My recent interest in S&W DA/SA .45s has led me to discover a LNIB KSP marked 4566 for sale on GB. Looks like an awesome piece. And I suppose it's kinda neat because I live in Kentucky. Looks like it's going to be expensive... though I might consider unloading some other guns to make room for it.

Anyway...

I was looking into the history of these "unissued KSP 4566s" and I found some interesting info. Allegedly, a significant percentage of the guns were tested, found to be "unreliable" and a decision was made to dump the Smiths and issue Glocks.

(KY) Legislation tries to resolve issue of new handguns for state police | The High Road

Anybody have any insight on what happened? Did Smith put out lemons? Or were their other factors in play? I mean, Smith 3rd gen .45s have somewhat of a "halo" for unquestioned reliability (i.e., feeding empty cases), so it's kind of surprising to hear that.

Anyway...

May or may not decide to purchase this one, but I figured it would make for an interesting discussion nonetheless.

Other factors in play. IIRC the officers union wanted Glocks. And also, again IIRC, the Union head retired shortly after they went to Glocks. Any guess who he went to work for after retiring?

That 4566TSW will probably go for close to $1K. I think the last couple of those on GB went for around that.

That is my favorite 4566 configuration. Spurless hammer, rail free, decock only and Novak night sights.

Bid high! Good luck! Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Nice! Thanks for the info. I figured there was more to the story. Sounds like the guy sold his soul to the black plastic gods.

And I totally agree--that configuration is ideal: you get the TSW goodness and the decock only with no rail. We'll see how the auction goes...

Thanks.

I bought one of those in 2010 at a Louisville gun show for $725 NIB. The dealer had purchased several from the state auction years before. It really was an outstanding pistol but, as I'm not really a 45 guy, I passed it along to a friend that was.

For an unbiased evaluation of the S&W 4566 and a few other 3rd gen models, check out the writings of "DocGKR".

He has used several pistols as duty guns during his years on the job. The 4566 is one he particularly likes and recommends regularly, along with the HK USP45.

He posts on the Tactical Forums and a few other boards. He is also a talented ballistics expert. Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Any actual facts to back that up or just more hearsay?

That's what he did. Because the first priority is looks! I know that if I get into a gun fight the first thing I want my attacker to see is how soulful my gun is. I want him to tell me how nice the blue is. Forget actual self defense, it's all about soul and looks

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Looks are aren't the only aspect of not-preferring "black plastic." Shootability (for me) and safety are my biggest reasons for preferring a DA/SA over poly/striker guns. And when it comes to Smith 3rd gens, reliability is usually unquestioned; thus I'm inclined to give these 4566s a pass, sans detailed information on the aforementioned situation.

Subjectively, I also prefer the heft of all metal guns. Partially because it lends to more control while shooting, and partially because... I just like it. In all fairness, I think Glocks are fine guns, they're just not for me...

...and not justbecause they're soulless. Well, except for the Glock 36. It's the only Glock with character. It's like the Keith Richards of Glocks... it kinda does it's own thing... and you wonder how it's still around after all these years.

MattyD380, dont feed the troll. Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I have no issues with the 3rd gens. My issue is with the hearsay and the whole idea that cops shouldn't give up those guns because they look so nice.

Troll? Let's see some of those "sell out" facts

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

My old Chief used to say "never let the truth get in the way of a good story". He was a jolly ol guy.

__________________
Sure you did

And mine use to say "Empty cans make the most noise." Seems he was correct.

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

__________________
Sure you did

"I was looking into the history of these "unissued KSP 4566s" and I found some interesting info. Allegedly, a significant percentage of the guns were tested, found to be "unreliable" and a decision was made to dump the Smiths and issue Glocks."

3rd Gen S&W unreliable. That's hilarious.

"Anybody have any insight on what happened? Did Smith put out lemons? Or were their other factors in play? I mean, Smith 3rd gen .45s have somewhat of a "halo" for unquestioned reliability (i.e., feeding empty cases), so it's kind of surprising to hear that".

I prefer to call it Bet your Life reliability.

Do some Google searches. Found plenty of complaints in a few min. It's an object made by man. Law of large numbers and all that!!!!!!

Also I posted a few days ago problems cops had. Failures to chamber, eject....etc..

