3's...

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S&W Rover

I'll just state that the current line of
S&W Plastic Fantastic...hasn't got the balls
to chamber 10mm!!

And therefore since they are in the land
of Wimpy Wimpy Folderol,
I ain't bothering with 'em!!

Attached Images

10mm.jpg (66.2 KB, 30 views)

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

If your definition of "balls" is the same as "lack of market awareness" then you have a point.

As much as I would love a new generation of 10mm guns from S&W, I realize the broad demand for them just isn't there. Developing a gun only a few hundred people would buy is a recipe for economic ruin.

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NRA Endowment Member

Ah, come on! Just take a Model 59, Model 459 and Model 5904 and set them side by side. Now, set down some S&W polymer pistols side by side underneath. Take a look . . . now take another look. Do you see?


Geez, the reasoning express by some in a few of the above posts would have the Colt Model 1911 ("The 1911") as just a 3rd or 4th generation Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP). I don't hate polymer pistols, and even own a few, but they're not simply a continuation/progression of the original Model 39.


FWIW IMHO

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

I am brand new to S&W autos. I had a Model 59 for a short time 40 years ago when they first came out, but didn't feel that 9mm met my needs at the time.

I recently purchased a CS45 and trying to learn a few things about it.

Where can I find a delineation of the various generations and where does the CS45 go in this puzzle?

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Eccentric old coot

Well, the CS45 is absolutely a 3rd Gen.

There are only 3 widely produce 1st Gens-- models 39, 59 and 52 and the engineering changes of those (meaning 39-2, 52-1, 52-2)

2nd Gens are more models, but not a mindblowing volume of models: 439, 539, 639, 459, 559, 659, 469, 669, 645 and 745

The 3rd Gens had too many models to list. The most obvious 3rd Gens are the 5906, 4506, 4006 and 1006, and then countless variations on those 4.

A shortcut method is the number of digits in the model name -BUT- beware of a small pitfall with this method. Example... 39 and 59, two digits, these are first gens. 659, 745... three digits, 2nd Gens. And 4506 or 5906, four digits, these are 3rd Gens.

The pitfall is that the 3rd Gens also include a few models in the "Value Line" that used three digit model names. 915, 910, 908, 411, 410, 457. Also, the CS-9, CS-40, CS-45, all of these are 3rd Gens.

-YES- it is confusing, but after you've become an enthusiast, you may find it entertaining. (still confusing but enjoyably so...!)

Iggy, what Sevens said!!!

I agree with that and I like how Sevens broke it down.

I look at my 6906, CS-45 (Iggy, these CS models are EXCELLENT!!! - CS models are subcompact 3rd Gens - CS = Chiefs Special for a reason!), CS-9, and 5903 and see virtually no difference in operation.

All 3rd Gen, all the same.

But if you don't count the size of the pistol itself, and magazine capacity, with few exceptions (DAO models and the 745 SA model) they are all traditional DA/SA with slide-mounted safety/decockers. 1st through 3rd generation. Unless I missed something there isn't a single one of those that an aficionado of even one model couldn't pick up and understand its functioning in under 15 seconds.

So the generational changes are all S&W fine tuning modifications and, mostly, renumbering. Someone PLEASE PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.

"Well the same can be said of the British royal family. Nothing more than descendants of the most successful back-stabbing, kiniving, thieving, brutish pack of cut-throats, and liars, however, everyone in jolly old England waves a tiny Union Jack and smiles ear to ear everytime a new generation of inbred village idiots is born to the crown.
"



C'mon, S&W59, quit playing around and just tell us how you really feel. It's not healthy to hold stuff in...

Thanks for the info guys. I had the first Model 59 in Wyoming but have not looked or played with any since then.

I've finally pretty well mastered the revolver models and configurations but the autos really look like a can of worms..

Well, I'll work on it. Thanks again.

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Eccentric old coot

Iggy, I will send you an on line breakdown that will assist.

That would be great. Thanks
Iggy

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Eccentric old coot

Tell us what you think - I am uncertain about posting that here.

Yes -- they are considered "generations" because they are simply upgraded, small feature changes but all based on the same exact original design. There are parts from a 1960 Model 39 that literally could be used on a 2008-built 5906.

There is no part from any Model 39 that could ever be used in a Sigma or M&P. So it's a lousy idea to attempt to Christen some pistol as a 4th or 5th Gen because it happens to say S&W on it.

Congrats Iggy on the CS45 aquisition. Fine little 45! I got mine this past December and have been carrying it for the last 4 months.

A kind member provided me an excellent IWB holster for it. Carries a d conceals easily. The usual 3rd gen reliability and accuracy. Enjoy yours! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Thanks guys I read the link Yoda sent me.. I now have a vague understanding of the generations.

I think I'm gonna like the CS45. I finally quit carrying big bore revolver and have been waltzing through the maze of plastic fantastics.

I have been studiously ignoring this little gun in the show case at the LGS for over a month. I like the SA/DA feature that attracted me to the Model 59 40 years ago.

I finallly called down to the LGS and asked if they still had the gun..
She said "Yes."
I said "Damm!!"

