Do you carry "+1" in your semi-auto?

rwsmith · #**101** 09-12-2017, 10:53 PM

I do now. Circumstances have changed and I change with them.

ruger 22 · #**102** 09-13-2017, 12:05 AM

I carried a BHP for over 40 years and it was what Cooper called 'Condition One'--(Cocked and Locked) with a round in the chamber and 13 in the clip.

nocents · #**103** 09-13-2017, 12:07 AM

the only semi-auto pistols I own are SW 3rd. gens. and HK's....I always carry +1......only because none of those will hold +2

nimbly · #**104** 09-13-2017, 01:47 AM

It's reasonable that a pistol's "magazine capacity" should be its capacity in the pistol or not. Why would they quote a magazine capacity then expect you to not load it to capacity? It would be like saying "This minivan seats 8 people, but you can only put 7 in it, if you're driving". Or "This pickup can haul half a ton, but you should really only put 1/4 ton in it".

With the metallurgy of today, a modern pistol with a quality magazine having this kind of issue is a little hard to swallow. I have never seen it and I am not going to give up a round based on hearsay.

BAM-BAM · #**105** 09-13-2017, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nocents

the only semi-auto pistols I own are SW 3rd. gens. and HK's....I always carry +1......only because none of those will hold +2

Well with a +2 adapter a 6906 can use 17round mec-gar magazines; +1 in the chamber to get you............................ +6

American1776 · #**106** 09-13-2017, 09:24 AM

I always carry +1.

I can see where the instructor got the idea of only loading the magazine and then chambering a round and leaving the mag -1.

I once read that back in the day, some autoloaders were found to be less reliable if you topped off the magazine to full capacity. The S&W model 39 was one such case, and all ISP troopers were ordered to carry the pistol with 7 rounds in the mag, one in the chamber. The Browning Hi-Power also tended to have problems with feeding if the full 13 rounds were put in the mag, so many folks carried the Hi-Power with 12 in the mag and one in the chamber. I also think that some of the Glock 45 models tend to get too 'crowded' in the mag if you load the mag to full capacity, and the magazine may not seat fully. Some people recommend carrying the Glock 45 models with just 12 in the mag instead of the full 13.

All my pistols are good to go with the full magazine, and I think most today are good to go +1

Smoke · #**107** 09-13-2017, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

Naw... too much effort.

Now let's be honest about what I said. I didn't say "It's too much effort" I said it was an awful lot of effort for one round. Then I said I don't bother because it's not worth the effort to get one more round. Especially given I have THIRTY MORE on my belt.

If you're that concerned about the capacity of your sidearm that you think that one more round is going to make a critical difference you need a firearm with greater capacity.

12string · #**108** 09-13-2017, 04:10 PM

All the time no matter what I am carrying

keith44spl · #**109** 09-13-2017, 05:47 PM

When 8 round 1911 magazines became available.....

I just run one into the chamber and go with the seven in the mag.

.

len917 · #**110** 09-13-2017, 06:40 PM

I watched the Outdoor Channel a little while ago where they had a show on Israeli weapons. They do not carry +1. They learn to rack the slide as they draw. The right hand draws, arm extends, and as the arm is extending and the gun being brought to site the target, the left hand grips the slide as the right hand extends to rack the slide. They did a time comparison both ways. +1 vs. empty chamber. The empty chamber won because there was no need to flip the safety lever on the +1.
The Israeli's , both military and civilians practice this method because it's safer while walking around in crowds.

Smoke · #**111** 09-13-2017, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by len917

I watched the Outdoor Channel a little while ago where they had a show on Israeli weapons. They do not carry +1. They learn to rack the slide as they draw. The right hand draws, arm extends, and as the arm is extending and the gun being brought to site the target, the left hand grips the slide as the right hand extends to rack the slide. They did a time comparison both ways. +1 vs. empty chamber. The empty chamber won because there was no need to flip the safety lever on the +1.
The Israeli's , both military and civilians practice this method because it's safer while walking around in crowds.

No.

Time to post this again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke

When the Israeli Defense Force was originally formed back in the 40s, they were armed with whatever weapons they, as a nation, could quickly acquire. This meant that their pistols were a mish-mash of different designs. Some single action, some double action, some with safeties, and some without. Many were not drop safe. Many did not have holsters.