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Google complaints for Glocks. Google complaints for Colt. See where I'm going?

I didn't see anywhere anyone said a duty pistol should be carried based on looks. They implied THEY like 3rd gens for the looks.

As someone who HAS carried a 3rd gen FOR DUTY, I can say I prefer it over MOST plastic framed guns.

If you do a site search, you can find all my complaints about the M & P 45(s) I carried for duty. Every single one had problems. We finally switched out for Glocks. I wouldn't dog pile on someone that decided to carry one for self defense......that's THEIR decision.

Folks are expressing their OPINIONS about guns....just like you are expressing your OPINION about other guns.

You recently stated you carry a Glock 19 for self defense.....I'm sure we could start a separate thread about why that's a bad idea (in reality it isn't because it is your choice) and plenty of folks would cite "facts" to support their opinion.

Your last point was probably the best "It's an object made by man. Law of large numbers and all that!!!!!!" Now that I can agree with you on. Every mechanism CAN and WILL fail at some point.

At the end of the day, you can Google and twist numbers, complaints, first person accounts, etc to support whatever point you want. Governments and politicians do it everyday.

__________________
Un-Reconstructed Southerner

Sorry but I'll trust my own personal experience over what passes for fact on the internet. Last I heard, you can post anything on google.

I would say the guess that the pistol in question WILL go for close to or more than $1000. I say that because I paid $1650 for a WVSP 4566 a few years ago. As with anything in this world, as long as you get it in front of the right person "the ceiling is the roof" when it comes to price. There are folks right here on this board that make a hobby of charting the recent sale prices of 3rd gennies. Recently, a friend of mine just bought a non railed 4566TSW that had been retired from our agency. He paid $400 but in discussions with members here, the consensus is it could probably go for more than that were he to get it in front of the right person.

__________________
Un-Reconstructed Southerner

Absolutely. And my point exactly. All service grade guns are about the same in use and reliability


To me that has to do with looks/feel.... emotional response. If I was a cop I wouldn't care what it was. Having owned majority of the duty pistols I can safely say that I simply don't care as long as it's reliable..... which all service pistols are.

Yep we'll documented. I'm aware. Not dog piling but when throwing out statements like .... sellout..... gotta have some backup. Most of the time it's emotions. I don't like what you picked so you must be a sellout


Yep! Know of 4th gen G19 issues and I don't buy any. Everything else is user error. If there were actual issues I'd WANT someone to tell me instead of saying...oh that's a nice one



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Don't think I would carry the 4566tsw as a CC, because of weight alone, but if you want a very reliable, easy to shoot and nearly maintenance free handgun it's a keeper. I have one I bought used, and it was not handle with kit gloves. It has never failed to shoot, eject and chamber anything I have put in it. Will parts break on it someday? More than likely, like any other firearm. Until then I will enjoy shooting another one of S&W's better ideas. YMMV.

Great points. No manmade object is infallible--and neither are 3rd Gen .45s.

Nevertheless, 3rd gen guns have earned a (well deserved, in my opinion) reputation for being very reliable. In case anyone hasn't noticed, that's pretty much the consensus on forums, Youtube, folks I've talked at Gunshows, steel matches, etc. And while I can't say I've carried any of these guns in an LE capacity... in my limited experience that "reliability halo" has proven itself true (to me):

I've had two Sig P245s and a Beretta 8045, none of which were 100% reliable. To be fair, once I changed to P220c mags, one P245 seemed to be just fine. But once I got my 645, it just seemed that the feeding setup (in terms of feed angle, bullet height, etc.) was simply more "fool proof" than other designs--i.e., the P245/Beretta/1911 crash the round straight into the feedramp, whereas the Smiths have the round canted up, toward the chamber.

Now, I'm no engineer... but that seems like a no brainer to me: point the bullet toward the hole you want it to go in.

Anyway...

Given that context, it came as a surprise to read about a batch of so-called "lemon" .45s coming from Smith. Obviously, it's not impossible. Every company puts out a bad batch sometimes. But it's not something you usually hear as part of the conversation on 3rd gens. So I figured it was worth discussing.

Plus... I don't wanna spend a fortune on a lemon.

I carried a 4506 for years as a duty gun and found it to be accurate, reliable and easy to shoot.

