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Old 07-18-2017, 08:20 PM
EBSF1911 EBSF1911 is offline
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Default S&W auto's

Years ago I had friends on the sheriffs dept. that introduced me to S&W autos, they all had many varieties of 3rd. Gens. I have since been through many phase of guns and have come full circle and I am rediscovering S&W autos. Now for my question, am I missing something on S&W's web site? Or are the only all metal autos the 1911's/mod 41/victory? Has S&W let Glock influence them to the point that we will never see a full line of all metal S&W autos ever again?
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:24 PM
FUBAR-M1A FUBAR-M1A is offline
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Yes. It costs too much to make them and they can't compete with the pricing of plastic guns. Glock is offering guns to departments for a little over $300 but it probably costs S&W more than that to make a 3rd Gen gun. CHP and West Virginia SP are the only two departments that S&W was still making them for, that I know of, & now CHP is switching to M&Ps. CHP paid $683 for the 4006TSW. THey could buy 2 M&Ps or Glock for that.
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Old 07-18-2017, 11:04 PM
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I am quoting an old post, (from here,) that if S&W was to make a 645 today, (kinda an old post,) it would cost $1,200. I know that a 645 is a 2nd Gen, but I couldn't find anything cost wise today, what a 3rd Gen would be. I was feeling kinda bad about paying + $500.00 to replace a 645 I sold years ago. Composite frames are way cheaper to produce and the monetary return is better. Sad, but that's the way it is, and will be.
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Old 07-18-2017, 11:29 PM
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I'm surprised S&W doesn't do some kind of limited 3rd gen production similar to what Sig does with the P220. Those sell at a price point over $1000. Obviously the market isn't there for a full run of all variations, but I think a business case could be made for a small selection that included a variant or 2 in each caliber.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:51 AM
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The Sigs are 1000 guns and the Smiths would sell . but wow the machine work that goes into one . I like the older Smiths and when a good one comes I get it . They keep going up .
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:49 AM
Blackbarry Blackbarry is offline
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Modern composites/plastics are wonderful materials. We shouldn't disparage them. But in a gun they trade off carry weight against "kick" when a round is fired. Once again we re-learn there is no such thing as a free lunch. However, with CNC milling there may be a market for upscale precision fabrication of a "Performance Center" all metal offering. I'm thinking Korth level of quality coming in at the $1200+/- price point.

Just a thought......
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:15 AM
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The "Performance Center" as it was originally, located in an airplane hanger behind the main factory, staffed with talented gunsmiths making semi custom versions of standard production guns, no longer exists.

The 3rd gen guns wont be coming back. That much is clear. And I would surmise that were a "classic" 3rd gen pistol to be produced, it would probably pale in comparison to the original. Much like the so called "classic revolver" line.

The good news is that LNIB examples of the 3rd gen pistols are still readily available on the auction boards. While prices are steadily increasing, they can still be found for not too much money. Especially considering what you are getting.

So find which models you want to aquire and get them while the inventory is not limited and the price is not limiting. Great pistols! Regards 18DAI
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:08 AM
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I hate to jump into a topic that has been hashed out over and over again on this board, but the idea that S&W would need to sell a metal pistol at >$1k to make a profit is just ludicrous. The difference in manufacturing cost between a plastic frame and an aluminum frame is not going to be more than $50-100. Has Smith charged any of the agencies anything close to $1k for the limited production runs they've done in the past 10 years?

But the firearms market has never been more competitive than it is right now, so even $50 makes a difference. And when it comes down to it, the customers just *want* plastic right now and they *don't want* TDA, slide-mounted safeties, etc. They want 43 interchangeable grips, rails, etc.