They needed one simple method to train a large number of people, many of them inexperienced in the use of arms, regardless of what weapon they had. The result was to carry with the chamber empty and rack on the draw. This method:

1) works regardless of the gun's design (SA, DA, safety, no safety)
2) prevents a non-drop-safe gun from going off if dropped (a real possibility when you just stick it in your waistband because you don't have a holster)
3) avoids the possibility of someone not accustomed to a safety sticking a loaded, cocked, and unlocked single action into their waistband

It is important to note that this method IS A COMPROMISE.

There is no tactical advantage to be gained from carrying this way. In fact there is a tactical disadvantage, because it requires both hands. With a modern firearm, there is no safety advantage to be gained from carrying chamber empty, either. (One possible exception to this is someone trying to shoot you with your own gun, but if you are planning your carry method based on someone stealing your concealed gun from you before you can react, perhaps you should reconsider carrying a gun.)

If you need to use a gun in self defense, you're already behind the curve because:
A) You didn't see the situation coming in time to avoid it.
B) You weren't able to find and take an escape from the situation once it started.
C) You weren't able to control or de-escalate the situation before a gun became your only option.
D) You need a gun RIGHT NOW.
E) Your gun is still in its holster (because you don't draw before you need it, right?)

Why put yourself at a further disadvantage by having that holstered gun unloaded as well?

You are not a member of the IDF. You are not mandated to carry your gun in a less-than-optimal manner. Why would you choose to handicap yourself this way? Why would you carry in a manner that may require more hands than you'll have available? That takes more time to deploy? That precludes the ability to fire from retention? That requires putting the gun out there in a place that's bad for retention?

The Israelis don't carry chamber empty because it's tacti-cool. It was a compromise that gained a bit of needed safety at the cost of tactical advantage. Today, now that they have standardized, modern pistols, many Israelis (like SWAT and Special Forces units) do carry with a loaded chamber.

marinevet · #**112** 09-13-2017, 09:32 PM

Full mag + 1 in the pipe.....always, cocked and locked....

915 · #**113** 09-13-2017, 10:01 PM

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I don't worry a whole lot about it either way and if your gun doesn't cycle properly with one in the chamber and a full magazine there's probably something wrong with it.

And by sometimes I don't, I mean that as in I don't always top off the magazine after chambering a round.

firescout · #**114** 09-14-2017, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke

Now let's be honest about what I said. I didn't say "It's too much effort" I said it was an awful lot of effort for one round. Then I said I don't bother because it's not worth the effort to get one more round. Especially given I have THIRTY MORE on my belt.

If you're that concerned about the capacity of your sidearm that you think that one more round is going to make a critical difference you need a firearm with greater capacity.

Well, here in Calif, virtually all of the semi-auto pistols are limited to 10 round or less magazines, for non-LE persons. So, a Glock 17 becomes a 10+1 pistol. With a pistol that normally uses an 8 round magazine (S&W 3913 and the like), that extra round in the pipe is nice to have. I don't count on being able to reload during an armed encounter, so one should be very confident in their handgun's initial ammo capacity.

I look at it this way: You are leaving on a long road trip through a very rural region. You are fueling up near your home before leaving. Do you fill your vehicle's tank, or just put in 3/4 or 7/8 of a tank?

Smoke · #**115** 09-14-2017, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

Well, here in Calif, virtually all of the semi-auto pistols are limited to 10 round or less magazines, for non-LE persons. So, a Glock 17 becomes a 10+1 pistol. With a pistol that normally uses an 8 round magazine (S&W 3913 and the like), that extra round in the pipe is nice to have. I don't count on being able to reload during an armed encounter, so one should be very confident in their handgun's initial ammo capacity.

I look at it this way: You are leaving on a long road trip through a very rural region. You are fueling up near your home before leaving. Do you fill your vehicle's tank, or just put in 3/4 or 7/8 of a tank?

Again, if it all comes down to one round you picked the wrong gun to begin with

firescout · #**116** 09-14-2017, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by len917

I watched the Outdoor Channel a little while ago where they had a show on Israeli weapons. They do not carry +1. They learn to rack the slide as they draw. The right hand draws, arm extends, and as the arm is extending and the gun being brought to site the target, the left hand grips the slide as the right hand extends to rack the slide. They did a time comparison both ways. +1 vs. empty chamber. The empty chamber won because there was no need to flip the safety lever on the +1.
The Israeli's , both military and civilians practice this method because it's safer while walking around in crowds.

You are missing the point of this thread. It is not about carrying empty chamber vs loaded chamber. It is about carrying with a full magazine and a loaded chamber vs a magazine with one round short (from loading it into the chamber) and a loaded chamber.

