I have a new to me 3913 that shoots 4" low at 20 ft when firing unsupported with a two-handed grip. However when shooting supported from a rest the point of impact is right on the point of aim. I am an experienced shooter and shoot competently with a number of pistols and am able to achieve decent groups with the 3913 (after some practice). I get the same results using 115, 124, and 147 gr factory loads.

You will see that I am new to this forum but I've been scanning it for a while because of this pistol and there are many posts about this pistol shooting low. There are many suggestions, from filing down the front sight to shooting heavier bullets to learning how to shoot. I think that I've addressed all of these issues except that I still can't shoot this pistol.

Is there some training or technique I need to master in order to shoot this pistol well? Is there some gunsmithing that could improve things? (This pistol definitely has a heavy trigger.)

Again, the pistol shoots at point of aim from a rest, my groups are reasonably tight shooting unsupported, and I get the same results with different bullet weights.

Any advice will be deeply appreciated.

Change the stocks, the Hogues have a bit of a curved back strap to them and may fit your hand better.

I did this change to my S&W 1006 and started shooting better.

4" low at 20 feet is usually a shooter induced condition, particularly if 115gr bullets and 147gr bullets hit in the same spot. Check your stocks, check your grip, check your technique.

Sorry, forgot to mention that this is one of the first things I did. Definitely an improvement to feel of the pistol.

Aiming with a 6 O'clock hold or center of mass?....
All of my S&W's are calibrated for a COM hold.

Just a thought....

Randy

Do other shooters experience the same change when using the firearm?

Are you shooting over on Banana River Dr?

Did you ask Steve to help you out?

If it shoots to POA off a rest and low from an unsupported hold there is only one possible cause. That is the person holding the pistol is "pushing off". If you don't believe have someone mix a snap cap or two in your magazine, as soon as you get a non firing round you'll have a very clear illustration of what you are doing.

The solution is to actually apply some principles taught in various forms of meditation. Specifically you concentrate on achieving a perfect state of relaxation in mind and body at the instant the pistol fires.

I do my shooting at the Police Hall of Fame range near Titusville. I've asked two of the range safety officers to shoot the pistol and one grouped right at the point of aim and one grouped right where I do. Go figure.

(I quit shooting at the Banana River Drive range when he required shooters to buy his ammunition and buy and use his targets. I just won't tolerate that, even though I could ride my bike to that range from my home.)

I completely agree that the mismatch between POI from a rest vs me shooting is something I am doing and figuring that out is my main goal in this post. Can you be a little more detailed about what "pushing off" is? I have zero trouble with any other pistols including a 6906 and multiple 1911s. I suspect that I am reacting to something about this pistol and causing the problem. The trouble is that I don't know what I am reacting to and what I am doing.

It's not really you so much as it's just your inability with that particular trigger. I'd suggest you take the gun to a competent smith and have the trigger adjusted to make it manageable for YOU. Snapping in with caps or on an empty chamber will definitely show you what you are doing wrong. Having a trigger you can work with will make correcting the problem much easier.

I have a parallel post on changing the sights on this pistol at this S&W Forum thread and this information popped up.
A gunsmith I know (who almost exclusively works on 1911s) did observe to me that the white dots on my pistol were at different heights relative to the tops of the front post and the rear sight. I couldn't tell myself.

I've posted that when shooting from a rest the POI is the same as POA but... I can't remember if I was using the dots or conventional sight alignment with the tops of the blade/sight. I grew up shooting with unenhanced black sights and if I had to bet I'd say that I was using traditional sight alignment (no dots) for my bench shooting. I definitely try to use conventional sight alignment on my unsupported shooting which is why the fuzzy sight picture is so troubling. Sounds like another test run back to the range for me.

I'm surprised no one has posted this handy chart yet:

Just an idea for you. It worked wonders for both of my students yesterday. Get a cadence going with your trigger pull. Say to yourself as you pull the trigger, "one thousand one, one thousand two". A slow, steady pull like that will help prevent you from slapping or yanking the trigger. When you get that slow steady pull, and your shots are centered again, you can increase the speed of the cadence, but keep saying "one thousand one, one thousand two". And if you are on point of aim when supported, don't change anything on the gun. You've already proven to yourself that it's not the gun. I doubt that they suddenly put bad sights on just your 3913!

Oh, and here's another take on the "correction chart"...

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I fired your post off to a friend who is a retired LEO and was a department armorer. He suggested you change your recoil spring. He said a weak recoil spring can increase felt recoil and cause some shooters to grasp their guns tighter, throwing their shots off.