I predict metal-frame guns will come back in fashion eventually. Maybe even TDA, but probably not. Until then, what's the point of worrying? Plenty of used guns out there.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MWater View Post
The difference in manufacturing cost between a plastic frame and an aluminum frame is not going to be more than $50-100.
The problem is $50-100 at the manufacturer level is $200-400 at the retail level. Everyone along the way still makes their margin, they don't cut it just because the wholesale price goes up.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CBus660R View Post
I'm surprised S&W doesn't do some kind of limited 3rd gen production similar to what Sig does with the P220. Those sell at a price point over $1000. Obviously the market isn't there for a full run of all variations, but I think a business case could be made for a small selection that included a variant or 2 in each caliber.
What is the difference between a "price" and a "price point"?
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:27 PM
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What is the difference between a "price" and a "price point"?
More digits to the left of the decimal.

John
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBSF1911 View Post
Now for my question, am I missing something on S&W's web site? Or are the only all metal autos the 1911's/mod 41/victory? Has S&W let Glock influence them to the point that we will never see a full line of all metal S&W autos ever again?
As you can see from the comments above, you are not missing anything on the S&W website. All metal auto-pistols are mostly a thing of the past. They won't be back anytime soon. Will they never come back? That's an unknown but I am not holding my breath.

The Glock influence is universal.
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:59 PM
EBSF1911 EBSF1911 is offline
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Default It's a shame

It's a shame that they don't offer something. I would venture to say that most of the guys here have an appreciation for 1911's and once you dive into that pool you will eventually be looking over the $1000 price range. Heck after I got 3 more magazines for my 1006 I was over the $1000 mark, so I would pay that much for a new run 3rd. Gen
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
What is the difference between a "price" and a "price point"?
The way I would look at it, price point is when you pick a target MSRP and work back from that dollar figure and see if you can do it for a cost that is profitable.

When you build a product and sell it for what you have to with the MSRP being down the list of importance in the design phase, then that's just the price.

S&W revolvers have a price and it is what it is. Certain accommodations have been made to make them less expensive to manufacture through the years, but there haven't been wholesale changes to keep the price down either (the biggest issue had nothing to do with cost or retail, the infernal, I mean internal lock). Then Ruger, Taurus, etc... use S&W prices as their price point when designing and building their revolvers.

A business case for the 3rd Gen guns obviously involves looking at the existing market (Sig P220 as an example) to get the price point and working back to see if they can be built at a low enough cost to be a profitable proposition. So far they have decided they can't. Could be they view the Sig as too expensive and the target MSRP for a potential 3rd gen re-issue needs to be significantly cheaper.

Going back to my first post in this thread, I think that if S&W did a re-issue of a few models, like the 4506 and 1006, they could sell enough to make a decent profit per unit, but I doubt the case is there for anything close to the full lineup we had 20 years ago.

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Old 07-19-2017, 07:08 PM
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Default If I remember correctly

If I remember correctly around 1989 when I bought my first 4506 new they were at the deep end of the pool for prices of production autos. When I got on my revolver kick around 2000 I gave over a $1000 each for two performance center 629 hunters. People will pay for good quality firearms, and they will search out someone that will provide them with what they desire. I have one Glock it's ok but it holds no special place in my heart (other than the fact that my wife bought it for my birthday) and I have had more failures with it than any of my antiquated 1911's or my 3rd. Gen. S&W's. a extractor change fixed the Glock. Now you guys have me wanting a Sig P220/10mm.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:19 PM
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I think there are a couple of things we need to keep in mind. Folks like us are driven mightily by nostalgia and a true passion for these small hand-operated machines. I am talking specifically about an EMOTION that ceases to exist in a for-profit corporation such as S&W.

As for "price, cost and profits", there are other angles we should discuss that we rarely seem to discuss...

First item: the bulk of cost isn't in the materials, it's in the product design, development and mostly in the equipment requires to build them. In this way, S&W -should- be working in an extremely low "cost" environment when we consider that those items already exist and are done & paid for.

However, two things S&W does not currently have is the floor space dedicated to using that equipment (or the same equipment has been repurposed for current items) and S&W greatly lacks the paid talent and experienced labor to build them.

I would say that -MANY- folks active in these pages are a better source for knowledge and experience of 1-2-3rd Gens than MOST of the people who work at S&W currently. And NO, I don't believe that is an exaggeration.