N4KVE · #**117** 09-14-2017, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

I look at it this way: You are leaving on a long road trip through a very rural region. You are fueling up near your home before leaving. Do you fill your vehicle's tank, or just put in 3/4 or 7/8 of a tank?

Since I never buy gas with a credit card, & only pay cash, I give the gas station attendant a $20 bill, hoping it fills the tank. But if it only goes to 7/8 of a tank, that's all I'm getting. GARY

firescout · #**118** 09-14-2017, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke

Again, if it all comes down to one round you picked the wrong gun to begin with

Easy for someone to say when you can legally carry a 15-17 round magazine. How is carrying a Glock 17 'picking the wrong gun'?

Walkingwolf · #**119** 09-14-2017, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

I look at it this way: You are leaving on a long road trip through a very rural region. You are fueling up near your home before leaving. Do you fill your vehicle's tank, or just put in 3/4 or 7/8 of a tank?

I lift the hood, and fill the air cleaner, and carburetor with fuel also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N4KVE

Since I never buy gas with a credit card, & only pay cash, I give the gas station attendant a $20 bill, hoping it fills the tank. But if it only goes to 7/8 of a tank, that's all I'm getting. GARY

Just how small is your gas tank, are you talking about a motorcycle?

Walkingwolf · #**120** 09-14-2017, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimbly

It's reasonable that a pistol's "magazine capacity" should be its capacity in the pistol or not. Why would they quote a magazine capacity then expect you to not load it to capacity? It would be like saying "This minivan seats 8 people, but you can only put 7 in it, if you're driving". Or "This pickup can haul half a ton, but you should really only put 1/4 ton in it".

With the metallurgy of toady, a modern pistol with a quality magazine having this kind of issue is a little hard to swallow. I have never seen it and I am not going to give up a round based on hearsay.

Some of the older military surplus 1911 magazines would hold only 7 rounds, but they would not seat unless the slide was to the rear. IOW it was impossible to carry +1.

I pretty much go by the guns manual, or how they market their handgun. Most all of the gun manufacturers market +1 capacity. One company for sure does not.

SOTVEN · #**121** 09-14-2017, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimbly

With the metallurgy of toady, a modern pistol with a quality magazine having this kind of issue is a little hard to swallow. I have never seen it and I am not going to give up a round based on hearsay.

This my friend would be true, if today's pistol frames in general had anything to do with metal. Or their magazine catches too. Oh, and magazines themselves in certain instances. So, when a pistol frame these days may fluctuate in size depending on weather conditions and outside temperature, all could be possible. :-)

SOTVEN · #**122** 09-14-2017, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

Easy for someone to say when you can legally carry a 15-17 round magazine. How is carrying a Glock 17 'picking the wrong gun'?

i think you just answered your own question!!! hahahaha!!! just kidding friend! :-)

SOTVEN · #**123** 09-14-2017, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N4KVE

Since I never buy gas with a credit card, & only pay cash, I give the gas station attendant a $20 bill, hoping it fills the tank. But if it only goes to 7/8 of a tank, that's all I'm getting. GARY

hahahahaha!!!! you are not the onlyone!!! ;-)

SOTVEN · #**124** 09-14-2017, 05:25 PM

about a century ago, most military forces switched from revolvers to pistols, simply because ease of reloading. The pistol since then, remained a "side arm", and I think its safe to assume that "side arm" means secondary, as in "side dish." Throughout the wars that took place around the globe in the years that followed, most battle rifles were refined and made it to our days with magazine capacities of 20 most of the time. Now, keep in mind, that the battle rifle is "THE" primary arm. And shoots twenty!???!! In the war??!!! yet, for some reason, a pistol, still beeing a side arm, has to hold about a box of bullets to be acceptable. If this makes any sense, then I ask where did we go wrong??? lol!! :-)

len917 · #**125** 09-14-2017, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke

No.

Time to post this again

Thanks for the clarification.

Smoke · #**126** 09-14-2017, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

Easy for someone to say when you can legally carry a 15-17 round magazine. How is carrying a Glock 17 'picking the wrong gun'?

Before I say anything else let me clarify that I never said you shouldn't load +1, I said I don't

I'd also like to clarify that I don't waste time loading +1 regardless of what I'm carrying. LC9 (7) 4006 (11) Glock 19 (15) M&P (17). One round isn't going to change the outcome (IMO).