HOWEVER it was not maintenance free. When shooters had issues it was almost always found to be due to lack of maintenance. The guns could be run dirty but they absolutely could not be run dry. Part of this could be because of tight fitting and part could be because the gun is all stainless and tends to gall if not lubed.

Given the hot and dry climate in Southern California those of us who worked the field found we had to break down and relube every month OR go to some sort of grease based lube. Even then I still field stripped, wiped down and relubed every month.

Man even if I carried a plastc fantastic I'd be breaking down and lubing weekly.

Nice score OP. Back in 2008 or so I had a line on one of those for $565. I passed because two years prior I had bought a 4566 Melonite so I figured I didn't need another one.

If I could turn back time lol.

When I said "nearly maintenance free" I meant parts breakdown. Of course it must be lubed. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I bought this one three years ago because it was a TSW with no rail, spurless hammer, decock only and night sights. It has everything I want and functions perfectly. Just a typical S&W 3rd Gen.

Attached Images

S&W 4566TSW KSP 4.jpg (37.0 KB, 125 views)

It sure would have been nice if S&W had not put the legal boilerplate about the decocking lever on the slide. Those kinds of things are one of the reasons that I don't care for most of Ruger's offerings...

For the most part I'll agree. However some of the small plastic parts, the decocker and mag safety plungers, do wear and I had to have mine replaced after 4 1/2 years and about the 10K round mark.

The main structural parts are pretty solid but I did see one cracked frame. An instructor's gun with about 45k rounds downrange.

Man that's a nice looking piece.

Just bagged a KSP / S&W 4566TSW, never issued / never fired, new in box with everything it came with.

Questions:

Has anyone determined exactly how many of these were actually delivered to Kentucky State Police?

Also, after they supposedly under performed during agency testing, why didn't KSP return them to S&W?

Thanks!

I dunno, nobody seems to know for sure. I still have 00300, and used to own 00456 (I think it was, have to look back to be certain). Any other KSP 4566TSW's on board? They are pretty sweet.

According to the Louisville Courier-Journal article referenced by link in the first post, 1200.

The trigger play spring on my 4566 broke. I didn't even realize it because it kept right on working. I just noticed the click that develops.

Google Image Result for https://www.usacarry.com/forums/attachments/general-firearm-discussion/16672d1492489817-glock-vs-dog-glock-dog.jpg

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

__________________
CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Yes, I read that too. But, if a state government agency took delivery of 1200 handguns, and found them to be defective, why weren't they repaired, replaced, or returned for refund? I sold emergency equipment to all levels of government for thirty years. Any major purchase contract would have contained a performance clause, as well as a repair / replace / refund clause.

I became Chief in December 1988, and early 1989 we transitioned to S&W 5906 9mm pistols and then added the 5903' s as the department grew. Several years later one pistol was returned to S&W for repair, and they replaced the frame. That was the one and only problem we had with them. Around 2002 we traded them for 4566 models. I retired in 2004 and the new chief traded them for Glocks. I was told he traded them for Glocks with night sights, not because they had any problems with the S&W's. I admit that I'm old school, but I thought it was stupid to trade S&W's which had two safety devices for Glock's with a safety on the trigger!

Did the new Chief take a job with Glock shortly after retiring?

I ask, as that's the story in Kentucky. Not a chief, but the KSP Trooper's union rep who pushed for changeover from S&W to Glock.

To date, the most solid story line goes as follows:
After ten years of service, a few of KSP's S&W model 1076-NS 10mm semi-autos showed some metal fatigue. S&W offered a one-for-one exchange on new S&W 4566TSW chambered in .45 ACP. Reportedly, 1200 new S&W pistols arrived and 114 were selected for evaluation. While I have yet to locate an official document, here's what has been reported:

"Of the 1,200 guns acquired in the trade, Kentucky State Police ran 114 of them through a battery of tests last summer. It appears there was about a 15 or 16 percent failure rate and that there were some stoppages." Undocumented

Also, according to a state police memo, an internal survey of nine state police officers ranging from trooper to executive security staff -- performed months after the trade -- found the guns ranked last out of nine weapons they tested. Hmm... Nine officers out of 1200 surveyed.

So, anyone out there have the inside poop?