But do you know what we aren't as skilled at? Market research, high production manufacturing and service of same, large contracts and handling of same and running a for-profit corporation.

Those are what keeps the lights on at the plant. Our biggest drive in these pages are based on emotion that almost ceases to exist in Springfield. (and, well, Houlton, Maine.)

I have seen some of the new-old stock 5946 pistols offered at Cabela's and other places. I see a gleaming *NEW* S&W 3rd Gen in a gun case and with a curious "Houlton" address when I have only ever seen "Springfield" on a 3rd Gen and for a moment, my eyes light up as my brain comes to a very fast and mistaken conclusion. No, actually, they are not back.

And then I see the price... all the while knowing that I can still find many great 1-2-3rd Gens on the used market for 40-60% of the price Cabela's has on that new old stock one.

And that's a DAO that really isn't my taste.

Y'know what would be awesome? If a guy like Elon Musk bought S&W. Maybe then you might see some decisions based on dreams, ideas, love and passion (the way many of us think) and less based on corporate accounting.

Just how it occurs to me anyway.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:49 PM
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In an email I received back from Roy Jinks, regarding a clarification of a factory letter I got, He said it perfectly.
"It is important to understand that S&W is not in the business to make collectables and their record keeping on these guns that we are collecting today are not very accurate. The more modern gun records on items we think as collectable are just a source for profit for the company."
Kinda sad, but too true.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:52 PM
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Handguns to police agencies are what keeps the lights on at S&W for the most part. They sell some 1911s, but I'd venture that theirs aren't all the different or better than most others. They sell more than a few AR15's, but again so do a lot of other companies.

Except for the J frames, revolvers are probably not likely a high volume item either.

Which leaves semi auto pistols for LE agencies. Which means that they have to compete with Glock and Sig for the most part. All of which means that polymer frame guns are going to be the vast majority of S&W semi autos.

A lot of gun owners are not "gun people" as we are. They want one or two handguns, probably one, for personal defense. They don't know or much care about the difference between the 3rd Gen guns that we love and the M&P pistols. They do know about price, though.

Despite our best hopes, I think it's unlikely we'll ever see new production 3rd Gen guns.

That being said, it would be nice if S&W would provide support and parts for those of us who know the difference and appreciate the quality of the 3rd Gen guns.

I don't think that's too much to ask, but maybe it is.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:00 PM
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Great thread and enjoyed the truthful posts. Too bad manufacturing costs and final retail prices had to skyrocket so much. Guess the same can be said about many products today. Prices would ease up more slowly on many consumer goods years back but seemed to triple overnight
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:16 PM
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If we consumers were still collectively willing to pay for 3rd gens, S&W would be willing to make them. Fact is, as a whole, we would rather buy the newer composite material guns. As posted above, buy them up while you can.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:48 PM
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I have 20 S&W 3rd Gen Autos (okay, I cheated I included my 645 in there). And, trust me, I ain't lookin' to sell any of them. In fact, the only S&W 3rd Gen Auto that have I sold in the past 7 years was a 6906 to my brother because . . . well, he's my brother and he wanted it.

I bought the vast majority of my 3rd Gens between 2007 and 2009 when prices were much lower than now. I could make some good money selling a few of them, especially my three 10mm pistols. But, like I said, I ain't sellin'. In fact, if I see a S&W 3rd Gen Auto in the condition I like (99% or better) for a price that is not too much over fair, I'm very likely to be a buyer.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:27 PM
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Default I agree

I agree a lot of us here are operating on nostalgia. We are the ones that buy there upper end firearms and help keep the legend alive. I hope that the persuit of ever cheaper guns doesn't destroy any of our iconic firearms companies
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4T5GUY View Post
I am quoting an old post, (from here,) that if S&W was to make a 645 today, (kinda an old post,) it would cost $1,200. I know that a 645 is a 2nd Gen, but I couldn't find anything cost wise today, what a 3rd Gen would be. I was feeling kinda bad about paying + $500.00 to replace a 645 I sold years ago. Composite frames are way cheaper to produce and the monetary return is better. Sad, but that's the way it is, and will be.
I would pay $1200 for a new 645. With some modern updates.