If one more round makes you feel better (because that's all it's going to do) by all means load it up.

jyork08854 · #**127** 09-14-2017, 08:17 PM

One in the chamber in my Shield in my pocket holster. One in chamber in my full size M&P in my nightstand safe. Anything else is "unarmed." After one in the chamber, then top off the magazine. Especially with the Shield, since it only holds 8 rounds.

firescout · #**128** 09-14-2017, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke

...If one more round makes you feel better (because that's all it's going to do) by all means load it up.

I believe there are quite a few people here (participating in this thread) who would disagree with your assessment, especially those with single-column magazine pistols. If the gun is designed or advertised for a +1 capacity, why not use it?

Smoke · #**129** 09-14-2017, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

I believe there are quite a few people here (participating in this thread) who would disagree with your assessment, especially those with single-column magazine pistols. If the gun is designed or advertised for a +1 capacity, why not use it?

As I've stated multiple times I don't use it because to me the effort isn't worth the (potential) reward.

If you want to load +1 knock yourself out.

SATX · #**130** 09-14-2017, 10:10 PM

I have always topped off my semi-auto pistols including Glock and M&P and have never had a problem. I have read on forums that some guns don't like it but I have never had an issue. And if I ever do have an issue, I'll send it in under warranty repair.

Hawker800 · #**131** 09-15-2017, 02:16 AM

I always carry +1. But here's one situation where the BG didn't and the LEO prevailed because of it.
New Mexico Officer Has Only a Split Second to Save His Life | Active Self Protection - YouTube

Smoke · #**132** 09-15-2017, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawker800

I always carry +1. But here's one situation where the BG didn't and the LEO prevailed because of it.
New Mexico Officer Has Only a Split Second to Save His Life | Active Self Protection - YouTube

No, just no. Did you even watch the video?

There is absolutely nothing in this video that indicates that that the badguy even fired a shot much less that he emptied his magazine.

There's also no indication that the cop was carrying +1 although it's likely. What the cop did do was reload once he got back to the car because he had expended some (but not all) of his ammunition.

But I though there wasn't time to reload in a fight

bmcgilvray · #**133** 09-15-2017, 11:37 AM

Topping off with an extra round is not something I am concerned with. Though some "high-capacity" handguns reside here, I choose to tote 1911 guns if I want to carry an automatic. I'm content with a 7-round magazine loaded up with a spare on hand.

URIT · #**134** 09-18-2017, 10:09 AM

The operative word in the OP is "instructor". Instructors are aware that they may need to eat their words in a courtroom some day. There are plenty of knuckleheads out there that could create a dangerous situation by mishandling a weapon, so this might be a conditioned CYA on his part. We still have a choice how we carry. I carry an extra mag and forego the +1 loading gymnastics.

viceunit · #**135** 09-18-2017, 10:29 AM

I have worked for two police departments and have been issued Glock 17, 22 and 23 during various phases of my career. We always carried and trained with full mags without issue.

nimbly · #**136** 09-23-2017, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOTVEN

This my friend would be true, if today's pistol frames in general had anything to do with metal. Or their magazine catches too. Oh, and magazines themselves in certain instances. So, when a pistol frame these days may fluctuate in size depending on weather conditions and outside temperature, all could be possible. :-)

As far as I know the logic behind not carrying a magazine at capacity is the idea that constant, full compression of the spring will weaken it and cause malfunctions. Now, I'm not a smart man, but I am pretty sure that most semi-auto pistols sold today use steel magazine springs.

Hamster65 · #**137** 09-23-2017, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MG34/bar

Back in 1964 when my unit was issued the early M16 rifles with 20 rd mags, we quickly learned that the rifles were marginally reliable when fully loaded (bolt closed on 1st rd, and full 20 rds in the mag) so when we went to Vietnam in July, 1965 (101st Airborne) everyone loaded first rd in the chamber and 19 reds in the mag.
Some weapons are well known to need a "download" in the mag for reliability, such as the Bren Gun (manuals say to load no more than 28 rds in the 30 rd mags) and I still load one down out of habit, as complete reliability is far more important to me that having 11 rds in the handgun rather that 10 rds. YMMV.