Long story short I took it out in the country the day after I bought it and killed a rock, a dirt clod, and a cow pie with the first 3 shots.

Any gun that is minute of cow pie is good enough for me.
I've ordered a spare mag and have holsters that will do just fine for EDC.

A few more rounds and I may have a new packin' iron.

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Eccentric old coot

I was shooting a new Sig P227 Tacops yesterday and I thought of this thread.

Accurate and reliable through 250 rounds, so far. Metal framed and hammer fired. GREAT TRIGGER! Checkering on the front strap reminiscent of my REAL Performance Center guns. From back when that meant something other than a high price tag.

This gun reminded me in some ways of the 4563TSW and the 4516-3. It was extremely accurate putting 11 rounds of S&B 230 grain ball into sub 3 inch ragged hole at 25 yards. Off hand, not benched.

Great pistol. If it continues shaking out well it may replace my full size 3rd gen 45s as a carry gun. No sense having them wind up languishing in an evidence locker. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Funny you should mention the Sig P227 TacOps. It's no secret that a Sig P227 is on my 2017 planned acquisitions list. Unfortunately, the P227 is not a MA-compliant gun so it's not as easy as visiting my favorite local dealer and ordering one.

On April Fools Day, I was in Little Rhody taking my good wife to the airport. I stopped on the way home at a RI dealer having a grand reopening celebration complete with tons of food and Sig factory reps present with all their goodies. I had a nice conversation with one of the Reps. He was pushing the P227 TacOps on me like there was no tomorrow. I guess he couldn't tell how old and poor I am (or that I was from MA).

He was good enough to explain in detail all the reasons why I should buy the TacOps P227 over the standard Nitron version (my other two all-metal Sigs are Nitron-finished). He made a very strong case but I remained unconvinced. The truth is that I'll be damn lucky if I can find and afford the base Nitron model.

But it's good to know he wasn't just blowing smoke up my pants leg that day. If I win the lottery between now and then, I'll certainly reconsider.

Should the opportunity arise TTSH definitely get one. Well worth the tariff!

Oh, and thanks for the reminder on the ignore list function! Your right! No more smarmy fanboy taking a dump in the threads! Best regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

That extra $400.00 is a whole lot of money to me... 50% more than the base model. The cosmetics I can live without and the 14-round magazine capacity does me no good whatsoever in moonbat MA... although the tuning is another matter and would, of course, be nice to have (especially the reset part as was demo'd to me repeatedly).

But back to the topic of this thread: Are the all-metal Sigs the real 4th or 5th generation S&W pistols... the logical successors to our beloved 3rd Gens? They are in my case. Maybe not technically so, but that's what I'm buying (those and all-metal CZ's) in new guns in lieu of brand new 4th or 5th Gen Smith & Wessons which I can't seem to find anywhere.

Sounds cool...... but my 30 year old W. German 220 will do cloverleafs at 50ft (17yds)

Went to look and wow that's a lot of coin for 2 more rounds.....(regular mag)....... I guess you could open or back up carry the 14 round mag. It's what I do with my PC Shorty-9...... 15re 59xx mag w/ collar as backup.

Got my first Sig in the late 80s ( the W Ger. 220) and have added a few 220,245 and 229.... all from the late 80s to mid-90s.

To the question of the next gen metal Smiths...... I like older Sigs, Beretta's and recently got my first CZ...... all are good guns. IMO the Sigs and Beretta's are are all slightly bigger and bulkier than there Smith counterparts.

3913 vs 239 or 92 Type M

6906 vs 228 or 92 Compact

915 vs 226 or 92/M9

I can only speak for myself, of course, but some of us Massachusetts subjects are very intent on getting our full 10 rounds worth in our new (post-hi-cap magazine ban) guns!

Considering the numbers of 10mm pistols sold by Glock,
which they currently make 5 different models,
I'd say it numbers in the hundreds of thousands,
instead of a few hundred people.
RIA has also sold tens of thousands of 1911-style 10mm's
since they started building them in 2011.

And there are currently 19 other Manufacturer's
including SIGSAUER that make 10mm offerings.
So obviously S&W is missing the boat, as usual.
Nothing new about that.

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Marlin & Calico Specialist

I only have a fullsize 9mm sample to compare among, but you're right... the P226 and 92FS are bulkier than the 915 that I own. The CZ 75 is a more graceful design, possibly more slim than the 915, but with a longer slide and barrel.

On another note... now that the Beretta 92 has received it's notice from the US military, how long before we see a Beretta 1911? That seems to be everyone's last stand for the metal guns.

Absolutely love my new CZ 75BD... ...but having a tough time with my new CZ 75D Compact PCR. I may post a separate thread on that in the future.

Oh, please no. Say it isn't so. Nothing wrong with 1911's but I think there are more than enough manufacturers already in that game. One local dealer's whole pistol case is practically all 1911's. Just what he needs... one or two more.

I have considered this question and believe that there are three generations of S&W metal frame DA/SA semiauto pistols all of which evolved from the first Model 39. Yes there are SA or DA variants, but the evolution can be clearly seen. We don't consider the.35 caliber gun as V1, or the M41 as a generation, why consider polymer pistols as such.

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Made it, Ma! Top of the world!