Seems like metal framed guns nowadays are a different business proposition than they were years ago. Agencies are going to keep buying M&Ps, Glocks, etc., so metal, hammer fired guns have become niche products, with premium price tags.

Sigs P2XXs sell for a grand.

Wilson Combat Berettas sell for a grand.

So why not a new line of premium guns based on Smith 3rd gen architecture?

Maybe you don't call them 5906s, 4506s, 645s, etc... but a new sub brand with premium features that the Gray Guns/Wilson Combat crowd is looking for: match grade barrels, melonite finish, g10 grips, super-duper sights, etc. Scandium frame?

I know I'd get my wallet out.
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:06 AM
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Agree they're great guns.
If you have a dire need for a new one, this may be your last chance.
Cabela's have new 5946s on sale for $599.99.

In stock at my local store.
Same gun used by RCMP Mounties:

Sergeant Vickers used his 5946 to kill the terrorist who attacked Parliament
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:13 PM
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Just bought this one NIB 03/96 mfg per SW cust serv email
Makes two now the other is a 4006. Im starting to get an attraction to the 3g line.



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Old 07-25-2017, 12:14 PM
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I carried a 4006 for several years when I began my career and hated the thing. I carried a Glock 22 when I was part-time and was forced to carry the Smith when I went full-time. Compared of the Glock it was extremely heavy, not as accurate, and a pain in the butt to take apart and reassemble for a new cop. Unfortunately, that distaste for one gun carried over into other second and third Gens as well. That a friend of mine at the department, who was also my mentor and a Smith & Wesson armorer, turned me on to other guns like to 5906, 908, is 645. He recently started selling them off after he retired and now I a newfound interest in them. It's funny how we don't buy things when we could and they're cheaper, only to have a newfound interest in them when they're no longer made and as accessible! Sigh, such is life.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:55 PM
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Okay, I can see how you have evolved over time and perhaps you know this (I cannot gauge your level of familiarity here...) but you do realize that there exists -NO- handgun on planet Earth that is more similar to a 4006 in nearly every possible way as a 5906, right?

Almost literally the exact same handgun... in a different chambering.
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:25 PM
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Yup, which is why I didn't care for either at the time. I like them all now, which was the point. First purchase in the list is a 3913/908 or similar.
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:17 PM
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Okay, gotcha.
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:38 PM
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So, help me understand this....Sig and CZ still make all steel, DA/SA handguns at a profitable price point and S&W cannot? What are they doing that S&W isn't willing to do?
There is certainly a demand for this type of sidearm....Sig, CZ and clones sell a LOT of them....S&W could as well. They could dominate this market again if they felt like it.....Wish they would feel like it again!
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:48 PM
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It's not that S&W "cannot", it's that S&W has elected not to make them anymore. It isn't about what other gunmakers are doing, it is about what S&W has decided they wish to do.

It truly is no more complicated or mysterious than that.

Building the 3rd Gen takes some off-site suppliers and vendors, S&W doesn't carve every single piece from a chunk of metal. It also takes floor space for the tooling that has since been reappropriated for othet work. It takes a staff of employees trained on those particular pistols.

S&W has decided that those reasons and the costs associated with them don't add up to potential sales of new production older technology.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:23 PM
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It's not that S&W "cannot", it's that S&W has elected not to make them anymore. It isn't about what other gunmakers are doing, it is about what S&W has decided they wish to do.

It truly is no more complicated or mysterious than that.

Building the 3rd Gen takes some off-site suppliers and vendors, S&W doesn't carve every single piece from a chunk of metal. It also takes floor space for the tooling that has since been reappropriated for othet work. It takes a staff of employees trained on those particular pistols.

S&W has decided that those reasons and the costs associated with them don't add up to potential sales of new production older technology.
Great points.