Lay a quarter on your slide and dryfire the pistol. If the quarter falls off, put the quarter in a big coffee can and try again. Aim and shoot normal speed. By the time the can gets full of quarters, you should have stopped moving the gun just before it fires.
There is a superb shooter in our club who had only fired custom single-action triggers until he bought a striker-fired M&P to shoot IDPA/SSP. It is driving him nuts that he keeps pulling low with the long trigger pull, and he throws a few shots low on every stage, even though he knows what he is doing wrong. It takes a LOT of practice to pull a long trigger through without moving the gun or snatching at the trigger.

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My hunch is that the release point for the trigger on your 3913 is closer to the grip frame than other pistols you shoot. As a result you have trained yourself to start to control the recoil of a handgun at the point where your other handguns release the trigger. End result is you have what can best be described as an Anticipation Flinch.

Good news is that it's not that difficult to cure yourself from this problem. BTW, I am speaking based on over 40 years of controlling a tendency to flinch. One additional tip I'll give you is to double up on your hearing protection.

Step One is to RELAX. Step Two is to SLOW DOWN. Step Three is to pay attention to Step One and Step Two while pressing the trigger through the release point. BTW, forget about controlling muzzle flip at this point, just let it rise. Once you've started hitting at the POA then slowly increase your rate of fire until you are back to a normal split time. I can also tell you that opening up your range session by doing this for 1 or two magazines can really help in retaining this learned technique.

One final tip is that, if your don't have one, you should get yourself a good double action revolver like the model 15 or model 67. Because I have found that there is NOTHING that trains good trigger skills like shooting a double action revolver properly. BTW, the proper technique is to pull the trigger in one single and complete motion. While this is a skill that is a bit difficult to master the benefit is that you'll be able to shoot well with any trigger made. I will also note that "staging" the trigger on a DA revolver is a cheat and while it does make it easier to get good accuracy it will also prevent you from properly mastering a double action trigger.

PS; the reason I recommend a model 15 or 67 is that both are 38 special revolvers with a tapered barrel and feature the finest balance of any revolver ever made.

This reflects my experience almost exactly. I've found that when I shoot a DAO 3rd Gen, I have to pay a lot of attention to the release point or I pull my rounds low. If I do as you suggest and use the right weight ammo, I don't have that problem.

My only quibble is that i prefer a Model 10 with a tapered barrel for double action practice. For some reason, I shoot revolvers with fixed rear sights better.

The exception to that is my Model 18-3, which is perfect for beginners. Almost no recoil, extremely accurate, and once someone masters that double action trigger, they're ready for .38 Spcl.

Again, that's my limited experience.

I think that the OP will find that if he takes his time to get used to the trigger pull, his hits will improve.

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Many thanks to Scooter and RV4 and others for some insightful notes. I'll give these ideas a try. (BTW: I already double up on hearing protection. When I entered the Army in '76 they were just starting to issue hearing protection for ranges but it was a spotty thing and I'm paying for it now.)

I'm already doing some of these things as I've found I have to pay a LOT more attention to the trigger squeeze on this pistol because of its length. My first chore, mastered through excruciating care with the trigger, was to get groups tight enough to even know where the centroid of the group was.

I own two Model 60s (3" & 5") as well as a K22 and I'll try the double action trick with one of those.

I don't think I'm bothered by recoil. I also recently purchased a new Kimber Micro 9 which has a sharp recoil and I have no trouble with it, nor multiple 1911s.

Thanks much for the ideas and also the problem chart. I've seen that before but not recently and will definitely focus to be sure I'm not pushing the pistol.

Just aim higher. Kentuckians have been using this method for centuries.

John

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My experience with my 3914...

How to measure height of front sight?

...but heavier bullets shoot higher than lighter bullets. I put some 165 grain bullets in my 9mm and was shooting the upper left corner of a box filled with paper at about 10 yards. My first shots sailed right over it.

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Have exactly the same issue with my 3914 and my 6904 both group well but both shoot low. Don't have that issue with my Shorty .40, 4013 TSW on the same basic frame nor with my little CS9.

I added an adjustable Novak rear sight on my 908 so I could 'fine tune' the POI for my shooting style.

Is your left wrist locked when you squeeze the trigger. To be shooting low and left is a sign of a wrist turning issue. Some sized grips will turn on you in your hands if they don't quite fit you right as well.

Thumbs forward or thumbs locked down? Full arm extension or bent slightly in a push/pull presentation?

Thumbs locked down and a push/pull style will help with the downward wrist rotation problem.