Modern magazine springs are far superior to the older versions so, it doesn't have any negative affect to keep them loaded to full capacity. It's repeatedly loading and unloading them that wears them out.
I keep 30 rounds in all my AR mags, all the time. Same goes for my other rifles and pistols. How ever many the magazine is designed to hold, that's how many is in it.
The only gun I don't keep loaded is my shotgun. I used to but, I noticed the shell tubes began to form wrinkles down near the brass after awhile.
Instead, I keep 7 rounds within easy reach and have taught myself (loading 2 at a time), to load all 7 rounds in about 5 seconds.

n c rod · #**138** 09-23-2017, 10:34 PM

Load your magazines 1 less than capacity and insert in mag well with bolt closed then COMPARE the effort to catch with magazines at full capacity. You're choice from personal experience. Not Rocket Science

Hamster65 · #**139** 09-24-2017, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n c rod

Load your magazines 1 less than capacity and insert in mag well with bolt closed then COMPARE the effort to catch with magazines at full capacity. You're choice from personal experience. Not Rocket Science

I think a lot of that has to do with the magazine itself. Take my AR for example. I use Amend2 magazines and with these.......I can lock them into place on a closed bolt, with a full 30 rounds in them with just one finger. My Pmags however, require considerably more effort.
With pistols......anything claiming a capacity of ? + 1, shouldn't have any issues inserting a full mag on a closed bolt.
With my Shield, inserting a full 8 round mag with one already in the chamber takes a little effort but, not much. The 7 round mag however, is damn near impossible to insert when it's full. That and the fact that I hate having "pinky dangle" are the reasons I don't use it.

its_Dale · #**140** 10-18-2017, 01:57 PM

yup. Always chambered and always top off the mag after

Elkins45 · #**141** 10-18-2017, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firescout

Well, here in Calif, virtually all of the semi-auto pistols are limited to 10 round or less magazines, for non-LE persons. So, a Glock 17 becomes a 10+1 pistol. With a pistol that normally uses an 8 round magazine (S&W 3913 and the like), that extra round in the pipe is nice to have. I don't count on being able to reload during an armed encounter, so one should be very confident in their handgun's initial ammo capacity.

I look at it this way: You are leaving on a long road trip through a very rural region. You are fueling up near your home before leaving. Do you fill your vehicle's tank, or just put in 3/4 or 7/8 of a tank?

Not a perfect analogy: there aren't any cars that potentially malfunction because their tanks are full.

Walkingwolf · #**142** 10-18-2017, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkins45

Not a perfect analogy: there aren't any cars that potentially malfunction because their tanks are full.

I believe a full tank is safer than a tank with more space for fumes. The fumes are what actually burns. No such problem with handguns.

nimbly · #**143** 10-19-2017, 01:50 AM

It is the same argument with dry firing. Forgive my faith in modern pistols, but a modern pistol using modern materials should be able to be loaded to capacity and dry fired without issue. A Smith and Wesson isn't made of Soviet pot metal. It is made of American steel, heat-treated and awesome.

its_Dale · #**144** 10-19-2017, 10:31 AM

Imagine you are there sitting in the barber's chair while the place is getting robbed. You can either discretely draw your firearm and conceal it under the bib and cap off rounds, or you can try to somehow draw the firearm and have to use both hands and to loudly "chamber". You can also use a one handed chamber technique but i bet it either chamber method wont be discreet.

Also, not topping off the mag (+1) MAY matter. You never know, it could have been that "last shot" that you could have had and may have needed. you'd never want to regret that. Its not like you need extra space or pouches to hold it.

"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"

99savage308 · #**145** 10-20-2017, 03:23 PM

A semi-auto without a round in the chamber, huh. That's like taking a round out of a revolver.

sigp220.45 · #**146** 10-20-2017, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 99savage308

A semi-auto without a round in the chamber, huh. That's like taking a round out of a revolver.

The question posed in this never ending thread is “do you top off the magazine after chambering a round?”, not do you carry with an empty chamber.

Walkingwolf · #**147** 10-20-2017, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by its_Dale

Imagine you are there sitting in the barber's chair while the place is getting robbed. You can either discretely draw your firearm and conceal it under the bib and cap off rounds, or you can try to somehow draw the firearm and have to use both hands and to loudly "chamber". You can also use a one handed chamber technique but i bet it either chamber method wont be discreet.

Also, not topping off the mag (+1) MAY matter. You never know, it could have been that "last shot" that you could have had and may have needed. you'd never want to regret that. Its not like you need extra space or pouches to hold it.

"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"

This thread was never about an empty chamber, A 1911 topped off still has less capacity than a Glock not topped off of the same size. They also make extended mags for most semi autos, you should consider a 30 round magazine, ya never know...

its_Dale · #**148** 10-20-2017, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

This thread was never about an empty chamber, A 1911 topped off still has less capacity than a Glock not topped off of the same size. They also make extended mags for most semi autos, you should consider a 30 round magazine, ya never know...

I know, thats why I also addressed the topping off of magazines. I was telling other people in the thread that were discussing chambered rounds.