I think someone alluded to this before...

If Smith doesn't ever want to make them again... sell the rights and the equipment to someone who does. A small-scale operation that can fully devote the resources to building a niche product, for a discerning consumer who wants a top-notch DA/SA piece.

Ok. Back to reality now...
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:58 PM
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Default I will continue to search for them.....

I'm going to spend more time in pawn shops search for 'old metal guns' that nobody wants anymore.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:18 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Let me comment upon a couple of things brought up. First off, no manufacturing firm keeps machine lines dedicated to one product-unless they have to in order to meet demand. Product demand is forecast a year or more in advance and production for those various items scheduled.

So, the thought that there's machinery in Springfield-or anywhere else- gathering dust because someone isn't making that item anymore is a myth. Machinery currently making stuff that sells/has been ordered would have to be taken out of production, retooled and retooled again at the end of that limited run. Lost production costs money-which customers pay for in added costs for the various products. It's not just frames, it's all those itty bitty parts that fit inside the frames & slides too.

Now then, for an actual example: back in 2006 we needed to purchase sufficient third generation handguns (4006) to get everyone using the same firearm. We had 2/3 of our unit using the 1006, the rest using the 4006. I don't recall the exact price for the 4006, but we were able to re-equip everyone with M&P40s for less money than it would have cost for the 4006's. Even after another expansion of personnel.

Bad move? NO! The M&P is a better combat gun than either of the TDA guns. Sorry if you don't agree, but we're dealing in results, not pride of ownership. The carpenter may of may not have stylistic wants about their hammer. The important thing is how well it drives nails and ease of maintenance.

BTW: yes, I've got some third generation pieces, including my 1006. They stay locked up.

Almost forgot, several folks mentioned "cost". One gent noted several things that affect cost. Let me add to the list: Taxes, wages and benefits, maintenance, payments on loans for machinery & tooling, set asides for various exceptional expenses, capital expenditures, lost income (what the company could make if the money being spent was invested, today that's probably non-existent), advertising (the LGS doesn't buy those full page ads), dividends to stockholders, utilities ........the list goes on-forgot one! PROFIT (yes, it's a cost). Remember the factory gets maybe 30-35% of MSRP when they sell the items to the distributor.

Last edited by WR Moore; 07-25-2017 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
If Smith doesn't ever want to make them again... sell the rights and the equipment to someone who does. A small-scale operation that can fully devote the resources to building a niche product, for a discerning consumer who wants a top-notch DA/SA piece.
I'm pretty sure that if someone really wanted to make a carbon copy of a third gen, nobody is going to stop them. Daewoo did a good enough job on their derivative.

I'm always hoping a Turkish company like MKEK will do it, but I doubt it. Not a lot of overlap between the crowd that pines for third gens and the crowd willing to buy guns from Turkey, I think.

Always good to remind people that you *can* run out and buy a brand new alternate-reality third gen from Lionheart. Have to settle for aluminum frame, though.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:31 PM
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I'm often reminded of exactly how long plastic lasts...
as I just gave my kids the toys I played with 40 years ago...
granted, it was a different formula back then, but
plastic does degrade with time, heat, and weather conditions.
Some of it has lasted quite well, but most is brittle and easily broken.
Nothing you can do will stop the degradation like you can with a steel gun.

Steel, if kept clean and oiled, will last a whole lot longer
than any plastic ever will. I've got perfectly functional
pistols and rifles from the 1920's & 1930's.
Also have a few Bakelite-type plastic items from that same
period...which are all brittle as heck & you have to treat
them more carefully than fine china.

Remember Tupperware from the 70's??
Try using some of it now.

For that matter, try finding a Gen 1 Glock that
still works and is showing no signs of degradation.

I'll take my All Steel guns, thank you very much
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:30 AM
Texas40 Texas40 is offline
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The polymer used in pistol frames and the plastics to make toys are no where near the same materials.

I seem to be developing a liking for the line myself have two now 4006 and 4516-2
I see them 3rdGens) alot at shows always check um out
looking for gems like the 4516 it was nib at a small lgs locally.



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  #38  
Old 07-26-2017, 07:51 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI View Post
The "Performance Center" as it was originally, located in an airplane hanger behind the main factory, staffed with talented gunsmiths making semi custom versions of standard production guns, no longer exists.

The 3rd gen guns wont be coming back. That much is clear. And I would surmise that were a "classic" 3rd gen pistol to be produced, it would probably pale in comparison to the original. Much like the so called "classic revolver" line.

The good news is that LNIB examples of the 3rd gen pistols are still readily available on the auction boards. While prices are steadily increasing, they can still be found for not too much money. Especially considering what you are getting.

So find which models you want to aquire and get them while the inventory is not limited and the price is not limiting. Great pistols! Regards 18DAI
Nuff said......................................
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:40 AM
CBus660R CBus660R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
Now then, for an actual example: back in 2006 we needed to purchase sufficient third generation handguns (4006) to get everyone using the same firearm. We had 2/3 of our unit using the 1006, the rest using the 4006. I don't recall the exact price for the 4006, but we were able to re-equip everyone with M&P40s for less money than it would have cost for the 4006's. Even after another expansion of personnel.

Bad move? NO! The M&P is a better combat gun than either of the TDA guns. Sorry if you don't agree, but we're dealing in results, not pride of ownership. The carpenter may of may not have stylistic wants about their hammer. The important thing is how well it drives nails and ease of maintenance.
I'm not a fan of plastic striker fired guns, but I'll say this, the Springfield XD40 is own certainly works and feels good in my hand. As a tool, it's top notch, just not much to look at when compared to my metal guns, be they my 1911s or Smith 2nd and 3rd gens I own. And that's what it comes down to for us folks who are posting here. The all metal traditional DA/SA guns just "look right". Certainly people will bring up other reasons for liking a traditional pistol, but they're secondary IMHO.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:05 AM
VTHokiesDuckHunter VTHokiesDuckHunter is offline
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Price is not the real issue. Manufacturing space and workers may be part of the problem at S&W for the issue of not making 3rd gens anymore.

Certainly since SIG (P220, P239, others); Beretta, CZ and others make TDA metal guns at competitive prices shows it can be done.

Not to mention S&W, Ruger and others making nice 1911's at competitive prices. And Browning still making Hi-Powers.

S&W simply doubled down to try to retake the LEO and general public market back from Glock. And they've dedicated their focus, R&D and manufacturing capabilities to that end for any pistols that are not 1911's, .22's or revolvers.

For that matter - look at the .22 market. Ruger's new Mark IV's are awesome metal guns as are the Buck Marks. From $400-$600.

It could definitely be done. I just don't think S&W is going there.

Colt is back with their new .357 revolver though. Kimber is making revolvers (unfortunately - not with exposed hammers). Who knows, maybe it could happen!

I'd love to see S&W open a small plant in SC and introduce some new alloy, scandium and stainless 4th gens.

A 4th gen Scandium framed 3913 at $1200 and I'd buy 3 of them!
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:27 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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There's something I forgot to mention above...we did get to T&E the M&P40 prior to adoption. Going in, the attitude was "Another crappy plastic pistol." After trials, EVERYONE was enthusiastic about the change.

Following transitional training a very large number of our personnel went out and paid their own money for a personal firearm. That had never happened before. Not everyone bought the .40, but it was still an impressive vote of confidence.

VT, I hate to break it to you, but price does matter to a slew of folks. Yes, some folks are still making their old designs. While several types of firearms (1911, etc) have die hard fans, it'll be interesting to see how long those designs (other than icons) persist. All those makers have new designs on the market and the new US service pistol isn't metal framed.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:33 AM
MattyD380 MattyD380 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTHokiesDuckHunter View Post
A 4th gen Scandium framed 3913 at $1200 and I'd buy 3 of them!
Yes. Well, I couldn't afford 3. But sign me up for 1.

I think Smith (or someone) could make money with something like this. Unfortunately, it seems like there are easier ways to make a buck in the firearms industry... like PC editions of M&P guns and expensive 1911s.
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Old 07-28-2017, 04:33 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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By the way, while people are commenting about how certain other companies are able to make metal frame handguns at a profit, let's look at one.

The basic design of the Sig double action pistols was developed by Sweitzer Industrie Geschellshaft in the 1970s. They realized they had a possible winner, but Swiss law forbid export of the firearm/design. So, they did a joint venture with JP Sauer & Sohn to form Sig-Sauer.

Now, Sig and Sauer are, or are part of massive conglomerates, firearms are part of the mix. I'm not sure what the joint venture arrangements are, but neither parent is going to go broke if their joint venture isn't sufficiently profitable. Obviously, neither is their joint venture.

Not the same place S&W is. They're diversifying, but they don't have the massive backing that Sig-Sauer has. If they don't make money, they die.
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Old 07-28-2017, 04:56 PM
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I wonder if there's also a marketing aspect to it. The M&P is the successor to the third-gen and is supposedly superior. The marketing folks will ask how can we sell an "inferior" gun that costs more? The situations where this does happen, e.g. 1911, Beretta 92, Sig 226, CZ-75, etc, perhaps have more historical appeal than the third-gen does (for now).

Plus Smith is devoting all of their resources to a) CCW (the Shield is their bread and butter at this point) and b) trying to recapture the LE market, both of which pretty much rule out metal-framed guns.
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Old 07-28-2017, 05:16 PM
Sevens Sevens is offline
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The M&P does nothing for me simply because I can't fall in love with Tupperware guns. I have nothing against the M&P (except that it is striker fired plastic) and I actually find it halfway decent looking and feels good in the hand, two big places where it beats the "Standard" (Glock, obviously)

I only say all that above to make it clear that I have no end-game if it sounds like I am attempting to "defend" the M&P line -- I am not trying to do that.

If you must pick a product of S&W to BLAME for the eventual death of the 3rd Gen, the M&P is absolutely NOT your target. The M&P has kept the lights on and noise coming out of Springfield.

If you have to pick the S&W that killed the 3rd Gen, it's going to be any/all of the 1911 pistols.

And yeah, I like a S&W 1911 also, that's for sure, but there's a hundred choices in the bloated 1911 market. If S&W had just skipped the whole 1911 deal, I think we'd have a much better chance to see continued 3rd Gen production.
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Old 08-02-2017, 03:59 PM
MattyD380 MattyD380 is offline
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Just in case anyone's interested... there's an unfired 5904 for sale on GB right now. Looks like it's kinda flying under the radar.

Carpe diem...
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Old 08-05-2017, 11:49 AM
FUBAR-M1A FUBAR-M1A is offline
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There are quite a few trade-in 5906TSW, 5904, 6906 & 6904 on there right now. Even mix of 1 mag & no mag. Most are older & all have quite a bit of finish wear but aren't priced too bad.
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:33 AM
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Default S&W SS Semi-Auto 659

To add an interesting fact to this discussion: The Roy Jinks letter says my stainless steel 2nd gen S&W 659 shipped from the factory in April 1983 with an MSRP of $449.00. That computes to $1,110.69 in todays dollars. Photos attached.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:39 PM
EBSF1911 EBSF1911 is offline
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Default 3rd. Gen prices???😀🙁

Yeah, price is subjective. I recently gave 950$ for my gently used 1006 I don't remember how much I paid for my first one around 1990 (brand new). But in today's dollars I gave 1200$ for a new DW Razorback 10mm. (Getting DW's galling issues in the bargain), so I would gladly pay in the 1200/1300$ range for a brand new 10xx any model, but since I can't I will live with what I have to pay to get back a gun that I regret getting rid of in my youth. Actually I am happier with this one, my original one showed signs of galling on the barrel lug where it mates with the frame, my new one is just missing the adjustable sights, I happen to like those bulletproof looking sights
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